BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:58 AM

The way to solve the pension crisis

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:07 AM

you're still avoiding a rational discussion Bozo, do you actually have any information on which to base your first assertion that it was a nice day for lefties to strike and cause havoc, support your argument with facts and figures ............if you are capable of such

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:21 AM

"My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances."

Times have changed, Bozo, and life has passed you by. You've just demonstrated how far this tawdry government has gone in destroying the teaching profession. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

Lets be honest - no party shows much respect for teachers.

Before the war they cut all teachers wages, some bloody pretence or another. Think of Shirley Williams saying that she didn't intend to listen union leaders opinions about salary structure, as their opinions were not worth paying attention to. Think of Keith Joseph telling blatant lies about how they had consulted with teachers for ten years before introducing the National Curriculum. The man was full of it.

This business of government finding ways to loot our pension funds should be stopped though - they simply have no right to this money. They get enough in tax, and they never explain properly how they are spending it.

Everyone pays tax. VAT on everything. Fuel tax. Unavoidable for most of us.

I don't think striking will do it. And no political party will forego getting their fingers in that honeypot.

Just for once wouldn't it be great if the unions got smart and took the bastards to court and challenged the legality of this embezzlement?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:51 AM

I really do hope Bonzo is just winding people up as usual, because if he isn't I wonder what contact he has with reality.

The point that these "every man for himself" mouth foamers miss is that most people in the public SERVICE (my capitals) have worked for years for not enormous sums, knowing, or thinking, that they have a safe, but NOT gold plated, pension at the end of it. It's called a contract - isn't it?

A close relative of mine has given her career to the NHS since the age of 17, and is now nearly 60 and in a highly responsible position. A couple of years ago she had had her pension contributions increased and her retirement date put back - she reluctantly accepted this. Now, once more, she is faced with having to work longer for less pension, and pretty damn annoyed at being cheated by shysters like Cameron, Osborne and Maude. I note that THEY still have their gold plated final salary pension scheme and no doubt, nice big trust funds from Daddy. But of course, we're all in this together, aren't we George. George?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:46 AM

Hey Bonzo, are you related the Jeremy Clarkson by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:52 AM

Oh c'mon. Clarkson deserves punishment and ostracism - but not THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 09:04 AM

"My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances."

Firstly, very many of the P.S.workers who struck yesterday were doin it for the first time in their lives in some cases; for the first time in 25+ years. So until yesterday, they were in the same group.

In the second place, there are very large numbers of conservative/Conservative teachers who have learnt, and teach, obediance to authority. While other teachers teach critical judgment and an independant attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:06 AM

poor sad bonzo..

he can be as obnoxiously provocative as he likes;

but who is he most likely going to need to cut his toe nails, give him baths and wipe his arse
10 years or more from now... ???

.. that is if there is any form of civilised 'Care worker' system left in existence after our nation
has been so ruthlessly asset stripped
by current government ????

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

He said that'd be done privately.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:18 AM

so let's all hope his trust and faith in private insurance plans and house market value
are well founded and to be properly honoured in his older age..

but who can predict the next few global Financial institution money crises...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:01 PM

I know it's not a popular concept once one of these gets going, but how about you all get back to posting more about the issues, as some have done, rather than sniping? Regardless of a person's postings, en masse bullying isn't pretty from any sector.

Thanks,

kat - moderator

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

"My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances."

I rather suspect he might be misjudging them.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:07 PM

With all due respect, dear mod, Bozo has never honestly (well, hardly ever) debated an issue in the whole of his mudcat existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:40 PM

That's not the point, Richard, and has been discussed ad nauseum. The point is grouping up and sniping.

Let's get back to the discussion of issues and what folks have actually done about them.

kat - mod

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM

The present pension arrangements were negotiated and agreed and settled back in 2008.   So the people affected by them are now expected to accept that they should now be torn up and worse terms imposed in place of them.

It's a bit as if the people you bought your furniture from couple of years ago turned up on your doorstep demanding extra payment, or they'd come in and smash up your place.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:21 PM

"poor sad bonzo..

he can be as obnoxiously provocative as he likes;

but who is he most likely going to need to cut his toe nails, give him baths and wipe his arse
10 years or more from now... ???"

What a fucking joke!......have you ever been inside a "care" home lately...or read the newspapers?

They're more likely to rifle through his drawers than wipe his arse, feed him, or give him any form of stimulation.

We should be ashamed of how we treat our old people, as far as I can see they are looked upon as money on legs, foced to sell their homes an use all their saving to keep themselves alive.

I visit homes in our area, and all are poor....some are disgraceful.

I went to visit one of my old female teachers, who had just been served "dinner"
A brown rock hard 4" square surrounded by what had once been chips,
When I enquired what it was, the "care" worker replied without a blush....."La-san-ya!"

