BS: Stolen Greek art

Subject: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:17 AM

Here's an ethical question for the crew:

Lord Elgin, a Scottish nobleman, was allowed by the Ottoman empire to take many pieces of sculpture from Greece and place them in the British museum. I have seen many of these pieces and they are awe inspiring. However,they were stolen, and in spite of requests by the Greek government to have them returned to Greece, the British government refuses to return them.

Tell me, why shouldn't England be charged with receiving stolen property?

And what about all those mummies that have been dug up and sold around the world? What is the difference between a grave robber and an archeologist?

If either of those acts were committed in the USA, someone would go to jail.
I wonder about such things, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:25 AM

This has been a big issue here for a long time, Kendall. On the one hand, they certainly belonged to Greece; but at the time Lord Elgin brought them back, he didn't steal them so much as rescue them ~~ no respect was being paid to the ruins of the Acropolis under Ottoman rule: they were being used simply as a stone quarry for new buildings. If Elgin hadn't seen what was happening, bought the remaining marbles from the Parthenon frieze {not 'stole', bought ~ tho I am not sure who claimed ownership & actually received the money}, and brought them back to the BM who have made them the centrepiece of their classical collection ever since, they would never have survived at all.

Not an easy moral problem, ∴, as to what should become of them now...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:37 AM

There is a very good and full account of the acquisition, the current state of the arguments on both sides, &c, in Wikipedia under title Elgin Marbles. Well worth a read to anyone interested in this ongoing controversy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:45 AM

BTW, Kendall ~ I much query your final asseveration. Haven't you ever been to the Smithsonian or the NY Met or the Mellon in LA, and seen what they have got there? Where did it all come from then, eh? Should their curators all be trembling in their boots in anticipation of your sending the cops in to feel their collars?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:39 AM

Glasgow Museum returns Native American 'Ghost shirt'

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:53 AM

I've always wondered why the British Museum doesn't make castings from them, return the originals and keep the copies.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 10:13 AM

I do wonder about things like this. I know that the Smithsonian Institution returned several artifacts to tribes that claimed them when SI started its National Museum of the American Indian. In some cases, the tribes claimed items, SI recognized those claims, but the tribes decided to leave the items in the care of NMAI. However, there must have been disputes that were not resolved in favor of the tribes, and not all tribes have standing in this process. Some info is on the FAQ page. http://anthropology.si.edu/repatriation/faq/index.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 10:39 AM

I know it is not quite the same thing but I feel the same way about the Natural History section in Bristol museum the lives of these animals were stolen just to be an exhibit, back to the Elgin Marbles I believe that they should now be returned to Greece where they originated from.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:49 AM

Bugger - I did a constructive post immediately after Kendall's first and it has gone to the bit bucket in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:50 AM

So, should all art be returned to its country of origin then ? If so, there would not be much in North American Museums.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 12:04 PM

"In the US...." Mellon, Getty, Hearst etc.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:04 PM

I can't help but think of the priceless Babylonian and Assyrian art that was pilfered and destroyed in the fall of Sadam Hussein's Iraq. I certainly wish those pieces had been in the British Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:10 PM

Yay ~~ along with those Buddhas the Taliban destroyed, rot their stinking socks!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:35 PM

I see it as pretty cut and dried. The facts are those pieces were taken from Greece, and neither Elgin nor anyone else had a right to take them. The excuse that they were not being cared for is just that, an excuse. The situation in which Elgin found them no longer exists and they should be returned. Stolen property is stolen property. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:49 PM

Well Kendall in actuality, they were paid for, so not legally stolen. I mean, I for one would gladly repatriate every tacky Greek souvenir brought back to this country. Because that's sort of the same thing as these here marbles. They were brought back as souvenirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM

Kendall,

Do you think Lord Elgin intentionally stole the sculptures? It sounds from your description that he did everything he could to preserve them.

I think that the fact that the art has been preserved is far more important than what museum it is in.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM

Another way of looking at it is that Lord Elgin (no doubt due to having a classical education) held more value for artifacts of the Ancient Greeks than the contemporary Greeks of his time.

That is evidenced by the willingness of those Greeks to sell their cultural heritage to a foreigner.

There's a PBS special on the work being done to restore the Acropolis and the Parthenon. Perhaps when that work is completed, something should be worked out.

On the other hand, this may not be the time for Greece to be burdened with further preservation obligations.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: fretless
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM

Oh boy. Here we go:

Elgin purchased the Parthenon sculptures from the Ottoman Turks, who at the time of the purchase were the rulers of Greece. At the time, it was a legal sale. You can imagine what subsequent, post-Ottoman Greek governments have to say about the legitimacy of that transaction.

There is no doubt that in the early years of their being in London the British treated the marbles better than they would have been in Greece. (At the time Elgin exported the marbles, other traders had set up lime kilns on the Acropolis to render marble into lime/white wash. The permits for the kilnsmen are documented. Without Elgin, in other words, the Parthenon marbles would almost certainly be dust.)

Among the claims made by Britain to justify the retention of the marbles is the assertion that the sculptures have been in London for so long, they are now to be consider part of the British heritage. As well as Greek heritage, which as a Western democracy, Britain also claims as its heritage.

Greece claims ownership based on initial creation and on the fact that they have the building on which the marbles should historically be hung. However, no one is planning to restore the marbles to their original on site location. So the question becomes whose museum they should occupy. The Greeks counter British arguments about appropriate curation/care by claiming—with full legitimacy—that whatever might have happened in the past, the marbles would be well treated in Greece today. Indeed, the recently opened new Acropolis museum has a top floor gallery specifically designed to hold the sculptures when(ever) they actually find their way "home."

Neither side is willing to budge on the issue at the moment, and currently the Greeks have other things to worry about.

As for the Native American artifacts, repatriation of those to the tribes is usually covered in the U.S. under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which focuses on ownership based on tribal affiliation and descent. When the Smithsonian gives stuff back to the Indians, there is a recognized lineage claim. In some instances, this claim has been stretched (for example, Kennewick Man).

Claims to ownership of Greek and Roman Mediterranean antiquities are usually today based on alignment with the 1970 UNESCO convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property 1970. If the piece can be documented as being owned before 1970, most scholars and countries will allow the ownership to stand. If there is no documentation of legal export before that date, the ownership is often in dispute and many of the Western scholarly associations (for example, the Archaeological Institute of America) will not allow their conferences or their publications to serve as the initial point of publication/announcement of the item.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 07:48 PM

[i]I've always wondered why the British Museum doesn't make castings from them, return the originals and keep the copies.[/i]

I've always wondered why Greece doesn't make castings from them, happy that someone cared enough to rescue the originals from their inevitable fate, happy that they should keep them.

