BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:20 AM

""They can't stop me, even if they stopped me"" Lil Wayne quote

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:27 AM

Beautifully said, Bee-Dub. We can learn a great deal from ancient myths...and from ancient religious texts...if we are not so foolish as to take them literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:01 PM

But isn't any non-literal interpretation way too subjective to be of any real use? In the case of interpreting the Bible, we are so far removed from the context in which it was written much of the actual meaning must be lost. Certainly the interpretation of most allegorical passages could well be well wide of the mark - the original writers were desert tribesmen living in a massively different world.

If you're reading Beowulf in the modern translated version with no knowledge of the original language with all it's subtleties and wordplay can you really be said to understand the finer points of what the poet was trying to say on a particular subject? Were they joking? Being serious? Perhaps they was referring to some cultural trope which was common at the time of writing but has been long lost? Even with the translation (say of the King James version; the definitive English language translation) much of the symbolism 'translated' (added?) by the translator will be lost as our culture evolves (if you don't believe me, go and stand in front of a Pre-Raphelite painting, write down what it says to you and the read the interpretation given by the painters or contemporaries themselves - you'd be surprised how different they will be and they're not that far removed from us in the timeline of human history).

I'm always intrigued by the interpretation of religious texts. Who chooses which bit is to be taken literally and which is allegorical? Who decides what's relevant to the modern world and what's not? Or perhaps it's some sort of free-for-all of divine revelation where everyone believes what bits they want?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:53 PM

"But isn't any non-literal interpretation way too subjective to be of any real use?"

It is the rigidly literal interpretation that is of utterly NO use, if the original text was not intended literally. Religious adepts in the various mystery schools that existed in ancient times were accustomed to finding the allegorical and metaphorical meanings in sacred texts. It was almost like a code that only the initiated fully understood. Common people back then mostly were illiterate. The texts were not intended to be interpreted by the common people (who probably did take them literally if they heard them). They were intended to be interpreted by trained iniatiates in sacred traditions.

If the writing is allegorical and symbolic, then one must attempt to understand it in a non-literal way to get anything useful from it. One must ask questions, think, analyze, think some more, follow intution, and find the best interpretation one is capable of.

There's no guarantee that your interpretation will be the right one or the best one. But at least you tried! That's better than being a literal-minded doofus and not trying at all.

"Who chooses which bit is to be taken literally and which is allegorical?"

Each thinking person chooses that for himself. That's intellectual freedom.

"Who decides what's relevant to the modern world and what's not?"

You do. Or I do. It's up to each one of us to decide for ourselves.

"Or perhaps it's some sort of free-for-all of divine revelation where everyone believes what bits they want?"

Yeah, everyone does believe what they want. Of course. The question is, what DO they want? If they want harmony and love, then that's what they'll look for. If they want discord, battle, condemnation, punishment, and victory, then that's what they'll look for.

Which of those paths do you think is the wisest? You choose. I choose. Every one of us chooses which bed we're going to lie in. The ancient texts are a guide...but no one can guarantee that a guide will be followed well or badly, can they? It isn't the guide that determines that, it's the nature of the one following the guide.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:53 PM

I think both the Ten COmmandments and the Bill of Rights need a serious, intelligent revisitation. Clarifying the Senior Policies By Which MEn Shall Live Together is a very good idea indeed.

We know it can work--just look at all the positive effects derived from these two sets of maxims. Why, most of our difficulties come from the parts which were badly or ambiguously designed!!

As for those who think science should mix with religion, I suggest they try mixing chocolate milk with brown shoe polish, instead. At least it will constrain the damage.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:57 PM

hi -its the "fool" checking in
children certainly can be impressionable and i think thats evident from the way so many accept evolutionism despite no evidence for abiogenesis,no proven change of one animal to another and the complexity of the once thought simple cell.neither are they told of the large number of darwin doubters among scientists who have not towed the party line.
Its a pity i.m the only YEC creationist here and i dont know if i shall continue stoking your antagonism/mockery.maybe i should just leave you to bolster up your faith position unopposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:05 PM

I agree with the first line. Go and damage impressionable children elsewhere. Or better still not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:38 PM

Richard Bridge,

"If people teach folly they should be treated as fools. Irrespective of age."
"Go and damage impressionable children elsewhere. Or better still not at all. "

What are you trying to teach us? That the children of fundamentalists are NOT damaged until they get to school and only then when there is a paragraph about creationism in their texts?