Money controls everything, to most folks, their space and consumerist lifestyle takes precedence over the welfare of their elderly parents......whats the point of an extended life expectancy when that life is empty and worthless?

I we are going to strike, why is it not about the REAL poor, those struggling on min wage...or part time work with no union to hype up a glorified holiday.....we dont need a strike, we need a fuckin' revolution....in the way we think.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM

hi

Thanks Kat.

One of the problems is that the use of statistics used "modified" to suit the situation.

For instance the present Government claim that all Public service workers get gold plated pensions is really not true.

The figur quoted below of £4000 per annum is very low by any standards. I have seen £5000 quoted but hell that is low too. Mt State pension is higher than that !!!

The gold-plated figur includes senior management and executive staff who will receive from £50000 per annum.

These are not the people who have been selected to have their pensions cut.

As usual in all the political issues we are never actually comparing apples with apples.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: paula t
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:31 PM

I was quite "amused" by Cameron talking about a teacher earning £37000 a year. I haven't got anywhere close yet....and I've been teaching since 1982!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:39 PM

You should remember that Cameron would see someone earning £37,000 a year as just about scraping by... He wouldn't get out of bed for that kind of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:27 PM

hi akenaton ..

my mother is a retired care home assistant.
She was a worker at the lowest paid rung of the hierarchy
who spent most of her working life wiping arses and washing intimate body regions, day noon and night
[24 or more hour shifts sometimes].

She held that job for years never losing sight of her constant genuine respect and affection for the often cantankerous old folk
who'd been dumped by their reasonably well off families.

- and my mum was still grafting hard at work for very little financial reward well into her 60's..

..with no union to support and protect her...

I recall it may well have been a private 'residential care home',
scamming as much out of the public purse the owners could get away with,
until suddenly closing down overnight to reap the benefit of rising property values.

She was pensioned off about 15 years ago, replaced with cheap young 'trainees'.
Even then that was still some kind of elderly care system
to be relatively proud of.

We soon had hopes dashed a returning Labour Govt would be an improvement..

My mother's generation of underpaid skivvies has been seriously let down in retirement
by successive Govts as much as any financially much better off pensioners with a sense of self righteous grievance.

She's nearly 80 now, no savings, no ownership stake in our 'family home' of more than 40 years
- ie. the council house that the privatised housing agency is trying so hard to bully her into giving up..

Noone in our family has managed to earn enough significant savings or fund private investment plans,
[only a handfull of us left alive - with our own 'fair share' of health problems and disabilities..]
and I am just scared what will happen to my mother
and how we will cope in the next few years..

So yes, it is a very bleak future to look forward to getting older in post Cameron UK...

My wife has the only 'decent' salary in our immediate family.

She is a public sector education worker.
It's a real concern how much longer her health will survive the unremitting increasing workload and longer hours
and pressure being heaped upon her in the short while since the tories got back in.

It's no help that the school Head had a career in business
and only a few short years teaching experience
before promotion.
This Head is remorselessly unsympathetic or supportive,
and now seems to be hell bent under this new regime
on impressing LEA superiors with how tough she can be
sqeezing far more work out of long serving dedicated staff.

Cameron's tory Govt seriously believes it can get away with forcing ageing front line public sector workers to work more years until retirement,
while piling on the grinding stress that will cause so many high quality loyal public servants
to either drop dead prematurely at work,
or quit through ill health to take early retirement
at reduced pension rates !!!!???


and apologies to mudcat mods if it's not always so clear
where the 'discussion' dividing line lays between 'issues'
and personalised disagreements founded through bitter experience...

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:58 PM

.. and it's worth mentioning that in recent years,
more than a few dodgy Private sector elderly care nursing homes
in the South West coast region have been closed down.

To be reopened shortly afterwards as rehab clinics !!!
because creaming off these lucrative Public sector grants is far more profitable
than previous bread and butter age care grants...

So who knows what the welfare future holds for any of us now over 50...???

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:01 PM

Of course, the dire financial state of the UK is absolutely nothing to do with "the bankers" at all. You are aware of course that 20% of the treasury take on taxes comes from the City of London!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM

Since the whole of UK corporation tax plus business rates only comes to 12% of government revenue, (source: HM Treasury), I think this claim must be justified with publicly available figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:17 PM

Must????? Sorry I don't do justification!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:27 PM

PFR is right.

Bozo is probably guilty of terminological inexactitude - and certainly cowardice if he will not step up to the plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:44 PM

"don't do justification!!"

..neither do you do empathy, compassion, humility, remorse.....

in fact any of the usual personal attributes or values that positively distinguish a psychologically well functioning individual
from a completely maladaptive sociopath...


but never mind.. eh.. as long as your 3 legged mutt still loves you.. ???


and yet despite all your unpleasant ill spirited abuse of public sector workers..

when life gets seriously shit,
there will always be good kind charitable public spirited folk
in most communities,
genuinely concerned and willing and prepared step forward to offer unconditional succour and help
to even the meanest of people..

my old mum's a bit like that.. takes in stray abused dogs
and feeds and tries to heal them no matter much they resist, claw and bite..

