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BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto

GUEST,Bluesman 13 Dec 11 - 07:45 AM
MikeL2 13 Dec 11 - 06:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Dec 11 - 07:48 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Dec 11 - 05:14 PM
Arthur_itus 12 Dec 11 - 04:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 12 Dec 11 - 11:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Dec 11 - 10:43 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Dec 11 - 10:35 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Dec 11 - 10:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM
Arnie 12 Dec 11 - 09:27 AM
Arthur_itus 12 Dec 11 - 04:17 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Dec 11 - 03:33 AM
michaelr 11 Dec 11 - 09:00 PM
michaelr 11 Dec 11 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 11 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 11 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 11 Dec 11 - 07:36 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Dec 11 - 07:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 11 - 06:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Dec 11 - 06:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 06:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Dec 11 - 06:14 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 05:53 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Dec 11 - 05:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 11 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM
skarpi 11 Dec 11 - 03:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 11 - 03:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Dec 11 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 11 Dec 11 - 02:00 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Dec 11 - 09:07 AM
John MacKenzie 11 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Shining Wit 11 Dec 11 - 07:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 11 - 07:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 11 Dec 11 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Dec 11 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 11 Dec 11 - 06:03 AM
John MacKenzie 11 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Dec 11 - 04:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Dec 11 - 10:18 PM
michaelr 10 Dec 11 - 09:47 PM
gnu 10 Dec 11 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,Doc John 10 Dec 11 - 06:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Dec 11 - 06:32 PM
The Sandman 10 Dec 11 - 04:36 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:45 AM

If David would have agreed to the terms Europe set out, the usual mob here would have said he lacked backbone and was a poodle to Germany.

What would Labour have done ?

It was a hard call,I feel he made the right one. Now get us to hell out of Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:30 AM

Hi

DC was in a difficult position in between a rock and a hard place.

So it was obvious to most people that some thought and approach was required to negotiate our position.

Cameron and the Public School part of his Government don't do negotiation. They just shout and expect people to jump to their requests tugging forelock as they do so.

fag packets and loud-hailers don't work in the situation we are in.

Cheers

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:48 PM

Just watched Paxman sticking it to Paddy Ashdown. What a diplomat Ashdown is. Paxman was leaning relentlessly on him to call David Cameron a useless c--t. And yet somehow he evaded it.

Rapier wit.

Seems that DC introduced his proposals at 2.30 in the morning when everyone wanted to go home. So they all told him to get stuffed. The Polish guy was saying - why on earth didn't he mention all this at 2.30 in the afternoon.

Oh well! i suppose they'll all have a few more days out on expenses to sort out this misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:14 PM

You, Q, made the point. Up to you to support it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:23 PM

We need to get Manufacturing back as our top priority. Also we need incentives to Export.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM

UK trade figures are widely published and on the net. A quick google turns them up. Why bother to link when it is just as quick to put the question in google?

For a start, see http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/united-kingdom/export-import.html
The export diagram is a little hard to read, but the USA receives 33.5 billion pounds in exports, Germany 24.8 billion, etc.

Interesting is that UK's largest export is medicaments, followed by petrol, and the biggest import category is manufactured goods.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:54 AM

I `ad that Angela Merkl in my cab the other day. She`d been `aving a look for the nastiest Christmas card she could find for Berlusconi after all `is `orrible remarks.
I said, "Morgen Angie. It`s taken 98 years but you finally won. Now that you got most of them voting for you to approve their budgets and deficits do you think they will all cough up for that loan you propose to give to the International Monetary Fund from which you propose to bail them all out? Seems a bit of a round-a-bout to me."
She said, "Mein Gott!! I bloomin` `ope so other wise I`m gesunken with my electorate!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:43 AM

Indeed! My apologies.

When somebody puts a "Q" before the start of a question, I tend to read it as an abbreviation of "Question", as in a "Q & A session".

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:35 AM

You mis-read me Don. My request was to Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:18 AM

""Q - may I remind you of my request for your sources on those trade statistics?""

You may remind me, but I only made one comment on trade, which hardly warrants the description "statistics".

The comment that 40% of our trade was with Europe came from statements on BBC news by spokesmen for the CBI, the Bank of England, and the ONS, all of whom seemed happy with it as a close approximation to the real figure.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM

""I'd be very surprised if this would have been true for countries outside the Eurozone. Could you produce your source for that assertion, Don.""

BBC NEWS! I understood from the analysis of that news by at least three individual financial "experts" that the twenty six had agreed to oversight of there fiscal activities by Brussels, not just the Eurozone seventeen.

If I am wrong, it is because I took three such statements to be likely, on the balance of probabilities, to be correct.