No it is far better that they learn to judge what is useful for themselves. Give them all sides. If the event that they keep their literalist world view, teach them enough to be able to separate dogma and data at least enough to be scientists and technologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:50 PM

'It isn't the guide following that, it's the nature of the one following the guide'. I agree LH. I have to confess that I sometimes 'do' a Tarot spread, even though as a Christian such things are frowned upon. But I don't do this from a belief standpoint. I use the ancient symbols, myths and legends for meditation. My Tarot deck is a Celtic-based one, and a card representing eg 'quest' or 'search', coupled with a Celtic story, will help me to delve into my mind to find what my mental state might be, how I might proceed, what possibilities are available etc. The legends didn't really happen, the Tarot is not religion, but I find it useful occasionally as a guide or enlightenment tool. Bible stories (esp the OT) may be similarly meant to provoke thought, consider outcomes and form judgements. To take everything literally is one way, but to develop and absorb ideas in an objective way to modify ones morality is another. Both have their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:59 PM

LH... "Thou shalt not value money above brotherhood."

Been to the grocery store lately? A brand name box of crackers is $3.69 but Sobeys' "Compliments" brand is $1.99. Cut-throat bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM

Developing and promoting brands is expensive. There is design, formulation, advertising and legal costs. Having the same factory produce the same product in a white box with your own label is way cheaper. Store labels are a great way to save, if you are not influenced by brand. But how does that tie into my plan to save the US education system from ignorant religious tea party zealots?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:32 PM

You say "the legends didn't really happen", Eliza.

No, they didn't happen exactly as they are told. But something happened. The legend arises out of something that happened, and the legend is a signpost that points toward what happened.

For instance, the legend of a Great Flood is not limited to Judeo-Christian holy books. Similar legends appear in cultures all over the world, and they are tales of a worldwide inundation that affected vast areas, not just a local flood of some sort.

Something definitely happened. It happened in a very remote time. And it is remembered in literally hundreds of legends from separate cultures all over the world. This is something we might do well to look further into, and indeed there are some books that do look further into it, books written not by religious people but by science-minded investigators, and they propose very interesting theories about what may have happened...on a planetary scale.

Needless to say, it wasn't one family and one "Ark" that rode it out. There would have been many survivors in many scattered locations. But each local tribe or culture made up their own legend about it, and they made it a simple and symbolic story that could be passed on through oral tradition...which generally outlasts written records (unless they're carved in stone). Even if they are carved in stone, the alphabet or hieroglyphs they were carved in are often completely forgotten as cultures rise and fall. Oral tales are not forgotten, they are passed on with each succeeding generation. And that's mainly where legends have come from, oral tradition.

The Bible incorporated many of the old legends from a much earlier time period...legends which had been passed on for thousands of years through oral tradition, and they predate both Christianity and Judaism, in my opinion. They probably even predate the Egyptian civilization.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:45 PM

What makes you think that the same flood happened everywhere at once? There is no evidence of that that I am aware of.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:06 PM

This Wiki article summarises what we know about a flooding of the Black Sea and includes links to some academic and other official articles

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:11 PM

"...,no proven change of one animal to another and the complexity of the once thought simple cell."

That is simply incorrect, pete... although the way you phrase it..."one animal to another" is awkward. We don't directly observe a reptile-like animal changing into a bird, but we DO have many carefully documented examples of changes in characteristics, which can make such a changes over hundreds of millions of years.

There are finches in the Hawaiian islands which adapt/evolve in a short period of years to cope with climate changes and El Nino/La Nina.
And any decent text can show you about experiments with fruit flies.

There is a building at the Univ. Of Kansas which houses cabinets with thousands of generations of mouse skins, in order to observe various changes and do DNA research on them. In 40 years, 'mice' don't change to rats or other rodents, but they DO exhibit changes which can only be accounted for by random mutations....billions of generation, under various conditions COULD generate something which was no longer a 'mouse'.

You cannot say simply "no proven change" just because you *suspect* it would violate some religious belief you already hold.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:41 PM

JtS.... "But how does that tie into my plan to save the US education system from ignorant religious tea party zealots?"

Can't say that I thought it did. I was commenting on LH's post to the effect that Sobeys (and Lawblaws (The Real Atlantic Stupidstore)) is attemting to put MANY other companies out of business thru cut-throat business practices and then charge whatever they want. They might not knock down Christies crackers but they sure have put a lot of small(er) businesses in the gutter along with their employees... robots don't need retirement plan.

I was speaking to the quote I provided at the beginning of that post.

BTW... I will NEVER use those check-yerself-out checkouts at the shops. I don't work for Sobeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:32 PM

Anyway, why are Creation and evolution seen as mutually exclusive processes?

There must be a lot of literal thinkers out there. They want Creation to be an event that takes place in a day, I suppose? Or 7 days? And they want science and religion to be, like East and West, the twain that shall never meet?

What foolishness. In really ancient times the scientists and the spiritual leaders were one and the same in society. It was a single discipline...the search for truth, by any and all means possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:56 PM

Jack. Occam's razor.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:12 PM

What makes you think that the same flood happened everywhere at once?

