BS: List the reasons people disagree

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:58 PM

A Poet and a Philosopher

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,guest donuel
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:18 PM

Same reason as all disagreements.
Two or more people see the same situation from two distinctly different points of view/profit/advantage/convenience/benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

Classic Python.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:53 PM

M:   Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A:   I told you once.
M:   No you haven't.
A:   Yes I have.
M:   When?
A:    Just now.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A:   I did!
M: You didn't!
A:   I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A:   Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A:   Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A:   Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A:   Yes I did.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A:   Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A:   Yes it is.
M:   No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A:   No it isn't.
M: It is!
A:   It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A:   I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A:   No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A:   Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A:   No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A:   No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A:   It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A:   No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A:   Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A:   Yes it is!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:36 AM

As a therapist [rtd.], the psychological side is interesting to me, is highly potent, and may well be behind many disagreements.

All I mean is, just bear in mind the possibility that what may be behind your disagreement is that some involved may have a psychological block [or an 'interest=to=defend' block] which common sense reasonable discourse may be unable to deal with.

For example, see Cognitive Dissonance on Wiki.

Thus what's soooo obvious to one may not get on the dial of another.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:38 PM

"So the thread was a provocation to others to think a bit about what might really be going on."

Are you sure you want to be bringing up psychology then? I don't think I have ever seen a thread when an individual's psychological motivations were mentions that did not increase the intensity of the quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM

I disagree only when my wife tells me to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 03:30 PM

"I really think that you are over analyzing this."

I'm not seeking to get to the absolute bottom. I think simply that it's useful to be bearing in mind possible reasons for disagreements. If nothing else, such a stance is a way out of arguments that just seem to go round in circles or get repeated ad nauseum.

So the thread was a provocation to others to think a bit about what might really be going on.

"How will you know you are not being toyed with? "

Somewtimes difficult to tell. Each of us has to decide if and when that's happening. At least some trolls get identified reasonably quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 01:17 PM

Perish the thought!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:09 AM

No not for the sake of it!!! Never!!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:39 AM

now I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it, but......

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:31 AM

Yes, that would be bad. If it were to happen to you. I hope you keep an eye on yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:20 AM

.. all we can ever do is rely on our own personal experience and judgement
to evaluate the extent to which we want to engage in a forum row
for our own purposes & amusement;
until we either get bored,
or just too exasperated by petty wilful stupidity and provocation to be bothered to continue...

I'd start to get worried if I ever develop an all consuming abject obsession to continue disagreeing
to the bitter end
just in order to try to get the last word..

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

>>>Perhaps it becomes more heated when the disagreemenrt is elsewhere, e.g. at the psychological or defence-of-an-interest level. <<<

When you are carrying a hammer you see nails everywhere. None of them are quite flush, everything needs a tap or two.

I really think that you are over analyzing this. You can list these reasons until you have filled every hard drive in the galaxy with bits and bytes. But since neither you nor anyone else can diagnose psychological conditions or discern hidden motivations from an Internet quarrel, the reasons for disagreement of each and every participant in each and every Internet quarrel will simply be a Schrodingers cat in a box which, unless you meet with the quarreler and examine them in person, you will never be able to open. That is unless they tell you their reasons, but even then. Its just dot's on a screen. How will you know you are not being toyed with?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

A friend of mine worked at a customer service unit and dealt with complaints. I asked if the job fustrated her, and she replied "at first, but not now." What interested me was what had changed her perspective, so I asked.

""Well, after being frustrated with dealing with some really angry people,I eventually realized that they were not angry with me, but with a situation," she said.   Secondly, she added, most angry people did not seem angry about the current situation, but with what they preceived to be the situation, mostly from past bad experience. I realized that they were bringing baggage forward from the past, and fears and frustration from past experiences, she concluded.

So, with that in mind, I propose that the essesence of some, or possible many, disagreements are seeded in past experiences and situations, some unresolved and most unpleasent, not with the core of the issue, or the disagreement at hand.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:52 AM

Perhaps we should narrow this down a bit and discuss the reasons people disagree with Don Cherry (the Canadian hockey commentator).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:26 AM

Stringsinger

What you say is true when the disagreement is rational [or at least reasonable].