Kendall - there is a massive hole in your argument; the word "stolen". Lord Elgin did [b]not[/b] steal them. He bought them from what was, then, the legitimate government. That, some / many years later, Turkey was no longer the legitimate government does not retrospectively turn Lord Elgin's purchase into theft. You can bitch all you want, but wasn't it Napoleon's artillery who decided to use the Sphinx as target practice? Who are you, who is anyone, to say that the Marbles would have been so well preserved had Lord Elgin kept his money in his pocket?

There may be other arguments for the return of the Marbles. Theft is not a legitimate one.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 07:49 PM

Argh. So much for bb code. I thought that worked here?! But you get the idea vis quoting & emphasis! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:01 AM

Raed ~ You use the < > brackets, not the [ ] .

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 05:00 AM

Americans are welcome to pontificate on the return of the Elgin Marbles to Greece, ...

when they return all the land to the 'native americans'!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 05:19 AM

Given Greece's current prospects there may be a pragmatic argument for not returning the marbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:46 AM

All those red herrings aside, the sculptures were created in Greece by Greeks, not the Turks or Lord Elgin. If the Greeks wanted to destroy them completely it was their right to do so.
As far as us returning all the land we stole, that is another red herring and it is a damn site more complicated than the Greek art issue! Picture us crating up California and shipping it to Mexico!

Semantics is afoot here; Elgin may have paid for the stuff but the Greeks didn't get the money.

I stick to my belief that the stuff should be returned. The British museum has an exact copy of the Rosetta stone, so, why not copies of all the other stuff that was hauled away?

Believe me, folks, it is not our freedom that makes others hate us, it's our arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 09:31 AM

Kids have toys they never play with, but when some other kid picks it up, it then becomes the only toy in town.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:55 AM

All those red herrings aside, the sculptures were created in Greece by Greeks, not the Turks or Lord Elgin
Another red herring.
The painting on the Cistene Chapel was created by Michaelangelo. That doesn't mean he retains ownership.
At the time Elgin obtained the marbles he bought them from the (then) owners.
If property always reverts to the creator, or to the original owner (commissioner) There would be no trade in works of art, as no subsequent owner could obtain a valid title.

The Marbles were bought and paid for by Elgin. He then donated then to the British Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:34 AM

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM

Listen Kendall. How about we return the Elgin marbles back to greece when you return all of your stolen/purchased european art, paintings and sculptures that languish in your museums back to the countries they were created in.

What a daft argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:17 PM

Let's stick to the subject. Nigel, the paintings on the ceiling of the chapel didn't go anywhere!
The subject only becomes daft when it is covered with red herrings!

Here in Maine a few years ago we were forced to pay the Indians for the land our ancestors took from them. I say "Fair enough."

You guys, your belief seems to be "We stole it fair and square" so it's ours now.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

Your argument is so full of holes you could make a sting vest out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

OK.

What is it about the Elgin Marbles particularly that bothers you over and above any other artwork that is held in a museum in any country other than the one it was created in? The British Museum has many much more interesting things than the Elgin Marbles.

The British Museum BTW has the original Rosetta Stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM

Tell you what kendall, you as, an American, look after your own culture (he said with a straight face) and leave the British to look after theirs. Simple eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: bobad
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:26 PM

From Wikipedia:

"There is strong opposition among national museums to the repatriation of objects of international cultural significance such as the Rosetta Stone. In response to repeated Greek requests for return of the Elgin Marbles and similar requests to other museums around the world, in 2002, over 30 of the world's leading museums — including the British Museum, the Louvre, the Pergamon Museum in Berlin and the Metropolitan Museum in New York City — issued a joint statement declaring that "objects acquired in earlier times must be viewed in the light of different sensitivities and values reflective of that earlier era" and that "museums serve not just the citizens of one nation but the people of every nation".[78]"

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Thank You, bobad, that sums it all up perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

made in Greece by Greeks is an argument?

Does that mean that we have to send all our clothes back to China?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM

It's incredibly simple. Could the Ottoman regime pass good title?

Answer "yes".

Did they?

Answer "yes".

End of argument.

Morally and artistically it is also a good thing - look at what was happening and threatens again to happen.


There are other cases in which the question of acquisition of good title is not so simple - but in this case there is only one answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:59 PM

People have a way of justifying anything that suits them.
Reminds me of my ex wife; she decided what was right by a simple formula, If she wanted it, it was right. If not, it was wrong.
Human nature.

I asked for opinions and I got them; I also stated mine. You know what I say about opinions, they are like assholes, everybody has one, and one is as good as another.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:12 PM

With respect, one that is rational is usually better than one that is irrational.

Your argument is used by the proponents of "intelligent design" to have it taught as science (which it is not) in schools.

It is a total fallacy that all opinions are equal. Some are stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:24 PM

Come on Kendall.

If some rich person told you that rich people getting richer would trickle down to you, would that be a valid opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:37 PM

Elgin, in good faith, paid the value of the marbles to the administration in power at the time, which was Ottoman (Turkish).

Therefore, he was legally the owner of those purchased goods, and free to dispose of them as he saw fit.

However, there is a moral case for their return, as the Greek nation was the loser.

Speaking pragmatically, the British Museum as legal owners are under no obligation to return the marbles, but a moral argument might be made for offering the Greek government the monetary value, which in present circumstances might be more beneficial than a museum exhibit in Athens.

There is a parallel here with the sale of works by important British artists to foreign (often American) collectors and museums. Today, the only way to prevent this is by raising the cash to outbid them. Why should it have been any different in Nineteenth or early twentieth century Greece.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:30 PM

Richard, you just proved my point that arrogance is a factor here.
One may argue with statements put forth as fact if we know better, but opinions are just that and they are personal. You may have a different opinion but you have no right to piss on another's opinion.

Anyway, I was just curious as what the crew thinks of the subject. Legally, the museum has a claim to the goods, morally they should return them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:31 PM

People have a way of justifying anything that suits them.
Reminds me of my ex wife; she decided what was right by a simple formula, If she wanted it, it was right. If not, it was wrong.
Human nature.

I asked for opinions and I got them; I also stated mine. You know what I say about opinions, they are like assholes, everybody has one, and one is as good as another.

Yes, yes, yes! Exactly right!! And if you can't see how that argument can be turned 180 degrees right back on to you... Because it can. So it's no argument at all.

