BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,s-j in london
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 08:36 AM

'
"The real star of the show is the Ralph Vaughan Williams Library itself. I am absolutely delighted to be accepting the award on behalf of the library and archive collections."

Those of us who use the library know very well that, although the collection itself is fabulous, Malcolm is the perfect guide to it. Immensely knowledgable, passionately committed, unfailingly helpful and, on top of all that, a nice ordinary chap without the kind of pretensions or academic dryness that someone in his position might be expected to hide behind. He really is the star of the show. '

Agreed, Brian Peters!
:)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 06:11 PM

This is for whoever followed the link to my Bandcamp site promising "traddie melodica bongo fury". I'm afraid that track (a version of House of the Rising Sun) could only be played online for a couple of days; it's now available as an 'extra' if you download the Indigo album.

Some more Knitted Folk, complete with melodica and bongoes, here (tracks 2, 8 and 10).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 02:13 PM

Jon Dudley wrote:-
"The award to Malcolm Taylor is richly deserved. "

Malcolm Taylor & Shirley Collins at the launch of the Take 6 project in 2009 :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyk1zOqAyLg

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 02:11 PM

The Spinners deserve one if anybody does. Three still with us - so get a move on BBC

L in C#

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 01:32 PM

Indeed Jon D, no arguments at all about Malcolm Taylor's award. Being the modest chap that he is, of course he had to say:

"The real star of the show is the Ralph Vaughan Williams Library itself. I am absolutely delighted to be accepting the award on behalf of the library and archive collections."

Those of us who use the library know very well that, although the collection itself is fabulous, Malcolm is the perfect guide to it. Immensely knowledgable, passionately committed, unfailingly helpful and, on top of all that, a nice ordinary chap without the kind of pretensions or academic dryness that someone in his position might be expected to hide behind. He really is the star of the show.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 04:27 AM

I like the Don idea.....

Don Corleone, Don Partridge......Streets of Lon Don

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 11:37 AM

The award to Malcolm Taylor is richly deserved.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 11:27 AM

For what it's worth, I always thought Sonny was a bad Don.....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 10:53 AM

Last year Don O'Van. This year Don MacLean. Dons of dubious folk credentials who last had hits decades ago. Who will be next, following that pattern? Jason Donovan? Don Lang & His Frantic 5? Perhaps Wizz Jones would get the one he deserves if he changed to an anagram of his real name, Raymond : Don Mary Jones . . . ?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Silas
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM

The Dubliners - fair enough (anything is better than Donovan for christs sake), perhaps they will get round to the Spinners before they have to award this honour postumously?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 08:37 AM

From the BBC press anouncement -

One of the other prestigious awards of the night - the Roots Award, awarded in recognition of an outstanding contribution to Folk Music from a Grass Roots level upwards - will be presented to Malcolm Taylor OBE. Malcolm is the Director of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at the English Folk Dance and Song Society. He's receiving the Roots Award for his outstanding contribution for over 30 years of service.

Malcolm Taylor said: "I am surprised and honoured to be receiving this award. The real star of the show is the Ralph Vaughan Williams Library itself. I am absolutely delighted to be accepting the award on behalf of the library and archive collections."

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 03:45 AM

As expected, an award to someone the public will have heard of, but whose "lifetime achievement" seems to be two (admittedly very good) songs.

Well-deserved by the Dubliners though.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 03:33 AM

Long overdue for The Dubliners, Luke Kelly, Ronnie Drew, Ciaron Bourke and Bobby Lynch all gone now.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Reinhard
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 12:40 AM

The lifetime achievement award "to celebrate their contributions to folk and acoustic music" will go to The Dubliners and to Don McLean. Mike Harding announce it yesterday.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:17 PM

Traddie melodica bongo fury: here (last track but one).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:42 AM

Why did it still show '99' when I started , despite a twenty minute gap ?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:40 AM

For no godo reason --100

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:19 AM

Watch this space!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:44 PM

Pip, you're talking my language!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:16 PM

I still want to find a band that plays traditional music and sounds like the MC5, Wooden Shjips, Sun Ra, Crazy Horse, Mr Fox, Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan, The Allman Brothers and Boards of Canada all pulverised in a big old blender. With a singer who sounds like Lizzie Higgins.

