Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 06:33 PM

Re:BTW2 It looks as if your right and it's been removed Richard. 67187 is there - Joe Rae singing Owre the Muir Amang the Heather, but 67188 (the number for the Daemon Lover above) has gone.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 09:15 PM

Richard, I don't know who "Edward Ballinger Price" might be. Here is the reference from Roud above:

DAEMON LOVER
Source       Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D46 A 13         
Performer       Price, Edward Ballinger         
Place collected       USA : Rhode Island : Newport         
Collector       Flanders, Helen Hartness

This looks like it is at Middlebury College. All I've had access to is Flanders' ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND, Vol. III (1963). It does say that these are"From the Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection Middlebury College, Middlebury, Vermont."

The version from Ms. Price was collected by "M. Olney" and according to the entry above the one from Mr. Price was collected by H.H. Flanders herself. As near as I can tell there is no mention of Mr. Edward Ballinger Price in Vol. III of ANCIENT BALLADS. I'm afraid the answer to this lies buried somewhere at Middlebury College, unless someone out there has discovered otherwise.

I am aware that Flanders had published at least five other collections of folk songs/ ballads from the New England region. I had assumed that there was a lot of overlapping and repeating among these publications and that the ANCIENT BALLADS was the final and definitive version of things. That may not be an accurate assumption at all. I don't know very much about this. When I get back to the library, I will try to check out some of these other books to see what's going on there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 09:53 PM

Edith Ballenger Price has one other ballad in Vol. III of ANCIENT BALLADS, which is a version of Child 200, "The Gypsy Davey." Her version is entitled "Gypsum Davey" and looks very much like some Southern versions. This was collected from Ms. Price by M. Olney. The comment says: "learned from Esther Morton Smith, who was singing this ballad before Cecil Sharp had collected in the Southern Appalachians." No word on who Esther Morton Smith was. Perhaps there are additional notes on all of this somewhere, but what we have available in ANCIENT BALLADS is enigmatic to say the least.

I notice on her album "Dad's Dinner Pail", Debra Cowen has two songs collected from Edith Ballinger Price: "Bold Richard" and "Cruel Brother" (Child #11). These come from the Flanders Collection.

http://www.debracowan.com/DDP.html

I did find a preview of Flanders' BALLADS MIGRANT IN NEW ENGLAND on Google Books, but it is partial. While there are a number of songs and ballads from Rhode Island, none are from Edith (or Edward) Ballinger Price. The "Turtle Dove" version that we have mentioned above is in this collection.

http://books.google.com/books?id=fUenQQss7K0C&pg=PR14&dq=Helen+Hartness+Flanders&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JnUbT6j2Ksbc0QGnpvjWCw&ved=0CDcQ6

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:39 PM

First of all, an apology for acting like a ballad collector and giving Brian Peters' first name a number of different spellings! Sorry about that Brian.

Secondly, I Googled "Edith Ballenger Price." I thought I had done this. But obviously I had not. There is actually quite a bit of stuff out there on her. She was born April 26, 1897, and died September 29, 1997. She was an American author, who wrote a bunch of books, and she started the Brownie Scouts. Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_B._Price

http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:%22Edith+Ballinger+Price%22&source=gbs_metadata_r&cad=4

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Edith+Ballinger&x=0&y=0#/ref=sr_st?keywords=

And finally, from Google, this snippet:

"1. Ballads Migrant in New England - As sung by Miss Edith Ballenger Price of Newport, Rhode Island. Learned about 1910 when a small child, from the singing of a friend in Amherst, Massachusetts ....        "

I don't know what song this refers to, and it doesn't come up in the Google Book, but if I had to guess, I would say that this refers to the same information that we have about Price's source for "The Daemon Lover", that she learned it " as a young girl from "a lady living in Massachusetts, whose forebears came from England"." So, there may be more information out there on this woman/person from Amherst, MA, whose family may have come from "England" .

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:57 PM

Here is some more detailed information about Edith Ballinger Price:

http://nwda-db.wsulibs.wsu.edu/findaid/ark:/80444/xv52677

There is no mention in any of these materials about her being interested in ballads or about her having contributed any ballads to the Flanders' Collection. There is this reference: "Her other interests included gardening, ecology, playing violin and viola, restoration of historical sites, preservation of endangered species, involvement with humane societies and with the English Folk Dance Society."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 07:09 AM

Mrs. Ellen M. Sullivan of Springfield,VT, who gave Helen Hartness Flanders that most unusual version of "The House Carpenter", called "The Banks of Claudy", which was of some interest to Clinton Heylin in our discussion above, remembered this song from her childhood, growing up in County Cork, Ireland! Here is the Heylin discussion:

thread.cfm?threadid=141964#3284123

So this version comes out of a different stream of tradition, the "Irish", rather than the "Scotch-Irish".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:36 PM

Here I am, back at last, John - having just submitted my Tax Return with five days to spare!