You're determined to justify what suits you. Further, you're the one that started this thread. So your 'ethical' question wasn't. It was actually just an excuse to get on a soap box & bang the drum you seem to be interested in. If the many counter arguments that you've received make no impression on you, does that that mean that we're all ignoramuses, or that you're narrow-minded to the point of being blinkered?

However, there is a moral case for their return, as the Greek nation was the loser.

I have to disagree, Don, sorry. As I & several others have pointed out, the Greek nation didn't exist at the time the Marbles were purchased, and later might never have had the chance to moan about our purchase had we not done so then.

P.S. Thanks to MGM for setting me straight on codiquette.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 09:12 PM

It's an amazing thing to visit the Acropolis. It's something I dreamed of since I was 17 years old, taking high school Greek. I was in my early 50s when I finally got there, and it was wonderful. I admit that it was a disappointment to see the Parthenon and almost all the buildings on the Acropolis missing all ornamentation. However, if Elgin had left those marbles, would they still be there now? Seems to me that even today, Greece does not have an economy stable enough to afford to give those artifacts the protection they need.

Take a look at this photograph of a painting of an artist's conception of the Acropolis. Yes, it's a disappointment that the Acropolis doesn't look like that now, but at least the marbles have been preserved and are available for people to see in London - I saw them there. So many places in Greece, the artifacts were stolen and are in the hands of private collectors and not available for anyone to see. In Rhodes, there is nothing left of the Colossus, although it remained for centuries after it toppled.

Yes, it's true that such artifacts would have been preserved differently in the current age, but they met a pretty good fate when Elgin collected them in the 19th century. No, they may not be in Greece - but they are in a public institution where the public can see them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:27 AM

It remains a total fallacy that all opinions are equal.

An opinion might be "car A is faster than car B". If you time them and car B is faster, the opinion was wrong. There is no getting round it.

Elgin bought the marbles from their rightful owner at the time. There was no fraud, no coercion, no trickery. There is no valid challenge to that view and indeed no challenge has even been advanced.

The "opinion" that the marbles are stolen property is, quite simply, untenable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:16 AM

Elgin saved the marbles from destruction. He did not just save them 'for the nation' he saved them for the world, if it wasn't for him they would not exist and the whole argument would be specious anyway.

Kendall thinks that it would have been better for the marbles to have stayed in Greece and been completely destroyed - anyone agree with him? Anyone?

The Marbles have been immaculatly cared for and are FREE display to anyone, that is ANYONE who wants to see them.

The more of Kendalls posts that I read the more I think him a congenital idiot. (Mind you, that is just my opinion)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:21 AM

While I don't agree that the marbles were stolen (The case for Manhatten Island could be debated though), I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be returned now.

Such good copies are relatively cheap to make nowadays that it wouldn't really matter much who retained the originals.

We, and the Greeks can thank Lord Elgin for rescuing them.

Personally, I would install copies on the Parthenon and keep the originals in a museum.

Here's my pic of the building

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:45 AM

I would install copies on the Parthenon and keep the originals in a museum
... as they have done with the caryatids from the Erechtheion, which are in the museum on-site.   But, if I remember correctly, it is not free, unlike the British Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM

Silas, your opinion of me is none of my business.It carries no more weight than my opinion of you.

That statement about the cars,as I said, if an opinion is stated as fact then that can be argued, especially if it can be proven wrong.

Gentlemen, all I did was ask a question and request opinions, and what did I get? broadsides! Called an idiot.

Old saying, "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp."

Don't you just love Mudcat? everyone is so civilized and friendly. Never a harsh word...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM

"Gentlemen, all I did was ask a question and request opinions, and what did I get? broadsides!"

What you actually said was; "they were stolen, and in spite of requests by the Greek government to have them returned to Greece, the British government refuses to return them. Tell me, why shouldn't England be charged with receiving stolen property?" and every time anyone pointed out the bleedin' obvious, you ignored them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Eb
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:57 AM

In Alaska, as all across the nation, many artifacts have had to be returned to their original owners, usually tribal entities. Masks, ceremonial shakers, carvings and much more had been acquired by various means such as expropriation, raids, thefts and purchase. In many cases, the courts ruled that the person surrendering it had no right to do so.

It's a fine line- for instance, some people, mostly white, have rescued totem poles and re-erected them elsewhere. Those poles still stand today, repaired and restored as needed.

However, the tribal culture that created them meant for them to be returned to the earth in due course through the medium of decay.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM

Let's face it folks, both the UK and the USA have done their share of helping themselves to what belonged to others.
Splitting hairs to justify what we have done does not make what we did right.
We Yanks learned arrogance from the masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM

Ahhh, so we admit that these 'acts' were commited in the USA?

Anyone in jail for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:16 PM

Kendall,

Why are you picking a fight here? You know that calling the people of the UK thieves would inspire an angry reaction. Could you not have stated your opinion in a less argumentative and confrontational way?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:39 PM

Gentlemen, all I did was ask a question and request opinions, and what did I get? broadsides! Called an idiot.

No you didn't, kendall. All you did was ask a loaded question, make statements that reveal your bias, and fail to acknowledge any of the points against you, except by restating your already debunked arguments.

You did not try to start a debate; you tried to start an argument, and now you're wondering why people are calling you names? I don't agree that people should be calling you names (Silas - hush! ;-) ), although I do agree that you are, like the rest of us, a congenital idio... *ahem* I mean, human being... ;-)

If you wanted to start a debate, you should have left out "stolen", "grave robber", and so on. They're not debating points, they're caltrops - deliberately spiky & asking to be trodden on. I don't dispute that the notion that the Marbles belong in Greece is valid, even if I don't agree with it; however, your reasoning, as presented, is invalid, and your presentation of the opinion has been execrable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:28 PM

I retract the word stolen. The people of the UK did not steal anything. It was a poor choice of words. Both the UK and the USA are in possession of things to which they have no moral right.

I was watching a TV program on the Greek marbles and I simply wondered what the crew here thinks of what was said.

Lord Elgin bought the pieces from the Turks who took them from Greece and sold them. Anyone believe that was right?

I was not looking for a punch up, I was asking for opinions and they way I put it twisted some tails. Including my English wife's!

As I said, "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp." In this case, a couple of them threw them back! OUCH!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:27 PM

Ah noo Kendall ma loon thons a wise decision heck beuy ahm no English and ah wis near on the point o pittin ye ower ma knee and skelpin yer chours and verse till yer lugs rang

(Translations will be supplied on the completion af an application form and a £10 note ) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:52 PM

Thank you, sir. Much better! :)

Lord Elgin bought the pieces from the Turks who took them from Greece and sold them. Anyone believe that was right?

