BS: Stolen Greek art

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 07:17 AM

I didn't realize that you went there just to escape rain. :-)

The best things I have found in California are the Redwoods, Utah Phillips, Open Mike and Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 01:11 AM

... and as to your 'humorous to hear a Brit complain about rain' -- cannot you see that, when we go to California to escape from our rain, it seems reasonable to complain that we find it there after all, waiting for us, when we have come all that way for a change from our climate, only to find...

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 01:05 AM

Kendall ~~ was in Calif several days, visiting dear friends in Santa Monica. We had several fine days; but also, both times, days of heavy rain of a sort which our hosts assured us didn't happen there in the normal course of events. I told them, if ever they had a serious drought, don't do a rain dance, just send for the GMs ~~ that never failed to bring the heavenly precipitative irrigations...

Loved the West just the same, mind. Just pointing out that the weather in Southern Cal not always as idyllic as the myth would have it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:47 PM

MtheGM how long were you in California? Seems humorous to hear a Brit complain about rain!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:37 PM

...How about we give California back to Mexico? ...

A better idea would be to make Mexico a State.

What is not so widely known is that British Museums are wont to steal from the British as well.

The Arnold Company made the first production line of Motor Cars in Britain. They loaned one to The Science Museum, from there it was sent to Scotland for safekeeping during WWII. Then they lost the paperwork and now refuse to return it to The Arnold Family.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:31 PM

Do not, BTW, my fellow-countrymen, get taken in by all these myths about the Californian climate. I have been twice to LA, 6 months apart, October 2003 and April 2004.

IT PISSED WITH RAIN BOTH TIMES ~~ a miserable time was had by all. You try looking at all those bollocky paving stones along Hollywood Blvd with the water pouring in a stream down your collar!.

What would the Mexicans want with the horrible place anyhow?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:40 PM

AHEM. We'll take Calleeforneeah. Summer here... winter there. Works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

Now THAT's not a bad idea, Cap! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

How about we give California back to Mexico?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 01:38 PM

I for one wish the historic paper artifacts of Egypt that were recently lost in a museum fire in Cairo had been housed in Britain, or in the Smithsonian, or almost anywhere but under a military regime in a country in chaos. Such artifacts belong to the people of the world, not just the present-day Egyptians. The Elgin artifacts and numerous other "looted" and priceless relics of our human culture are far more important than the recent claims of national pride by various governments, and in my mind transcend the value of such shaky and temporary entities. And despite a legacy of democracy, almost no government is shakier than that of Greece.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 01:55 PM

The love of money is the root of all evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 01:25 PM

The Museum of Natural History in NYC has a smilar "problem" with the Willamette Meteor. Did the owner of the land on which the meteor was found have the right to sell a Native American religious artifact? Legally, yes. Morally? That's up for debate and in the courts.
Add to the dilemma, the Museum just spent millions renovating and using the meteor as the centerpiece for the new exhibit.

Is there a museum anywhere which does not own disputed art? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM

Yeah, well Egypt has a helluva nerve. Its "finders keepers", ain't it?

Do pick up a copy of Sharon Waxman's book Loot: The Battle over the Stolen Treasures of the Ancient World 2008 , Kendall. You'd love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

I watched another program yesterday on Egyptian artifacts. The museum in Georgia has the mummy of Ramses the first and they are about to return it to Egypt.
Germany has a bust of Nefertiti but they are not willing to send it back.

All they want is the stuff that was taken out of Egypt illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:53 AM

Well Raedwulf, you may well be right. I haven't said that I agree with the proposition, I was just pointing out the 'alternative' take on the conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:42 PM

Whether Kandall's point was a valid legal one or not, it certainly is a moral point, I still stand by my previous statement "I've always wondered why the British Museum doesn't make castings from them, return the originals and keep the copies."

That way, visitors to both Athens AND London could both enjoy them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM

Well, it depends on who's story you believe. It is pretty certain that Edward promised the throne to William in 1051, it is also true that Edward hated the Godwins with a passion, it is also true that Harolds claim to the throne was to say the least, tenuos, inthat his only claim was the Edward was married to his sister and it looks very much like the marriage was never consummated anyway. So, there are some people who consider that Harold was in fact a usurper, and William was the rightful king.

