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BS: germany calling

The Sandman 05 Dec 11 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 05 Dec 11 - 01:17 PM
The Sandman 05 Dec 11 - 01:27 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 11 - 02:07 PM
The Sandman 05 Dec 11 - 02:16 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Dec 11 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 05 Dec 11 - 02:37 PM
MartinRyan 05 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 11 - 02:49 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 11 - 03:07 PM
The Sandman 05 Dec 11 - 03:08 PM
The Sandman 05 Dec 11 - 03:15 PM
michaelr 05 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 05 Dec 11 - 03:33 PM
gnomad 05 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Dec 11 - 05:25 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 11 - 06:06 PM
The Sandman 05 Dec 11 - 06:18 PM
Bill D 05 Dec 11 - 06:31 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 11 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 05 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM
The Sandman 06 Dec 11 - 06:09 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM
The Sandman 06 Dec 11 - 07:51 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM
gnu 06 Dec 11 - 08:45 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Patsy 06 Dec 11 - 08:52 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Dec 11 - 08:55 AM
The Sandman 06 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM
The Sandman 06 Dec 11 - 09:08 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM
The Sandman 06 Dec 11 - 10:31 AM
The Sandman 12 Dec 11 - 06:20 AM
Acorn4 12 Dec 11 - 07:54 AM
The Sandman 19 Dec 11 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Teribus 19 Dec 11 - 04:19 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 20 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 21 Dec 11 - 03:55 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Dec 11 - 07:19 AM
The Sandman 22 Dec 11 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Yvonne 22 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM
gnu 22 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Dec 11 - 08:41 PM
gnu 22 Dec 11 - 10:17 PM
Joe Offer 23 Dec 11 - 04:02 AM
The Sandman 23 Dec 11 - 07:42 AM

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Subject: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 12:59 PM

is IRELAND Involved in an economic attack from Germany?


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 01:17 PM

Any links or info to provide? Or are we all just supposed to know what the hell you're talking about???


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 01:27 PM

do you never listen to world news, there is a world outside america, part of it is called europe, have you heard of a currency called the euro?


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:07 PM

No need to be snotty, GSS.

I listen to and read plenty of world news every day, particular economic news these days, and no, I haven't heard about this, so what ARE you talking about?

Provide a little more information, or a link to a news source.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:16 PM

o for fecks sake.Iam not snotty, just realistic you clearly do not know what has been happening in finacial terms in europe. here we are
Urgent statement needed on reported disclosure of Irish budget plans to German parliament - McGrath
Posted on 17/11/11 by Michael McGrath

Fianna Fáil Finance Spokesperson Michael McGrath has said the Minister for Finance Michael Noonan needs to urgently make a statement on reports that details of Ireland's budget plans for 2012 were revealed to the German parliament yesterday.

Deputy McGrath stated, "It is being reported that a document presented to the budget committee of the German lower house of parliament revealed that Ireland will raise its top rate of Vat to 23% in the budget on 6th December.

"According to the reports, members of the German parliament have been given details of the Irish budget three weeks before the Irish parliament and the Irish people. If this proves to be true, it would be a staggering and unprecedented breach of faith with the Irish parliament and Irish people on budget plans. It would represent a fundamental breach of established protocols in relation to the disclosure of budgetary measures.

"We need to know whether the Irish government has revealed the detail of its budget plans to the German budget committee. In addition to the reported planned Vat increase, what other information has been given the German authorities about the budget plans?

"The Minister now needs to clarify the precise nature of the budget information which has apparently already been given to German parliament. In addition, for what purpose was the information presented to the German budget committee yesterday?

"The Minister for Finance needs to make a comprehensive statement on this matter today."


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:37 PM

Would have thought this was of more interest in America anyway.
Aren't they all descended from Irish immigrants?
:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:37 PM

The Euro? Isn't that the funny money y'all use over there?

I know I've heard of Europe. It's just north of Africa - right?


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Daft thread - as if we had any Joyce in the Mater ...

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:49 PM

"....Iam not snotty, just realistic ..."