Again, I must take a small issue here. The Turks didn't "take them from"; the Turks, for better or worse, ruled Greece at that time (and had done for over 300 years). Lord Elgin bought from the then legitimate rulers. Thus, the Marbles were preserved.

I don't like arguments about history. People then behaved as they saw fit then. We, now, behave as we see fit now. I think there is no value, no point, no purpose, in judging their times by ours'. When people start demanding apologies for acts of 200 years ago, I get annoyed. They did what they thought was right. If the world has changed in the meanwhile... How are we now responsible for what they did, that we should have to apologise for acts that were not ours'? Surely, those acts all that time ago were part of the process that produced we that are now; that have a different view of the world which means that we would not do those things? And how would we be us now if they had not been them then?

So, the Marbles... Greece & the UK have claims to them. Whose is stronger? The UK bought them legitimately, as they believed at the time. Against that, Greece claims them as theirs because they made them. But what is the causal link between the people that lived in Athens (a city state; not a nation) and caused them to be, and the modern Greek state that wants them back?

As for "moral" arguments, if you don't moralise over me, I promise I won't moralise over you... And ethics is only the same word in different clothes! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 08:36 PM

I stand corrected and chastised. Everything is relative; to a germ, good health is a type of disease.

Meghan, would you really do that for me? Ohhhh.oooooooH! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:28 PM

Well, Kendall, despite that nastiness from some in the thread, it has been a very interesting discussion. I would like to have seen the Elgin Marbles in place on the Parthenon, but they probably would have crumbled to dust by now.
I did see them in the British Museum a few years later, and they were very nicely displayed.

So, who's right? Who knows?

Maybe there is no right answer in this discussion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 04:13 AM

OK Kendall.

I apologise for my 'Idiot' remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:41 AM

Semantics is afoot here; Elgin may have paid for the stuff but the Greeks didn't get the money.

As one who has been the agent for a major marine artist, he and I would both be a lot happier if he had been able to profit from subsequent sales of his work. As it is, the artist's rights to the physical art itself end when the work is sold, either by him or by his agent. In this case, the physical owner of the art was the Turkish government.      

On the other hand, his rights to reproduction of the image fall under current copyright law. The work cannot be reproduced without a license from the artist, for which he or she must be paid.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:56 AM

hey,Y'all- think you'd find this germaine.

Give this a read: Waxman, Sharon: LOOT - The Battle Over The Stolen Treasures Of The Ancient World.. New York, Henry Holt & Co, 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:14 AM

As one who has been the agent for a major marine artist, he and I would both be a lot happier if he had been able to profit from subsequent sales of his work. As it is, the artist's rights to the physical art itself end when the work is sold, either by him or by his agent. In this case, the physical owner of the art was the Turkish government.      


Why should the artist get a 'cut' from future sales. Presumably when he (or his agent) first sold the art they were happy with the price they received.
If the original purchaser has to sell at a loss (because his investment was not a wise one) will the artist underwrite part of the mark-down?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:51 AM

The sort of copyright discussed in several of the last few threads expires somewhere [according to local usages and regulations] between 50 & 70+ years of their creator's death. I somehow have a feeling that the actual © of ~ Phidias, wasn't it? ~ will have expired by now ~~ or even by the 2nd decade of C19...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 11:23 PM

There was quite a scandal in 2005 about a curator from the Getty Museum in Los Angeles, charged in Rome with receiving stolen artifacts.
The Getty has a wonderful collection of antiquities, and I'm glad I was able to see it - but ownership of many of the items in the collection is clouded, at best. The building where the antiquities are housed is a replica of a villa from Pompeii, built in a canyon in Malibu. Most stunning museum display I've ever seen. Second to that in my experience is the tomb of Phillip II in Macedonia - which goes to show ya that the Greeks do have the ability to preserve and display artifacts.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:25 AM

Nigel, Consider the case of van Gogh. His work was worth nothing in his lifetime. People were not quite ready to appreciate him. Now it goes for upward of $100,000,000. Or Picasso, who had a group of good marketers. Or Andy Warhol, who in my opinion was the Emperor with no Clothes. The quality does not necessarily go in but an awful lot of people buy art on speculation rather than because they really appreciate it other than in the financial sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:40 AM

Sitll can't see what this drift - about recent contemporary art & its comparative success/failure & its copyright issues - has to do about the topic of this thread ~~ see mine of yesterday 1051 am.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:41 AM

Did Lord Elgin sell the "Marbles" on? I don't think so I beleive he donated them.

As the "Marbles" are not complete, perhaps Kendall and the Greeks can tell us where the rest of them are. Oh no, of course they can't because the Greeks along with the Turks at the time Lord Elgin bought his were ripping them from the facade and had been doing so for some time. Were they preserving them? No, they were rendering the marble down to make?   -   WHITEWASH.

The Greeks have no legal or moral right to the Elgin Marbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 07:39 AM

Another opinion.Same validity as all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM

Elgin sold the Marbles to the British Museum round about the time of Waterloo (1815 - about fifteen years after they were brought to Britain). He received about half of what they had cost him; £35,000 or so as against about £70,000. With regard to the issue of his original intentions, I think it was only when he saw the kind of destruction that has been mentioned already, and indeed compared what was then present on the Acropolis with what had been there, and described by several visitors from England, only half a century before, that he entered into discussions with a view to buying those "pieces of sculpture which could be removed". Prior to that, he had had numerous plaster casts made under the direction of an Italian called Lusieri. These casts are still in the BM (or were until about twenty years ago; I'm not sure, now). Comparison of some of those that were made back in 1799/1800 with the originals left in place (i.e., on the Parthenon) show the remarkable deterioration of those originals; not just another two centuries' worth of wind and weather, but the effects of recent atmospheric pollution.   So, in effect, Elgin's "last poor plunder from a bleeding land" did preserve the marbles. If truly convincing copies can be made, and placed either on the remains of the temple, or perhaps even on a replica, that would satisfy visual requirements. Ah, but then there's the issue of value, isn't there?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 10:23 AM

During the spring break I took the resident teenager to Dublin, first to the National Museum of Ireland where we saw, among other things, the display of Irish high crosses and later we saw the treasures of the Tutankhamun in the RDS.

Visually it was all stunning, the knowledge everything we had seen were replicas left a nagging feeling of dissatisfaction. Strange how that works isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:28 AM

Thank you for that information An Buachaill Caol Dubh.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

"Driot de suite" (the right of an artist or to an extent descendants to participate in increased prices on resale of original art) is favoured by the Eurocentric international conventions and pretty well universal in Europe, but is not perpetual. The normal duration is life + 70. Australia has it too.