What makes anyone think this fairytale actually happened anywhere at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:37 PM

The flood has some historical/geologic evidence. If you haven't already, read about the Black Sea hypothesis.

There weren't many records being kept then, but stories abound, and the geology is interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:56 PM

Should global warming continue, we are liable to experience a great flood. Science has determined that global warming is a cyclic event.

DING!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:36 PM

Jack. Occam's razor.

The simplest explanation of ancient flood stories on different continents is different floods. or even just that big floods make for memorable stories.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:53 AM

"The flood has some historical/geologic evidence."

You mean A flood surely? This has nothing to do with the Biblical flood which was global on nature. There are countless neocatastrophic events recorded in the geological record, including the regression/transgression of seas etc, and creationists etc love to trot these out as evidence for Noah's flood. For a delightfully misguided creationist interpretation of Mount St Helens and it's relevance to the study of the Biblical flood have a pike at this: Mount St Helens— exploding the old-earth paradigm[pdf]. This analysis is so bereft of scientific interpretation and full of supposition that it's impressive; it's also a typical YE/Creationist document.

LH:
"If the writing is allegorical and symbolic, then one must attempt to understand it in a non-literal way to get anything useful from it. One must ask questions, think, analyze, think some more, follow intution, and find the best interpretation one is capable of."

Even if this interpretation is not in any way what the original authors intended? It seems to me that if it's up to the individual to interpret religious texts based on nothing more than reflection and intuition then these texts are little more value than a scrying glass or tarot cards. When I read the Mabinogion can I really be sure I'm fully understanding the symbolism of the story? Probably not, even though that text is from one of my own cultural traditions. And I'm not arguing against intuition and reflection; they are part of the scientific process but they can only take you so far before you need hard data.

There are many paths to God . . . but I'd argue that what people understand as God is the underlying sense of our own place in the universe. The universe contemplating itself, discovering it's true nature by harnessing our natural curiosity. This is a profoundly spiritual concept but doesn't need a supreme being or a divine act of creation to give it credence - it is testable, reproducible and explicable by science - your very existence is evidence of that, and that is a truly wonderful revelation.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:09 AM

There was no concept of "global" in those times.
The Black Sea event could indeed be the origin of the story, which occurs in the myths of other ccultures of that region, e.g. the epic of Gilgamesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:30 AM

If you scroll up a bit, you can see where Eliza mentions how she enjoys tarot cards and how this helps her. Fair enough, not knocking the fact, whatever floats your boat. Mine's football. If you pushed me, I might add music. They are both abstract, subjective and do it for me.

However, I also note that Eliza reckons that Christians frown on tarot card readings. Why?

If tarot is based on superstition, why should Christians feel uncomfortable about it? After all, I get pulled up for dismissing religion as superstition. If people get touchy about tarots from a theological aspect, they must think their own delusion is the same thing but gift wrapped in gold gild and splendour, (sorry, had a look around the Vatican a few years ago and left feeling angry.) I wonder if there is a moral in this? Petards and hoisting techniques spring to mind.

(I should talk. Found myself agreeing with ruddy Bridge again in this thread. Especially his assertion that Young Earth Creationism if taught is tantamount to child abuse.)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:04 PM

Ian Mather, Congratulations! As someone who voices opinions based upon next to no knowledge of the subject (Why Christianity "frowns" on Tarot cards for example) You qualify as a "faith based" person rather than a reason based one. Certainly allowing children to believe that ignorance based mockery is acceptable is as much child abuse as teaching them religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:10 PM

Oy vey.

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to believe or teach, nonsense.

People only have a right to an EDUCATED opinion. Nobody has the right to ignorance.

And they certainly do not have the right to impose ignorance on their or anybody else's children.

I kind of like the penis analogy... but it's fine not to have one, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:16 PM

As Keith A. says....they didn't even know the earth was round in about 5000 BC. If your whole life is centered in an area of a few days travel, and you 'hear' of someone who has made a long trip, one BIG flood like the Bosporus event can easily lead to legends.
Suppose some guy managed to save his family and a few animals by floating on some debris, and later told stories about it?

Even the bible doesn't speak of 'the world' as a sphere, but uses words that basically mean 'everything we know about'.... which for most people wasn't much.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:16 PM

Oh Damn, oh damn, do I really have to agree with Mither again?

Jack - Occam's razor - one flood or many floods? One flood. A big one.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:31 PM

"People only have a right to an EDUCATED opinion. Nobody has the right to ignorance."

gee, Mrrzy... as much as I usually agree with your basic conclusions, I don't see how that can be defended in any practical OR legal way. At best it is a 'hope' or a description of some ideal world.

Let's just edit your other remark this way: "And they certainly do not have the right to impose ignorance their beliefs on their anybody else's children."

(I don't LIKE it that they can teach stupidity to their children, but all we can do is attempt to provide a better alternative in schools and by example.)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:32 PM

Hello Sailor!

