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BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Musket Date: 15 Mar 12 - 06:20 AM Iona is about to give her views on why stoning is a good thing. I'm all for free speech, but in this temporal world, where superstition is tolerated rather than believed, isn't advancing the cause for stoning conspiracy to murder? I've a track record in my past, having girlfriends before my divorce came through and if Iona wants me stoned, she can either buy me some dope or keep her silly thoughts out of my reality. If the bible is the word of god, it is because god is a word to describe the net output of the humans who wrote it. I don't have a hang up with that. I have a hang up with how it is used as a powerful mind altering tool to brain wash the weak, promise jam tomorrow and justify extreme bigotry. Oh and my dismissing of it is not because I fear it, although I fear the consequences of those influenced by it sometimes. And reading Iona's diatribe, I don't think I'm far wrong, which is a shame for those who are capable of using it as a metaphor, as it sounds as if I am dismissing some good people. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 15 Mar 12 - 06:04 AM Doesn't that put Mary and her extra-marital dalliance in a difficult position? Splendid! As for stoning, Iona, I think Jesus had it covered in John 8:7 and Luke 6:31. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:51 AM Oh right, Bill, so that's how it works! So you mean I don't have to think for myself any more - if I have a problem I just open the Bible at random, pick out a passage which seems to fit my particular problem, and, hey presto, there's the answer ... once it's been 'adjusted' with a bit of praying etc. Thanks, Bill! That's great! I was never fond of that troublesome old thinking for myself anyway! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:42 PM Naaawww, Shimrod... in the Bible, if you seem to get a contradictory notion, you have simply mis-interpreted it! Nothing in the Bible is wrong or contradictory... you just need to pray to God for clarification...or visit various churches until someone gives you an answer that fits! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: TheSnail Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM Interesting that all talk of science seems to have disappeared from this discussion to be replaced by the pros and cons of adultery. I really wanted to stay clear of the religious arguments but this one intrigues me - If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. Doesn't that put Mary and her extra-marital dalliance in a difficult position? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Iona Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:21 PM Sure, Paul, The Bible says it, I believe it to be right and good. I think my next post will be on stoning, because you all seem to want an explanation on why I think it's righteous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 14 Mar 12 - 11:29 AM and how easy it is to get # 1100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 14 Mar 12 - 11:28 AM No...wait... this just in! You see how clearly the 2nd example |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 14 Mar 12 - 11:23 AM Let's solve this right now... It says clearly- right here- that ummmm...hold on a minute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:38 AM Oh, come now, Bruce. Everybody knows that, to the likes of Iona, the Bible was, as my first mo-in-law used always to say, "Bound in black and written in English". 〠☺〠~M~〠☺〠 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: beardedbruce Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:48 AM Iona, I have stated several times, ( and you have not acknowledged,nor provided any statement to the contrary) that the KJV has several KNOW AND ACKNOWLEDGED errors in translation. YOU are basing life and death determinations on an inaccurate source. IF you were to kill a witch based on the incorrect translation, you would be guilty of MURDER, since the original DOES NOT STATE that God wants you to kill witches. UNLESS you have read the SOURCE documents IN THE ORIGINAL, and completely understand what that meant AT THE TIME IT WAS WRITTEN, you had best not allow the actions that you have expressed approval for to occur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:32 AM So let's repeat the question I asked before and was one of those you ignored: if your government gave you the choice to vote for the reintroduction of stoning, would you vote in favour or against? From what you have said before, I assumed you would, but pete thought I was misjudging you. So now's a good chance to make your stance clear. And please don't try to avoid answering just because it's hypothetical - Pete was brave enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:47 AM "You all accuse me of being a monster, but I didn't come up with those doctrines myself. God instigated them, and I have said again and again, ..." No, Iona, God didn't "instigate" those doctrines, human beings did. "If a man kills another man, it proves that the killer was the fittest, because he survived and the victim didn't. That ought to be viewed as progress for the evolutionist's worldview," If a man kills another man the vast majority of us agree that the killer has committed an act of murder and should be tried and punished accordingly. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory and is morally neutral. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Iona Date: 14 Mar 12 - 03:15 AM As I understand it, it was normally adultRESSES who were stoned to death (and are, I believe, still stoned to death in some parts of the world today). That was because their societies were based on patrilineal descent. Men passed their 'property' on to their sons (i.e. male, genetic offspring) after death so they needed to ensure that any male heirs were descended from themselves and they didn't leave all of their worldly goods to some ' @#!*% ' resulting from the wife's indiscretion. So adultery was not originally a crime 'against God' but an economic one based on male dominance. You haven't read the Bible then, because it is very clear on who is to be stoned, and it is certainly not just women. See Deuteronomy 22:22-24, which says: "If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." Seems like God wasn't too worried about gender when he gave the death penalty for sins. And the fact that adultery is deserving of death shows that God thinks very highly of the marriage covenant. Marriage is the second most holy covenant ever, after God's covenant with a Christian. It's not broken lightly, and God will hold adulterers accountable for their actions (Matthew 5:28). Iona "Let God be true, and every man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 14 Mar 12 - 03:06 AM As well as stoning for adultery, these idiots MUST support: Mutilation of criminals. Not working for one year in seven. Eating old food for the year after the year of not working. Banning sales of land for periods greater than 7 years. Allowing Cohens to claim back houses they have sold you after at most 7 years. Not charge interest to Israelis. Slavery (but only of Canadians and Mexicans if you live in the USA). That's just one chapetr of their book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 14 Mar 12 - 02:38 AM Even the Devil quotes Scripture. I think I know who you really are, Iona! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Mar 12 - 02:28 AM "Righteousness is defined by God, because God is the definition of goodness and righteousness." Iona ~~~ .,,. If ever I wanted an example to offer of what is (in its true meaning, rather than the debased and misused popular one) of the concept of "begging the question" ['Ignoratio elenchi'], ie including what is supposed to be the topic of argument as purportedly part of the proof, I don't think I could ever find a better one than this. I honestly think we should all leave the poor woman alone to go on chasing her own tail! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST Date: 14 Mar 12 - 01:30 AM You all accuse me of being a monster, but I didn't come up with those doctrines myself. God instigated them, and I have said again and again, Righteousness is defined by God, because God is the definition of goodness and righteousness. Therefore, stoning adulterers, homosexuals, et cetera, is not unrighteous because the righteous God has commanded it. Athiests have decided that general consesnsus makes morality. They use their own feelings and fallen judgement to try and judge the Biblical God (who they claim doesn't exist. Yet they are frantic to suppress what they know in their inner soul, that He does exist, and that's why they hate Him so) by their own thoughts and judgements. They can't account for morality, they can't account for laws of logic, they just give a vague argument that such things must be so or else there would be discomfort in the world. But isn't that survival of the fittest? If a man kills another man, it proves that the killer was the fittest, because he survived and the victim didn't. That ought to be viewed as progress for the evolutionist's worldview, but instead they (some of them) hypocritically say that it's WRONG (though they don't say why), and that we ought to help the weak instead of exterminate them. Just goes to show that there aren't any real atheists.... Iona "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 13 Mar 12 - 03:41 PM As far as Old Testament law is concerned, Rabbi Hillel, born in Babylon around 110 Before Christ was one of the most important figures in Jewish history and scholarship, and is associated with the development of the Talmud. Renowned as a sage and a scholar, he is popularly known for two very wise sayings. The first is a statement of the Golden Rule, put slightly differently, but the same thing nevertheless: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary. Go and learn." Jesus said basically the same thing, phrasing it slightly differently. A friend of mine, who is Jewish, has a small plaque on his wall written in Hebrew script. I asked him once what it meant. He said, "It's a quote of Rabbi Hillel. It says, 'If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?'" There is a bundle of wisdom there. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 13 Mar 12 - 05:04 AM Sorry, Joe! But you're not a fundamentalist - and, if your adjudications on here are anything to go by, a person with a strong moral code and a highly developed sense of right and wrong. If you say that your religious beliefs have informed that code and that sense, then that's fine by me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:22 AM Hey, Shim, thou shalt not take the name of Joe in vain.... ;-) Iona, I'm frightened about your approval of stoning. You don't really see justification in stoning, do you? Where does the Golden Rule fit in there? What do you have to say about what Jesus did to the woman accused of adultery? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 12 Mar 12 - 07:37 AM Adultery - a little word, loaded with judgement and bigotry, which must have condemned many people - mainly women - to a life of misery in the past. Here are a few (fictional) scenarios: 1. My neighbours are a couple in their early 30s. He's a bit of a letch, and is having it off with his secretary; she is a bit of a flirt and is receiving a regular 'seeing to' from her 'fitness instructor'. Anyway, those are the rumours which are circulating in the local area. What should I do in these circumstances? Nothing, except keep my mouth shut and don't circulate rumours - it's none of my damn business! 2. My neighbour is trapped in a loveless marriage to an uptight, 'Holy Joe' religious fundamentalist. She meets a nice, normal bloke in a local cafe and she leaves her husband to go and live with him. What should I do about it? Nothing, it's none of my damn business! 3. 'Holy Joe's' fundamentalist mates decide to seize the woman in 2. above and stone her for adultery. I find out about this vile plan. What should I do about it? Arm myself with a pickaxe handle and do whatever's necessary to defend this lady from these despicable, self-righteous nutters! That's what I should do! Are you listening, Iona? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Musket Date: 12 Mar 12 - 05:54 AM I assume that now we have unearthed this Iona person as being a danger to herself or others, we can stop humouring her by trying to reason with her? A psychopath, homeopath, personality disorder whatever, you ain't going to reason with someone who reads a book of tales and substitutes that for voices in her head. Paul Burke's recent offering has me thinking, and I reckon his short comment is very deep. He said that hers is not a morality because she takes no responsibility for it. Putting aside the population control benefits of having the masses believing in a religion, and just keeping it to the personal bits, you are left with assigning a third party, (a bible, Q'ran, voices in your head..) as an excuse for your own deep personality disorder. There's a hell of a lot of it about. ps. For those who have repeatedly dismissed me as someone with a hatred of religion, (not the case, but bear with me,) look at it this way. It will soon be Easter and time for those who see me in folk clubs to perform my impersonation of Jesus on a rubber cross. (Far more flexible and funny since my operation last year.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 12 - 02:04 PM Iona, Jesus preached forgiveness for sins. From what you say you believe, I can only conclude that you are no Christian. Look at this: Stoning. You think THIS is God's Justice? If you are trying to evangelize, you are not doing a very good job of it. You'd better learn more about your own religion before you try to sell it to anyone else. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 11 Mar 12 - 01:06 PM Iona, NONE of those here who believe in God think he is evil. Nor do those who don't believe in God, since a non-existant God can't be good or evil. No, the evil is not in God but in those who abuse and distort holy texts to advance their own petty interests. For example when you claim some authority is given to the state you have literally no idea how that fits with states outside westernised countries, and probably not outside the US for that matter. But you don't think about it because its outside your limited personal interests. Nor are we fooled by your attempts to ignore the outstanding questions dumping a whole new set of assertions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST Date: 11 Mar 12 - 12:28 PM Iona, This is the only possible position a follower of Jesus can have on stoning people for adultery. It is in his own (translated) words and could not be more clear. If you believe something else, you are following a belief system other than that of the Jesus of the New Testament. John 8:1-11 (New International Version) John 8:1-11 New International Version (NIV) John 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?â€쳌 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."쳌 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"쳌 11 "No one, sir,"쳌 she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"쳌 Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,999 Date: 11 Mar 12 - 12:21 PM I think people who adulterate vodka or whiskey should be stoned. In fact, they likely are! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: frogprince Date: 11 Mar 12 - 12:09 PM A yes or no question for Iona: If you were living under civil law which allowed the stoning of adulterers or homosexuals, would you personally participate in stoning a person to death for committing adultery or for being homosexual? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Jon Corelis Date: 11 Mar 12 - 11:45 AM An Ipsos poll in 2010 surveyed levels of belief in creationism among the general public in various countries (pdf on line here.) Selected results (% of people who are creationists): Belgium 8 France 9 Japan 10 China 11 Spain 11 Australia 15 Italy 21 Argentina 26 Mexico 32 India 33 United States 40 Sigh ... Jon Corelis Songs by William Blake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 11 Mar 12 - 10:10 AM I have seen something like this somewhere else, and a very surprising somewhere else as well. While looking up something about Norse mythology, which I hold to be such, I fell into a website written by someone who adheres to the belief that it is not, and that peculiar pantheon are still in business. Now Odin, the chief of that lot, describes himself in literature by a number of names, such as Stirrer of Strife, and Deceitful. He is not notable in the original texts as being a very nice guy, even to his favourite followers. But this website tied itself into knots explaining that since he was a good god aiming for good ends, he was justified in his behaviour. I was somewhat surprised, and went on my way. To see the same arguments about the Father of Jesus is mind blowing. Iona, you have a lovely name with a wonderful heritage. It was Christians taught on Iona who spread the Word across Britain to the pagan English, and then, via their pupils, on to the Continent, when the faith had all but died out. From what I have read of them, and the changes in life of the men who had grown up with a life not far removed from that of the men of the Old Testament, they did not teach a faith like yours. (I did try to find something of what they did teach, but found this enlightening piece about the origins of the inerrant KJV instead. Wot, No Hell? . Somewhere I have some Anglo-Saxon texts with OT stories translated into Old English and then into modern, so I know they did know some of the content. I will check it out to see if it is useful.) I don't believe that those missionaries would have converted the people they did if they had heard a gospel like yours. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Stu Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:43 AM Type 'stoning' into Google, click images and see what Iona condones. You might want to consider even dignifying this fanatical advocate of torture with more replies as she has no reason, a twisted and evil morality and from what I read, not a bone of humanity in her body. Arguably the worst thing I've ever read on Mudcat, and that's saying something, considering some of the nasties that have been on here over the decade I've been here. I'm pretty fucking upset by that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 11 Mar 12 - 07:59 AM ""The deed of which you speak is righteous, because God commanded it. He gave way for mercy--if the besieged city will surrender, they are spared. But if they refuse to surrender, it proves them to be a people against the Lord and they will be extinguished justly as the Lord's punishment. Indeed, God's ways are higher than our ways. We may not understand fully how they are good. But we know that they are good, because a good God has commanded it."" So making war on neighboring cities and exterminating the populace if they don't surrender immediately is an example of what you call a good God. And what if a larger city decides to lay siege, in the name of God, to the one where you live, will you consider that God's work?.....I suspect that is where your faith will reach its limits. If there is a God, I will stand before him at the appropriate time and say "You gave me free will and I used it to live my life according to what I understood Christ's message to be. I treated my fellow man as I would wish to be treated myself, harming none and helping, to the best of my ability, those who needed help. I did not spend my time in churches or temples listening to prattling fools who claimed to have unique knowledge of your purpose and intentions, being more concerned with actions than with empty words and promises of entry to some elite group who will alone warrant your forgiveness according to how loudly they advertised their worthiness on Sunday mornings. Judge me on that!" Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 11 Mar 12 - 05:51 AM "Even if I believe it's righteous to stone adulterers, and I do, doesn't give me the license to go over and stone my neighbor lady. God hasn't given me the jurisdiction to do that." As I understand it, it was normally adultRESSES who were stoned to death (and are, I believe, still stoned to death in some parts of the world today). That was because their societies were based on patrilineal descent. Men passed their 'property' on to their sons (i.e. male, genetic offspring) after death so they needed to ensure that any male heirs were descended from themselves and they didn't leave all of their worldly goods to some 'bastard' resulting from the wife's indiscretion. So adultery was not originally a crime 'against God' but an economic one based on male dominance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 12 - 01:23 AM The kind of simplistic religion that Biblical literalists adhere to can be dangerous. When it comes down to it, I've never met a Bible-thumping fundamentalist who actually knew the Bible all that well. They tend to read verse-by-verse without getting the whole picture and they don't think. Subtleties (and there are a LOT in the Bible) slide right by them! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 11 Mar 12 - 12:53 AM There is the story of the woman taken in adultery. The scribes and Pharisees confront Jesus over whether a woman, caught in an act of adultery, ought to be stoned. It was the Law of Moses, written in the scrolls, scrolls which were later to become part of the Bible. Before He answered, Jesus knelt down and wrote something in the dust. But what He wrote is not revealed. A bishop of my acquaintance says that he thinks Jesus might have written, "Where is the MAN?" In any case, Jesus responds, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!" He thereby shames the scribes, the Pharisees, and the blood-thirsty crowd into dispersing, averting the prescribed execution by stoning: HERE. When the mob had all left and Jesus and the woman were alone, Jesus said, "Woman, where are your accusers? Are there any here who condemned you?" She said looked about and said, "No, my Lord." And Jesus said unto her, "Then, neither do I. Go. And sin no more." So, Iona, it looks like Jesus does not agree with you. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Mar 12 - 06:06 PM Even if I believe it's righteous to stone adulterers, and I do A person who can say this has NO morality- which is a means of telling whether their actions are right or wrong. In the real world, we have a concept of the rights of others. You might call it "do as you would be done by" put in posh terms. But the writer(s) of the egregious and blood- chilling statement above has not this concept. Their condition is known as psychopathy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:58 PM "So, Shimrod, if murder is moraly wrong because of common consensus (as you say it is), then why should I abide by it?" Because you live in a society in which people have learned, through bitter experience, that if you allow murder then you put everyone's life at risk and you also risk the stability of the society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Iona Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM So, Shimrod, if murder is moraly wrong because of common consensus (as you say it is), then why should I abide by it? Because other people don't like what I do? Why should I follow by the rules of society....since the rules are made by men, why should I respect their opinion when it comes in collision with my pleasure? The Marquis De Sade enjoyed torturing women. So why should he stop? Just because the women and other people in his society didn't like it? Why should he stop the act which gave him pleasure? How about Hitler and his Nazis? They were wrong, you say, because they lived in the Western culture that states that genocide is wrong. Why? Hitler said it was good to dispose of the Jews, the Gypsies, the mentally instable, and the aged. So why was he wrong? Because you find it personally repugnant? Why should Hitler go off of what other people think if it inhibits his own agenda or best interest or enjoyment? I'd like to make it clear that I do NOT believe that I can go around stoning people just because they break the Law of God. God has given the power of the sword to the civil magistrate. Even if I believe it's righteous to stone adulterers, and I do, doesn't give me the license to go over and stone my neighbor lady. God hasn't given me the jurisdiction to do that. Righteousness is defined by God, because God is the definition of goodness and righteousness. Therefore, stoning adulterers, homosexuals, et cetera, is not unrighteous because the righteous God has commanded it. And the fact that you all don't like that doesn't make it not so. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:14-16 Iona "Let God be true, though every man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Mar 12 - 04:52 PM Heheh. OK, Don, the ears are merely plugged with the earpieces of an iPod Shuffle that's been pre-loaded with the Protestant hymnal. The hands must be left free to pray (or, at least wring). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 12 - 04:36 PM ". . . those who shut their eyes, cover their ears, clasp their hands together and turn their faces heavenwards. . . ." Lemme see, now: that's four hands altogether. GOTTA be a product of evolution. Or mutation (which is an integral part of evolution). Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 10 Mar 12 - 04:32 PM " ... the real issue is whether the actual philosophy of the Bible is true or not." Yep, Iona, that is the real issue! But you can rant and rave and thump the pulpit all you like but you haven't convinced me that, "the actual philosophy of the Bible is true" - all I've got is your word (or many, many words) for it. I think you should know that I'm immune to 'preachifying' (yawn!). " ... according to you (or, according to many of you), laws are relative. Morality is relative." To a certain extent morality is relative but within society certain types of behaviour are, by common agreement, proscribed or forbidden. Therefore, in the contemporary US or UK (as well as several other countries in the world), if you stoned your neighbour to death, for whatever reason, you would be apprehended, tried in a court of law and, if found guilty, be punished for your crime. Nothing to do with God or the Bible - just common agreement. "Are laws universal? By laws I mean, laws of logic, laws of mathematics, laws of morality." The laws of mathematics and logic are NOT the same as the laws of morality (and to suggest so is disingenuous). The laws of mathematics and logic have been discovered by generations of scholars who have studied the Universe; the laws of morality are arrived at by common consent within a particular culture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Mar 12 - 04:18 PM "It is absurd for the Evolutionist to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything." G.K. Chesterton Well, Chesterton was a nutter then. Of course it's unthinkable to propose a god who makes everything out of nothing. But "evolutionists" don't think that nothing turned into everything. Both you and Chesterton are/were short of a bit of education as to what evolution is all about. I doubt whether you could answer the first question about it if I asked you. There are none so blind as those who shut their eyes, cover their ears, clasp their hands together and turn their faces heavenwards... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 10 Mar 12 - 03:16 PM I read The True Believer many years ago, and refer to it at times here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 10 Mar 12 - 03:06 PM Bloody HOPELESS!! Not to mention dangerous! Don Firth P. S. Anybody ever read Eric Hoffer's The True Believer? And how the "True Believer" gets that way? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Mar 12 - 02:48 PM If I believe that stoning adulterers is righteous and good, who are you to judge it? Need we say more about this "religion"? Yours is not even a morality at all because you take no responsibility for it, it's all god's idea. This voivce in your head tells you that it's ok to kill people. No it's not. You are a dangerous nutter, and society is quite justified in locking up insane people who threaten others with death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Iona Date: 10 Mar 12 - 02:27 PM "Good- Good is that which agrees and is in accordance with the person and character of God. Evil- Evil is that which is not in accordance with the person and character of God. Evil can also be synonymous with sin: sin is doing what God forbids." [quoting Iona] These arguments always bring forth a reference to God ordering the genocide of the Amalekites at some point. This appears to be the right one. So was murdering them all except the prepubertal girls good, or bad? In the words of John Bunyan, "Therefore thought I, what God says is best, is best, though all the men in the world are against it. Seeing then that God prefers his Religion; seeing God prefers a tender Conscience; seeing they that make themselves Fools for the Kingdom of Heaven are wisest; and that the poor man that loveth Christ is richer than the greatest man in the world that hates him; Shame depart, thou art an enemy to my Salvation: shall I entertain thee against my Sovereign Lord? How then shall I look him in the face at his coming? Should I now be ashamed of his ways and Servants, how can I expect the blessing?" (From Pilgrim's Progress, 1678) The deed of which you speak is righteous, because God commanded it. He gave way for mercy--if the besieged city will surrender, they are spared. But if they refuse to surrender, it proves them to be a people against the Lord and they will be extinguished justly as the Lord's punishment. Indeed, God's ways are higher than our ways. We may not understand fully how they are good. But we know that they are good, because a good God has commanded it. If God says that something is good, or if God commands something, it is good. For me to say otherwise, or to try to compromise and say 'well, that was for the Israelites' would be for me to be ashamed of the Bible. And if I were ashamed of the Bible, I would be ashamed of the God who created me. The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God of the New Testament, and for a Christian to be ashamed of that fact is for a Christian to be ashamed of the gospel. Shame on them. If the God of the NT is different than He was in the NT, then that means that He changed, therefore He is a sinner because He had to repent. It's absurd. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:6) "But the Lord shall endure for ever: He hath prepared His throne for judgment" (Psalm 9:7) "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." (Psalm 119:160) If God is perfect, as the Bible says He is, and if we are sinners who fall short of His glory, as the Bible says we do, it follows that if the NT God is good and the OT God is bad, then God is a sinner because he used to fall short of His own glory. It's absurd. God doesn't change. He is perfect, He is the very definition of goodness and love. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (James 1:17 emphasis added) "God is love" (1 John 14:16). The whole of the gospels depends on the old Testament. Without the OT the NT makes little sense. Some Christians want to avoid the hard questions and try to accept both the Bible and naturalism. But if evolution were true, then there would have been death long before Adam 'evolved' and sinned, and that makes null the worth of Christ's life and death. If death came before sin, then death is not a result of sin as the Bible says. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12) If death is normal, and was happening millions of years before man even existed, then it is not a curse, nor an enemy (which the Bible also says). If this is true, then Jesus' torturous death on the cross meant nothing. The millions of years theory takes away the worth of Christ Jesus and his death on the cross for sinners! "Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal [in some translations, 'fair'] : but as for them, their way is not equal. When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." (Ezekiel 33:17-20) That verse says it right there. WE are the wicked ones, not God. WE deserve death for our sins, WE have sinned against the all-holy Lord God, and no matter how many good things we do we can't earn heaven. All of the goodness in the world couldn't get you to heaven because YOU have sinned, you deserve to die, and so do I. I say "YOU" because I don't believe that words can be minced in this issue. If you're heading for @#!