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Folk awards FoI request denied

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Silas 14 Dec 11 - 04:41 AM
Kevin Sheils 14 Dec 11 - 04:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 11 - 05:31 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Dec 11 - 05:42 AM
Vic Smith 14 Dec 11 - 05:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 11 - 06:10 AM
greg stephens 14 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 09:18 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Dec 11 - 09:20 AM
Howard Jones 14 Dec 11 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM
GUEST 14 Dec 11 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Kevin Sheils 14 Dec 11 - 09:57 AM
Dave Hanson 14 Dec 11 - 10:02 AM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM
Kevin Sheils 14 Dec 11 - 10:15 AM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 11:12 AM
greg stephens 14 Dec 11 - 11:17 AM
Kevin Sheils 14 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM
TheSnail 14 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM
Kevin Sheils 14 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM
Bounty Hound 14 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM
Vic Smith 14 Dec 11 - 12:01 PM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Emberto Uco 14 Dec 11 - 12:34 PM
Silas 14 Dec 11 - 12:43 PM
The Sandman 14 Dec 11 - 01:04 PM
Les in Chorlton 14 Dec 11 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 11 - 02:13 PM
Howard Jones 14 Dec 11 - 02:20 PM
The Sandman 14 Dec 11 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Folknacious 14 Dec 11 - 03:18 PM
The Sandman 14 Dec 11 - 03:24 PM
Vic Smith 14 Dec 11 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,Jon 14 Dec 11 - 04:22 PM
The Sandman 14 Dec 11 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,999 14 Dec 11 - 04:22 PM
Spleen Cringe 14 Dec 11 - 06:30 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 11 - 06:26 AM
Vic Smith 15 Dec 11 - 06:48 AM
Howard Jones 15 Dec 11 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Folknacious 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM
The Sandman 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Seedy Guy 15 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM
Vic Smith 15 Dec 11 - 09:16 AM
The Sandman 15 Dec 11 - 10:53 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:41 AM

Sorry Richard, I normally agree with much of what you say, but I don't on this occcasion. It is far too easy to see these conspiracy theories everyware you look.

Its true that some awards have been a bit odd, best duo award to a trio and as you say, best new song wasn't. Donovan???????????????

However, I am happy to trust the integrity of the BBC and smooth ops.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:48 AM

Has anyone read Mike Hardings blog dated 24th November at http://mikeharding.blogspot.com/

Worth reading all the way through and a reasoned thought with some good points.

Of course the usual suspects will just claim he's a tool of the system and probably not read it in full anyway.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM

Something sinister afoot!

Never fear! Hercule Breedge and I with our leetle grey cells will figure this out.

Personally I go for the sinster Reverend Martin Carthy in the library with the lead pipe. But has the sinister Professeur Ralph Mactell got a motive for being een the seeneester west wing with a rope and gun...?

Ma Foi! 'Astings! i have eet.....!

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:31 AM

By the way, have any of you buggers voted for me?

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:42 AM

"best duo award to a trio and as you say, best new song wasn't. Donovan???????????????
However, I am happy to trust the integrity of the BBC and smooth ops."
.,,.,.

Anyone spot a maybe bit of inconsistency here?

♔♛♚M·Rex♚♛♔

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:56 AM

Page 3 of this thread

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:10 AM

A-ah! M'sieur VeeK, you 'ave zee answer, I think!

(Gallic shrug!)

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM

Smooth Ops and the BBC have claimed repeatedly said that there are no performers on the panel. This is completely untrue. So naturally they don't wabnt to publish the list, as everybody could see the dishonesty for themsaelves. Why they are being so dishonest is the question that intrigues me. They are bound to be found out. Certainly they will say "oh we didnt actually mean to say there aren't any performers, we meant to say something a bit different", and their supporters will accept that. Others won't.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:18 AM

OK Greg. Would you rather there be no Folk Award programme on national BBC? No one is saying it is perfect, what is for heavens sake? But it is a great showcase for the genre and should be supported by us instead of griping and whinging about it.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:20 AM

From what I remember of previous awards the suggestion over there on the Froots board that the 150 are "folk central" seems unlikely. If that were so I'd have expected a less middle-of-the-road-to-modern-music tendency (as I remember it) in the awards.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:42 AM

Why should it matter if there are performers on the panel? Presumably they would not be allowed to vote for themselves. I am baffled why they thought it necessary to make such a statement, since it appears to be misleading. However I suspect that the BBC finds the folk world's blurred distinction between musicians and civilians hard to understand.

It's unlikely that out of 150 judges a significant majority could be "cronies". However with this number the laws of probability favour the well-known, high-profile performers - who are the ones you'd expect to get nominated.

