BS: List the reasons people disagree

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:42 AM

People disagree because they refuse to listen to my, the voice of truth and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 09:54 AM

More relevant to what?

It would certainly make an interesting thread of its own.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

Because people are not all the same - we have different experiences, different ways of ordering priorities and seeing the world.

The more relevant question is why people treat disagreement as a reason to quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM

LH, On a broader sense most wars and military conflicts involve a disagreement of some form, if one considers that those involved have different perspectives and interests (such as personal gain). The cause of the conflict may be very different from what is believed by, or sold to, the troops and citizens on either side.

The crusades are an interesting example of these complexities. Those involved set aside many of their core religious values (that seemed to be importnat to them) to solve a disagrement over which religion should rule an area. That seems puzzling to me. However, one should never rule out that economic gain is not somewhere underneath such conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:25 AM

>>personally, Jack, I simply do not see disagree and disapprove as synonyms.<<

I didn't make that up I got it from an online dictionary. Yesterday. You may not see it but it is. Clearly there are three subtly different meanings for the word. If you want to have a discussion with someone about the word "disagree". Their definition of the word is just as valid as yours.

>>Some may wish to blur the lines between disagree and disapprove or disrespect. I am one wanting to keep the distinction, and make it clearer.<<

I don't think it is a question about what "some may wish" It is a question about a generally accepted meaning of the word. I respect that you want to discuss the aspects of one specific definition. ie "having a different opinion" But arguing (Bill D's definition) that there is only one definition, if that is what you are doing, could quite possibly lead to the other two definitions. Which are expressing a difference of opinion and/or disapproval.

Please pardon me. I just had some fun with what you said. I will return to serious discussion now.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:56 AM

It is just individuality to have ones own thought, on a planet this size it is obvious that not everyone is going to agree on absolutely everything.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:51 AM

Jani said,

" Where it really gets interesting and complex is the process of each individual in defining their "interest." Most people, (I hope) often disagree with themselves and are aware of it."

To enlarge on that, each individual may or may difine their interests consciously. It may be that they have their position as a consequence of upbringing whereby their interest isn't an interest at all, but, for them, more like the air they breathe, i.e. something just given as a 'fact of life'.

Apart from all that, their interest can be arrived at thru a mixture of some of the reasons I originally suggested, like a particular psychology and a lack of knowledge.


personally, Jack, I simply do not see disagree and disapprove as synonyms.

I can certainly see that people disrespect or experience disrespect. In my book, that is in a somewhat different realm from disagreement.

Some may wish to blur the lines between disagree and disapprove or disrespect. I am one wanting to keep the distinction, and make it clearer.



What has prompted me to start this thread is a very long-standing one of wanting to stand back from any argument, especially the longest-riunning ones, to get a grip on what is really going on.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Monique
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:39 AM

Can't we all in all sum it up by "like me = good" "not like me = bad"?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:16 AM

I wasn't really asking because I don't know, Little Hawk. I'll have more to say on this subject, but it's past my bedtime right now. Tomorrow.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:16 AM

I think, Don, that in most cases everyone thinks pretty much the same thing about their "good guys" in general terms...but not in specific terms of outer labels and outer political issues...just in general terms.

In other words, they think that their "good guys" are dedicated to truth, patriotism, loyalty, courage, duty, honor, honesty, freedom, and all such good stuff.

The people they are fighting ("the bad guys") think all that stuff about their own "good guys" too. Both sides imagine that their own "good guys" are fighting for every kind of good thing, and that the enemy is opposing every kind of good thing.

This is usually quite naive on the part of both sides, although it may also be partly true on both sides...and to differing degrees.

WWII's Germans, for instance, mostly felt that they were fighting for truth, justice, freedom, courage, duty, honor, honesty, patriotism, civilization, etc. That's what their leaders told them!

And the Allied leaders told the Allied troops the same kind of things.

I'm not saying both sides were morally equivalent! They certainly were not. But I think they were both utterly sure that they were standing up for the "good" values against the "evil" values.

In that case, the Germans were far more completely misled than those who were fighting against them, that's all, because they were under a worse system for the most part (Stalinism excepted...I think it was just as bad as Naziism).

People are easily fooled by their own propaganda and culture. They always think they're fighting for the "good" against the "bad" no matter which side they are fighting on.

Didn't the Lakota think they were fighting for the "good"? Didn't Custer's men think the same thing? Each seeing it from their own view, it made sense. But from the enemy's view, it didn't.

In a similar way, the eagle that siezes the fish thinks he's doing a very good thing. The fish thinks he's doing a very bad thing, but if the fish were catching a fly, then the fish would think he was doing a very good thing, wouldn't he? And what would the fly think?

In practical terms...in the real experience of life...the "good guys" are GOOD because we think they are, based on our culture, our history, our politics, and our entire background and memory.

