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BS: List the reasons people disagree

autolycus 22 Nov 11 - 10:00 AM
catspaw49 22 Nov 11 - 10:34 AM
SINSULL 22 Nov 11 - 10:42 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Nov 11 - 10:57 AM
Bill D 22 Nov 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,999 22 Nov 11 - 11:17 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Nov 11 - 12:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM
Bill D 22 Nov 11 - 12:34 PM
autolycus 22 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM
Ed T 22 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 22 Nov 11 - 01:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 01:20 PM
Ed T 22 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM
Ed T 22 Nov 11 - 02:02 PM
Ed T 22 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM
autolycus 22 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,999 22 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Nov 11 - 02:45 PM
gnu 22 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 03:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM
Bill D 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 03:27 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 03:32 PM
Bill D 22 Nov 11 - 03:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM
Ed T 22 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM
autolycus 22 Nov 11 - 05:01 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM
autolycus 22 Nov 11 - 05:26 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 11 - 05:30 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Nov 11 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 22 Nov 11 - 05:46 PM
Ed T 22 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 22 Nov 11 - 05:56 PM
Jim Dixon 22 Nov 11 - 07:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 07:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 08:01 PM
Janie 22 Nov 11 - 09:32 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 11 - 10:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Nov 11 - 10:31 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 11 - 11:53 PM
Don Firth 23 Nov 11 - 12:15 AM
Jim Dixon 23 Nov 11 - 12:56 AM

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Subject: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:00 AM

If possible in a word or phrase, just to get the essence of the idea.

Conflicting interests to promote or defend

Being uninformed.

Different psychology.

Cognitive dissonance.[Aka 'not allowing myself to see etc.]

In thrall to popular stereotypes or concepts.

Inability to read what the other has actually said.

Lack of empathy.



Hopefully [sic] there are others.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:34 AM

Geeziz....Dumb list......I disagree with all of them......go fuck yourself!!!!


Spaw --- had to be said.............


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:42 AM

List it yourself. I have better things to do.


File that under "It's not my job."


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:57 AM

Refusal to consider that he/she might be wrong.
Unlawful possession of a shovel, and the concommitant inability to stop using it, when in the shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:11 AM

They didn't bother to call ME to get the *truth*.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:17 AM

"List the reasons people disagree"

Because if you treat a cold it will last seven days, and if you don't treat a cold it will last half a fortnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:11 PM

Sorry Bruce, my mistake, you're wrong!


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

Disagreeing does not start arguments. People start arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:34 PM

"People start arguments."

And arguing is not **necessarily** bad and/or contentious. I always try to debate an idea, not a personality.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM

Presumably people get into arguments because they disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM

Because the intent is not to discuss, but to give a sermon.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:48 PM

I don't understand an argument and a debate to be the same thing.

"people get into arguments because they disagree."

I do not believe this to be the usual case. Sure there is a difference of opinion, but that is almost never the reason for an argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:03 PM

Because there are people in the world like the poster above.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:20 PM

Thank you for so eloquently illustrating my point.

Obviously the argument that unregistered Guest,Bluesman is trying to start here has nothing to do with a disagreement. It is a personal attack. Note that he does not criticize the post, but the poster. His problem is not with what I am saying but with my very existence.

I guess one could say that the disagreement would be that he thinks that I should not exist and that I would presumably argue that I should exist. At the very least, this should qualify as an existential argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM

Because of the "fuck you, if you have a different opinion" attitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Low blood sugar,
Headaches from cellphones
Trouble at the office
Trouble at home
Not enough sex
Not enough prayer
Too much prayer
Because we have more in common with chimps than bonobos


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM

Hemmoroid flare-up.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:02 PM

Genetics


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM

But, I don't know you and you don't know me
I mean I think I know we're bound to disagree
So, I still don't know you, you still don't know me
But, now we both agree that we disagree

Cause, that's the one thing in common we've got, you see
It's that we both disagree
So, between us we can double our profits, you see
Because we both disagree

DISAGREEMENT by CHUMBAWAMBA


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM

Jack

Just to go back to your beginning

Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

"Disagreeing does not start arguments."

I wasn't saying they do. I wasn't interested in how anything starts.

I was asking what sorts of things lie behind the disagreement, argument or debate.

I'm still puzzling over some of the reasons various people have given so far as reasons for disagreements.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

"Sorry Bruce, my mistake, you're wrong!"

Crank it, John. Just for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:45 PM

because we have convictions that others oppose[ to a lesser to greater extent].

a shame that it so often turns into a slanging match.
i think this occurs when one side begins abuse/personal attacks,but sometimes because a strong but never-the-less civil position is taken personally by the alternative position who then react as though they were actually abused by the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Here's to you
And here's to me
And if, by chance, we disagree,
Fuck you
Here's to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM

All the world's mad g, except for you and me, and sometimes I'm not sure about you!


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:20 PM

Hmmm. I was being a little tongue in cheek as I thought you were.

But taking it very seriously, here goes..

These are generally accepted definitions of "disagree"
    Have or express a different opinion.
    Disapprove of.

Obviously "having different opinion." opinion is not an issue.
It is the expression of such an opinion that is of interest. Or worse still, the expression of disapproval.

If someone expresses a different opinion from the first and no one answers, then again, it is of little interest, if the holder of the original opinion says thank you kindly for the feed back, or less likely, changes their own opinion to match the second, or less likely still talks back and forth with the second until they both come to understand the other and agree to disagree, then we have a discussion.

If one or both take offense and "defend" themselves aggressively we have an argument.

Taking the above definitions as a starting point, and looking at your list, I see some reasons why people would have a difference of opinion. I see reasons why people would express a difference of opinion and in the case of "lack of empathy" I see, perhaps a reason why someone express disapproval.