The Folk Awards aren't really aimed at us. Where they have an impact is with the non-folk media and general audience. Once a year, folk music gets a bit of attention. That should be a good thing. Instead we complain about details, and then spend the rest of the year bemoaning the fact that our music is ignored. Why should we expect the BBC to continue to broadcast folk music when the response is this?

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM

A few years ago when an original song made the finals in a traditional category one of the questions asked was how can (say) 150 "experts" manage to make this mistake.

The answer that came back was something like categories typically get dozens of different nominations at the initial stage and that it may only take (say - my figures here) 10 or so nominations at this stage for an "entry" to make it to the finals.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:56 AM

You're talking sense Howard. And your last sentence is in much the same vein as Mike Hardings in the blog I linked to.

Yes with some 150 or so experts I'd be surprised if there were no performers, but where is the evidence that the BBC or Smooth OPs actually made that statement. I'm not claiming they didn't but this is the internet and just because someone states something was said soesn't make it so. I'd like to see the actual statement rather than someone's suggestion of what was said.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:57 AM

Sorry that above was a cookieless Kevin Sheils forgetting he's on a different computer

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:02 AM

The reason for the secrecy about the judges has been given as ' so they can't be influenced by record companies ' this must indicate that they can't be trusted to use their integrity, in whom they vote for.

This argument will go on as long as everything is not open to public scrutiny.

Dave H

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

OK Dave - if you were a judge would you want it to be known? I certainly wouldn't. I can imagine the pestering from 'folkies' wanting to know all the processes, who I am voting for, being swamped with demo CDs, facing critisism from people who have a different opinion on who should have won. No, leave it as it is.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:15 AM

To quote part of Mike Hardings blog

I don't particularly care whether the names of the judges become public knowledge or not – they weren't kept secret they just weren't published.I suspect that both Smooth Operations and the BBC thought nobody would be much interested in knowing who they were – I would however point out that…

1 - Judges might not want their names known because they could possibly become the subjects of either lobbying or abuse.
The lobbying I doubt simply because there ain't that much money in folk that a big record company are going to start flying Fred Bloggs the organiser of WIlberswick Folk Festival to Cannes. Also I suspect that the folk world – because of its very roots – is fundamentally anti big business and is still at base a world in which honesty and being rooted is very important– you couldn't find more rooted and honest people for example than Chris Wood and Martin Simpson two of this years nominees.
Abuse (as from the evidence of this "transparency" campaign) is much more likely.

You can follow the link to read the rest if you wish. Once again the mudcat knee-jerk reactions set in. Even if you read Emma's blog there is a statement from Kellie While that they have no objection to judges saying who they are but it's their choice not someone else's.

As Silas states above would you put up with the pestering. Fotunately most people realise that mudcat is, despite many of it's own contributors views of it's own importance, pretty irrelevant to most people who just get on with playing, singing, organising, listening and enjoying this great music.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:12 AM

"And why shouldn't someone, anyone, post a link to well-written and thoughtful folk blog?"

Just seen this, it made me spurtle coffee all over my keyboard! Haa Haaaaaaaaaa! Well written - thoughtful? Yea - right!

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:17 AM

Silas: I have noobjection to the BBC running Folk Awards. I do have an objection to their issuing statements that are not true. That is plain daft.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM

Again a pointer to the actual statement would be useful statement rather than a allusion to it

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM

Well Greg, it depends on wether there was a deliberate intention to mislead or not, I am not certain that they actually made that statement as I have seen nothing to confirm it, but even if they did I think it was probably an honest mistake.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

Emma Hartley's blog, 3rd page of attachment to email from Rachel Hallett, just over half way down.

Signed
Chris Burns
Group Manager Audio & Music

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM

Thanks Mr Snail - trouble is it means going on the poisonus blog again - ah well.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

OK that's all we asked for a pointer to the statement.

I would guess that the particular BBC person may not be aware that there is a very blurred distinction in Folk music between performers and those who fill other roles, probably more so than in mainstream music.

I would guess, to give an example, the BBC would consider Kellie While to be acting in her role as senior producer for smooth ops and not even be aware of her as a performer. There may well be other similar scenarios where the judge is chosen for their non performing roles.

Of course all these statements that the BBC are misleading us only hold water if we know who the judges are. Bit of a chicken and egg here. People complain about the lack of a list of judges and then claim that the BBC are lying because we know who the list contains.

Maybe people should try to get their objections straight.

Anyway it's all an irrelevence really, except of course to the small few who may feel really left out by not being recognised, either as winners or judges. Which I think is far more the underlying reason for the complaints than transparency.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

Silas, the statement was made by the BBC in their response to Emma Hartley, and she has published that reply on her blog, and reads:

'The 'Voting panel' for the Folk Awards is made up of people who are making judgments and decisions about folk music as part of their job, but are not performers themselves'

I would imagine the reality is that as Howard has already rightly pointed out, that many of the judges are probably performers to some degree, and like Howard, I personally don't have a problem with that, but if you read the earlier post from banjiman, you will see that at least one of the judges is a well established and respected top flight performer, and also manages one of the nominees. the inference of the BBC statement is that the judges are likely to be agents, promoters, managers etc, which does of course beg the question of a vested interest in the nominees.