A track I finished this evening ended up sounding like Augustus Pablo jamming with the Burundi drummers and Faust, with a singer with a fake American accent. No idea how that happened.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:34 PM

I pull only for my own pleasure..
That is the only reward I require..
Wonder why I feel so drawn to these threads?
:)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Azoic
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:42 PM

A question for everyone-------When all is said and done ,which of the nominees are YOU most pulling for?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Pete Rimmer
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:03 AM

Great to see Kevin's Song doing well.
His recording on Bothy Folk Club CD is quite different,well worth listen.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Mad Spaniel
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:52 AM

The finalists don't reflect the way i voted with the exception of Bellowhead for the live award.
Maybe the voting is so widespread and various that the ones who get the nod for the final four are in the end condensation of this wonderful and varied world we inhabit rather than a reflection of it?
I don't have a conspiracy thoery about it. Just see and hear so many wonderful players that i don't think ANY awards would ever really do it justice

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: LesB
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:32 AM

I am delighted to see our own (Bothy's) Kevin Littlewood being nominated for Best Original Song with 'On Morecambe Bay'.
As previously posted Kevins own version can be see here Youtube
Also it is available on the Bothy residents CD 'Residents Lounge' available here Abicat only £5
I am sure we would all wish him and Christie Moore good luck despite your views on the rights and wrongs of the awards.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 04:12 PM

I jest of course. And besides, we don't do publicity. Nor yet do we crave any higher status than that which the fates bestow on us. Be Glad, as we old heads still mutter as our mantra...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:52 PM

Suibhne –

strictly speaking I suppose you could, but it would be a bit cheeky. If x numbers of my fellow jurors (whoever they are) had voted for Rapunzel & Sedayne along with me, R&S would have made the shortlist and could justifiably proclaim themselves nominees. It's making that shortlist that really counts.

Fuss – what fuss,ahem...?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:43 PM

Does that mean I can use 'Nominated for BBC2 Folk Award' on our publicity now, Raymond?

Otherwise, what's all the fuss about?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:05 PM

I guess if you gather 170 folk enthusiasts together and see what tastes they share, you're likely to get a pretty middle of the road result.

As it happens I nominated Rapunzel & Sedayne in a couple of categories. Clearly nobody else did...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:47 AM

above=me again

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:47 AM

"There are rules, but they are largely procedural. Smooth Ops supplies no guidelines as to who does or does not qualify. Jurists, I'd guess, make commonsense assumptions, and if enough of them voted for The Krar Collective or even Alistair Roberts, they'd be up there. That there are no artists in the final line-up from Spleen's record label is in spite of my most strenuous efforts."

This is about what I'd expect: there's no conspiracy, it's simply that the Awards reflect the rather middle-of-the-road and unadventurous tastes of the panel.

There is no real reason why Rapunzel & Sedayne couldn't be nominated for the awards - they have, after all, received more press in mainstream media than many other nominated acts have in the past. But it's inconceivable. It's not that they're "not on their radar", it's just the jury simply don't like that sort of music.

I mean Alasdair Roberts is an excellent case in point. He's on album number 6, all of them having been covered in both folk press and mainstream press. He's revived a Scots mummers tradition (Galoshins) and toured it; he writes the title-track (Hyperboreans) of an album for Jackie Oates and it receives a nomination. Emily Portman does guest backing vocals on his sixth album; she has received a nomination. To my mind it's clear that Emily Portman or Jim Moray are as far as the jury's taste gets in terms of "edgy".

It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, but I do think it's a shame that the R2 awards always have and always will be so conservative. Maybe it's about time fRoots and Spiral Earth and others teamed up to host a small-scale annual alternative folk awards to celebrate the non-Smashie & Nicey stuff?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:07 AM

Gemma,

Thanks for the link. It's a interesting blog and just the sort of thing we probably need much more of.

Keep us updated on your investigations!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:48 AM

Raymond and Ken - thanks for the vote of confidence for Folk Police stuff! I work on the basis that, as a new label, Folk Police are unlikely to be on the radar enough to be considered for inclusion. And that's ok. And in any case, we're far more Six Music than we are Radio Two...

