Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?

Related threads:
Offensive lyrics- edit? (54)
(origins) Origins: Free at Last/I Thank God I'm Free at Last (8)
Lyr Req: Give That Nigger Ham (Parker/Woolbright) (23)
Chord Req: Josh White - Run Mona Run (4)
Tune Req: Fiddle tune 'The Patter Roll' (6)
Lyr Req: Oh, Mona (24)
'Coon Songs' Revisited 2014 (8)
'Coon Songs' Your Thoughts About Them (145)
Lyr Req: Run, Nigger, Run (92)
Ethics for Performers (35)
Tune Req: I'd Rather be a Nigger than a Poor White (11)
Singing In Dialect (70)
Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' (74)
Racist songs .... arghhhh! (115)
Minstrel Shows, Part Two (78)
Minstrel Shows (117) (closed)
Advice Please? - use of offensive words in songs (113)
Trad lyrics that are not PC (17)
Are lyrics offensive (69)
Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs??? (73)
Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ? (94)
'Offensive' words in song lyrics (73)
darkeys - offensive term, or not? (49)
Lyr Add: Run, Jimmie, Run (4)


GUEST,josepp 31 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 11 - 08:16 PM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,josepp 31 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler 31 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Nov 11 - 02:42 AM
Paul Burke 01 Nov 11 - 08:18 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Nov 11 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,josepp 01 Nov 11 - 12:07 PM
Azizi 01 Nov 11 - 07:20 PM
Azizi 01 Nov 11 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,josepp 01 Nov 11 - 07:41 PM
Paul Burke 02 Nov 11 - 04:05 AM
Greg F. 02 Nov 11 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,josepp 02 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,josepp 02 Nov 11 - 12:21 PM
MartinRyan 02 Nov 11 - 12:21 PM
Greg F. 02 Nov 11 - 12:38 PM
BTNG 02 Nov 11 - 01:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM
Crowhugger 02 Nov 11 - 04:23 PM
Paul Burke 02 Nov 11 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,josepp 02 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,josepp 02 Nov 11 - 07:16 PM
Crowhugger 02 Nov 11 - 08:07 PM
Crowhugger 02 Nov 11 - 08:08 PM
Azizi 02 Nov 11 - 08:36 PM
Azizi 02 Nov 11 - 08:43 PM
Crowhugger 02 Nov 11 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,josepp 02 Nov 11 - 10:01 PM
Greg F. 02 Nov 11 - 10:18 PM
BTNG 02 Nov 11 - 10:36 PM
BTNG 02 Nov 11 - 10:45 PM
Greg F. 03 Nov 11 - 09:37 AM
Desert Dancer 03 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,josepp 05 Nov 11 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Guest, Hank 07 May 17 - 10:05 PM
GUEST,pauperback 08 May 17 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,pauperback 08 May 17 - 06:34 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM

This should go in the music section since I got the word from a song. The pattyroller was some kind of bogeyman invented by slaveowners to frighten slaves into not escaping--the Pattyroller would come for them if they ran. I doubt most of the slaves believed it but I don't really know.

What I'm interested in is how the word came about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:16 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM

Derived from "patrol"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM

Ah, my first source was crappy. I got it now. Paddy rollers were slave patrols who rounded up runaways.

Anyway, I encounted the word in the song 'Run, Nigger, Run" by the Skillet-Lickers so I was curious.

Oh run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Nigger run nigger flew
Nigger tore his shirt in two

Run run the patty roller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Nigger run, run so fast
Stoved his head in a hornets nest

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Nigger run through the field
Black slick coal and barley heel

Run nigger run the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Some folks say a nigger won't steal
I caught three in my corn field
One has a bushel
And one has a peck
One had a rope and it was hung around his neck

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Oh nigger run and nigger flew
Why in the devil can't a white man chew

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away


Hey Mr. Patty roller don't catch me
Catch that nigger behind that tree

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Nigger run, run so fast
Stoved his head in a hornets nest

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away

Nigger run, run so fast
Nigger, he got away at last

Run nigger run well the pattyroller will get you
Run nigger run well you better get away


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM

"Pattyroller" = "Patroller", an armed guard patrolling the area. Not a bogeyman at all, pure fact I'm afraid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:42 AM

I have always heard the word as nearer in pronunciation to 'paddy-roll', and understood it simply to mean 'patrol'. I seem to recall a note to that effect to a printing of the song in an old Sing or Sing Out magazine from way back in the 1950s.