*% , I'm not going to break it to you gently. "The cross does not give us a minor shift or two with regard to a few or our ethical and moral and religious values. The cross radically disrupts the very center and citadel of your life from self to Christ. And if the cross has not done that, you're not a Christian!" (Albert Martin) You're hopeless without Christ. Do you hear? Hopeless! Do you know why? It's because God is perfect. God is holy. And you're not. Know how I know that? Because I can guarantee that you haven't spent 100% of your life and breath loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And that's what God requires. He requires perfection and nothing less than perfection, because He himself is perfect. We run from God, we hate Him because we love our sin. We love our lives and we refuse to submit to His laws and His word. We refuse to acknowledge Him as our authority, because if we did then we'd have to abide by His rules and we refuse to do that. We hate Jesus and we spit on his face and trample His blood underfoot by our wicked lifestyles. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6)Hopeless! Oh, there is no more damnable word than that. Hopeless. In @#!*% the damned shall be consumed with that thought. Hopeless, forever! NOW is the time for salvation, because if we surrender to Christ, He is ready and willing to save us. We can't save ourselves, no matter how much we cry or weep or do 'good' things. Christ alone can save because He alone lived a perfect life and then died in our place. If we surrender to Him, He WILL save you. He has put his own word at stake. You all accuse the Biblical God of being evil. According to whom is He evil? What standard are you using to judge Him? Your own personal opinion? What makes you feel good? What exactly is evil? You see, I have a standard of Good and Evil, and that's the Character of the God of heaven. But athiests don't. They can't account for morality, good and evil, laws of logic, mathematics, and science, except some weak explanation that man evolved it somehow. But I can. Because I start on the simple premises that God is who He says He is, and that simple presupposition enables me to work through any situation or problem logically and reasonably. Y'all can stick to your ad hominem attacks against Christianis, but that's just avoiding the question. It's not about whether the proponents of Christianity, those who call themselves Christians, actually adhere to the doctrines of that Book, the real issue is whether the actual philosophy of the Bible is true or not. Christians are still sinners, and those who call themselves by the name of Christ have done and still do some pretty bad things. The difference is that true Christians are people who belong to Christ. They are His children, and since He is the perfect Father, He can't let his children go astray for very long without punishing them and bringing them into repentance. Let's get back to the core issue. Atheists have no basis for judging God's word as good or evil, since according to you (or, according to many of you), laws are relative. Morality is relative. Therefore you can't judge my morality. If I believe that stoning adulterers is righteous and good, who are you to judge it? Obviously my ethics are different than yours. Are laws universal? By laws I mean, laws of logic, laws of mathematics, laws of morality. If you say no, you are undermining your own argument because here you are trying to impose on me your standards that the Bible is evil. But if you say yes, you have to give an account for why laws are universal, who defines them, and what they consist of. "It is absurd for the Evolutionist to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything." G.K. Chesterton Iona "Let God be true, though every man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 07 Mar 12 - 06:56 PM Or the man in the hospital who knew that he would die within hours, so he called for both his doctor and his lawyer. As he felt himself slipping away, he asked the doctor to stand on one side of his bed and the lawyer on the other. When they asked him why, his weak response was that he wanted to die like Jesus. "Between two thieves." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 07 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM Constantine's deathbed conversion always reminds me of the old story of the dying Jew, who, having heard of the Catholic Church's capacity for last minute forgiveness, called for a priest to help him convert and to render absolution. The priest followed the set format, and when he reached the question "Do you, Isaac, renounce the Devil and all his works?", Isaac replied "Really, father, do you think this is the right time to be making enemies?" Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:24 PM "the religious version of critical mass" Bill, that was good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:14 PM Constantine 'tolerated' Christianity and gave it freedom to operate, even as he was careful about offending Mithra and others...he essentially allowed it to grow & prosper until it reached the religious version of critical mass. |