In any case, the suggestion that allowing a foreign power to tax and monitor the City would not trigger a referendum would be very much open to challenge, and a judge might decide that it would indeed trigger the requirements of the new law. The government would then have to obey its own Act of Parliament.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Arnie
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:27 AM

Why all this worry about a possible referendum on the UK leaving the EU? If the electorate vote to leave, then the Gov't, backed by the EU, will interpret this as the wrong decision. We will then have to hold another referendum, and possibly more after that until we get the 'right' decision and vote to stay in. It's known as the Irish method.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:17 AM

Money is the root of all evil and it seems the FSA has firmly come out fighting.
Quote from BBC News today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16135247


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:33 AM

ALL pensions, except the government statutory Old Age Pension, and Civil Service pensions, which are paid out of current tax take. Are invested by the pension funds, in the city. In government bonds, and stocks and shares.
IF the activities of these investors, and bankers is curtailed, and their remuneration limited by statute, they will not have the incentive to try harder. Then the already reduced profits that they produce for private pensions, will fall even further.
Even pensioners pay tax, and help fund the pensions paid from general taxation. So in effect, the more they earn, the more tax is paid, both by the investors, and the pensioners.
In short, they are a necessary evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 09:00 PM

"Britain had shared the outlines of its thinking with some of its partners, officials said, but it hadn't circulated anything approaching a document sufficiently detailed to form the basis of discussion. For that reason, the demands were news to many of the people around the table. But it wasn't just the way Cameron went about it, it was the substance of the demands. He was effectively asking for a softening of regulation on Britain's financial sector at a time when many voters and politicians believe banks are largely to blame for the crisis Europe is suffering and want tighter regulation on the sector.

"Politically speaking, when the banks are considered the enemy and the root of all the problems we have today, Cameron's arguments were the wrong arguments at the wrong time for the wrong people. Politically, he was dead from the start."

From this analysis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 08:50 PM

Do you mind? Get your own thread to talk about male hair.

"Cameron veto" is incorrect, anyway. He had no power to veto the deal, only to keep Britain out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM

Sounds a good idea Alan,you would need to give a lot of thought to your business plan, banks aren't what they used to be. These days they have you by the short and curlys. You wouldn't want it to become a cock up.

There is a lot of scope there, a lot of guys would cum at least twice a week. Have you gave thought to unisex ? It is worth thinking about. I come from a family of pet lovers, being the youngest and the only boy, I always got the job of grooming pussy.

Alan, There are a lot of badgers out there too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:47 PM

yes I get ears and the nostril stuff - orrible!

I had this idea of going onto the dragons den, with radical ideas for grooming mens pubic hair. A chain of salons called Mr Nobby's.

I did this schtick about it at Fylde and everybody thought I was nuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:36 PM

You have done well Alan to keep your own colour, I would be happy to have kept hair ! It is the ears with me, bloody hair plugs grow overnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:04 PM

Surely, Don, the assertion that accepting the Merkel plan would trigger a referendum was denied by the Con-Dems. And why has Ed Milliband's comment "cone awry"?

Q - may I remind you of my request for your sources on those trade statistics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:46 PM

no don't use colour - I've thought about it - I'm a bit grey at the temples, And I hate big white hairs coming out my eyebrows when I spot them - which isn't often enough.

apparently once you start, you've got to keep doing it (applying the colour)sort of quite often.

Perhaps I'll become a goth and go jet black!

grow old ridiculously!

My mother in law had thick brown hair right up until she died at eighty six. Coloured - but I used to think it looked pretty good. She would have looked older with grey hair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:32 PM

"Part of this deal would require that our government submit its budgets, not to the UK Parliament, but to Brussels for approval in the first instance."

I'd be very surprised if this would have been true for countries outside the Eurozone. Could you produce your source for that assertion, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:27 PM

Plus this point Richard, which you may have missed or ignored.

Part of this deal would require that our government submit its budgets, not to the UK Parliament, but to Brussels for approval in the first instance.

You, being a lawyer, should know that this would trigger an immediate automatic requirement for a referendum under the new law.

If you are not a Eurosceptic this should worry you as it worries me.

Not all Tory voters want to get out, and I believe that doing so would wreck our economy, but given all the tabloid furore over the "Brussels Gravy Train", there may well be a sufficient anti feeling for a referendum to produce an "out" vote.

I don't believe we should ever have joined, but I also don't believe we can leave without paying dearly for it.

If only DeGaulle had lived longer!!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:14 PM

UK has not left the EU, only the Eurozone fiscal group, which could have been become very expensive for the well-to-do countries if contributions to cover the indigent countries continued high. The Germans may vote Merkel into a minority position, since many of them object to giving away their tax funds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 05:53 PM

Anyway, it's one in the eye for Ed Millipede (the wrong brother).