Having read the above reference to an Irish tradition for this ballad, I thought you might be interested to see the text of the one Irish version that I know of. I don't have time to go into a comparison now, but will try later. 'The Banks of Sweet Viledee' appears on a cassette called 'Early Ballads in Ireland', sung in 1983 by one Frank Browne, from Ballingare, Co. Roscommon, who appears to have been a song collector rather than a source singer - I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that score. Cathy Jordan of Dervish learnt it directly from Mr. Browne, and if you want to get some idea of the tune, here are Dervish taking more than a few liberties with it. In Browne's rendition I can hear echoes of the magnificent tune that the Hammond brothers found with the fragmentary English version they noted from Marina Russell in the 1900s. It's closer to that than to the usual American tune, anyway.

THE BANKS OF THE SWEET VILEDEE

Well met, well met, my own true love
Well met, my love, by thee
I have just arrived from the salt, salt sea
And it's all for the love of thee, my love
And it's all for the love of thee

Now I could have married a great king's daughter
And have myself to blame
For it's tons of gold I have refused
And it's all for the love of thee, my love
All for the love of thee

Now if you could have married a great king's daughter
And have yourself to blame
I have married a house-carpenter
And I think he's a nice young man, my love
And I think he's a nice young man

If you do leave you house-carpenter
And come along with me
I'll take you to where the grass grows green
On the banks of the Sweet Viledee, my love
On the banks of the Sweet Viledee

If I do leave my house-carpenter
And go along with thee
What have you there to support me with
Or keep me from slavery, my love?
Or keep me from slavery?


I have six ships now sailing out
And seven more on sea
Three hundred and ten all jolly sailsmen
And they're all to wait on thee, my love
And they're all for to wait on thee

She dressed her baby neat and clean
And gave him kisses three
Saying, "Stay, stay here, my darling baby boy
And your father as company, my love
And your father as company"

She dressed herself in a suit of red
And her maiden's waist was green
And every town that they passed by
Sure, they took her to be some queen, my love
They took her to be some queen

We were not two days out at sea
And I'm sure we were not three
When this fair maid began to weep
And she wept most bitterly, my love
And she wept most bitterly

My curse, my curse, upon all seamen
Who brought me out on sea
And deprived me of my house-carpenter
On the banks of the Sweet Viledee, my love
On the banks of the Sweet Viledee

We were butt three days out on sea
And I'm sure we were not four
When this fair maid disappeared from the deck
And she sank to rise no more, my love
And she sank to rise no more

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 03:01 PM

Thanks, Brian. I was wondering what kind of tradition this ballad might have in Ireland.

Here is a note that I found on another thread from Debra Cowan (from 04 Oct 07) saying that she had been listening to a recording of Edith Ballinger Price, from the Flanders Collection, accompanying herself on the piano.

thread.cfm?threadid=105259#2163893

And here is an old thread ('99! with a last update from '07) on Helen Hartness Flanders:

thread.cfm?threadid=12997#2105107

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 04:08 AM

Brian asked me to pass on what I know of Frank Browne (thanks Brian)
This is the note to 'Vildee' from 'Early Ballads in Ireland' (a must for ballad buffs - soon to be issued on CD by the Goilin Singers Club nudge-nudge to all concerned)
"Frank Browne, aged about 70 (the cassette was issued in 1985) , farmer, Rathnollaig, Belnagare, Co. Roscommon, on June 1983 in the home of Bairbre O'Flynne, Dublin, who for some years recorded songs and folklore from Frank at his home and in Dublin. Apparently not recorded elsewhere in Ireland, but common in America, where Frank was born and lived to an early age."
We met Frank once when he was asked to sing at a ballad conference in Dublin. He appeared to have a reasonable repertoire of traditional songs and was well able to sing them.
As the note says, he was a farmer and could in no way be described as a collector, certainly no more than any traditional singer could be described as one (weren't all traditional singers 'collectors' in their own way?)
I have no knowledge of Frank other than that, but I'm sure Bairbre, who works at the Folklore Department at UCD, would be happy to pass on what she knows; the recordings of Frank, along with any information on him, should be housed at the archive there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 05:08 AM