In this case, they are indistinguishable.

*I* try to follow the overall news, but not everyone is automatically up to date. I have no doubt there are many important US issues that YOU would not recognize an oblique reference to!

This is an international forum, so it's polite to be **clear** what you're on about.

**back to the regularly scheduled smug remarks**


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 03:07 PM

GSS, I AM up on world economics, and even though I'm one of those pompous, self-centered Americans you complain about, I listen to a feed from the BBC every evening. And until now, I had not heard of this.

Perhaps you should have a chat with the BBC about their news coverage.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 03:08 PM

Daft thread - as if we had any Joyce in the Mater
very good, for our american friends some of whom may not have heard of the second world war, or william joyce or the programme germany calling
{William Joyce (24 April 1906 – 3 January 1946), nicknamed Lord Haw-Haw, was an Irish-American fascist politician and Nazi propaganda broadcaster to the United Kingdom during the Second World War. He was hanged for treason by the British as a result of his wartime activities, even though he had renounced his British nationality and become a naturalised German. His British nationality was obtained by fraud, as he had lied about his place of birth on his application for a British passport. He claimed to have been born in Galway, even though he was born in New York. ,}
used to broadcast from germany a propoganda programme called germany calling


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 03:15 PM

I did not call americans pompous or self centred, Surely it is up to American broadcasters to keep americans up to date with world affairs.it is not the responsibilty of the bbc to let americans know about ireland,
the uk has anational broadcasting called the bbc, the republic of ireland is not part of the uk, it has its own broadcasting company called RTE, It has adifferent monetary currency from the uk , that currency is called the euro
The euro (sign: €; code: EUR) is the official currency of the eurozone: 17 of the 27 member states of the European Union. It is also the currency used by the Institutions of the European Union. The eurozone consists of Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain.[2][3] The currency is also used in a further five European countries (Montenegro, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Vatican City) and the disputed territory of Kosovo. It is consequently used daily by some 332 million Europeans.[4]


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

If confidential information from Ireland was revealed to the German administration, how is that an attack by Germany?


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 03:33 PM

" for our american friends some of whom may not have heard of the second world war"

We American all remember the Second World War. That's the one that so many good John Wayne movies were made about. As a matter of fact - if it wasn't for the Duke and the Good Ol USA y'all would be speaking German right now and this whole thread wouldn't have any reason to exist.

Just to set the record straight.....


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: gnomad
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

(Steps delicately around the steaming pile of accumulated recriminations)

Well, IF Mr McGrath's allegation that the budget details were disclosed in advance to the Germans is found to have some truth in it, then I would agree that this is a scandalous breach of protocol. If not, then not. The facts will doubtless emerge in time.

In the UK we are geographically closer to this matter than say the USA, and I do read a certain amount of the financial news, but this is the first report on this theme that I have read.

That the Germans and French might be seeking such information would not be surprising. They are both taking the situation with the Euro very seriously, the Germans in particular having a strong folk-memory of currency-collapse in the 20th century.

Of course a cynic might consider that their latest proposals are a step further towards the unification of Europe that has been the goal of various regimes over the last 2000 years or so. While the idea has a some appeal, I am wary of the way that each gang to promote it also believes that THEY should be in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:25 PM

I don't know if "snotty" is exactly right, but GSS, if I had read your article in your third post on my own I still would not have known what the heck you were talking about in your first.

The Irish administration leaking a budget detail to the Germans, while scandalous, is in no way an "attack" by Germany on Ireland. And wrapping that up in esoteric WWII references does nothing to shed any light.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 06:06 PM

France & Germany are in relatively good economic circumstances compared to a number of other countries, thus they worry (naturally) about others in the Eurozone dragging them down in a currency crisis.

Ireland may well be 'of interest' to Germany as they plot economic strategy. None of this particularly constitutes an 'attack' on anyone.

People DO look out for their own interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 06:18 PM

Ireland's Budget as revealed to the German Parliament - Full Text

The full document containing details of Ireland's Budget for 2012 which were leaked by the Gernamn Parliament may now be read here. These documents were provided by the Irish Government to the EU Commission on a confidential basis. Of particular interest is the Memorandum of Economic and Financial Policies contained in this document.