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:18 AM

was there any point in posting this, except to write nigger as many times as possible?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:24 AM

Paul ~~ The version of this song which I used to sing was called Run, Slave, Run, and did not contain the word 'nigger' at all. I don't think I should have sung it if it had, or even if I had known of the existence of that alternative version.

re my last post, it was in fact, I now recall, nearer to 'padder-roll'.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:07 PM

////was there any point in posting this, except to write nigger as many times as possible?////

Yeah, that's what it was, asshole.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:20 PM

I'll repeat whqt I have written before:

I believe that this forum would at least appear to be more inviting to Black people if the reason/s why this a number of posters on this site choose to fully spell out what is generally referred to as the n word.

At the very least, when this word is fully spelled out in the lyrics to a song, a moderator could publish a statement that this site is aware that many people consider "the n word" to be racially offensive. However, it is being used and fully spelled out on this sie for the historical and folkloric record.

As an African American I chose not to use that word, and I choose not to fully spell out that word in any writing I do. While this forum chooses otherwise, like any choice, there are consequences. And I believe that one of the consequences is the sense that this site is not culturally competent or welcoming of Black people and other People of Color.

Although I rarely post on Mudcat anymore, I still refer people to this site because of its information and examples of children's playground rhymes and other types of folk music. However, in doing so, I want to make my position clear that I have been and continue to be concerned about the lack of formal Mudcat moderator and/or owner comment about the use on this site of what is generally regarded as a derogatory referent for African Americans and other Black people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:28 PM

here's a corrected and expanded paragraph:

I believe that this forum would at least appear to be more inviting to Black people if a moderator or ownder statement were published at the top of a thread which contained that fully spelled out "n word". My suggestion has been and remains that such a statement would indicate that that word was being fully spelled out and explained the reason/s why a number of posters on this site choose to fully spell out that word.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:41 PM

I didn't choose to fully spell out the word. I cut and pasted it from another site and THEY chose to fully spell it out. If they had not, I would have pasted whatever substitute they chose. In personal life, I NEVER use the word which I view as classless and tasteless.

Where others use it, however, and I am quoting them, it is THEY who decided to use that word, not me and I'll be damned if I'm going to clean up their language for them. Let them answer for it and don't kill the messenger.

In this case of this song, which I have a recording of and so can vouch that the lyrics are accurate--I prefer the full spelling. That's the song. Sorry if it's offensive to anyone but that is the song. If we can't deal with it for what it is without it degenerating into stupid comments as "You seem to be enjoying yourself saying it" then not only is this forum not welcoming to people of color, it isn't welcoming to anybody.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:05 AM

Even if you censor it, of bowdlerise it, it's sti;; a pointlessly nasty song. So I ask again: what was the point of giving this shite another airing?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 09:52 AM

Hard to believe that anyone in this day & age isn't familiar with the "slave patrols" authorized by the Slave Codes in all the ante-bellum Southern states, and usually made up of non-slaveholding poor whites, whose purpose was to "enforce" the same Slave Codes & generally terrorize Blacks into compliance by applying "correction" (i.e., whippings, lynchings, etc) to errant slaves as they saw fit.

Also interesting to note that the lyrics, quoted above, are a redneck bowdlerization of an ante-bellum slave song, many variants, excerpt of one version as follows:
--------

Run, ni**er, run, patteroller'll ketch you,
Hit you thirty-nine and swear 'e didn' tech you.

Poor white out in the night
Huntin' for ni**ers with all their might.
They don't always ketch their game
D'way we fool 'em is a shame.

My ole mistress promised me
When she died she'd set me free,
Now d'ole lady's dead an' gone,
Left this ni**er here shellin' corn.

My old master promised me
When he died he'd set me free,
Now he's dead an' gone away
Never'll come back till Judgement day.

Run, ni**er, run, patteroler'll ketch you,
Hit you thirty-nine and swear 'e didn't tech you.

etc.