If we are clear-headed enough to think beyond our culture, our history, our politics, and our entire background...THEN we are able to see through propaganda to a higher truth...and THEN we CAN determine who is doing good, who is doing evil, and who is just doing something that's somewhere in between those extremes.

How many people are clearheaded enough to think beyond their culture, their history, their politics, their race, their gender, and their entire personal background? To put it another way: how many people are completely unbiased and unprejudiced, and therefore capable of rendering a completely fair judgement on another's actions?

And that's why someone once said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

If people had the wisdom to do that, to behave that honestly, I predict that very few stones would ever be cast at anyone. And we'd have no wars. And no quarrels either.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:56 AM

Well, to begin with, the people who take care of you would be the good guys. That would be your parents. Most people have loving parents, and they trust them. Then your parents tell you who the other good guys are. High on the list are the leaders of whatever religion or political party they belong to.

Of course, some of us have parents that we can't fully trust, so it gets complicated....

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:15 AM

But--to decide who the Good Guys are, you must first have a concept of what constitutes the Good.

WHY are the Good Guys Good?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:53 PM

Well, they may think they know their interests...but that doesn't mean they really do.

There are so many reasons for people to quarrel that if I had a penny for every single one, I could afford to buy Manhattan.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:31 PM

Janie also has and excellent point. If I may add to it I would say, that many people don't know their own interests, but in spite of that, they sometimes quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:16 PM

Jim Dixon - "Seriously, I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe."

BINGO!!!!!!!!! Jim, you are so right. Well said! That is the general situation that has been bedeviling most of humanity ever since they dreamed up politics, tribal identities, religion, and culture. They think they know who "the good guys" are, by working from preconceived assumptions based on simplistic notions of some kind of supposed outer identity...and they believe everything they are told by those supposed "good guys". They also look for "bad guys" to blame everything on, condemn, and have wars with. This makes life somewhat dangerous if you are a human being, specially if you're living in the wrong geographical location at the wrong time.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Janie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 09:32 PM

If I understand what you are inquiring about, autolycus, I think your first item is a biggy - conflicting interests to promote or defend.

Where it really gets interesting and complex is the process of each individual in defining their "interest." Most people, (I hope) often disagree with themselves and are aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:01 PM

>>>>Btw, there is another line of thought going thru this thread, of which ed's post is an example.

"Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not)."

That is the thought about rancour and quarreling and pure personality clash.

It is an aspect of the discussion that I, for one, am not interested in for the purposes of this thread.

I have my hands full digesting the answrs which address the thread header directly. <<<

I think that pretty much every response on this thread addresses the header directly.
The differences derive from the definitions of the word disagree.   

1. Have or express a different opinion.
2.    Disapprove of.

You were looking for one of the options in 1. Have a different opinion.
While Ed and most of the rest of us were answering in terms of the question referring to either Express and different opinion of Disapprove of.

It goes to reason A 1. different data.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:43 PM

"I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe."

The filter of socialization?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:21 PM

Seriously, I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:56 PM

8,838,117!

Oh. Wait. I thought you was askin' fer the number of reasons people disagree, eh?

People disagree with me becoz they are flipheads! And becoz they are wrong!

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM

autolycus post is a good example of why, and at sometimes people tend to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:46 PM

"We got a failure to communicate here."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:44 PM

1.One of them forgot to take their meds
2.Posting drunk

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:30 PM

There are a vast number of reasons people disagree. One could spend hours or even days listing them...but I'm not going to. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:26 PM

Btw, there is another line of thought going thru this thread, of which ed's post is an example.

"Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not)."

That is the thought about rancour and quarreling and pure personality clash.

It is an aspect of the discussion that I, for one, am not interested in for the purposes of this thread.

I have my hands full digesting the answrs which address the thread header directly.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM

No!


(that is in response to the thread title)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:01 PM

"Column A
"1. Differences in data; People have access to different information.
"2. Differences in filters; People filter information through different paradigms for example religion, education, prejudice.
"3. Differences in processing; Depending on age, damage and other factors not all human brains process the same way. Differences in empathy can be included here."

That an interesting and neat summary of reasons for disagreement.

Of the recent post with a.,b. and.c., it is

"a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate."

that especially interests me, of which the above is neat.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM

Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not).

Occasionally, they take this "slight" from thread to thread.



""Fingers on their triggers, knee-deep in gore""

Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner, Warren Zevon

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

Yes, obviously that is the filter of your education vs mine, I learned the word when my mother would tell my sister and me to "stop arguing."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:49 PM

Ok...agreed. Quarrel, even I interpret as rancorous.

