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Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave

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FATTY GROVES
LORD BANNER
MATTIE GROVES


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GUEST,Pat 'de Verse' 14 Dec 11 - 05:11 PM
MartinRyan 14 Dec 11 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,Pat 'de Verse' 14 Dec 11 - 06:28 PM
Les from Hull 15 Dec 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,SteveG 15 Dec 11 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 15 Dec 11 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 15 Dec 11 - 12:52 PM
Matthew Edwards 15 Dec 11 - 06:53 PM
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Subject: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Pat 'de Verse'
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:11 PM

I am curious to find the origins of 'Bucklesfordbery', or 'Bucklesfieldbery'as sung in the 'Ballad of Little Musgrave'. I know of the origin & connection to 'Matty Groves' and several other versions. But was just curious as to whether or not the place mentioned in the song actually existed or might still exist?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:16 PM

Hi Pat

There's some discussion of the placename in an earlier thread:

Click here

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Pat 'de Verse'
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:28 PM

Thanks, Martin, I was just curious & doing my Sherlock Holmes/Ellery Queen on this particular Child ballad....thread appears toindicate somewhere in Cumbria, Bernard Casle and a village 'Little Musgrave'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 12:08 PM

The title Lord Barnard dates from after the earliest versions of this ballad, so don't go blaming him!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 12:48 PM

The Barnards/Barnets and the Musgraves held lands all over the north in the 16th and 17th centuries. I seem to remember in another thread someone suggesting there were lots of places in the north of england called Musgrave. There's certainly one in North Yorkshire. Barnard Castle is also in North Yorkshire but it's much more likely the ballad was written by one of the usual suspects and he used a few well-known names of the period. The earliest versions are the early 17thc broadsides.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 12:48 PM

Great & Little Musgrave are near Kirkby Stephen off the B6529. Lord Barnard is still resident in nearby Raby Castle (great Xmas shop & dear park just off the A688 north of Staindrop) but a search for Bucklesfordberry on Google maps draws a blank... Seeking locations for ballads is always fun. I was brought up with the notion that Binnorie is a contraction of By Norham, which fits the geography quite nicely actually.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 12:52 PM

Barnard Castle is also in North Yorkshire

Country Durham actually.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ballad of Little Musgrave
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:53 PM

There was a thread some time ago asking about the origins of the name Buckelsfordbery, but I can't reopen the thread to check it. However I think Greg Stephens made the wise comment that Bucklesfordbury probably is on the road to Scarlet Town (ie its existence is purely imaginary).

Having said that there actually was a place in Westmorland now in the modern county of Cumbria called Buckles Bridge about 4 miles west of the village of Little Musgrave. The bridge crosses the River Belah on the road from Kaber to Barras in Stainmore, and lies just below the farmstead of Buckles itself. The bridge is now known as Oxenthwaite Bridge (Grid ref NY 824 120). The earlier bridge and the road were built with money left in the will of Sir Cuthbert Buckle, a local lad made good, who became Lord Mayor of London but died of the plague in 1594 during his term of office. Whether there was a ford over the Belah before the bridge was built, and what the name of any such ford might have been, are both unknown.

Matthew


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