These documents were supplied to the EU Commission for consideration by senior Finance Ministry officials of the EU's Euro Group Working Group and Economic and Financial Committee in preparation for EU Finance Ministers' decision on the next disbursement of Bailout funds to Ireland. Because they were leaked in advance of Ireland's Budget being announced, they are now been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas in draft form
The full text may be accessed here (PDF 2.4MB).
This is an insult to Irish independence, how would the American like it if their budget was leaked and discussed to and by the Chinese , before the Americans had announced it and discussed it in their own parliament, the Americans would feel that they were a puppet governement, just because the Chinese had propped up their economy.
next point, the Americans did not single handedly win the second world war, in fact Jo [the battle of stalingrad]Stalin made just as big a contribution, along with the English, a kind of menage a trois


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 06:31 PM

"...the Americans did not single handedly win the second world war,..."

Of course not! No one said they did. But NOT helping could have made it very hard to win it!


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 07:11 PM

"next point, the Americans did not single handedly win the second world war, in fact Jo [the battle of stalingrad]Stalin made just as big a contribution, along with the English, a kind of menage a trois"

That kinna reminds me o' the twa Scottish sailors on board Nelsons "Victory" whin he sent oot yon message....."England expects every man to do his duty"
Wan turnt tae t'ither an sayed....well therr ye are Dugie, no' a word aboot puir auld "Scotty" attaw!....Thats gratitude fur ye!


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM

"...the Americans did not single handedly win the second world war,..."

OK, OK - you got me on that one. The Canadians helped. A little.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:09 AM

Ireland has lost control of its destiny decisions are being taken in another european country on its budget,
decisons are being made, so that the rich bond holders of anglo irish bank such as goldman sach, j p morgan are being protected, and the irish people the majority of whom were not the cause of this situation are being made to suffer. i call that an economic attack on the irish people, germany are administering the nasty medicine.
is it necessary, why are the rich bond holders being protected.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

I think that Dick's angle on this is a little narrow. Chancellor Merkel is punting a plan that all EU countries have to have their budgets approved at EU level, before adoption, to enable control of excess deficits. Sarkozy apparently approves. Cameron is in a cleft stick because his right wing wants to reduce EU control of member states whereas he wants to control rogue economic states (as he defines them) and to prevent meltdown of the Euro even though the UK is not part of the Euro.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:51 AM

it does not alter the fact that bond holders are being protected,and this is what is a big part of the problem, the cost of bailing out and protectong the anglo irish bond holders, these bondholders are not little old lady Oaps, but extremely rich banks, one of the bond holders owns a large part of a swiss bank, mean while social welfare has been cut in ireland, vat has been increased, and all to protect the anglo irish bond holders


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM

If you look at it from the point of view of the German taxpayer, it hardly looks like and attack. Ireland lived high on the hog for many years because of the Euro. The people of Ireland elected the governments that issued the bonds. If Ireland wants to continue to be part of the Euro, it must honor its fiscal obligations.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:45 AM

Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Wesley S - PM
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM

"...the Americans did not single handedly win the second world war,..."

OK, OK - you got me on that one. The Canadians helped. A little.

*********************************************************

" A little"??!!

You got some kinda fuckin nevre makin THAT statement. Read some fuckin hstory.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM

Gnu, I'm pretty sure he was joking.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:52 AM

It doesn't matter who knows what it's one heck of a mess we are all in here.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:55 AM

An it is all Obama's fault. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM

Between them they hold Anglo-Irish bonds with a face-value of €4,034,756,880. Shouldn't they take the hit rather than future generations of Irish taxpayers? Capitalism is a system of profit and loss, they took the risk of investing in Anglo-Irish Bank. Is the Irish government under pressure from the European Central Bank in Frankfurt to protect German investors?