(being an ex-philosopher, I often used 'argument' in the logical form, meaning simply a laying out of a position in a formal way. That use has stuck with me,)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:32 PM

I just looked up the definition. Obviously Bill is using definition 1. and I am using 2.

This can be considered an example of what I called "filters" above.

For the sake of clarity please substitute the word "quarrel" for "argument" in all of my previous statements on this thread.


a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
b. A quarrel; a dispute.
c. Archaic A reason or matter for dispute or contention: "sheath'd their swords for lack of argument" (Shakespeare).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:27 PM

arguing without rancor.

Bill, I would call that discussion.

Though there is obviously a blurry line between "heated discussion" and argument.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

My last post was in response to autolycus.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

There is an undercurrent of attitude, if not explicit then implied, that 'argument' must mean contentious and combative...etc...

It IS often true, but I wish people could think about the possibility of arguing without rancor.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

Just, just, just, because! OK?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:20 PM

Hmmm. I was being a little tongue in cheek as I thought you were.

But taking it very seriously, here goes..

These are generally accepted definitions of "disagree"
    Have or express a different opinion.
    Disapprove of.

Obviously "having different opinion." opinion is not an issue.
It is the expression of such an opinion that is of interest. Or worse still, the expression of disapproval.

If someone expresses a different opinion from the first and no one answers, then again, it is of little interest, if the holder of the original opinion says thank you kindly for the feed back, or less likely, changes their own opinion to match the second, or less likely still talks back and forth with the second until they both come to understand the other and agree to disagree, then we have a discussion.

If one or both take offense and "defend" themselves aggressively we have an argument.

Taking the above definitions as a starting point, and looking at your list, I see some reasons why people would have a difference of opinion. I see reasons why people would express a difference of opinion and in the case of "lack of empathy" I see, perhaps a reason why someone express disapproval.

Obviously the reasons that two or more persons might have a genuine difference of opinion are myriad but I this it all boils down to three things.

Column A
1. Differences in data; People have access to different information.
2. Differences in filters; People filter information through different paradigms for example religion, education, prejudice.
3. Differences in processing; Depending on age, damage and other factors not all human brains process the same way. Differences in empathy can be included here.

The reasons for a disagreement to turn into an argument are basically psychological. Some would say that it has to do with ego, but I think it is more complicated than that. Some of the reasons I would put forth.

Column B

The desire to communicate.
The desire to prosthelytize.
The desire to dominate
monkey reflex
mischief

I may have missed something, I am just now formulating this idea, but I doubt that you can find a disagreement which has been expressed, which I would call, for arguments sake, an argument, that cannot be fully accounted for by factors from column's A & B.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM

All the world's mad g, except for you and me, and sometimes I'm not sure about you!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Here's to you
And here's to me
And if, by chance, we disagree,
Fuck you
Here's to me.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:45 PM

because we have convictions that others oppose[ to a lesser to greater extent].

a shame that it so often turns into a slanging match.
i think this occurs when one side begins abuse/personal attacks,but sometimes because a strong but never-the-less civil position is taken personally by the alternative position who then react as though they were actually abused by the other.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

"Sorry Bruce, my mistake, you're wrong!"

Crank it, John. Just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM

Jack

Just to go back to your beginning

Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

"Disagreeing does not start arguments."

I wasn't saying they do. I wasn't interested in how anything starts.

I was asking what sorts of things lie behind the disagreement, argument or debate.

I'm still puzzling over some of the reasons various people have given so far as reasons for disagreements.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM

But, I don't know you and you don't know me
I mean I think I know we're bound to disagree
So, I still don't know you, you still don't know me
But, now we both agree that we disagree

Cause, that's the one thing in common we've got, you see
It's that we both disagree
So, between us we can double our profits, you see
Because we both disagree

DISAGREEMENT by CHUMBAWAMBA

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:02 PM

Genetics

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM

Hemmoroid flare-up.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Low blood sugar,
Headaches from cellphones
Trouble at the office
Trouble at home
Not enough sex
Not enough prayer
Too much prayer
Because we have more in common with chimps than bonobos

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM

Because of the "fuck you, if you have a different opinion" attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:20 PM

Thank you for so eloquently illustrating my point.

Obviously the argument that unregistered Guest,Bluesman is trying to start here has nothing to do with a disagreement. It is a personal attack. Note that he does not criticize the post, but the poster. His problem is not with what I am saying but with my very existence.

I guess one could say that the disagreement would be that he thinks that I should not exist and that I would presumably argue that I should exist. At the very least, this should qualify as an existential argument.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:03 PM

Because there are people in the world like the poster above.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:48 PM

I don't understand an argument and a debate to be the same thing.

"people get into arguments because they disagree."

I do not believe this to be the usual case. Sure there is a difference of opinion, but that is almost never the reason for an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM

Because the intent is not to discuss, but to give a sermon.