'honest mistake'? I don't know, but would have my doubts. It is precisely because there are only snippets of unclear information that we get the conspiracy theories you refer to in your earlier post and I would echo the earlier call that transparency is what's needed.

John

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:01 PM

Silas asked:-
"Would you rather there be no Folk Award programme on national BBC?"

No Folk Award programme? Hmmm - there's an interesting idea!

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:05 PM

Hi John.
I would imagine that some of the judges MUST be performers, either ones who take no part inthe actual awards or performers who no loner perform all that much. I would imagine that MH is one of the judges for instance, and I am sure Genevive Tudor is, and she does occasionally perform. I think he is referring to mainstream performers like well, Bob Fox, Steve Knightly, Jon Boden etc.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Emberto Uco
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:34 PM

Of course every aspect of the Music Industry is corrupt to some extent.

What's the point of being an awards judge

if you can't at least get a few bottles of rare old Malt Whisky or an occasional blowjob out of it ????

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Silas
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:43 PM

Get yer coat!

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 01:04 PM

Yes, Folk awards have become meaningless, and particularly these ones, it smacks of the pop world and tin pan alley, in my opinion what is needed is a revival of the home made music phenomenon
The BBC did better when they had programmes like hold down a chord, might I suggest they do a programme on open tuning on guitar and or banjo, or even styles of unaccompanied singing, using traditional singers to illustrate different styles and ornamentation. or even songwriting
the BBC AWARDS are a bad joke, yours disgusted a long way from tipperary

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 01:37 PM

If I didn't know any better I would suspect that "Good Soldier Schweik " was in fact "the home made music phenomenon" who is publically involved in "styles of unaccompanied singing" and probably that modern opportunistic development "accomanied singing" also.

And to enter this discussion without being totally, utterly and completely honest about his/her relationship to the BBC, Smooth Opps, Mike Harding and pints of free mild beer sums up what is bringing our beloved tradition to its erm ......, why Oh why, and am I the only one .............. and stuff like that.

Yours outraged of Chorlton cum Hardy

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:13 PM

"What's the point of being an awards judge
if you can't at least get a few bottles of rare old Malt Whisky or an occasional blowjob out of it ????"

I think Bill Clinton would best be able to answer that.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:20 PM

I'm trying to think how anyone sufficiently involved with the folk world on a professional basis to be asked to be a judge might not, one way or another, have a vested interest in some of the nominees. If you have the qualifications to be a judge, you can't be entirely disinterested.

However I take comfort from knowing that, in my experience, people in the folk world are almost invariably open, honest and trustworthy. I also know that most people feel passionately about the music, and I'm quite sure the majority of judges do their best to perform their duties conscientiously.

I also take comfort from the fact that with a pool of 150 judges any cronyism, favouritism, bias or outright corruption by a few of them is likely to be cancelled out by the majority. Of course, if you believe in conspiracy theories you'll believe they're all involved...

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:55 PM

Jim Carroll would make an excellent judge

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:18 PM

However I take comfort from knowing that, in my experience, people in the folk world are almost invariably open, honest and trustworthy. I also know that most people feel passionately about the music, and I'm quite sure the majority of judges do their best to perform their duties conscientiously.

Exactly. So I think that people shouting about conspiracies and cheating and bias and cronyism say a lot more about their own likely tendencies were they in the position of being a judge than anything else: takes one to know one and so forth. Furthermore, any argument based on variations on "the people I like never get nominated" is completely spurious, like complaining about a record getting a review saying something other than your opinion. Because that's all it is: opinion based on people's tastes. Many people have been nominated and won over the years who aren't to my taste, and many people I admire have never been nominated, but that's how democracy goes folks, when it's your taste versus 150 others.

For all that, I certainly don't want to play dog in the manger and tear it down because I can see the viewpoints of those who say that it generates publicity for folk music and any publicity is good publicity. Certainly better than hiding it away in the back room of a seedy pub and charging 1970s prices to restrict it to 1970s people.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:24 PM

From: GUEST,Folknacious - PM
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:18 PM

However I take comfort from knowing that, in my experience, people in the folk world are almost invariably open, honest and trustworthy. I also know that most people feel passionately about the music, and I'm quite sure the majority of judges do their best to perform their duties conscientiously.

Exactly. So I think that people shouting about conspiracies and cheating and bias and cronyism say a lot more about their own likely tendencies were they in the position of being a judge than anything else: takes one to know one and so forth. Furthermore, any argument based on variations on "the people I like never get nominated" is completely spurious, like complaining about a record getting a review saying something other than your opinion. Because that's all it is: opinion based on people's tastes. Many people have been nominated and won over the years who aren't to my taste, and many people I admire have never been nominated, but that's how democracy goes folks, when it's your taste versus 150 others.