Actually, that's bollocks, Silas. Edward can promise anything he wants. Primogenture is not the law, and the wish of the king even less binding. It's true that the Witan usually confirms the son of the king getting the crown, but it isn't given.

As for the crown being promised to some foreign git that's no blood relation? No sirree, not under Englisc Law. "William had a tenuous blood claim through his great aunt Emma (wife of Ethelred and mother of Edward). William also contended that Edward, who had spent much of his life in exile in Normandy during the Danish occupation of England, had promised him the throne when he visited Edward in London in 1051. Further, William claimed that Harold had pledged allegiance to him in 1064: William had rescued the shipwrecked Harold from the count of Ponthieu, and together they had defeated Conan II, Duke of Brittany. On that occasion, William had knighted Harold; he had also, however, deceived Harold by having him swear loyalty to William himself over the concealed bones of a saint."

Hated the Godwins? I'd like to see the evidence, please. He may have chafed under Godwin first, and under Harold second, but Edward was a weak king who would have been dominated by any magnate. I don't see how that becomes a justification for giving his crown away to whoever he felt like.

As an argument for the Norman Conquest, this holds about as much water as kendall's for the marbles... Oh, and Guest - Irish are you? Sounds like it. Bitter at the least and engaging in Mudcat's least favourite tactic - bitching behind anonymity.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 10:16 PM

ah that;s the richard bridges i was used to, supporting imperialist military capitalism. i was worried he was going soft.

the turks got"title" by conquest, never legitimate, and the british got "title" through exploitation of greeks turks and the use of imperial money and authority. they may have legally recognized title but no moral title whatsoever.

elgin was an imperial con man, flimflamming the locals by exploiting his superior wealth and by recognizing the turks military conquest--all while his own government was supporting greek independence.

these kind of deals always arise from unequal bargaining positions which come from military and money. they should give them back, but then the british should pay reparations to people all over the world for their enslavement murder and abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:12 PM

...The big devour the small.
the rich devour the poor.
The strong devour the weak.

It's the law of the jungle. Live with it...

You're right Kendall They devoured England and England devoured the marbles;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM

And, the smallest dog can piss on the biggest building.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

Mosquitoes drink the blood of the mightiest
The smallest virus can bring down the great.
In the end, the ants and worms devour us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

The big devour the small.
the rich devour the poor.
The strong devour the weak.

It's the law of the jungle. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:20 AM

Ah Michael, we are too humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:19 AM

My first wife's maiden name was Godwin. Maybe I should be king?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:43 AM

Well, it depends on who's story you believe. It is pretty certain that Edward promised the throne to William in 1051, it is also true that Edward hated the Godwins with a passion, it is also true that Harolds claim to the throne was to say the least, tenuos, inthat his only claim was the Edward was married to his sister and it looks very much like the marriage was never consummated anyway. So, there are some people who consider that Harold was in fact a usurper, and William was the rightful king.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:49 PM

LOL Kendal,

but you must agree that he stole England. Your ancestors would still be your ancestors had they stayed in Normandy.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:42 PM

Now wait a minute! My ancestors came across with William in 1066. Why he chose to land in Hastings I will never know. The parking there is terrible!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:34 PM

Kendall, I think I am coming around to your point of view.

Let's give England back to the English and kick out all the descendants of William the Bastard who stole the country in 1066. A lot more recent that the Parthenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:43 PM

Kendall LOL you are acting like stole YOUR marbles!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:06 PM

I agree. Too many people tend to spout opinions based on opinions instead of facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM

Most of us are expected to be able to distinguish between our arses and our elbows.

Likewise between an opinion & a fact...

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM

Like I said, Opinions. They are like assholes, everybody has one.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

And not the Modern Greeks EITHER!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:55 AM

I don't care what you call the ancient Greeks! Whatever their name, it was they who created the works, not the Turks, Germans, Chinese, Australians, Irish, Norwegians, Lapps, Japanese, or any other people.