I believe it has been implemented in California and I think there is talk about New York coming into line although it was defeated there once.

http://www.artinfo.com/news/story/38274/what-would-importing-droit-de-suite-to-the-us-mean-for-the-art-market/

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

Kendall... "Here in Maine a few years ago we were forced to pay the Indians for the land our ancestors took from them. I say "Fair enough."

Oh dear. A whole new thread. But, rather than start a new thread, and an arguement that some will never discuss rationally, I'll just say, ya can't take land from someone who has never set foot on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:51 PM

Lord Elgin, a Scottish nobleman …….
…… place them in the British museum. …….
…… the British government refuses to return them.

…… why shouldn't England be charged ……


I suppose you could blame the whole of Britain, but why pick on the English for something done by a Scot.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM

Don't you all think this horse has been beaten to death?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:13 PM

Kendall... I think the flies have left the carcass.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:18 PM

Well, Kendall, it's your friggin' horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:19 PM

P.S.: Might make a decent song.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:51 PM

As far as I care, Joe can close it now. We have had a spirited exchange of opinions, and there is nothing new to be said.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:21 AM

Sorry. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to join in the fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:33 AM

I have wondered if it would be structurally possible to display the Elgin Marbles in their original locations. I tend to think it wouldn't work, because the buildings have deteriorated since the marbles were taken down. When ancient buildings are partial ruins, I'm not sure it's right to restore them to their original glory. Restoration could tend to turn them into replicas. The buildings should be preserved in their current state of deterioration, but I don't think I'd like to see them looking perfect again.

Wikipedia has a photo of the Acropolis here (click). As you can see, there are two large cranes that tower over the Parthenon, the temple of Athena. Those cranes were there when I was in Athens in 2003, and I think they're still there. Wikipedia has a 2010 photo of the Parthenon covered by scaffolding. The buildings are in sad shape. I had the feeling I was on a construction site as I walked around the Acropolis.

But the marbles are in very good condition, thanks to the British Museum. The display of the Elgin Marbles is magnificent. I guess I'm very lucky to have been able to see both the Parthenon and the Elgin Marbles. Both visits were wonderful experiences.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM

Doug, I said "As far as I'm concerned." Of course you are welcome to join in.
Joe, you have a point. However, what if the Lincoln memorial was in a state of decay, would it be ok to restore it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

The Lincoln Memorial was finished in 1920 (Wikipedia 1), the Parthenon in 432 BC (Wikipedia 2).

Hardly comparable, me thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

"if the Lincoln memorial was in a state of decay, would it be ok to restore it?"

Not if that meant Art Pope paying his taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:45 PM

The marbles were bought and paid for.

So was "The Louisiana Purchase". I hope that France doesn't come and claim that back.

As for things being stolen, Isn't that pretty much what happened to California?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM

"As for things being stolen, Isn't that pretty much what happened to California?"

How so?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:23 PM

"Annexation" of Texas pushed by slaveholders, then phony war against Mexico & claim lands as part of the treaty/spoils of war.

The old U.S.A. rope-a-dope.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:25 PM

""I have to disagree, Don, sorry. As I & several others have pointed out, the Greek nation didn't exist at the time the Marbles were purchased, and later might never have had the chance to moan about our purchase had we not done so then.""

The Greek nation has existed since more than 3000 years ago.

The fact that it was under occupation and control by the Turks doesn't alter that.

Or are you saying that modern Germany has the right to keep all the works of art looted by Adolf & Co?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:17 PM

"The Greek nation has existed since more than 3000 years ago."

Really?? What was the capital of this Greek State that existed 3000 years ago? 3000 years ago there may well have been something that we recognise as "Greek Culture" but alas no Greek Nation, modern day Greece as we know it consisted of a group of city states, so no Greece never existed as a state 3000 years ago. If 3000 years ago you went up to a Spartan, a Macedonian, an Athenian and told him he was a Greek he would have the foggiest notion what you were on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:26 PM

"What was the capital of this Greek State that existed 3000 years ago?"

Diner.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:04 PM

Good question, Greg. Did Greece exist as a unified nation before the Turks left? Before the Turks, I believe Greece was part of the Roman Empire. I don't believe that Greece was ever a unified, independent nation until the 1920s.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:35 PM

Greece was the cultural and political center of an empire under Alexander. But after Romans, not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:35 PM

Actyually, if you listen to my upset Macedonian friend, the current Macedonia has no right to the name because it was not a part of the Macedonian empire and did not share the language or culture of the 'pure' Greek Macedonians.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:24 AM

Don ~ the works looted [indeed the mot juste] by the Nazis were indeed, by any definition, 'stolen'. The artefacts legally purchased, from those with the then current title to sell them, by Lord Elgin, by the very same token were not.

It would be disingenuous in the extreme on your part to pretend you do not apprehend or comprehend this distinction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:04 PM

So, who benefited from the sale of the marbles? The Greeks? The people who created them?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:49 PM

"So, who benefited from the sale of the marbles? The Greeks? The people who created them?"

Well, let's see shall we. It certainly was not Elgin, he lost a fortune on the sale. Can't be the people who created them, they were pretty old when they were sold and the creators were pushing upo the daisies by then.

The Greeks. Well, Yes! of course.If they had not been rescued by Elgin, the Greeks would not be benefitting from the exposure of their own culture that the display of these items shows.

But mainly, it is everyone who has benefitted - if Elgiin hadn't done what he did, they would not exist. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:24 PM

"So, who benefited from the sale of the marbles? The Greeks? The people who created them? "

The people who created them had been dead 2000 years. The Greeks who lived in Athens at the time did lose out on their opportunity to turn them into whitewash, the fate of thousands of other Greek and Roman statues. So maybe the current Greeks should get a couple of shipping containers of modern day paint. That would more than cover the commercial loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:59 PM

Denial is a river in Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:19 AM

Is it anywhere near The Nile? Or the Black Nile? Or the Pink Nile other wise known as the P-Nile with flows hard and strong when the Heart of Africa pulses and flows with the spring rains flowing down Viagra Falls.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:23 AM

Anyone repeating that old chestnut, K, ought to be "in denial" ~ up to his neck!.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

Don - others have already refuted your reply to my point quite correctly. I did a quick google & Wiki (Yes! I know!) came up with this.

As a result of years of negotiation, the nascent Greek state was finally recognized under the London Protocol in 1830.