------------

Obviously, the message & intent of the original song were somewhat different, shall we say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

////Even if you censor it, of bowdlerise it, it's sti;; a pointlessly nasty song. So I ask again: what was the point of giving this shite another airing?/////

Well, we are just SO sorry that we don't meet your standards of good taste. Yes, by all means censor us--it's for our own good after all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:21 PM

While we're at it, let's never again speak of slavery. Let's never again speak of the Japanese-American internment. Never again speak of thievery and murder committed on the American Indians. This is all painful to the people to whom it happened and it should be forgotten and never gain give this shit another airing.

Somehow the white man makes out better in that deal than anyone else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:21 PM

"patty-troller" surely... ;>)>


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:38 PM

Think ol' Jo is off his meds, or posssibly just throwing a tantrum.

Or perhaps he'll post a few kike & sheeny songs for us to enjoy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: BTNG
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 01:00 PM

What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?

the problem with this question is that in seeking an answer online, all roads lead back....to this thread...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM

There are several threads on this song and its variants in mudcat, see especially 39304, Run ------ Run:
Run, ----- Run

Starting a new thread is just trolling, and posting to it without checking "Lyrics ----- Search" in mudcat could be called lazyness.

The Skillet Lickers sang paterrollers, not paddyrollers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:23 PM

BTNG, a different road here.

To everyone who is taking offence at how often nigger appears in the posted lyrics, upthread a ways:

          You got my attention. I'm a part-black Canadian who has been called nigger by people who meant it the old-fashioned way. Given Azizi's remark about unwelcoming-ness to blacks at Mudcat, I feel it is very important for people to realize that hers is one person's point of view. Yours truly feels fully welcome here. Actually I've come across far more misogynist & sexist crud here than racist crud. Both are to be expected in any minimally moderated public forum, and both inform readers about the poster most of all so I just move along having been so informed. May I add: In response to sexist/misogynist crud in my 3D life I'll often say "oink" (literally or in other words) before I mosey on my way. However that is inappropriate behaviour (a.k.a. flaming) on a forum. I liken it being in the park at the top of my street--I don't go up to every overheard pig, not even the ones I know, and say oink; I've decided to choose my times for best effect without public embarrassment (though I confess to having hinted at doing that). But I digress.

          Unlike Azizi, I feel especially welcome at this thread because it discusses a part of my history that British Isles-descended music discussions never can. At least I did feel particularly welcome until I saw someone wanting to censor or warn people off the discussion. I accept that the world including Mudcat are not guaranteed safe places, nor do I think they should be. So I bucked up, shrugged and reminded myself how cool it was to know now what pattyroller meant. I wondered if my great great grandfather was ever muscled by one, and I wondered if I'd ever know details about him. Like his name...

          Now with all that said, oh yes, josepp surely did tell us something about himself by copying and pasting the entire lyrics. Exactly what he told us is a little unclear, like any indirect communication. But maybe along the lines that he is one or more of hasty, thoughtless, provocative. Possibly even racist but I didn't get that feeling. Usually I can smell it but not always in writing.

          I would like to know, did all the "that's too much nigger" people actually read the WHOLE song? If not, wonderful; you self-censored as we are all free to do. Why isn't that enough? This is not a school book, after all. The gist of the song seemed pretty obvious to me from the first line, and then I made a choice to skim through the rest of the song to see if josepp had indeed posted nigger that many times. Yup, he sure did. But alas you can't enforce good manners.

          I'm interested to know how offended people feel about how often I've said nigger in this post and whether you think I should have said the n-word instead. Two things I mean to say by using it:
(1) I'm not fond of euphemisms in this context.
(2) If beleive there is a world of difference between talking about something and calling someone a name to hurt them.

          It being well known to members that Mudcat is a minimally moderated forum, I feel that a suitable [insert offensive word here] filter for one's own computer is more appropriate than warnings on threads.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:50 PM

I did; as posted by josepp it's a nasty white- triumphalist song of hate and threat. The version posted by Greg F was exactly the opposite, though for myself in that context I would have at least redacted the offensive word. We know it's there, even we in the UK, and we know the meaning and the often complex intentions of those using it, both black and white. Perhaps it's a little like the French tutoyer (the use of the familiar 2nd person singular)- a white person should never use it unless given explicit permission by their black interlocutor.