His comment on Cameron going from handbagging to handwringing has gone rather awry.

However, I imagine his writers will find a weasel phrase or two to enable him to avoid apologising.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 05:53 PM

Financial services in toto 7.5 percent Don. But the part that Camoron wanted to protect was much much smaller than that. HUtton, writing in the Grauniad says "

There might have been a case for David Cameron to veto the use of the EU treaties for the eurozone bailout if Britain's national interests had really been threatenedk. But they were not. Much of British finance in whose name Cameron exercised his veto – routine banking, insurance and accounting – was wholly unaffected by any treaty change. The financial services industry in Britain constitutes 7.5% of GDP and employs a million people; the City represents perhaps a third of that and, in turn, that part threatened – if it was threatened at all – some fraction of that. This is a tiny economic interest. If the coalition is serious about rebalancing the British economy, it is preposterous to place a fragment of the City at the forefront of our national priorities."





Q - source please. AFAIK the UK's trade deficit with the EU is pro rata smaller than that with other places so a reduction in trade with the EU will have a negative effect. And if the UK leaves the EU (this does look a it of a 1-way street for that) subject to GATT rules the EU will be able to erect tariff barriers and "measures equivalent" against the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM

UK exports, order of importance
USA
Germany
France
Netherlands
Irish Republic

UK imports, order of importance
Germany
USA
China
Netherlands
France

Trade figures in no way will be affected by UK failure to join Eurozone.
British fiscal budgets (as pointed out by Don T) remain UK's own business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM

Not sure about the blue rinses Alan. I think I an right in saying one uses a little colour himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM

Much more difficult to leave than not to go in in the first place Skarpi.

Having thrown away all our former trading partners, we are rather stuck with it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:23 PM

I hope Iceland will never join EU Never .

UK go out of EU you are much better off than in it .

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM

I don't think that Cameron had any choice in his decision to refuse the deal.

There are two major factors here.

1. The city, like it or not (and most of us would say we don't), is responsible for ten percent of our economy.
2. 40% of our trade is with the European Union.

There is a conflict inherent in that, since we cannot afford to lose either.

Ad to that the fact that the Coalition has enacted a law decreeing that any further transfer of sovereignty to Europe will automatically trigger a referendum, and that the deal on offer would give Brussels authority over our fiscal budgets and the taxing of the city.

A "Yes" from Cameron inevitably would have triggered a referendum which might well have the result of our leaving the EU.

The only part of EU operations from which we will be excluded is that business which affects only the Eurozone, of which we are not a member.

We are still a member of the twenty seven and will have a voice in matters affecting them. Europe needs the City almost as much as we do, which means they need us to remain a member.

All in all Cameron, on this occasion, did the best that anyone could have.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:05 PM

We can only guess if he's done the right thing or not. None of us really know.

As you say - apart from the Express and Mail, the chorus of disapproval is deafening. The Times, The FT, The Independant, predictably(as you say the Guardian), The Telegraph......

Perhaps he knows something they don't. Lets hope so and he isn't just currying favour with the right wing euro phobes. It seems that that is the way the French and German politicians and newspapers are seeing it and reporting it.

If they are right, that says something about how threatened he feels within his own party. The tories are bastards to their own leaders -remember what Major said about members of the cabinet pissing out of the tent, rather than into it.

Its always on this same altar of Europe that the tories offer up their leader. You've got to feel that they're as bad at making a united front as the miners were. Will they be as easy to defeat?

Prior to the present international crisis. More people trusted Labour with the economy than the Conservatives. Not surprising after 18 years of high unemployment, economic stagnation, very low wages (supply and demand- people always want to work Bluesman - don't know about you, but most people!) .

So the question is, can Labour win at the next election. The veto is supposed to protect the City, but Cameron doesn't seem to be enjoying a vote of thanks from that quarter.   Just Bluesman, the blue rinses, and the The Mail....