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 09:08 AM

Did You Hear About The Time Germany Broke All The Eurozone Debt Rules And Then Begged For A Rule Change?
Joe Weisenthal | Dec. 6, 2011, 8:41 AM | 693 | 4

    A A A
   
    inShare15

Just a little perspective from Dan Greenhaus at BTIG, who talks about the stability pact and anti-deficit rules contained within the original Eurozone treaty.:

If you woke up today, you would think that Germany and France were the strongest adherents to this principle. However, we would once again remind clients that thanks to poor economic performance, including several negative quarters for GDP early in the previous decade, both Germany and France found themselves with deficits larger than the 3.0% limit. In fact, by 2003, just a few short years after the beginning of the Euro, France, Germany, Portugal, Greece and Italy had all violated the pact. Naturally, the Germans and the French got their house in order to demonstrate their commitment to the project, no?

In fact, they "bullied" the Ecofin Council into ignoring the transgressions and subsequently adjusted the pact so that deficits could exceed the target "temporarily." Imagine what would have been.

Along these lines, it's important to bring up a couple of good charts recently showing how all these countries got into so much debt trouble.

The first is this IMF chart (via A Fist Full Of Euros) showing why the public debt expanded for various countries over the last several years.

As it turns out, Germany has been the big fiscal stimulator and bank bail-outer. Italy has done very little, and almost all of its worsening debt can be associated to the rise in interest rates.

chart

And then this chart from Krugman explodes the myth that countries got into deep debt thanks to their aggressive welfare spending.

As you can see, there's basically no connection between the welfare spenders, and who is in debt trouble these days.

chart

Bottom line: Everyone's been a cheater, and looking for some moral explanation of why so and so is in trouble, and why so and so isn't, will not get you very far.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/did-you-hear-about-the-time-germany-broke-all-the-eurozone-debt-rules-and-then-begged-for-a-rule-change-2011-12#ixzz1flOeXeYB


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM

I agree that the Irish taxpayers should not be on the hook for a private bank. If that is the case.

I still would not call that an attack by Germany on Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 10:31 AM

Is the Irish government under pressure from the European Central Bank in Frankfurt to protect German investors?
and protect anglo irish bond holders who include goldman sachs, j p morgan, rothschild and co gestion , axa investment paris, efg bank luxenmourg sa,allianz global investors sa,brown shipley and co ltd, csam zurich, deustche asset management[dam]. frankfurttrust investment


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:20 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLAGC96JyvI&feature=share


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Acorn4
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:54 AM

Those bondholders are the ones who are holding pension funds so I suppose they've got to be a bit careful.

William Joyce called my home town of Leicester "that place of fish and chips" - cheeky sod!


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:58 PM

We paid millions to bondholders to advise us not to burn bondholders!

Parliamentary Question reveals Minster for Finance paid 6.2 million to bond traders Rothschild for advice on banking crisis

In a statement today Richard Boyd Barrett TD has expressed disbelief and outrage on receipt of an answer to a parliamentary question relating to outsourcing in government departments and the public sector generally.

An answer to a parliamentary questions revealed that in 2010 the NTMA paid put €6.2 million to bond traders and wealth managers Rothschild for advice to the Minister for Finance on how to deal with the banking crisis.

Deputy Boyd Barrett pointed out that this means that on the absolutely most important issue facing Ireland in terms of an unprecedented economic crisis and whether or not to pay off senior bondholders, the Irish government actually paid bondholders to advise them on what to do.

It is hardly surprising the representatives of bondholders advised the government to prioritise bondholders with devastating consequences for the country and for Ireland's economic future.

This raises the question of how long have we been taking advice from these private corporate interests and are we still.

It also raises questions about conflicts of interest when the state is taking advice from private interests with a stake in government decisions.

Were we, for example, taking advice from the Rothschild Group or other similar companies at the beginning of the crisis in 2008 and at the time the blanket bank guarantee was established?

It opens the door to corruption in public decision making when senior public officials are taking decisions that affect the public interest on advice from private sector golden circles. These senior public officials often end up working for these same private interests when they leave office.

Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach, making vital decisions on matters affecting the public interest and is now in the employ of a subsidiary of Helvetica Wealth, an asset management agency based in Switzerland.