I objected because I know people sing songs like this with full intent and knowledge. A few years ago some friends, who know little about folk music, came across a singaround at a pub on the fringe of one of our seaside folk festivals. At first they were quite taken by the singing. It was only after a few songs that they realised that offensive language was being used in nearly every song. They drank up and left, and later on enquiring (through anti- racist oragnisations) found that this had been a BNP-run session, at a time when they were actively trying to infiltrate British folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM

////a white person should never use it unless given explicit permission by their black interlocutor.////

Oh, come on. The word should never be used on a personal level. But in discussion concerning politically incorrect old-time music, it's absurd to ask permission. In fact, it's downright disingenuous since white people invented the word and are VERY adept at hurling it while hiding behind online anonymity. I get very turned off at whites who try to act like they've never heard the word before.

Moreover, we can't say for certain who wrote this song. Blacks wrote coon songs in the ragtime ear too. Ernest Hogan's "All Coons Like Alike to Me", George Washington Johnson's "The Laughing Coon", Williams & Walker's "My Little Zulu Babe" to name a very few. We can't say "Run, Nigger, Run" might not have been originally written by a black person. The lyrics indicate the possiblity since this person does, in fact, get away. Other lyrics as "Why in the devil can't a white man chew?" and "Mr. Pattyroller, don't catch me..." indicate that the narrator is, in fact, black.

I argued rather heatedly online with a black woman who thought songs like this, movies as "Birth of a Nation" and old Southern ads and signs that relied on highly un-PC images of blacks, old KKK robes and the like should all be destroyed. I told her, I'd buy all that stuff and save it if that was the only way to preserve it. She started telling me how she doesn't want her kids subjected to that stuff. I was flabbergasted. She wants her children ignorant of who they are in this country and what their forebears had to endure so that her children could be called Americans. Sure destroy it all so some white revisionist can come by a hundred years hence and say none of it ever happened, where's the proof? She's doing the Klan's work for them. Needless to say, she would not change her mind. It's all evil and needs to be destroyed.

And that goes for all people of color in this country. I would buy and save every "No Japs Allowed", "Jap Hunting Licenses Sold Here" and "We Don't Serve Japs" sign and store it away if I had to. I would buy every photo taken of the internment, every news clipping and magazine article supporting it--I would buy it all and store it away if that was the only way to prevent some dumbshit from destroying it because it's "evil." What's evil is people who think like that. What are they but PC revisionists?

This song is what it is. And it have valuable cultural contributions to make. I did not know what a patty roller was and evidently neither did others. It's a window into the past and may help some whites to understand why people of color generally have no intention of returning to the "good old days." Those days weren't so good to them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 07:16 PM

The Dreaded Evil Song


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 08:07 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 08:08 PM

Oops, that post above was just me clicking the wrong button.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 08:36 PM

Given Azizi's remark about unwelcoming-ness to blacks at Mudcat, I feel it is very important for people to realize that hers is one person's point of view.
-Crowhugger

Crowhugger, I'm glad that you feel very welcome on Mudcat. I was a very active poster on this site for 5 years until I realized that I could not continue posting here the way I had done. It seemed to me that I had become "the Black spokesperson" here, even when I wrote that I was speaking for myself. I admit that this was largely my fault because 1. I self-identified as an African American female on a forum that had (and I believe still has) very very few other People of Colors

2. I started a number of discussion threads about Black culture/history/current events and 3. I chose to comment on most threads about Black culture/history/current events when asked or when I saw those threads.

3. When people here asked for my opinion as a about some Black current event I usually responded. However, I realized that this role wasn't healthy when I saw that there were some discussions about Black stuff when people would write "I wonder what Azizi thinks about that". That's one of the reasons I knew that I had to either change how often I posted here or stop posting all together.

As to my comment on this thread about the n word:

As indicted by my repeated use of the phrase "I believe", I was speaking for myself and not for all Black people anywhere and everywhere.

Also, I want to clarify that I believe (that phrase again) that these secular slave songs should be preserved, shared (in certain settings for educational reasons), and studied. I recognize that Mudcat is an online resource for such purposes. My position is that visitors to this site who arrive here via search engines such as Google should be notified up front that songs that contain what is generally considered now to be offensive language are presented for their historical and folkloric values.