Perhaps it becomes more heated when the disagreemenrt is elsewhere, e.g. at the psychological or defence-of-an-interest level.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 09:11 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 01:35 PM

Disagreement is essential to a functioning democracy. One important reason for disagreement is that certain elements of a proposition might not ring true whereas
maybe the basic idea has merit.

I don't think we have to be disagreeable people to disagree about ideas, even as though
there are those operative behaviors in society.

One might disagree through civil disobedience, rational discourse and challenge though this doesn't have to be acrimonious, the solving of differences more effective when they're not.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 12:37 PM

I don't agree about crabby "old" gits.
I'm not nearly as angry and crabbit as I used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:58 AM

Sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:54 AM

This will come out as from Guest, like the previous post [mine] because all of a sudden the site does not know me and there does not seem to be anywhere to log back in.

Please help

Autolycus

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

Talkboards woiuld get very thin if we constantly simply agreed to differ. I'm happy to say that once differences are explored; not so much as a replacement for the debate.

Some of the reasons I gave originally for disagreement need to be explored.

An obvious and common one is lack of information or straight misinformation. Who is going to agree to differ you think uninformerd/misinformed?

Others include illogicality, failing to understand what the other has said or meant, and a dangerous view, directly or by implication. Same as in last sentence; e.g. if you think the other is illogical, are you really going to be happy to differ?

And where something like cognitive dissonance comes into play, there can be a real stale-mate/endless debating loops.

The time I mentioned 'frustration' was with regard to arguing with people who take things personally when that was not in the intention. I don't, of course, see that as a problem of my ego.

I do find that periodically I have withdrawn from discussion feeling a need to get a perspective on things. Sometimes in doing that that I have been in error. When that has happened [on other boards] i have said so.

I say again, a reading of e.g. Gentlemen's Agreement is a good corrective to not challenging what should be challenged.

Debates, say here, can often go on because one or the other cannot grasp something or other. Or because the subject or point is important. And we don't have an ultimate judge to sort out what is going on.

It can also take a while, if ever, for one or both sides to see that the other is arguing with their own picture of the other rather than the real other.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:58 PM

Indeed.

I usually talk about a subject of debate because the subject itself interests me...and perhaps moves me emotionally as well. I certainly don't talk about it in order to get into fights with other people, and I'm rather taken aback when someone else decides they want to fight with me about it.

As you say, Ed, 'Why not just reply, "You could be right", and move on?' Seems like a pretty good way to defuse the situation.

punkfolkrocker - You're right about "the ageing process
manifesting in increasing antagonism & belligerence in many individuals". It's the "crabby old git" syndrome! ;-D Every civilization that ever existed has taken note of it in one way or another. Then you have the "mouthy young jerk" syndrome at the other extreme...one that is easily found in the Comments section under many Youtube videos...even less polite than the "crabby old git", the Mouthy Young Jerk is fond of hurling foul language, demeaning the other person's sexual organs, etc... While the Crabby Old Git is often embittered by a gradual decline in physical abilities and bodily energy, the Mouthy Young Jerk is burdened by an excessive amount of energy with no available outlet. In short: he's probably sexually frustrated and feels powerless. His reaction to that is to seek a momentary (and illusory) sense of power by viciously denigrating other people, and he knows he can do it safely by way of the Internet, so he goes to ridiculous extremes of toxic behaviour. A confrontation between 2 mutually opposed Mouthy Young Jerks can go on almost indefinitely and consume large amounts of bandwidth. So too, a confrontation between 2 mutually opposed Crabby Old Gits. If all these hostile energies could instead be harnessed to provide electrical power to the world, it might cure our dependence on oil!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:18 PM

When people who seem to be closed-minded, (or contrary-minded) are encountered, a common reaction is to challenge that person's position, opinion, or belief. If the challenge is unsuccessful, why be frustrated with that person and their different opinion?
Why not just move on, rather than moving it up to a dispute, with all the associated discourse?

People are free to disagree, and have different opinions, and it most often has little impact on another person.

Why is there an overwhelming need to convince anyone of anything? Could it be the need to be right? Is real source of the frustration with your ego, not with the other person, or what you see as an incorrect belief?

Why not just reply, "You could be right", and move on? After all, from the other person's perspective, they are also right. What does it matter to you if they hold different opinions or beliefs, on what is right?