Thank you Jim. Having listened to Frank Brown's extremely good and very traditional-sounding rendition of this ballad, I was sceptical about the idea that he was a collector. I should have known better than to trust the information on a record company's website. Here, for your amusement, is what Compass Records have to say about the ballad:

"The Banks of Sweet Viledee was discovered when Cathy Jordan spent a memorable afternoon with the late Frank Browne, from Ballingare, Co. Roscommon, one of the few song collectors from that county. He was the sole collector of the song which is also known as The Demon Lover and James Harris. The location of Viledee is unknown but it maybe a corruption of a particular place name. Frank died in early 1998 the song is dedicated this song to Frank's memory. There was a Maid in her Father's Garden was also collected from Frank Browne also and has a similar theme to The Banks of Sweet Viledee. It's known by several titles and is among the commonest English songs sung in Ireland, in which the usual starting point is the return of an unrecognised young man after a considerable length of time."

'The Demon Lover' was collected only once??

'Maid in her Father's Garden' has a similar theme???

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 05:51 AM

Oh dear!!
"'Maid in her Father's Garden' has a similar theme??? "
Just goes to show, you never know what's lurkin' behind them daffodils, d'ye!
In fairness, The Demon Lover has never turned up elsewhere in Ireland as far as I know, I half expected to find it from Travellers, but no luck.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for the additional information, Jim and Brian. And here is my best take on the "Price Version." I would be interested in your further comments.

I've been pondering the Price version of our ballad for several weeks now. I don't have anything much new to add, other than I'm a bit puzzled about why it hasn't created more discussion, since 1945! Of course I was puzzled about why the Willard copy hadn't created more of stir as well. Could one conclude that "ballad studies" are not a particularly hot item and haven't been for over half of a century?

I am not an expert in the British ballad traditions and don't know very much at all about the various manuscripts. I want to say at this point how much I miss Malcolm Douglas in these discussions! In any case, I want to try to sum up my observations on the Price version.

We know that Marguerite Olney collected this version, for Helen Hartness Flanders, from Miss Edith Ballenger (Ballinger?) Price of Newport, Rhode Island on October 23, 1945. Miss Price learned her version "as a young girl from a lady living in Massachusetts." In an introduction to another ballad in this collection, which was also obtained from Miss Price, it says she learned it " about 1910 when a small child, from the singing of a friend in Amherst, Massachusetts ...." We don't know for sure if this is the same person or an accurate dating for her "Daemon Lover," but we might assume that it is. When I can get to the library and look at some of Flanders' other books, I may be able to find out more about Miss Price and her friend from Massachusetts.

The next thing that we know about the "Price version" is that it is unique in the total collection of this ballad in North America. While the title, "Daemon Lover," shows up elsewhere, some of the details in the Price version do not show up anywhere else in North America as far as I know. Her version seems to overtly maintain not only a supernatural element, which is rare in North America, but also a diabolical element, with reference to the "cloven hoof." Here are some of the more remarkable verses:

"I've seven ships upon the sea,
Beaten with the finest gold,
And mariners to wait upon us;
All this she shall behold."

She set her foot unto the ship,
No mariners did she behold;
But the sail was o' the....
And the mast o' the beaten gold.
----
They hadna' been a league, a league,
A league but only two,
When she beheld his cloven foot,
From his gay robe thrusting through.

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only three,
When dark and fearsome grow his looks
And gurly grow the sea.

"Now hold your tears, my dearest dear,
Let all your weeping be
And I'll show ye how the white lilies grow
At the bottom o' the sea."
----
It would seem that Price's version comes closest to the Scottish (in differentiation from the "English" or "Scotch-Irish" traditions - please forgive me if I am mangling boundaries here!) traditions of this ballad, in which the supernatural and the diabolical are most pronounced. Clinton Heylin suggests that this version, along with the one it resembles most from Motherwell, come from earlier Scottish oral tradition. Gardner-Medwin, in her article, seems to suggest that it comes directly from Scott's book. However, as Richard Mellish, above, and Clinton Heylin himself point out, the word "gurly" is not found in the Motherwell/Scott version, but in another version from the Scottish oral tradition, from Kinloch.

In fact, when you compare Price's version with the version from Motherwell, which Heylin does on pages 83-84 of his book, one sees that while there are resemblances between the two suggesting that they may indeed have a common ancestor, they are different enough from each other to say that probably the Price version is not taken from the Motherwell version. Unless it has been significantly reworked. But that suspicion raises some other questions.