Ancient Greece is a cultural term within a geographical area that is not reflected by the current boundaries of the modern Greek state. I'm only a casual student of Classical history (I prefer other periods), but as far as I'm aware, in Ancient Greece there were always many states, centred around "cities", usually in some kind of alliance, often shifting, and not uncommonly at war with other cities & alliances. It hardly conforms to the picture of a modern state, does it? (Although given the recent rioting... ;-))

Yes, modern Greece has grounds to make a claim, but I do not believe those claims warrant a return of the Marbles, even ignoring the perfectly legitimate & much stronger claim of the British Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

As I said, old notions die hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

Not sure what you mean, kendall, but I'm assuming you still think they should be given back on, it must be said, emotional grounds, rather than rational ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

Kendall, I don't think you are going far enough with this. The marble statues were not made at the Acropolis. They should be returned directly to the people who are living on the sites of the workshops in which they were made. That is unless the people at the marble quarry ask for them. What if the Marble came from what is now Turkey? Would that make the sale legit?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps it's not just the Greeks who have lost their marbles....

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:23 PM

What I meant is perfectly clear. Old notions die hard. You may infer that I still think they should be returned, or you may infer that I think they shouldn't. Take your pick.

Some excellent points have been made here on both sides, and I'm glad I don't have to decide which side wins.

I've said all I have to say on this subject, but I will close with this; I'm glad Lord Elgin saved the works, and I got to enjoy them in the British museum. I'm not easily awed, but that museum did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:13 PM

It's obviously not perfectly clear to me, sir, or I wouldn't have commented so! ;-)

I'll agree with the hurrah for Lord Elgin. I've seen them too... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:54 PM

No-one seems to have mentioned the superb National Museum in Athens, whose collection comes from all over. They have, e.g, superbly displayed, that wonderful 'Mask of Agamemnon;. Hands up who thinks it should be sent back to Mykonos.

& should The Louvre send back the Nike of Samothrace?

[cont p 94]

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:44 AM

Let me put it this way: No one has changed his mind on this subject on either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 02:14 PM

Yes I did. AT first I said 'return the originals' then I changed that to
'is doesn't matter much who keeps the originals.

When I saw them in The British Museum they were on the floor in a hallway, just propped up against the wall. Not quite as impressive as their modern display.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 01:05 AM

The November 2011 issue of Smithsonian Magazine has an interesting article that traces the acquisition of a statue by the Getty Museum (mentioned above) and it's eventual recent repatriation back to Italy.

I'm not sure how accessible it is, but just in case, you can try looking at A Goddess Goes Home Smithsonian Magazine, November 2011.

A sidebar in the print magazine also appears as a separate article at the website:

ACQUISITION GUIDELINES

U.S. MUSEUMS HAVE CLEARER GUIDELINES ON acquiring ancient art today than just a few years ago.

In 2008, both the Association of Art Museum Directors (AAMD) and the American Association of Museums (AAM) recommended that museums acquire no object unless it was exported legally after 1970 or had left before 1970 the country in which it was discovered. That was the year a Unesco accord recognized a nation's right to control cultural property created or found within its borders.

AAM guidelines state that when documentation is unclear, a museum "should be transparent about why this [acquisition] is an appropriate decision." AAMD guidelines say a museum may use "an informed judgment" but "must carefully balance" the risks and benefits of acquiring the object.

Museums once had "an approach to collecting ancient art which was 'Don't buy anything that you know to be stolen," says Maxwell L. Anderson, CEO of the Indianapolis Museum of Art and chairman of an AAMD task force on cultural property. "I said we have to flip that to, 'Don't buy anything unless you know it's not stolen."

AAMD and AAM differ in scope—the former includes some 200 museum directors, the latter some 18,000 museums—but they cooperated to ensure "there was no daylight between their guidelines," says Erik Ledbetter, chief of staff of the AAM guideline task force.

A policy adopted by the Smithsonian regents in 1973 states that museum officials must determine that an object considered for acquisition was not "unethically acquired from its source, unscientifically excavated, or illegally removed" from the country in which it was found, and, further, that it entered the United States legally. The provenance of acquired objects, the policy says, "shall be a matter of public record."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 02:41 AM

Kendall says: Let me put it this way: No one has changed his mind on this subject on either side.

I guess that's right in my case. I'm still undecided, and think that both Greece and the UK have a legitimate claim on the Elgin Marbles.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:00 PM

Once my mind is made up, I'm full of indecision.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 05:09 PM

So what is your mind full of when it isn't made up? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 05:22 PM

In Kendall's case it's probably songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 08:03 PM

RIGHT!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 12:27 AM

What make-up do you use on your mind, K? Revlon? Max Factor? ...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 04:18 AM

I'll do the jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:23 AM

〠〠〠〠〠

☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:20 PM

Getting back to the question of artists' rights, this was in the new today.

Artists and their families welcome Government's decision on the Artist's Resale Right
   
LONDON.- The families and beneficiaries of UK artists stand to benefit from millions in royalties from 1 January 2012 with the full implementation of the Artist's Resale Right.

This important Right pays artists royalties each time their work is resold by an auction house or art dealer. The Right has applied to living artists since 2006, and DACS (the Design and Artists Copyright Society) has paid artists nearly £14 million in royalties in the last six years.

Artist Damien Hirst explains why he thinks the Artist Resale Right is so important: 'I'm pleased that the Artist's Resale Right is finally be extended to heirs and beneficiaries as in most other EU states. We need to recognise financially their role in preserving art. They spend a lot of time and energy on this and they should have some support.'

The full implementation means that artists can leave this Right to their families with the royalties helping support the vital work carried out by estates to preserve the artist's legacy after their death (and for 70 years following).

In addition, the Government has also just announced changes to the administration of the Right which will remove the requirement for artists' beneficiaries to be of UK or EU nationality.

This amendment means that the Artist's Resale Right can be passed on effectively to many more heirs and beneficiaries. The financial support from the Right will be enormously helpful in recognising the work that heirs and beneficiaries do through conserving artists' estates including the costs of storage, conservation, cataloguing, research, restoration, assessment of provenance, and the identification of fakes.

A second change to the Right will mean that artists from some countries outside the European Economic Area (EEA) will no longer enjoy reciprocal resale rights, and UK artists will no longer receive royalties from some countries outside of the EEA.

Gilane Tawadros, Chief Executive of DACS says: 'We are delighted that artists' families and beneficiaries will now benefit from this important Right. In addition, the Government's decision to rectify a mistake in the original legislation brings the UK into line with the rest of Europe meaning that many more heirs and beneficiaries can benefit.'