A good question to ask is, "What is likelihood that anything I say will have any impact on the other persons opinion?" If the answer is none,or extremely low, why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:24 AM

..not forgetting the adverse side effects of common prescription medications,
in isolation or in combination with alcohol and/or popular illegal narcotics & stimulants...

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:07 AM

Considering how some obsessive and uncompromisingly disagreeable mudcat 'personas'
display character traits and behavioural patterns
that are so reminiscent of very difficult folk we occasionally encounter in the real outside world..

We should be more alert for signs of Undiagnosed Aspergers Syndrome or Sociopathic Personality Disorder...????

Also we should be aware and sympathetic towards inevitable physiological effects of the ageing process
manifesting in increasing antagonism & belligerence in many individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

An observation is a discussion most often degenerates into a disagreement when one or more participant pojects (knowingly or not) that they (or their viewpoints) are superior, act in a condescending manner, or are impolite.

Different participants may see indicators of these from a different perspective.

Any thoughts on this observation?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:13 AM

Oooooo After passing the test... You get testy!

Nah! I'm just farting around.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM

Jack

Oh I see. We've departed debate for manipulative experimentation.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:48 AM

I just wondered if you would take it personally if I attacked what you are saying and not you.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:11 AM

autolycus

I understand what you are saying, put either way. H

However,a fruitful conflict-free discussion requires agreed upon debating rules (which rarely occur) and "good intentions" on both sides throughout the discussion. When something occurs to break thhe discusssion down, emotion can emerge from either, or both sides that contributes to a breakdown in the discussion, postering and eventual disagreement. For example in a discussion, one could react by concluding the other is illogical, or rude. In the same example, the other person may conclude that the other is inflexable or a "know it all" . Both conclusions come from the same emotion, and failure to accurately analyse what actually occured in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:14 AM

Ed

To repeat, with one amendment for clarity

"Just because the other chooses to see their opinions as so them that to attack one is to criticise the other, it doesn't follow that if I criticise their view, that I AM criticising them."

Put that another way, if a person chooses to take a disagreement personally, it doesn't follow that that was the intention of the other. Those who take things personally might like to take that thought on board and consider it.


Jack

Wow, pretty fierce response to a mere allusion to projection.

I'm a Gestalt therapist [rtd.] I have seen projection and its denial at work experientially. In my training as a therapist, we were obliged to know about projection, to see how each of us did it unknowingly. We weren't, of course, very willing to accept what we were doing any such thing[despite having CHOSEN to do the course, something most people don't choose]. Any more than we were willing vis-a-vis other forms of manipulation of the self. We were also highly indignant about any such suggestions.

Thus, incidentally, we didn't merely learn about it theoretically or observe it in others; we had to look at ourselves. The rest of the group as well as the trainers ensured we couldn't bypass such matters.

Perhaps you can specify anything of your expertise [certificates, testimonials not required :-)] in saying what you did rather vaguely and intemperately.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 07:56 AM

"within its elegant simplicity lies a complex set of issues to address.... and the parties involved can become an elusive concept to define."
Conflict (disagreement ) in the workplace

I found the above site informative. It deals with one of the frequent areas where disagreements and conflict evolve, the workplace.


autolycus

It may be comforting to consider oneself somewhat "above contributing to a disagreement". However, at times, through our actions, (logicaly presented or not) we may be contributing to the evolution of a disagrement, but are merely unaware of our contribution? It seems established that people do take many disagreements personally. So, is it not wise to avoid frustration by being alert/sensetive to this and adjust the discussion tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:30 AM

Peer reviewed!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:26 AM

Um...yeah...

And get them notarized too?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:00 AM

My God autolycus, what a steaming heaping pile of crap that was. It was completely nonsensical. What do you mean projection? Are you a psychologist? Please back this up with diplomas and citations of the literature.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:32 AM

"I have found it immensely frustrating discussing with people who think when I argue with something they say, that I'm attacking them as a person. I'm not. I'm just saying e.g. something they've said doesn't fir the facts; or is illogical."

Yeah! I've been frustrated by that too. I realize that ego isn't always the dominant factor in causing people to argue, but I think it is the dominant factor when they do what you're alluding to above and assume that disagreement about the subject under discussion is a personal attack on them.