So, it is surely possible that the Price version does come from Scottish tradition. Motherwell's version was published in 1827, suggesting that he got his version from the oral tradition somewhat earlier, and if Price's version comes from the same milieu, then that would date it back to the early part of the 19th century. Both Heylin and Gardner-Medwin argue that there were earlier versions than the 1858 Andrews/De Marsan broadside printing in North America and suggest that they either came from Scotland or were influenced by the Scottish versions.

However, one might immediately ask, "why are there no other surviving examples like the Price version anywhere else in North America if such versions came over from Scotland between about 1750 and 1860?" Also, we just don't know when the Price version arrived on North American shores. Price says that she learned her song from a friend whose "family came from England." When did this "English" family come over? The unspoken implication would seem to be that it was fairly recently, since otherwise, what would be the point of mentioning this in the light of the fact that many, many families had "come over from England!" While there is no evidence to support it, this seems to point to a time more recent than 1827.

There is nothing to say that a Scottish version of "The Daemon Lover" could not have been preserved in England throughout the 19th century and then brought over to the United States later. However, just as there are no surviving examples of this form of the ballad in North America other than Price's, there also do not seem to be any in England either, other than what was already in print. I may be wrong about this. But the question remains, where did it come from, and when?

We know that Miss Price was born in New Jersey and grew up there, and then went to art school in Boston. In 1910, she would have been about 13 years old. It would be so interesting to know more about this "friend" but at this point I don't. However, we do know that Francis James Child had published Part VIII (Vol. 4, Part 2 of the Dover Edition) of his THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS in Boston in 1892, about five years before Miss Price was born. Child had died a year before Miss Price's birth. But the point is that his works were certainly current and available in the Boston/Amherst/Cambridge area in 1910. It is possible that someone with a literary training and background, both of which Miss Price possessed, could have skillfully crafted a "traditional" version of an old ballad, using nothing more than Child's work itself. We all know that this is not an uncommon or necessarily undesirable practice. This could have been done by either Miss Price or her "English" friend, or her English friend's "family". If only M. Olney or H.H. Flanders had asked a few more questions!

On the face of it, the Price version does not "look" like a compilation, but like a genuine surviving version of a somewhat Anglicized Scottish variant of "The Daemon Lover', or exactly what collectors would long to have found all over North America - but didn't. Heylin even suggests that this may be " the only real suggestion that the 'dæmonic' version might have once had a foothold in English tradition."

After trying to consider all of this carefully, I find myself still on the suspicious side of the argument. Too much time had elapsed for such a neat version to all of a sudden show up in Child's backyard a few years after his death. There is too much of a literary ambience surrounding this version. And there is a total lack of any other such versions in either the U.S. or Great Britain for the possible time frames involved, especially from "oral tradition." The Price version remains a somewhat suspicious enigma for me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 11:38 AM

Early on in this thread, I mentioned that there was a Cajun French version of "The House Carpenter" which has the line "On the banks of the Tennessee," in three verses. It was collected by Alan Lomax in 1934 and is called "J'ai marie un ouvrier" . Here is a link to the text with a translation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y51Pcgyqj14C&pg=PA155&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=dBTiTpi9Iajc0QGqkd3cBQ&sa=X

The fact that this version refers to the "banks of the Tennessee" probably means that it is derived either from the "Andrews/De Marsan" broadside of 1858, or from the tradition that precedes the printing of that broadside, or perhaps from a later oral tradition that incorporated elements from that broadside. It is also possible that this is a fairly late addition to the Cajun repertoire from the early country music world. Unfortunately, the Google Book selection is chopped. And I don't know what Alan Lomax might have said about this, since I don't have access to the liner notes.

However, I'm also wondering if there is any possibility that this ballad might actually have been appropriated by the French Acadians from their English neighbors before their exile from the Northeast beginning about 1755.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians

Such an early appropriation seems unlikely because of the reference to "the banks of the Tennessee", but we don't know for sure when that reference crept into the oral tradition. Surely it predates the printing of the broadside in 1858. Gardner-Medwin said: "by 1794 both the river and the state are called "Tennassee." So probably sometime between the latter part of the 1700's and the middle of the 1800's "the banks of the old Tennessee" became a phrase the back-country folks would have understood. But that seems too late for any Acadian connection up north. So when did this ballad enter the Cajun tradition?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 03:21 PM

Looking at my previous post, I think that the Cajun connection is too much of a reach. But I would be interested in knowing where the Cajuns got there version of "I Married A Carpenter" aka "The House Carpenter."