Golden circles don't just operate at a national level but are tied to an international circle of bond traders and wealth asset managers who represent the interests of multi-billionaires. In this context is it any wonder then that the state has made the decision to ransom the country for bondholders.

In a statement today Richard Boyd Barrett TD said, "it is just outrageous that we have been taking financial advice from bondholders when we know the vicious austerity being inflicted on ordinary people is because of a decision to pay the bondholders. The bondholders are hardly likely to tell the government to burn the bondholders".

"It beggars belief that a government could be handing out 6.2million to an obscenely wealthy asset management group while at the same time planning to impose a charge of 100 on pensioners, the disabled and low income families in the form of the household charge and cutting the income of lone parents"
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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:19 PM

"Chancellor Merkel is punting a plan that all EU countries have to have their budgets approved at EU level, before adoption, to enable control of excess deficits."

Please correct me if I am wrong here but isn't this the same EU that has never ONCE in its entire existence declared, put together or audited a single budget concerning its own activities?

For "approved at EU level" read approved by France and Germany the sole beneficiaries of this cosy little club.

The Euro as a currency is doomed, only it doesn't realise that it is dead yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

Maybe this story didn't get the attention the Good Soldier thought it deserved. Like Gnomad I am in the UK and keep a reasonably close eye on the news. And like Gnomad I had seen no mention of this item.

Bill D, there is little similarity between the French and German economies. The former is in a greatly more parlous state than the latter. But then few nations in the west are sitting pretty these days, and those few don't include the UK or the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 03:55 PM

Peter K.

       G.S.S. is correct. "The Daily Telegraph" also mentioned this in an article some couple of weeks ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 07:19 AM

John from Kemsing, my comment was prompted largely by GSS asking: "...do you never listen to world news, there is a world outside america....?" In what sense was that question (or even the attitude behind it) correct?


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:30 AM

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Who are the Bond-holders?
Peter Sutherland
08/10/2010
Author:
Kieran Allen
'We must re-assure the bondholders about the economy'. This line is trotted out daily in the Irish media. But who are these bondholders? The strange feature of current debates is that the Irish people never get told to whom we are supposed to pay all these debts. Now, however, Socialist Worker can reveal who some of these powerful people are – and the results are quite surprising. Last Saturday the Financial Times published data on bondholders for Irish government debt. The figures relate to July 2010 when European banks were asked to provide information to the Committee of European Banking Supervisors as part of a stress test. Although the data is a few months old, we may reasonably assume that the pattern has not changed when interest rates shot up to 6.5%. It should be noted that the figures below pertain only to Irish state debt. We still do not know who the bondholders of Anglo-Irish or the wider banking system because this is supposed to be 'commercially secret' information. Read it carefully and you will get an insight into the shocking skulduggery that is going on here. TOP 10 BANKS WHO HOLD IRISH GOVERNMENT BONDS Royal bank of Scotland £4.3 billion Allied Irish banks €4.1 billion Bank of Ireland €1.2 billion Credit Agricole €929 million HSBC $816 million Danske Bank €655 million BNP Paribas €571 million Groupe BPCE €491 million Societe Generale €453 million Banco BP1 €408 million The Royal Bank of Scotland is owned by the British government and Peter Sutherland was one of its directors until 2009. Sutherland often lectures the Irish population on the need for cutbacks – but he never reveals this link. The big surprise, however, is that the two biggest bondholders are Irish Banks. The people of Ireland have already put €7 billion in these two banks – but they then screw us twice by lending back our own money at higher interest rates. Imagine working class taxpayers delivering billions at the front door of the bank and then the directors scurrying around the back door to lend us back our own money and to call for more sacrifices. It is time to end this madness now. The Last Card The Green Party have lost all credibility and face decimation at the polls. So in a desperate bid to seize the headlines, they have raised a call for a 'national consensus' between all parties. Meanwhile, Ed Washe, a former President of Limerick University and a right wing fanatic, has also called for a 'national government'. This, he suggested, would end the 'raucous noise' of parliament and might include such business heavies such as Peter Sutherland and Jim o Hara of Intel. This call for a national government or a consensus on four year budgets has dominated the media this week. It is the latest elite ploy to hoodwink the population and to prepare the ground for the most savage attack on living standards ever seen. But it is also further evidence of panic and weakness amongst the elite. They sense that the population are at breaking point and worry that 'the political system' will not cope. The whole purpose of a national government is to close down all real debate and promote'strong' leaders who can break the slightest opposition. It would restrict democracy and lay the basis for emergency laws to curtail strikes or mass demonstrations. In normal times, parliamentary debates do not cause great excitement among the population. A healthy cynicism means that many distrust politicians and so do not take their words seriously. But we no longer live in normal times and the Labour Party, in particular, has positioned itself to give some voice to the mood of protest sweeping the country. This voice is very muted and the party is terrified of being associated with any big, serious mobilisations lest these encourage the idea of 'people power'. So it TALKS about shifting the burden of adjustment away from the poor – but ensures that its friends among the union leaders do nothing to organise real opposition on the streets. However, the scale of the crisis is so deep that the rich are even terrified about the talk. They know that Irish politics is reforming on class lines and that Labour could emerge as the largest party. They understand that the leaders of Labour are loyal to capitalism and will not carry out any serious measures against the rich. But they fear that the expectations of their working class supporters will be raised and when Labour does not deliver these will start looking further to the left. Hence all the talk of a national government, a national consensus, or agreement on the parameters of a four year budget. It is an attempt to depoliticise society and appeal to a desire for experts to lead us out of crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: GUEST,Yvonne
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