Meanwhile, I still want to find a band that plays traditional music and sounds like the MC5, Wooden Shjips, Sun Ra, Crazy Horse, Mr Fox, Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan, The Allman Brothers and Boards of Canada all pulverised in a big old blender. With a singer who sounds like Lizzie Higgins.

Any takers?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 04:29 AM

>Raymond - a couple of years ago, on a BBC message board, somebody inadvertently posted SO's guidelines on how to vote. While they certainly didn't make any stipulations as to who or what people should vote for - style, material, record label, nationality or whatever - they did say on what grounds people should vote: specifically, for the folk act/individual/album/etc that had had the most impact, not necessarily the best or their favourite. This obviously creates a bias towards honouring acts that are already successful - or, to put it another way, acts that would already be familiar to R2 listeners. Are those guidelines still in use? If not, what do they ask you to vote for? Or is it more a matter of a tap on the shoulder in a dark corner of C# House... psst, Raymond... it's that time again, know what I mean... you know what to do...<

Pip –

Without giving too much away, ahem (shut that door, pull down that blind...), it's still the case that several categories use the formulation "artist/duo/group making the most impact". Is this an invitation to dispassionately assess an artist's "impact" on the British folk scene? If so, given that Bellowhead have allegedly shifted 60,000 units of Hedonism, there can be no contest for Best Group. But in practice, I suspect, lots of other considerations probably come into play, and not least of these are a jurist's own tastes. If I loathed Bellowhead, they probably wouldn't get my vote. So "impact" , I'd guess, means "impact on me" as well as "impact on the wider folk scene". That's always been my interpretation, at any rate.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Tunesmith
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:20 AM

First, I didn't say blues hasn't got a place in UK folk clubs.
What I did say is that - from Youtube evidence - Sunjay appeared to be specialising in the blues, and that I didn't see why an artist performing almost totally American music should be considered for a British Folk Music award.
A poster pointed out that Martin Simpson plays a lot of American music.
True, but he also plays a lot of British/Celtic music.
If Martin specialised in purely American music, then I wouldn't be happy with him winning British Folk Music awards.
Secondly, I haven't got any connection whatsoever with any of the other artists in that category.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Gemma Kidney
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:12 AM

Hi,
Please read my investigative folk blog on the subject - Are Folk Awards Discriminatory?

On the whole I think that they probably are. But maybe they're not.

Gemma

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 09:08 PM

In retrospect Pip, I'm abit cheesed off with what you said. I would never presume to be as prescrpitive as Tunesmith has been. Censoring a young man's first efforts and saying that it has NO place in English folk clubs.

I speak as an artist who has worked hard at MY vision of folk music for over forty years - no magic formulae for me, weird guitar tunings and odd affectations - just working with the sounds and voices that I found coming out of my mouth. No subsidised World Council tours, highly unpopular TV programmes, subsidised folk festivals, arts council grants - just my vision. An English artist whose point of reference has been English folk clubs.

And this clutz has the effrontery to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. And its me who's got the attitude problem.

I would never ever dream of telling you that you had no place in folk music. I've often bloody felt it as some cultural autistic grabs another piece of the cake - but I wouldn't dream of saying it.

Just assure me of one thing Tunesmith. You are not a relation or close friend of one of the other contestants trying to rally the troops to bugger up the opposition out of sheer malice.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 05:31 PM

Smooth Ops supplies no guidelines as to who does or does not qualify.

Raymond - a couple of years ago, on a BBC message board, somebody inadvertently posted SO's guidelines on how to vote. While they certainly didn't make any stipulations as to who or what people should vote for - style, material, record label, nationality or whatever - they did say on what grounds people should vote: specifically, for the folk act/individual/album/etc that had had the most impact, not necessarily the best or their favourite. This obviously creates a bias towards honouring acts that are already successful - or, to put it another way, acts that would already be familiar to R2 listeners. Are those guidelines still in use? If not, what do they ask you to vote for? Or is it more a matter of a tap on the shoulder in a dark corner of C# House... psst, Raymond... it's that time again, know what I mean... you know what to do...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Banjiman
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 04:27 PM

It's interesting......even those acts that people are using as examples of newbies and outsiders getting into the show are mainly actually signed to pretty big record labels or agents. Even the Will Pounds and Lucy wards of this world (and don't get me wrong I really like both of them, we had Will at our place yesterday) are very well connected..... as are Pilgrim's Way.