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:28 PM

~~~ "Getting back to the question of artists' rights" ~~~

WHY?

That's a separate subject, on which there have been numerous threads. What, pray, has it got to do with Ancient Greek artefacts and the most appropriate place where they should now be housed?

This isn't jut thread drift: it's idiotic irrelevancy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:54 PM

M, you miss the point. If an object is legally acquired the question is what rights the successors have.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:04 PM

There are certainly more ethical and honest people here than you would ever find at an exclusive curator convention.

Museums are not just a business...

They are high stakes well heeled cut throat criminal enterprises of whom the members all speak a dialect of 'art speak'.

Yes Virginia there are exeptions.

Perhaps you know how the finest people (many are the biggest sponsors of NPR) and the former gov of Pennsylvania Randel stole several billions of dollars of post Impresssionist art.


Ah, if only justice were done at the pointing of my finger, scores of mansions would go vacant.

Then there are is the dungeon world of private collectors in which the most prized item is the most illegal item. Fortunatly they too are mortal, but there are cases in which the treasures are never recovered in order to protect the "good name" of the thief.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:35 PM

Whose successors, EB? Phidias's? Pericles'? Elgin's? George III's?

These current disputatious 'rights' have no relevance to the topic of this thread.

As one of Shaw's characters put it as a sort of leitmotif: You think they do but they don't.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 11:00 PM

How about the Greek people? That IS the subject of the thread. I am not sure they are entitled but am willing to consider all points of view. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:10 AM

Of course, EB. Hope I have done so, at least by implication, above.

Which in no way obviates the complete irrelevance of all these refs to current legislation, which have about as much to do with it all as the Book of Maccabees to the present situation in the Middle East... IMO they are in no way applicable — a mere pissing-down-wind distraction from the entire point of the thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:43 AM

"Legally purchased", ah, there's the rub.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:08 PM

No, kendall, there's no rub. As has already been pointed out, the modern Greek state may have a cultural claim to the Marbles, but they cannot possibly have a legal claim, since their state did not exist in any legally recognisable form prior to the removal of said Marbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

Aint semantics fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:24 PM

Lawyers applying different national laws while interpreting or ignoring international laws is probably at the heart of most legal purchasing of art.

Greece would seem to have less art stolen than Egypt has.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:40 AM

Who created those works of art? The Turks? the British museum? Lord Elgin? There might not have been a Greek nation at the time but there were Greeks!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:25 AM

OK Kendall

Henry VIII invited Holbein, a Flemish painter to do some work for him.

The paintings are now in the National Gallery in London. Who do YOU think they belong to?

Decendents of the King?, Decendents of Holbein?, The British Nation?, Flanders? Belgium?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 10:47 AM

They didn't think of themselves as "Greeks" at the time, K. They were all "Hellenes", and could combine when needed as centuries against Troy; but that was 700 years earlier, & they remained their own entities nevertheless. The Parthenon Frieze, aka the Elgin Marbles, was a creation of the Athenians; who had an entirely different culture and weltanschauung from the Spartans or the Corinthians of the age. There is no direct traceable connection SFAIK between the Athenians of C5 BCE & the present inhabitants of the Greek peninsula.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

..."Greeks" at the time, K. They were all "Hellenes"...

Youse sez pertayto & I sez pahtahto.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:07 PM

We are not discussing Henry the 8th. Stick to the subject.
Does it matter what they thought of themselves? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:21 AM

It matters because your assertion above that 'There might not have been a Greek nation at the time but there were Greeks!' is not accurate in any emotional sense relevant to this thread. To take an instance of what I mean: suppose that in 2½k years a similar question should arise about some present European artefact held in an Oceania museum was requested back by the then pan-European government which represented a population largely consisting of interbreeders with various immigrant incomers from all over in the interim - you would have an analogous situation.

At the time of Pericles & Phidias & the building of the Parthenon; it was done, not by the Greeks as any sort of entity, but by the State of Athens, who were distinct culturally and politically from all the other City States - Corinth, Sparta, Mycenae, &c. It is unconvincing for the present Greek government to put in this claim solely on the grounds that they are directly descended purely from that Athenian entity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM

Waltz all you wish. My point is, those works were not made by the Turks, the British museum or Lord Elgin. So,
Who were they made by? Chinese?, Germans?

Look, there is a valid argument to be made on both sides. And, it all boils down to opinions.
I see both sides clearly. The museum has a legal claim to them and Greece has a moral claim. In this day and age, who is going to win?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

"I see both sides clearly"

Well, that is progress, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM

WHAT 'moral' claim do you take Greece to have?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:55 AM

I don't care what you call the ancient Greeks! Whatever their name, it was they who created the works, not the Turks, Germans, Chinese, Australians, Irish, Norwegians, Lapps, Japanese, or any other people.

It has been said that if you can't see the others point of view, you would make a good lawyer. That's not a compliment.

Maybe someday some rich American will buy Hadrians Wall like they did the old London Bridge. Can you imagine the discussion hundreds of years from now?

Did the Tsar have the right to sell Alaska to America? or the French to sell a huge portion of Indian land to America? Did America have a right to start a war with Mexico and confiscate another huge hunk of land? Do the native Americans have a moral right to that land? It's all opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

And not the Modern Greeks EITHER!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM

Like I said, Opinions. They are like assholes, everybody has one.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM

Most of us are expected to be able to distinguish between our arses and our elbows.

Likewise between an opinion & a fact...

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:06 PM

I agree. Too many people tend to spout opinions based on opinions instead of facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:43 PM

Kendall LOL you are acting like stole YOUR marbles!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:34 PM

Kendall, I think I am coming around to your point of view.

Let's give England back to the English and kick out all the descendants of William the Bastard who stole the country in 1066. A lot more recent that the Parthenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:42 PM

Now wait a minute! My ancestors came across with William in 1066. Why he chose to land in Hastings I will never know. The parking there is terrible!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:49 PM

LOL Kendal,

but you must agree that he stole England. Your ancestors would still be your ancestors had they stayed in Normandy.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:43 AM

Well, it depends on who's story you believe. It is pretty certain that Edward promised the throne to William in 1051, it is also true that Edward hated the Godwins with a passion, it is also true that Harolds claim to the throne was to say the least, tenuos, inthat his only claim was the Edward was married to his sister and it looks very much like the marriage was never consummated anyway. So, there are some people who consider that Harold was in fact a usurper, and William was the rightful king.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:19 AM