Erm....the only reason America entered the war is because Pearl Harbour was bombed! We had been fighting for two years unaided by the USA before that, without any offer of assistance!

We owe far more to Canada and Australia than we ever do to America.

Sorry to interrupt your thread,GSS...


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM

Yvonne. It may not a matter of "owing more". Granted, the supply of equipment and troops by the US was a major factor in the outcome and especially the duration of both World Wars. What I find offensive is the general conception of many that Canada, Australia, France, Russia, Poland, India, Arab Nations... and others, did not contribute as much as the US when, as you have stated (regarding some), they did. But, again, the notion proferred by many that the US won the war is DEEPLY offensive to many.

For instance, my father, my ex father-in-law, four of my uncles and four of my aunts.

Don't get me wrong. Thank God for the good old USA (back then, at least), but there are some who need to read some history, as I have pointed out previously on various threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 08:41 PM

To be brutally precise, Yvonne, the US entered the war because Hitler declared war on the US. One show of Axis hubris too many, because it certainly tipped the balance against them. But the Allies would still have lost before the US got the chance to drop Herr von Braun's bombs, but for the Soviet Union seeing off some 170 Wehrmacht divisions, numbering several million troops. (Sorry to drift from the content, if not the title, of the thread.)


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 10:17 PM

Right... let's not get into a pissing match over this. Perhaps we could all just agree that ALL of us need to read some history and leave it at that?

Fact is, for me, it's something that is very personal. I just spent time with an uncle who just turned 90 and he again recounted his stories. I was reminded of the other stories I was told by those now gone.

The war(s) was "won" (???) by many people from many nations. Yes, it pisses me off when I read certain comments but if people read some history... well, maybe they might understand that NOBODY won the war... the war still goes on today... read a newspaper. Read a history book. Read my lips... the war will be here tomorrow. You choose how you wish to fight it or to fight war. Your choice.

Yes, that's naieve if you deem it to be. Your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 04:02 AM

I dunno, gnu. I was brought up in Wisconsin to understand that the Allies won World War II. I don't recall ever hearing that the U.S. won that war, although I'm sure you'll find some yahoos somewhere that will say just about anything. But in general, I think we're not as provincial as some people think we are.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: germany calling
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 11 - 07:42 AM

my apologies if i have offended any Americans. A number of countries contributed to winning world war 2, amongst them in no significant order, uk, america, soviet union, canada, French resistance[DE GAULLE ETC]


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