I came across this first page of a journal article - I can't access the whole article - that prints the tune for "The Banks of the Sweet Viledee" that Brian and Jim mentioned above:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/20522501

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 01:17 PM

In looking back over this discussion, I see that we have focused a good bit of attention on the two versions of "The House Carpenter" collected in the Northeast - both of them from the Helen Hartness Flanders Collection - which are the most "unique." Actually, neither of them was titled "The House Carpenter." One, from Ellen Sullivan, was called "The Banks of Claudy" and the other one from Edith Price, was called "The Daemon Lover." They are unique not only in relationship to all of the other versions that we have found from the Northeast, but also in relation to all of the other versions found in North America (including Canada). They are of interest because they supposedly preserve aspects of this ballad that are not found otherwise on the American side of the Atlantic, namely the supernatural and the diabolical dimensions.

However, just because both of these versions were "collected" in the Northeastern part of the United States, one from Springfield VT (Sullivan), and one from Newport RI (Price), does not mean that they are necessarily "American" versions of this ballad. In fact we know from Mrs. Sullivan and Miss Price that they were not American versions. Mrs. Sullivan learned "The Banks of Claudy" in her childhood in County Cork, Ireland. It is an Irish version of this ballad that she brought over with her to Vermont. And Miss Price learned "The Daemon Lover" from a "friend" whose family had "come over from England", and it is possibly of Scottish origin.

Neither of these two versions have much at all to do with the other versions found in New England and Canada. We can see that clearly when we compare them with the oldest version we have found which is the one from Sarah Willard, of Moriah Center NY from 1869. The Willard version stands squarely in the midst of the rest of those versions normally associated with North America.

When we look at the larger picture of the Northeastern region of America, I think that these two "unique" versions are almost entirely marginalized, and rightfully so. They do not represent early traditional variants of this ballad in this country. I am here suggesting that the Price version did not come "over from England" early on, but much later, and was limited to a single family that "brought it over" and handed it on to Miss Price.

It seems to me that the best way to understand and appreciate the remainder of the American versions found in the Northeast is to place them in the larger context of all other versions found ithroughout the United States, but especially in the Southern Appalachians. As we know, there are many. And I would imagine that the versions found "up North" are probably quite similar to those found "down South" in the Appalachians.

To undertake this kind of study is more than I can do at this point. I am not aware of any detailed analysis of this ballad in America that is very recent. I would appreciate any information that anyone might have on this. I suspect that Gardner-Medwin (1971) may be the most recent work done on the North American versions.

While I think that the versions we have found from New England and Canada definitely help us understand better the spread of this ballad in North America, I don't think that either the Sullivan or the Price versions contribute very much at all to such an understanding. The Sullivan version tells us that the ballad had found its way to Ireland and did come over to New England with a fairly recent Irish immigrant. I'm not at all sure what the Price version tells us and will not venture an opinion on that.

I understand much better now why we did not turn up any versions of this ballad in the Boston area, and especially why there were not any early versions there, due to immigration patterns and religious belief systems. It would seem that the major influence in the Northeast is the same as that down South, in other words the ubiquitous "Scotch-Irish" presence. That this traditional frame of reference undoubtedly had some other "Scottish" influence mixed in with it goes without saying. However, when and where that happened remains to be discovered, although we can assume that it took place prior to the publication of the Andrews/De Marsan broadside in 1858.

I will look forward to additional finds and information, and to discussion of the materials that we have been able to collect here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,pizel
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 10:13 AM

The Scottish version of the ballad removed from the Tobar An Duchlais
site is due to reappear on that site sometime in February.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 09:46 AM

Thanks for that update on the Tobar An Duchlais site.

As I look at this discussion I am struck by how much information we have and by how little we actually know about the history of this ballad in the Northeast. We still are unable to push anything back in time on the American side of the Atlantic prior to the printing of the broadside in 1858, and yet we also know that the broadside was probably "lifted" from one or more strands of oral tradition. It seems much more "Americanized" than British. We also know that "oral traditions" get written down by others besides broadside publishers, because we have that hand-written copy by Sarah Willard from 1869. There were probably hand-written copies prior to the broadside as well. It is all very tantalizing in a somewhat frustrating kind of way!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 09:08 AM

It is interesting to take a look at one of Edith Ballinger Price's novels. Here is THE FORTUNE OF THE INDIES, published in 1922. She seems to know something about the days of sail and being at sea.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-McWAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Edith+Ballinger+Price%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wDUgT9O-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 10:27 AM