For all that, I certainly don't want to play dog in the manger and tear it down because I can see the viewpoints of those who say that it generates publicity for folk music and any publicity is good publicity. Certainly better than hiding it away in the back room of a seedy pub and charging 1970s prices to restrict it to 1970s people
   who is this idiot? .this is an insult to folk clubs and folk club organisers.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:36 PM

Why is Folknacious an idiot? Why be rude?

Like you, I don't think that the Folk Awards show the folk scene at its best.

Folknacious argues - perfectly validly - that they "generate publicity for folk music and any publicity is good publicity." This is a perfectly valid point and one that I would find undeniable.

It is called a debate. Because people have different opinions from us, we don't have to be rude to them.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:22 PM

I also take comfort from the fact that with a pool of 150 judges any cronyism, favouritism, bias or outright corruption by a few of them is likely to be cancelled out by the majority. Of course, if you believe in conspiracy theories you'll believe they're all involved...

Hmm, I would have thought that if the reply as I remember it concerning an original song getting to the finals in a traditional category is correct and the nominations are commonly that scattered, it would follow that only a small number would need to be in collusion to give an "entry" a very good chance of making the finals. Winning the final would be a different matter though.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:22 PM

well he has described all folk clubs in a rude way:
Certainly better than hiding it away in the back room of a seedy pub and charging 1970s prices to restrict it to 1970s people."
Vic, it is idotic to describe people like you as seventies peple who hide away in seedy back rooms, if people like folknacious make idiotic statements they deserve to be called idiots

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:22 PM

You folks take yourselves much too seriously.

I don't think I'm related to the old lady who wrote the letter, but I could be.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:30 PM

That link is brilliant. Thanks, 999!

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:26 AM

Icannot stand people who make sweeping generalisations[particularly about folk clubs and folk music].
the seventies was a time when many folk clubs were heaving with young people
in 1974 I saw Alex Campbell, play to a full house at dartford folk club, whose room was not a seedy back room.in the seventies i remember doing a floor spot at vic smiths[upstairs and not seedy] club the guest were strawhead, the club was well attended.
i was involved as a resident at a folk club called the three blackbirds, the guest was derek brimstone ,packed house, he got 3 encores, dereks words were this is a great club, circa 1977.
just 3 examples of many i could mention, what is this crap about seventies people, what is this crap about seventies prices, whatis this myth that all folk clubs are in seedy back rooms. this kind of genarilising rubbish only harms folk clubs and folk music
either folknacious is a fantasist or he has some other problem

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:48 AM

... what is this crap....he has some other problem

... and so those - including myself - who just want an insult-free discussion are driven away...

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:05 AM

GSS, the remark you're complaining about was a throw-away comment as part of a discussion on an entirely different topic. It is clearly not meant as a generalisation about all folk clubs but even you must recognise that it applies to some. It is clearly intended as the opposite end of a spectrum to the Folk Awards.

Even if you disagree with the comment, please drop it. It is not relevant to the topic under discussion, and personal abuse is inimical to rational debate.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

Howard Jones said: rational debate.

On Mudcat? With bewildered of Ballydehob? Yes it was, as you say, a throwaway remark, but unexpectedly too close to the bone for those who may have fitting caps. Always consult mirror before reacting.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

no,I will not drop it .
it was yet another attempt to damage the reputation of folk clubs and folk music, a   remark that is not close to reality, it read like a remark about all folk clubs, therfefore it needs to be corrected
it is a tiny minority of folk clubs that are held in seedy back rooms, and those that are held there, are held there, because there is nowhere else available, finding rooms for folk clubs is not easy.
rational debate cannot be achieved if people such as Folknacious make irrational comments.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: GUEST,Seedy Guy
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM

It is the reference to "seediness" or the "backness" of the room that so offends?

"Seventies prices for seventies people". I'd wear that on a t-shirt.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:16 AM

bewildered of Ballydehob

It is a great temptation to descend to his level - but surely it is a sign of strength not to?

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 10:53 AM

no Vic,
I have a right to refute idiotic statements, that insult the hard work many organisers do.
Folknacious has not backed up his silly comment with any kind of rational comment.
what the f### are seventies people, and which clubs are charging seventies prices, he is just talking nonsense, and which clubs are in seedy back rooms, it is just another attempt by someone to make ill informed negative comments about folk clubs.

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Subject: RE: Folk awards FoI request denied
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

EmmaHartley has now provided just 1% (and only 2 lines) of the postings on this subject.
Maybe we should just let the thread die, as she seems uninterested!

100

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Mudcat time: 28 November 3:08 PM EST

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