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 02:26 PM

I think that very soon France and Germany will realize that they cannot support the struggling economies of much of Europe. As an economic union, the experiment will ultimately fail.
Great Britain made a mistake in joining in the integration of the European economy, and the Conservatives are beginning to recognize that.
Great Britain will continue to be an important part of NATO. Trade with Europe (and the world) will continue, economic union with Europe not a requirement.
The UK has strong trade ties with the Far East, is union with China, South Korea, Japan necessary? Of course not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 02:00 PM

For those outside of the UK, Conservatives look after the industrious, those who see opportunities and in doing so create employment and make money and in return are justly rewarded. Labour looks after the lazy, the benefit leeches, beer swilling union mouthpieces and corner boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 09:07 AM

I am not at all clear that conservatives rule for the good of the country. Rather I think they rule for the benefit of the monied. This goes pretty much right back to 1910


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

So the choice then would appear to be. either an offshore fish farm for the EU. Or an offshore aircraft carrier for the USA.
If we reduce our military spending any further the US will cut us loose, as we will be of no further use as their European proxy front line,
Without the US, we have no alternative but to stay cosy with the EU.
Don't forget that all those old 'Empire' countries like New Zealand and Australia were forced due to EU regulations against favourable trade tarrifs for their lamb, and butter etc, to find fresh markets. They are now selling elsewhere, and won't want to come back into the fold, just to be kicked in the teeth, the next time we decide to dump our old friends in search of greener pastures.
We have no alternative but to stay in the EU, but the common currency is a mistake, and always has been.
I'd rather we had never signed up to quite so deep a commitment as we have, but having made our bed, we must lie in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:36 AM

As Al says, The Daily Mail cheered the news but ignoring the Grauniad my worry is the FT booed the news.

This is about protecting the City of London although it's arguable that in the long term Cameron's petulance will backfire spectacularly. In fact, none of the noises coming out of the ivory towers of the City are particularly impressed with his somewhat puerile machinations during the negotiations.

There are lessons here, but not ones that Tory empiricists will ever have the wit to see. After the war Germany was essentially demilitarised and it's ability to produce weapons, ships etc was diminished along with it's industrial capacity for supporting those industries . . . until the Allies realised that Germany was needed for Europe to recover from the devastation of WWII, so allowed re-industrialisation. With all that effort plied into creating an economic base (at least in the Allied zone) and no need to support a huge military it was inevitable that in the long run this would work to Germany's advantage.

The fate of Europe has long been tied to the fortunes of Germany, like it or not. Europe is our biggest trading partner, our ties to Europe go deep indeed and not even the sad fools hankering for the days of empire can ever break those ties, and they won't.

Lessons can be learned: Stop spending on military white elephants like Trident and aircraft carries we can apparently live without for a couple of decades and spend the money where it's needed; on the NHS, economic recovery and creating jobs for the million disenfranchised youth.

You have to be in it to win it and whilst this sort of gung-ho isolationism appeals to those dullards and backward-looking boors that make up the core tory vote the real world demands a more pragmatic approach to the problem, and had Cameron not been so cowed by a clique of Monday Club backbench cretins then we might be in a better position.

Cameron is way out of his depth in government and this embarrassment only goes highlight his inadequacies when dealing with the big players (even Sarkozy looks like an intellectual giant next to Cameron). That said, when you're in the company of such total dunderheads like Gideon, Pickles and Gove he must look like a mental giant to those doltish party wonks around him, relatively speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:06 AM

In fact I suspect the tone of your messages is doing your mate 'David' no favours either.

You are making my flesh crawl. Its like Uriah Heep, sort of ingratiating and creepy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM

well if the daily mail says its so, that's probably a good indication that its complete bollocks.

If you only read things that confirm your prejudices Bonzo, you will never learn. The Independent is quite emphatic that Cameron has TOTALLY buggered up what was already a bad situation. The Times is sheepishly admitting the same.

These are no left wing rags.

You have made us understand that you are an enthusiatic Conservative. However it is very irritating to hear you cheerleading away as the effects of deflationary policy bite hard. My nephew and his wife are working fulltime jobs, and doing the post at Christmastime just to keep their heads above water financially. They shouldn't have to be doing that. They're not workshy, or profligate - people having a hard time time don't deserve your abuse.

Just sod off with all this tory boy stuff. If cameron has got it right or wrong, the truth will no doubt emerge before too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:09 AM

Sorry, that link didn't work, here it it.

Published in 2008.

"Britain's taxpayers are forking out more than £21million a year in child benefit for youngsters living in Poland, official figures reveal.

A loophole in EU regulations means migrants from other EU countries who are seeking work in the UK can claim state handouts for children they have left behind in their home countries.

The total benefits bill for the Treasury is likely to be closer to £50million a year when other Eastern European countries are included.

In addition, ministers refuse to reveal how much more is being paid out in tax credits. Last night, the revelations prompted demands for a shake-up of the rules, with critics complaining of a "Government-sanctioned scam" at a time when millions of British children remain in poverty.

Britain's child benefit payments of £941 per year for a first child or £629 per year for younger siblings are far higher than the equivalent paymentsin Eastern European states that are new EU members.

The Polish benefits system, for example, pays a maximum of around £160 per year in child benefit.