I finally made it back to the UVA library yesterday to see if I could find out any more information about Edith Ballinger Price and her mysterious Massachusetts' source. I looked through the other two volumes in Flanders' collection ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND. There were other ballads from Price, collected by M. Olney, with the same kind of cryptic note about "learned in childhood from a friend in Massachusetts" but no new information. One note made reference to 1910 "when she [Flanders] was very young". I also looked at some of Flanders' earlier collections, from Vermont and an earlier collection of New England songs and ballads. There was no additional information in any of these works. In fact, Flanders had incorporated some of the material in these earlier works into ANCIENT BALLADS. So for now, that's all I have been able to find on Edith Price and her source, leaving us no closer to a definitive answer than before.

I would welcome some additional discussion on this subject from New Englanders, and especially from some of the many ballad singers from that region. I think that the questions raised by the study of this one ballad probably apply to the overall status of the old "English & Scottish" ballads in the Northeast.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 12:04 PM

Not directly related to the New England tradition of Child 243, but yesterday I saw for the first time the text noted down by the English poet John Clare from his mother's singing, recorded in his manuscript collection of songs from the 1820s. The bulk of the verses resemble closely (though with differences in detail) the Distressed Ship's Carpenter broadside, but the first three - although a little garbled - are much more like those published by Peter Buchan in Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland (1828). It seems highly unlikely (given the chronology and geography) that Clare's mother could have been influenced by Buchan's text and, since her own background seems to have been solidly English, the suggestion is that the ballad was extant in England around 1800 (which is interesting in itself since we have no other example from this period), and that it existed in a form partly resembling that which we've tended to assume was its 'Scottish' form.

Just for your interest...!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 01:07 PM

George Deacon, in his John Clare and the Folk Tradition, also noted the similarity of the opening to the Buchan text: Despite the resemblance between the first two verses of Clare's version and the opening verses of 'Sweet William's Ghost' (Child, No.77), comparison with the text that Child prints from Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland reveals a remarkably similar opening to the ballad. Apart from providing us with evidence of the ballad's having been sung in Northamptonshire, Clare's version also retains not only the unusual opening but a stronger reminder of the ghostly nature of the returning lover than do most versions (see verse 10 '& cause he was drest like a man').

The first three verses of his (mother's) version are:

  Whos that under my window
  That doth so sigh & moan
  Is it my father dear
  Or is it my brother John
  Or is it my own true love
  That from Scotland has newly come home

  It is not your father dear
  It is not your brother John
  But it is your own true love
  That from Scotland has newly come home
  James Ellice is my name you know
  Altho youve lost the vow

  Im new come home from the salt salt sea
  & its all for the sake of loving thee
  I might have had a kings daughter
  & she would have married me
  & have forgone her golden crown
  & all for the sake of thee



Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 03:15 PM

"I came across this first page of a journal article - I can't access the whole article"
Rest of article plus obituary of the singer
Jim Carroll

'If you do leave your house-carpenter,
And come along with me,
I'll take you to where the grass grows green
On the Banks of the Sweet Viledee, my love,
On the Banks of the Sweet Viledee.'

'If I do leave my house-carpenter,
And go along with thee,
What have you there to support me with
Or to keep me from slavery, my love,
Or to keep me from slavery.'

'I have six ships now sailing out,
And seven more on sea,
Three hundred and ten, all jolly sailsmen,
And they all for to wait on thee, my love,
And they all for to wait on thee.'

She dressed her baby neat and clean,
And she gave him kisses three,
Saying, 'Stay, stay here, my darling baby boy,
And your father is company, my love,
And your father is company'

She dressed herself in a suit of green,
And her maiden's waist was green,
And every town that we passed by,
Sure they took her to be some queen, my love,
Sure they took her to be some queen.

We were but two days out on sea,
And I'm sure we were not three,
When this fair maiden began to weep
And she wept most bitterly, my love,
And she wept most bitterly.

'My curse, my curse upon all seamen,
Who brought me out on sea,
And deprived me of my house-carpenter
On the Banks of the Sweet Viledee, my love,
On the Banks of the Sweet Viledee.'

We were but three days out on sea,
And I'm sure we were not four,
When this fair maiden disappeared from the deck
And she sank to rise no more, my love,
And she sank to rise no more.