As to my personal position about the use of what I and some others refer to as "the n word", I'll share a lengthy excerpt that I wrote as a preface to my presentation of numerous text examples of African American Secular Slave Songs on this page of my Cocojams website: http://www.cocojams.com/content/african-american-secular-slave-songs:

Like many African Americans, I grew up knowing very little about the dance songs, work songs, and play songs of enslaved African American Americans. As a teen, and as a young adult and middle aged adult, if someone had asked me whether enslaved African Americans had had dance songs, I probably would have said "no" because such a concept would have appeared to have contradicted the horrors that I had read about slavery and given comfort to the trope about the "happy slaves"...

However, in the beginnings of my sixth decade on this planet, I now recognize the restorative effect dancing has on the body and the spirit. I also now realize that were it not for those social songs work which helped keep the pace, certain repetitive work (such as those associated with sailing and cutting timber) would have been more difficult and dangerous. I also realize that the social songs of enslaved Black people enabled them to comment about their conditions with plausible deniability. And I now realize that without those sometimes light hearted and sometimes bitter songs, my ancestors and the ancestors of many other Americans may not have been able to survive the spirit breaking experiences of chattel slavery.

I still detest the use of the "N word" as a referent for Black people that is found in those plantation songs. Nor do I like the dialectic language found in many of those 19th century Black American songs. I accept that some 19th century African Americans used the "n" word as a referent for themselves while some 19th century African Americans would never even have considered referring to themselves or other Black people using that word. I also accept that some Black people used dialectic language although the dialect in some secular slave songs and minstrel songs probably was exaggerated for one reason or another. I also recognize that times change, and so too do the acceptable and accepted referents & vernacular language. I know that some Black people today believe that there is nothing wrong with their use of the n word, and their fully spelling that word in their writing. Some Black people believe that they can reclaim this word, reducing or completely eliminated its toxicity. Some of those Black people believe tha this word (or its "updated?" form nigga) should be reserved only for the use of Black people. Suffice it to say that I don't believe that the n word can be reclaimed, I don't believe that there is any real difference between the n word and the word "nigga" except that the latter word is more contemporary, and I wish neither word was used by anyone.

However, with regard to African American secular slave songs, I have chosen to "play pass" (Ignore as much as I can) those words to focus on the creativity of those examples, the strength & resiliency of those people who composed them, and the information that those songs might reveal about the lives of people then, and the lives of people now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 08:43 PM

I realized that I made a number of typographical errors on every comment in this thread. I apologize for that.

I could use the excuse that I didn't preview any of these comments because if I did I might not press the submit button. But while that's partly true, the other truth is that I'm just too impatient to preview especially when I want to hurry up and finish with a difficult task-as I consider those comments to be.

Best wishes,

Azizi


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 09:02 PM

Azizi,
Well for better or for worse, 'Zi, now we're BOTH know known (at least by some) to be of colour. And yup I too think Mudcat-land is generally lily-white. And a pretty amusing bunch when they go wringing their hands about a bad word they barely even understand. Anyhow that's my cross to bear...

Confirming something you said: I'll admit that before your self-imposed exile, I was getting to the point where, upon seeing your name listed on a thread, I did I wonder what angle you'd find to talk about black issues. Not that it shouldn't be done, but it's a brave soul who'll try without a certain critical mass.

As for this thread, I think it's wonderfully cool that the white establishment here--who ever thought this folk forum would be called any kind of establishment, ROTFLMAO)--anyhow, cool for this mostly white population to witness the kind of dissenting opinions we hold. Such dissent is often not expected from within a group that may appears monolithic, sometimes not tolerated.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:01 PM

Paul,

There's a fundamental difference between white supremacy and the racist songs of old-time music. The difference is actually striking. Modern white supremacy is entirely race-based. The racism of the time period in question appears to me to be more class-based. White people in Scott Joplin's day may not have liked him because he was black (although I want to make clear that I say this for the sake of argument not as fact) but they could still respect the fact that he was a brilliant composer. After all, a white man taught him how to read music as a boy and made him a classical music aficianado (Joplin loved Wagner). There was this idea that even if a black person is inferior to a white person (and it would be very difficult to believe that a large number, if not the majority, of white Americans didn't feel this way), he or she could still be educated and rise up as high as his or her abilities would permit--although they likely believed it wouldn't be all that high.