Obviously the reasons that two or more persons might have a genuine difference of opinion are myriad but I this it all boils down to three things.

Column A
1. Differences in data; People have access to different information.
2. Differences in filters; People filter information through different paradigms for example religion, education, prejudice.
3. Differences in processing; Depending on age, damage and other factors not all human brains process the same way. Differences in empathy can be included here.

The reasons for a disagreement to turn into an argument are basically psychological. Some would say that it has to do with ego, but I think it is more complicated than that. Some of the reasons I would put forth.

Column B

The desire to communicate.
The desire to prosthelytize.
The desire to dominate
monkey reflex
mischief

I may have missed something, I am just now formulating this idea, but I doubt that you can find a disagreement which has been expressed, which I would call, for arguments sake, an argument, that cannot be fully accounted for by factors from column's A & B.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

Just, just, just, because! OK?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

There is an undercurrent of attitude, if not explicit then implied, that 'argument' must mean contentious and combative...etc...

It IS often true, but I wish people could think about the possibility of arguing without rancor.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

My last post was in response to autolycus.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:27 PM

arguing without rancor.

Bill, I would call that discussion.

Though there is obviously a blurry line between "heated discussion" and argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:32 PM

I just looked up the definition. Obviously Bill is using definition 1. and I am using 2.

This can be considered an example of what I called "filters" above.

For the sake of clarity please substitute the word "quarrel" for "argument" in all of my previous statements on this thread.


a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
b. A quarrel; a dispute.
c. Archaic A reason or matter for dispute or contention: "sheath'd their swords for lack of argument" (Shakespeare).


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:49 PM

Ok...agreed. Quarrel, even I interpret as rancorous.

(being an ex-philosopher, I often used 'argument' in the logical form, meaning simply a laying out of a position in a formal way. That use has stuck with me,)


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

Yes, obviously that is the filter of your education vs mine, I learned the word when my mother would tell my sister and me to "stop arguing."


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM

Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not).

Occasionally, they take this "slight" from thread to thread.



""Fingers on their triggers, knee-deep in gore""

Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner, Warren Zevon


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:01 PM

"Column A
"1. Differences in data; People have access to different information.
"2. Differences in filters; People filter information through different paradigms for example religion, education, prejudice.
"3. Differences in processing; Depending on age, damage and other factors not all human brains process the same way. Differences in empathy can be included here."

That an interesting and neat summary of reasons for disagreement.

Of the recent post with a.,b. and.c., it is

"a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate."

that especially interests me, of which the above is neat.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM

No!


(that is in response to the thread title)


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:26 PM

Btw, there is another line of thought going thru this thread, of which ed's post is an example.

"Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not)."

That is the thought about rancour and quarreling and pure personality clash.

It is an aspect of the discussion that I, for one, am not interested in for the purposes of this thread.

I have my hands full digesting the answrs which address the thread header directly.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:30 PM

There are a vast number of reasons people disagree. One could spend hours or even days listing them...but I'm not going to. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:44 PM

1.One of them forgot to take their meds
2.Posting drunk


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:46 PM

"We got a failure to communicate here."


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM

autolycus post is a good example of why, and at sometimes people tend to disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:56 PM

8,838,117!

Oh. Wait. I thought you was askin' fer the number of reasons people disagree, eh?

People disagree with me becoz they are flipheads! And becoz they are wrong!

- Shane


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:21 PM

Seriously, I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:43 PM

"I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe."

The filter of socialization?


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:01 PM

>>>>Btw, there is another line of thought going thru this thread, of which ed's post is an example.

"Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not)."

That is the thought about rancour and quarreling and pure personality clash.

It is an aspect of the discussion that I, for one, am not interested in for the purposes of this thread.

I have my hands full digesting the answrs which address the thread header directly. <<<

I think that pretty much every response on this thread addresses the header directly.
The differences derive from the definitions of the word disagree.   

1. Have or express a different opinion.
2.    Disapprove of.

You were looking for one of the options in 1. Have a different opinion.
While Ed and most of the rest of us were answering in terms of the question referring to either Express and different opinion of Disapprove of.

It goes to reason A 1. different data.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Janie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 09:32 PM

If I understand what you are inquiring about, autolycus, I think your first item is a biggy - conflicting interests to promote or defend.

Where it really gets interesting and complex is the process of each individual in defining their "interest." Most people, (I hope) often disagree with themselves and are aware of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:16 PM

Jim Dixon - "Seriously, I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe."

BINGO!!!!!!!!! Jim, you are so right. Well said! That is the general situation that has been bedeviling most of humanity ever since they dreamed up politics, tribal identities, religion, and culture. They think they know who "the good guys" are, by working from preconceived assumptions based on simplistic notions of some kind of supposed outer identity...and they believe everything they are told by those supposed "good guys". They also look for "bad guys" to blame everything on, condemn, and have wars with. This makes life somewhat dangerous if you are a human being, specially if you're living in the wrong geographical location at the wrong time.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:31 PM

Janie also has and excellent point. If I may add to it I would say, that many people don't know their own interests, but in spite of that, they sometimes quarrel.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:53 PM

Well, they may think they know their interests...but that doesn't mean they really do.

There are so many reasons for people to quarrel that if I had a penny for every single one, I could afford to buy Manhattan.


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:15 AM

But--to decide who the Good Guys are, you must first have a concept of what constitutes the Good.

WHY are the Good Guys Good?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:56 AM

Well, to begin with, the people who take care of you would be the good guys. That would be your parents. Most people have loving parents, and they trust them. Then your parents tell you who the other good guys are. High on the list are the leaders of whatever religion or political party they belong to.

Of course, some of us have parents that we can't fully trust, so it gets complicated....


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