I'm really pleased to see acts like these being nominated, I'm just making the point that they already have significant "insider" (just who does get to vote?) contacts.

Incidentally, we had Rapunzel & Sedayne here yesterday as well.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Ken
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 03:18 PM

Oh well, four mentions of the Krar Collective on a Mudcat thread is a bit of a result even if only by way of fallout. And yes, you're right, Mr Spleen was robbed, if I'd have been voting then Rapunzel & sedayne would have been in there. I think the simple answer is that the majority of the jury don't get out enough, maybe because they are an intentionally safe BBC selection. It is run by Radio 2 after all, the home of The Organist Entertains ;-)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 03:05 PM

>I would be interested to see how the BBC define or give guidance on eligible music to their mythical jury of 80/120/150 or whatever the number is. Would any of those people care to break cover and quote the rules, if there are any?<

Right, I'm going out, Fanshawe. Give me some covering fire...

There are rules, but they are largely procedural. Smooth Ops supplies no guidelines as to who does or does not qualify. Jurists, I'd guess, make commonsense assumptions, and if enough of them voted for The Krar Collective or even Alistair Roberts, they'd be up there. That there are no artists in the final line-up from Spleen's record label is in spite of my most strenuous efforts. Biddable, moi? No, I just know what I like.

And now, back in the foxhole...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 02:50 PM

I think the same acts keep on getting nominated because they're consistently good.


Thankyou - at last something sensible!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 02:47 PM

I've been reading Emma Hartley's blog with interest.

In response to the conspiracy theorists' accusations of a stitch-up, SmoothOps spokeswoman Kellie While replied that it's all monitored and signed-off by the BBC. She seems to fail to realise that for many on the folk scene that is not reassuring - the BBC's neglect of folk music, and its closing of more and more folk programmes, is a scandal. Mike Harding's show clearly has a remit of not letting those ghastly folkies drive away the audience, rather than providing something for real folk enthusiasts.

Personally, I don't buy into the conspiracy theory. I think the same acts keep on getting nominated because they're consistently good. Whether the "experts" really have as wide a view of the folk scene, and whether all the deserving performers are on their radar, is another matter, but the fact that quite recent acts such as Pilgrims' Way have got themselves nominated suggest to me that the experts aren't quite as blinkered as some would make out.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 02:38 PM

I'm so pleased though that there is no such thing as the folk police and its all a figment of the imagination of paranoid losers.

Now the folk gestapo.....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 11:23 AM

Getting too weird!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 11:12 AM

But we live in a wonderful multi multi multi multi cultural country now, in which an ever increasing proportion of folks come from, or their parents or their grandparents come from somewhere else - so you are going to get a bit of influence in entrants which upsets the same people who accuse of racism and like to make a fuss - now there's a thing!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Tunesmith
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 10:26 AM

Well, as I said before, the BBC Folk Awards - judging from the nominations - are - almost totally - devoted to artists who play British folk music!
Not Indian, or Australian aboriginal...
And, BTW Guest, surely Welsh is a type of British language.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 10:16 AM

I wrote this earlier on in the thread:

what the awards are representative of, I have no idea

Seems like it's still an open question...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST,Ken
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 10:13 AM

It all depends on how far the original British folk music is diluted!

Where does it say that they are the British Folk Awards, or Awards For British Folk Music, or any such variant? The only reasonable extrapolation that can be made for Folk Awards given by the BBC is that they are awards for all folk music being made within the cachment area of the BBC. If that's their remit, they singularly fail by excluding most of the folk music that can be found in the UK outside the walls of so-called folk clubs.

Are these people i.e. "Juldeh Camara, Seckou Keita. The Krar Collective, Mor Karbasi" playing British folk music?

They are people who live in Britain playing mostly traditional folk music.

I would be interested to see how the BBC define or give guidance on eligible music to their mythical jury of 80/120/150 or whatever the number is. Would any of those people care to break cover and quote the rules, if there are any?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Nominations - 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 10:09 AM

My doctor is the son of a Polish immigrant, and he has sung Polish songs at folk clubs; however, I wouldn't be happy with someone whose repertoire is totally in a foreign language being nominated in the British Folk Music Awards.

what about the welsh?