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:55 AM

It appears that a good number of strikers went xmas shopping on the strike day - that's not striking, that is skiving and absolutely disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:22 AM

Francis Maude's publicly funded pension is £43,825 a year with a pot of £731,883
David Cameron's publicly funded pension is £32,978 a year with a pot of £550,725
George Osborne's publicly funded pension is £32,978 a year with a pot of £550,725
Nick Cleggs's publicly funded pension is £28,404 a year with a pot of £440,000
Eric Pickles' publicly funded pension is £43,825 a year with a pot of £731,883
Vince Cable's publicly funded pension is £39,551 a year with a pot of £660,507
Andrew Lansley's publicly funded pension is £39,551 a year with a pot of £660,507
Danny Alexander's publicly funded pension is £26,404 a year with pot of £440,942


Posted by a Facebook friend who is a journalist of long standing.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:34 AM

You've been caught with your pants down. You thought you could make up figures to discomfit opposition. You're not just stupid and spectacularly envious, you're a liar. You also live on public handouts while condemning others who do. You are therefore unprincipled.

If you put up proof of your statement I will withdraw and apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:23 AM

Mr Burke seems to take life so seriously!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:30 AM

Ah, the Clarkson Defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:14 AM

A point. How does one nail the lie that teaching and local government pensions are "unaffordable"? Teachers pay in more than is paid out by the government each year, so do local government workers.
The proposed 3% extra contribution will all go to the treasury as a stealth tax, and the government refuses to release the figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

"Never apologise, never explain" - contemptible when John Wayne's character said it, and still contemptible in this thread...
.........................

As for going shopping on a strike, it's interesting to recall that the original term used when the idea of a General Strike was invented back in the 1830s was "the Grand National Holiday". High time the name and the notion was revived.

We work to live, we don't live to work. Unless we are either crazy, or quite unusually lucky in the kind of work we are able to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Hi Kevin, slight thread creep, good letter in the paper today.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 04:35 PM

What gets me, is how many of these people bitching about working class wages, never bitch about the top 1% who skim trillions (trillions!) of dollars or pounds or euros off the top, and get away with it.

That's who you should be chastising, Mister 3legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Cats
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:00 PM

Thanks for the figures autolycus. Hope you don't mind them being copied

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM

Cats

Pleasure. Help yourself. I 'borrowed' them.

It now turns out the strike was not useless. It's produced a changed government offer to prevent more strikes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16081502

[I can't make blue clickies - I get a yellow star preventing me.]

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Silas
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM

"It appears that a good number of strikers went xmas shopping on the strike day - that's not striking, that is skiving and absolutely disgraceful."


Rubbish. The strikers were not getting paid so they can do just what the hell they like in their own time - what do you expect them to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:53 AM

Yes - skiving isn't it???

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Silas
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:59 AM

Listen tripod, they are not getting paid - how can they be skiving?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

No. A strike is a unilateral withdrawal of labour to further a dispute with an employer (or n this case a controller of an employer) - exactly what happened whether the strikers went on otherwise to protest or not.

Maybe you should expend some of your vaunted wealth to buy a dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:06 AM

One definition of slavery is your own time is not your own. That's evidently how Bonzo sees people in employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:00 AM

Glad everyone's picked up on the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:27 AM

At least the bankers don't strike - they work very long hours indeed. Highly paid - yes, but secure investment into the UK. Do they pay tax? - well yes, an example from a client's tax calculation - income £850k.............tax payable £450k!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:26 AM

The bankers.. poor beggars.. working such very long hours indeed to only take home a pitiful £400k after tax...

and my mrs only works the approx regular equivalent of 12 hours a day
including all the ever increasing admin work she has to bring home to do on her laptop..

.. and she doesn't pay anywhere near a fair fraction of all that tax payable £450k amount
out of her capped and decreasing in real value lower ranking public servant's salary..????

lazy selfish cow..
she should jolly well be more sympathetic to the plight of overworked bankers..!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:40 PM

Why do you respond to bozo the unprincipled liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

What a nice friendly egg you are burke, thankyou so much for your kind words.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:58 PM

I've told you how you can demonstrate that I'm wrong. You could alternatively apologise for lying, and refrain from doing so in future.

As for unprincipled, that you will live as you preach others should is too much to hope for. You will, I expect, continue to claim your State handouts and keep complaining that others do likewise. Note that my accusation does not relate to accepting benefits.

As for not being friendly, I have many good, generous, honest, principled, interesting and talented friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:59 PM

100 before Leadwhatsits sees it.