Investigations have found that many workers moving to Britain are fraudulently claiming family benefits in both countries, exploiting lax checks and poor information sharing between member states.

Figures released by the Treasury in answer to Parliamentary written questions from the Conservatives show that at the end of September 26,000 Polish children from 16,286 families were being paid child benefits by UK taxpayers.

That means 16,286 first-born children were receiving the full £18.10 per week with the remaining 10,000 getting the lower payment of £12.10 per week.

The figures show that the number of claimants is soaring.

In June last year, the Treasury said 14,000 families from eight Eastern European states were claiming the benefits - around 10,000 were estimated to be Polish.

Open borders: More than 700,000 workers from Eastern Europe have arrived in Britain in the four years since their countries joined the EU

Three months later the figure for Poland alone had risen to 16,286.

At this rate of increase the benefits bill could more than double in a year, with thousands more Eastern European families joining in the benefits bonanza.

Although all the payments are legal under EU law, critics claim they provide an added incentive for immigrants to come to the UK.

Britain was one of the only EU states to give workers from eight Eastern European states full access to its jobs market when they joined the EU in 2004.

They were: the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Hungary and Poland.

Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU a year ago.

Ministers predicted that around 13,000 workers would arrive in Britain each year. In reality more than 700,000 have arrived, more than half from Poland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:03 AM

"The Conservatives govern for the good of the country.
Labour governs for the good of the people."

That may once have been true (although how do you separate "the people" from "the country"?) but the last two Labour governments governed in the interests of the 'free market' and high finance - with a bit of bone-headed, 'box-ticking', doctrinaire social engineering tacked on. The present government governs in the interests of the 'free market' and high finance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:03 AM

I think David is doing a great job. He took on a hell of a mess to start with thanks to years of a Labour government that rewarded the workshy, borrowed money and ignored mounting debt.

"Rising unemployment, wage freezes, decreasing living standards, increasing fuel poverty and child poverty, increasing divide between the rich and poor, big bankers' bonuses."

These are not problems exclusive to the UK. Next you will be saying it's all the Conservatives fault.

Take the example in the link below of what the Labour government saddled the British taxpayer with on their watch regarding Europe.

Germany and France both warned them against a open door policy. They would not listen and refused time and time again to reveal the true cost of it or release figures.

France and Germany will always see us as an island nation no matter what.
   
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510873/Polish-migrants-living-Britain-claiming-21m-child-benefits-children-left-behind.h


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM

The Conservatives govern for the good of the country.
Labour governs for the good of the people.
The real problem, is in those who believe that either way, is mutually exclusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:37 AM

"He says he's protecting Britain's interests. Rising unemployment, wage freezes, decreasing living standards, increasing fuel poverty and child poverty, increasing divide between the rich and poor, big bankers' bonuses."

When a politician like Cameron (or his predecessors) says that he's "protecting Britain's interests" he doesn't mean that he's protecting the interests of ordinary Britons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 10:18 PM

You won't really find the truth of it in any link.

The truth of it is that England has been let down militarily by every country except our old allies of empire days - Australia, India, Canada.

We distrust Europe and they're always passing laws that they don't bother enforcing in their own countries. And like twats we keep buggering up our economy and environment by enforcing European laws.

And yet we do a lot of business with Europe -so the business brains win the debate everytime.

Bonzo will tell you that the Conservative party has all the answers. Dear Richard will tell you that the Conservatives are entirely motivated by greed, and as such they just an additional burden for the English people to bear.

There is no simplistic answer, because it is not a simple problem. That's why politicians are not going to supply the answer. They are wedded to the soundbyte - we know all the answers, and 'the answers are simple' culture.

this is a problem that is not going to get solved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 09:47 PM

The link is in my original post, gnu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe
From: gnu
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 06:59 PM

Could ya link sommat? Or give us a snippet? Not all of us get the UK news daily... ahhh, most of the Catters here, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 06:48 PM

He says he's protecting Britain's interests. Rising unemployment, wage freezes, decreasing living standards, increasing fuel poverty and child poverty, increasing divide between the rich and poor, big bankers' bonuses... Of course he is: that's why we vote coservative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 06:32 PM

The Daily Mail says he's hero. the Guardian says he's an incompetent wanker.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:36 PM

I am living in Ireland, most of the irish people i have spoken to, understand Englands reluctance to abandon sterling.
it simply does not work having 17 countries with the same currency, primarily because a single country cannot devalue to make its exports cheaper.
the Germans are adminstering like puppets what the anglo irish bond holders[goldman sachs, j p morgan etc]tell them has to be done so that those wealthy bond bank holders and bank owners are protected


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