Their sense of identity is so strongly linked TO their various beliefs and opinions that if you disagree with their belief or opinion, then their sense of identity seems (to them) to be threatened, and they rush to defend it. This is the primary thing, I think, which has triggered a great many religions wars throughout history. (as well as the usual aim of war: material gain).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM

LH

I don't think opinions are essentially about ego for everybody.

In the same way, I distinguish between the person and their actions at times.

I have found it immensely frustrating discussing with people who think when I argue with something they say, that I'm attacking them as a person. I'm not. I'm just saying e.g. something they've said doesn't fir the facts; or is illogical.

I'm playing the board, not the person.

If someone says something that is, for example, incoherent, I can say so, and still hold them in the same regard as before as a person.

When any teacher points out errors to students, they don't [or shouldn't] think any less of the pupils.

Just because the other chooses to see their opinions as so them that to attack one is to criticise the other, it doesn't follow that if I criticise their view, that i'm criticising them.

Projection's terribly tricky.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:46 PM

At a local level, possibly what seems to be the most reasonable candidate likely is the best choice. But, (IMO) on a broader perspective, in a represenatative government (as it seems to exist today) your political choice is there to represent the party under whose banner they stand, not to represent you and you and your communities perspective. So, what they say does not correspond with what they will do.
It is likely wise to use the best of your intelligence, and your gut, to determine which of those courting your vote is the best choice. But, it's best to prepare yourself for a dissapointment, at least at some point.

That likely fits with the title. One reason is different circumstances creates different perspectives.

OK, now back to the reasons why people disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

Okay, let's go back to the thread title.

I think that the main reason people disagree is to strengthen their sense of their own identity. In stating how they differ in an opinion from someone else, they are once again defining who they are...and thus strengthening their sense of self. And their sense of "rightness". This requires someone else to be seen as "wrong", of course. And that leads to judgement and conflict (at one level or another). Hopefully, it will just be verbal conflict. Hopefully, it will remain reasonably polite.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:10 AM

Age is interesting.

One of my original list was 'different psychology'

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

Ones age can have a lot to do with it, what I might have agreed/disagreed with back then might not be the case now. Lifes experiences and maturity changes the way we see things.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:26 AM

There are a number of things to consider when comparing politicians.

Character

Intelligence

Their basic philosophy

Their past record

Their leadership ability

Their ability to work with others

Etc.

The trouble is, though, that politicians nowadays are fish swimming in badly polluted waters. What I mean is, huge financial forces have corrupted and taken over the political parties, the media, and the governments. Any politician of genuinely incorruptible character is going to find it very hard to act honestly within a thoroughly dishonest system that is all around him or her...and will probably not rise high in the pecking order. Or will be blocked by those around him or her.

If you don't play the game by its corrupt rules, how are you going to work your way up through the ranks of power?

Politics has become a game of salesmanship. The parties market a candidate like any other product is marketed, in order to make a sale to the public. That's why their promises when campaigning are seldom fullfilled once in office. It was just a sales job, not a genuine promise.

"Let the buyer beware."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM

Ed

What you say is true of all politicians to some degree. More in the case of some than others.

So how are we to decide which candidates we are more likely to agree with; or who we think are more likely to be up to the job?

If I was a relevant voter, and heard Palin being that unable to make a simple point in her mother tongue, there is no way I'd trust her with government. I'd think she doesn''t have the necessary level of abilities to be in high office.

This is not an anti-P. thing.I'm using Palin merely as representative of a level of ability and of competence.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:41 PM

""I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analyses and examined for reasonableness""

Seems like a waste of time to me. My observation is that what they say publically when seeking votes has little connection to what they do when elected. You are the client, when votes are being sought, but that relationship ends once they are elected-at least until the next election

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:14 PM

""I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analysed and examined for reasonableness.""

And signs of brain activity, though I sometimes think that this might be beyond the capacity of the most delicate detector.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:05 AM

I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analyses and examined for reasonableness.

should have read

I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analysed and examined for reasonableness.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 03:36 AM

Ed

You wrote "Outside of the people who seem not to care, I suspect what seems "reasonable" to one person or group, may not seem as so to another person or group.


which led me to post the Palin piece.

You then wrote "I am not sure if politics (and politicians) and reasonableness can, or should be, logically analysed. I don't think we have the time, or that it would serve a useful purpose?"

I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analyses and examined for reasonableness. What and how politicians think is vital for all of us because what politicians do as a result of what and how they think impacts us all.