My first wife's maiden name was Godwin. Maybe I should be king?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:20 AM

Ah Michael, we are too humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

The big devour the small.
the rich devour the poor.
The strong devour the weak.

It's the law of the jungle. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

Mosquitoes drink the blood of the mightiest
The smallest virus can bring down the great.
In the end, the ants and worms devour us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM

And, the smallest dog can piss on the biggest building.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:12 PM

...The big devour the small.
the rich devour the poor.
The strong devour the weak.

It's the law of the jungle. Live with it...

You're right Kendall They devoured England and England devoured the marbles;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 10:16 PM

ah that;s the richard bridges i was used to, supporting imperialist military capitalism. i was worried he was going soft.

the turks got"title" by conquest, never legitimate, and the british got "title" through exploitation of greeks turks and the use of imperial money and authority. they may have legally recognized title but no moral title whatsoever.

elgin was an imperial con man, flimflamming the locals by exploiting his superior wealth and by recognizing the turks military conquest--all while his own government was supporting greek independence.

these kind of deals always arise from unequal bargaining positions which come from military and money. they should give them back, but then the british should pay reparations to people all over the world for their enslavement murder and abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM

Well, it depends on who's story you believe. It is pretty certain that Edward promised the throne to William in 1051, it is also true that Edward hated the Godwins with a passion, it is also true that Harolds claim to the throne was to say the least, tenuos, inthat his only claim was the Edward was married to his sister and it looks very much like the marriage was never consummated anyway. So, there are some people who consider that Harold was in fact a usurper, and William was the rightful king.

Actually, that's bollocks, Silas. Edward can promise anything he wants. Primogenture is not the law, and the wish of the king even less binding. It's true that the Witan usually confirms the son of the king getting the crown, but it isn't given.

As for the crown being promised to some foreign git that's no blood relation? No sirree, not under Englisc Law. "William had a tenuous blood claim through his great aunt Emma (wife of Ethelred and mother of Edward). William also contended that Edward, who had spent much of his life in exile in Normandy during the Danish occupation of England, had promised him the throne when he visited Edward in London in 1051. Further, William claimed that Harold had pledged allegiance to him in 1064: William had rescued the shipwrecked Harold from the count of Ponthieu, and together they had defeated Conan II, Duke of Brittany. On that occasion, William had knighted Harold; he had also, however, deceived Harold by having him swear loyalty to William himself over the concealed bones of a saint."

Hated the Godwins? I'd like to see the evidence, please. He may have chafed under Godwin first, and under Harold second, but Edward was a weak king who would have been dominated by any magnate. I don't see how that becomes a justification for giving his crown away to whoever he felt like.

As an argument for the Norman Conquest, this holds about as much water as kendall's for the marbles... Oh, and Guest - Irish are you? Sounds like it. Bitter at the least and engaging in Mudcat's least favourite tactic - bitching behind anonymity.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:42 PM

Whether Kandall's point was a valid legal one or not, it certainly is a moral point, I still stand by my previous statement "I've always wondered why the British Museum doesn't make castings from them, return the originals and keep the copies."

That way, visitors to both Athens AND London could both enjoy them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:53 AM

Well Raedwulf, you may well be right. I haven't said that I agree with the proposition, I was just pointing out the 'alternative' take on the conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

I watched another program yesterday on Egyptian artifacts. The museum in Georgia has the mummy of Ramses the first and they are about to return it to Egypt.
Germany has a bust of Nefertiti but they are not willing to send it back.

All they want is the stuff that was taken out of Egypt illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM

Yeah, well Egypt has a helluva nerve. Its "finders keepers", ain't it?

Do pick up a copy of Sharon Waxman's book Loot: The Battle over the Stolen Treasures of the Ancient World 2008 , Kendall. You'd love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 01:25 PM

The Museum of Natural History in NYC has a smilar "problem" with the Willamette Meteor. Did the owner of the land on which the meteor was found have the right to sell a Native American religious artifact? Legally, yes. Morally? That's up for debate and in the courts.
Add to the dilemma, the Museum just spent millions renovating and using the meteor as the centerpiece for the new exhibit.

Is there a museum anywhere which does not own disputed art? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 01:55 PM

The love of money is the root of all evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 01:38 PM

I for one wish the historic paper artifacts of Egypt that were recently lost in a museum fire in Cairo had been housed in Britain, or in the Smithsonian, or almost anywhere but under a military regime in a country in chaos. Such artifacts belong to the people of the world, not just the present-day Egyptians. The Elgin artifacts and numerous other "looted" and priceless relics of our human culture are far more important than the recent claims of national pride by various governments, and in my mind transcend the value of such shaky and temporary entities. And despite a legacy of democracy, almost no government is shakier than that of Greece.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

How about we give California back to Mexico?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

Now THAT's not a bad idea, Cap! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:40 PM

AHEM. We'll take Calleeforneeah. Summer here... winter there. Works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:31 PM

Do not, BTW, my fellow-countrymen, get taken in by all these myths about the Californian climate. I have been twice to LA, 6 months apart, October 2003 and April 2004.

IT PISSED WITH RAIN BOTH TIMES ~~ a miserable time was had by all. You try looking at all those bollocky paving stones along Hollywood Blvd with the water pouring in a stream down your collar!.

What would the Mexicans want with the horrible place anyhow?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:37 PM

...How about we give California back to Mexico? ...

A better idea would be to make Mexico a State.

What is not so widely known is that British Museums are wont to steal from the British as well.

The Arnold Company made the first production line of Motor Cars in Britain. They loaned one to The Science Museum, from there it was sent to Scotland for safekeeping during WWII. Then they lost the paperwork and now refuse to return it to The Arnold Family.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:47 PM

MtheGM how long were you in California? Seems humorous to hear a Brit complain about rain!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 01:05 AM

Kendall ~~ was in Calif several days, visiting dear friends in Santa Monica. We had several fine days; but also, both times, days of heavy rain of a sort which our hosts assured us didn't happen there in the normal course of events. I told them, if ever they had a serious drought, don't do a rain dance, just send for the GMs ~~ that never failed to bring the heavenly precipitative irrigations...

Loved the West just the same, mind. Just pointing out that the weather in Southern Cal not always as idyllic as the myth would have it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 01:11 AM

... and as to your 'humorous to hear a Brit complain about rain' -- cannot you see that, when we go to California to escape from our rain, it seems reasonable to complain that we find it there after all, waiting for us, when we have come all that way for a change from our climate, only to find...

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 07:17 AM

I didn't realize that you went there just to escape rain. :-)

The best things I have found in California are the Redwoods, Utah Phillips, Open Mike and Amos.