IFC BF 82. Recorded from Frank Browne, of Rathnallog, Ballanagare, county Roscommon, on the 25 March 1981, by Bairbre Ni Fhloinn (and also on many subsequent occasions). On the night in question, Frank sang the song for the collector in the front room of the house attached to Bruen's pub, in the village of Ballanagare. Like many other publicans in the area, the Bruens have always been most obliging in facilitating recording sessions on their premises. Frank died in February 1998 (see obituary notice in the present volume).
'The Banks of the Sweet Viledee' is the only recorded version in Irish tradition of Child no. 243, 'James Harris' or 'The Demon Lover' (F. J. Child, The English and Scottish Popular Ballads, Boston 1882-98). In Frank's version of the song, as in many others, the supernatural dimension appears to have been lost. The location of 'The Sweet Viledee' is unknown, and it may well represent a corruption of a placename. Some other versions of the song, from both sides of the Atlantic, contain placenames somewhat similar to 'Viledee'. Frank learned the song, along with many others, from his sisters. It was included on a compilation tape published in 1985 by European Ethnic Oral Traditions, entitled Early Ballads in Ireland 1968-1985, edited by Hugh Shields and Tom Munnelly.
Thanks are due to Debbie Metrustry, of the Top Type Music Bureau, for making the musical transcription.

IN MEMORIAM
FRANK BROWNE
(1909 - 1998)
Frank Browne, traditional singer and storyteller, died on the 21st of February 1998. Frank lived a long life, never moving far from his native Ballanagare, in county Roscommon, where he was born in November 1909. All his life he was a loyal Roscommon man, and he never lost an opportunity to sing his county's praises, in every sense. Until the end of his days, he had an energy and an enthusiasm for life which would put to shame a person half his age.
Music and song played an important part in Frank's life from his young days. He was a noted flute-player, and he used to be much in demand locally to play at house-dances and 'sprees', as they were called. He was a fine singer, with a very rich repertoire of songs, gathered from all kinds of sources. Some of Frank's songs were unique in Irish tradition, and had never before been recorded here (see Mam as Mala na mBailitheoiri — From the Field', in this volume).
In his later years, Frank became well-known in traditional music circles as a singer, performing at festivals and gatherings in several parts of the country. He visited Dublin frequently, where he sang at numerous sessions and conferences, and was a frequent and well-loved visitor at the Goilin Singers' Club, in particular. Only months before he died, he sang to a rapt audience of young people from various parts of the world as part of the programme of the annual International Summer School at University College Dublin.
His songs have been included on a number of commercial compilation recordings, most recently on a compact disc produced by UNESCO, consisting of a representative selection of Irish traditional music and song from the archives of the Department of Irish Folklore. This disc forms part of an international series of ethnic music from around the world.
Frank also had a great deal of traditional material relating
to other areas of life, including stories about \ the fairies and similar supernatural occurrences.
He was, in many ways, a walking archive of information about his own place, and a living link with the past.
First and foremost, Frank was his own person, and he remained indomitably himself on his visits to Dublin and elsewhere.   His   humour and his energy, his love of fun and of singing, were all central to his personality, and affected everyone who met him. It
is a consolation to know that so many of Frank's songs and stories were recorded by the Department of Irish Folklore, with whose staff he was always so generous and patient, and whose students he always welcomed so freely.
Ar dheis De go raibh a anam uasal dilis.
BAIRBRE NI FHLOINN
BEALOIDEAS 66 - 1998

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,gus
Date: 05 May 12 - 07:07 AM

Rae"s Scottish version can, again,be heard on the Tobar An Duchlais site.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:40 PM

Hi John,

I've started putting New England version on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/the-defeated-knight--fish-nh-pre1940-flanders-e.aspx

I have 1941 for the Warner's version not July 1940 wonder where you got that info?

I'm using some of your notes and info on my site,

TY

R-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 07:16 PM

Hi Richie - I think you are right. Flanders recorded Lena Bourne Fish in 1940, but the Warners recorded her in 1941. A misprint/mistake on my part. Here's what I said above:

"This was recorded in 1940, with a "retake" in 1943. The Warner recording of Lena Bourne Fish was made in 1940." And I believe I repeated that mistake somewhere else but I can't spot it right off. Thanks for catching this. And keep up all of your good work!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM

Hi,

Here's some info on the Price version:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/the-daemon-lover--price-ri-ma-1945-flanders-m.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 08:05 AM

I just checked and the Joe Rae version recording (1973) is now back at the Tobar an Dualchais site: The Daemon Lover - Joe Rae. (It went missing earlier!)


Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: leahyj
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:17 PM

I'm more than a little late coming to this thread but in the hope that someone sees it , does anyone have the chords and possibly the sheet music for the Steeleye Span version of Demon Lover . I have searched to no avail .