White supremacy on the other hand states that if you are black (or anything but white), you are the enemy, you are a mud person, you are subhuman, the spawn of Satan. You must be expelled from the country and if you do not go willingly or if no other nation was willing to take you in then you must be destroyed--unless you are Jewish in which case you must be destroyed from the outset.

When I listen to these old racist songs, as politically incorrect as they can be (if you think "Run, Nigger, Run" is bad, you should hear James Powers's 1898 song "Chin Chin Chinaman",) I hear no xenophobia in these old songs. Arthur Collins may have sung about a hundred coons in a room and every darky had a raglan on (1901) but he never sang one about shipping them coons back to Africa.

Moreover, white ethnicities weren't spared. They sang about micks, wops, spics, limeys, hebes and heinies and sang in pseudo accents of these ethnicities (just listen to Edward M. Favor doing "It Was the Dutch" from 1902 which I doubt you could play for a Dutch person today without offending him or her). Back then, it was seen as a way to defuse tensions by making everybody laugh at each other and at themselves. Humor does, after all, soothe bad feelings.

The songs may have poked fun at all these various ethnicities and might be considered over-the-top today but those songs never doubted that all those peoples were here to stay. So let the BNP try to appropriate these songs, these songs don't belong to them anyway. So don't let them have them. That's what happened with the swastika. It was a very widespread symbol at one time and it meant good luck or fortune. It was seen as beneficent. But we've allowed the white supremacists to claim it for their very own and that's a shame considering in the oldest symbol known to the human race and found all over the world. It's a damned dirty shame.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:18 PM

the problem with this question is that in seeking an answer online, all roads lead back....to this thread..

Amazing, isn't it that the answer to everything isn't available on-line. Hard to believe, but true.

I'd be happy to suggest some BOOKS or PRIMARY SOURCES on the subject - which is where most serious researchers would go in the first instance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: BTNG
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:36 PM

I'm not a serious researcher really...don't pretend to be either


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: BTNG
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 10:45 PM

Oh by the way two books I found of interest, in my limited research are as follows:

Law and Violence in Virginia and the Carolinas. Sally E. Hadden Harvard University Press.(2001)


The Slave Catchers: Enforcement of the Fugitive Salve Law, 1850-1860. Stanley W. Campbell Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. (1970)

our local university library as both.

and a film of interest is:

Unchained Memories - Readings from the Slave Narratives (2002)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 09:37 AM

All good sources. As time permits, you might find these intetresting as well:

Melton A. McLauren's Celia, A Slave, Winthrop Jordan's White over Black, George Frederickson's The Black Image in the White Mind, Joseph Oakes' The Ruling Race, John Blassingame's The Slave Community", Eugene Genovese's Roll, Jordan, Roll, Peter Kolchin's American Slavery, Thomas Morris' Southern Slavery and The Law, Geo. Rawick's From Sunup to Sundown and Franklin & Schweninger Runaway Slaves.

Best regards-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM

Google may only lead here because "pattyroller" may be a less common spelling. I've seen it as "pateroller", which gives several relevant results.

~ Becky in Long Beach


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:31 AM

A photo from 1899 when "coon songs" were extremely popular:

Piano lesson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,Guest, Hank
Date: 07 May 17 - 10:05 PM

Irish immigrant Patty Cohen's detective agency, Wilmington Delaware. Hired young white men(Patty Boys)to chase down, beat, and return, run away slaves to their masters. Armed with "Patty Rollers" (original name for baseball bat) they concentrated around the Maryland/Pennsylvania border. While waiting they practiced striking what was originally called a niggerhead (baseball).

Eventually most counties in Virginia, North and South Carolina had official patty roller men, who were registered at the county court house,carried a badge, and were in charge of "niggerbeatin" in that county. Most were not paid, but were exempt from paying county property taxes.

After the Civil War ended, patty roller men enforced the "sundown" laws many rural towns had for blacks being out of town by. They gathered along the roads leading out of town and wore white sheets and hoods.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 08 May 17 - 12:03 AM

Draft riots in the North
Flag waving in the South


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'?
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 08 May 17 - 06:34 AM

On the other hand hank:
'there is nothing people on the bottom like more than finding someone below them'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 June 7:53 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.