It has been said that if you can't see the others point of view, you would make a good lawyer. That's not a compliment.

Maybe someday some rich American will buy Hadrians Wall like they did the old London Bridge. Can you imagine the discussion hundreds of years from now?

Did the Tsar have the right to sell Alaska to America? or the French to sell a huge portion of Indian land to America? Did America have a right to start a war with Mexico and confiscate another huge hunk of land? Do the native Americans have a moral right to that land? It's all opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM

WHAT 'moral' claim do you take Greece to have?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

"I see both sides clearly"

Well, that is progress, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM

Waltz all you wish. My point is, those works were not made by the Turks, the British museum or Lord Elgin. So,
Who were they made by? Chinese?, Germans?

Look, there is a valid argument to be made on both sides. And, it all boils down to opinions.
I see both sides clearly. The museum has a legal claim to them and Greece has a moral claim. In this day and age, who is going to win?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:21 AM

It matters because your assertion above that 'There might not have been a Greek nation at the time but there were Greeks!' is not accurate in any emotional sense relevant to this thread. To take an instance of what I mean: suppose that in 2½k years a similar question should arise about some present European artefact held in an Oceania museum was requested back by the then pan-European government which represented a population largely consisting of interbreeders with various immigrant incomers from all over in the interim - you would have an analogous situation.

At the time of Pericles & Phidias & the building of the Parthenon; it was done, not by the Greeks as any sort of entity, but by the State of Athens, who were distinct culturally and politically from all the other City States - Corinth, Sparta, Mycenae, &c. It is unconvincing for the present Greek government to put in this claim solely on the grounds that they are directly descended purely from that Athenian entity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:07 PM

We are not discussing Henry the 8th. Stick to the subject.
Does it matter what they thought of themselves? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

..."Greeks" at the time, K. They were all "Hellenes"...

Youse sez pertayto & I sez pahtahto.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 10:47 AM

They didn't think of themselves as "Greeks" at the time, K. They were all "Hellenes", and could combine when needed as centuries against Troy; but that was 700 years earlier, & they remained their own entities nevertheless. The Parthenon Frieze, aka the Elgin Marbles, was a creation of the Athenians; who had an entirely different culture and weltanschauung from the Spartans or the Corinthians of the age. There is no direct traceable connection SFAIK between the Athenians of C5 BCE & the present inhabitants of the Greek peninsula.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:25 AM

OK Kendall

Henry VIII invited Holbein, a Flemish painter to do some work for him.

The paintings are now in the National Gallery in London. Who do YOU think they belong to?

Decendents of the King?, Decendents of Holbein?, The British Nation?, Flanders? Belgium?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:40 AM

Who created those works of art? The Turks? the British museum? Lord Elgin? There might not have been a Greek nation at the time but there were Greeks!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:24 PM

Lawyers applying different national laws while interpreting or ignoring international laws is probably at the heart of most legal purchasing of art.

Greece would seem to have less art stolen than Egypt has.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

Aint semantics fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:08 PM

No, kendall, there's no rub. As has already been pointed out, the modern Greek state may have a cultural claim to the Marbles, but they cannot possibly have a legal claim, since their state did not exist in any legally recognisable form prior to the removal of said Marbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:43 AM

"Legally purchased", ah, there's the rub.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:10 AM

Of course, EB. Hope I have done so, at least by implication, above.

Which in no way obviates the complete irrelevance of all these refs to current legislation, which have about as much to do with it all as the Book of Maccabees to the present situation in the Middle East... IMO they are in no way applicable — a mere pissing-down-wind distraction from the entire point of the thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 11:00 PM

How about the Greek people? That IS the subject of the thread. I am not sure they are entitled but am willing to consider all points of view. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:35 PM

Whose successors, EB? Phidias's? Pericles'? Elgin's? George III's?

These current disputatious 'rights' have no relevance to the topic of this thread.

As one of Shaw's characters put it as a sort of leitmotif: You think they do but they don't.

~M~