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 May 18 - 10:44 AM

I'm grateful for this thread being revived, both because I had entirely forgotten reading it a few years ago and putting in my own three hap'orth and for the sake of some of the subsequent posts that I probably didn't see at the time. All the same, given the range of discussion and the number of versions posted, I do wonder why someone should have a desire for details of one particular version from the modern revival.

Subject: Demon Lover
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 10:21 AM

I've heard a few versions of this song and I see there are links on this thread re other versions. But I first heard it from Joan Baez so the version I sing is close to what she recorded. I'd like to know the source of the version Baez recorded (and also background sources for other ballads Baez sang, such as Matty Groves and Geordie, etc)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM

I have tow versions from the Edith Fowke collection if anybody is looking for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Gutcher
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 02:13 PM

Rather a dull {weatherwise} afternoon here after a few weeks of glorious sunshine.
Reading through this thread I came on the post from Brian Peters dated 12.12.2011 @ 12:04. Brian mentions the title of the ballad on Tobar An Duchlais as "Daemon Lover" I, as the singer, certainly did not give it its title, must have been someone at the S.S S in Edinburgh or the recorder of the ballad. The Tobar An Duchlais site came on stream shortly after I had taught myself to use a computer and it came as a surprise to me that I was included in their archives with two recorded items, the first one having missed the opening first verse. Since that time I have recorded a number of sessions for them of ballads, songs and stories.
The father of the Ned Robertson mentioned in the same post spent some time in the East Borders with the Galloway poet Thomas Murray collecting ballads and stories during the mid 19th. C., this period being only one generation removed from the rich harvest gleaned in that airt by Sir W. Scott and others.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 01:48 PM

Hi folkd- maybe I missed t in this verey interesting discussion, but I did not see this version that appears in Barry / Eckstorm / Smyth's Bristish Ballads from Maine volume 1

The House Carpenter
Lyrics-Capt. Lewis F. Gott, Bernard ME, 1926
Eckstorm Collection
Tune-Susie Carr Young, Brewer ME 1928
Barry Collection
Transcription © 2019 Julia Lane

Smyth and Eckstorm received a copy of this song written down in 1926 by Capt. Lewis F. Gott of Bernard, ME "as sung by him for many years." These lyrics appear in "British Ballads from Maine, Volume 1". A tune was later noted by Susie Carr Young of Brewer who says it was "traditional in her family". She also included 4 verses

"I might have married a king's daughter fair,
And she would have married me;
But I've just returned from the salt, salt sea
All for the sake of thee,
All for the sake of thee."

"If you could have married a king's daughter,
I am sure you are much to blame;
For I have wed with a house carpenter,
And Johnnie it is his name,
And Johnnie it is his name."

"If you'll go leave your house carpenter,
And go along with me,
I'll take you where the trees grow tall
On the isle of sweet liberty,
On the isle of sweet liberty"

"If I go and leave my house carpenter,
And go along with thee,
What means have you provided for me '
To keep me from slavery,
To keep me from slavery?"

"Oh, don't you see that good light ship
A-standing in to land,
With a hundred and fifty brave young men
Shall be at your command,
Shall be at your command!"

She took her babe upon her knee,
And she gave him kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home with your father dear,
For to hear him company,
For to hear him company".

They had not sailed more than two weeks,
I am sure it was not three,
When this cruel mother began to weep, _
And to weep most bitterly,
And to weep most bitterly.

"Oh, do you weep for your house carpenter,
Or the dangers of the sea?
Or do you weep for that sweet little babe
That you left when you came with me,
That you left when you came with me."

"I don't weep for my house carpenter,
Nor the dangers of the sea,
But I do weep for the sweet little babe
That I left when I came with thee,
That I left when I came with thee."

They had not sailed more than three weeks,
I am sure it was not four,
When this good ship sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more
And she sank to rise no more

Come all you mothers far and near,
Take warning now by me,
And never sell your babe for gold,
Lest you sink in the salt, salt sea.
Lest you sink in the salt, salt sea.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:20 PM

I think you're right Julia - that version isn't mentioned. Which is curious because the Carr Young 4-verse fragment which follows it is given above!

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:09 PM

It may have been overlooked because it was only printed as lyrics...however, it is variant A (p 304) whereas hers is designated as B (p306)- who knows; anyway, there it is

Just a note that in verse 6 it is meant to be "bear him company", not "hear him company"
best- Julia