You following me around the threads? I should be concerned being followed by a sailor, especially one who sprung the word homosexual into the "other" thread for no apparent reason when trying to mock me. I've always wanted my own stalker, makes me feel special. Pity it had to be a blasted sailor.. Ah well, so long as you don't make my eyes water.

Yeah, right. Who said Christians frown upon tarots cards? I certainly didn't, you prat. I said that Eliza seemed to think some do, and that, my ho ho ho, barrel of rum, Jack Tar friend, is another kettle of fish completely.

I just noted that if there is something in that, it is hilarious that one superstition wants to have the moral high ground on another.

Look, let's get off the fence here. No problem with seeing happy faces going into church. Live & let live, whatever floats your boat etc.

But I see an increasing desire to reduce society to the age of superstition, stifle free speech, scientific advancement and equality and worst of all, provide convenient but ineffectual answers to peoples' anxieties. It would be rather trite to point out there is no such thing as God and that the bible etc are fairy stories, and many not even nice ones... But as I said, it would be trite to mention it.

Oh, and I might have no knowledge of a subject but there again I might know more than anybody else. The thing is, you don't know which.

So stop saying it eh? There's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:35 PM

"There was no concept of "global" in those times."

I've read the New Testament but not the old so I didn't realise this but thinking about it it's bloody obvious. Is this book a good basis for a world religion and teaching children if it the basic facts are so wide of the mark? It might be an idea to write a third testament in the light of knowledge gleaned since the last one was written. In 200 years time when we have to explain cosmic ecosystems, all those funny little boingy particles physicists keep finding etc and our knowledge has moved on then it'll be time for another one.

Interesting second link Bill D. Someone needs to re-translate the whole Bible again. Then we could all start debating this subject upon reviewing that, a definitive version everyone agrees on (although I guess all men not being equal the pope and other churchy head honchos get a bigger say - get a younger pope for this part of the job). In the meantime, let's teach the kids right and proper and keep the religious stuff in the RE class (or whatever they have these days).

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:42 PM

Mather, I didn't read that last long post of yours because it was addressed to me an your taunts are boring.

Bill,

I think that you have hit upon my purpose in starting this thread. In exchange for a chance to educate their kids, they get a chance, if they can dominate a school board, to say their piece to everyone else's kids, in that school board. At the end of the course, the kids get to make up their own minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:52 PM

"Jack - Occam's razor - one flood or many floods? One flood. A big one."

Are you arguing the faith based side?

One flood that covered the entirety of American continents, Africa, Europe, Asia, and according to Little Hawk's assertion, the populated parts of Australia and most populated islands is the simplest explanation? Even when I was about five years old and first learned the story of the flood, I couldn't take it literally. I realized that there was a finite amount of water and could see that it found its own level. I was not blessed with any special insight. I simply lived near the ocean at a seaport where it rained a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:57 PM

Bill - "they didn't even know the earth was round in about 5000 BC"


That is the common assumption that's in vogue in our present culture, Bill. Our present culture imagines that man came from relatively primitive beginnings a little over 5,000 years ago, and that we now know more than people ever knew before and are now at the apex of man's development on this planet.

I think our culture is utterly mistaken in its view of the remote past, and that there were plenty of people on this Earth a very long time prior to 5000 BC who knew perfectly well that the Earth is round, who understood the yearly path of the Earth around the Sun, who understood the Earth's rotation and inclination on its axis, and the cyclical wobble in the Earth's rotation and how that changed the Earth's position in regards to the various constellations, and who had mapped the entire globe as it existed at that time...and it has changed significantly since that time. There has been movement. There were planetary disasters that virtually wiped out those past civilizations and left some fertile, temperate areas frozen under polar icecaps...and they are probably disasters of a cyclical nature. They can...and may...happen again.

I could point you to some interesting reading on the subject, reading which presents much geological and archeological evidence, but I know I might be wasting my time even trying that, because it's not the mainstream conventional view of the past. I will not talk about it in any further detail on the open forum, because I'd definitely be wasting my time doing that, and it wouldn't make any difference anyway. What could it possible matter whether I got anyone here on this forum to listen to something they're pretty much determined not to listen to in the first place? And if I did convince one or two people here....so what? (grin) What difference would that make either? None, as far as I can see. It might be some salve to my ego...if I chose to bother seeing it that way...but it would make NO difference whatever to anything that actually matters. And I know it.

It would be like talking to people in Europe in the year 1,000 about electricity and the internal combustin engine. They thought they had it all figured out in the year 1,000 too! They figured THEY were the ultimate development of man on this planet! Just ask them...they'd tell you the whole story of their cultural grandeur over all that preceded them. ;-D And you couldn't tell them differently without arousing their scorn, anger, ridicule, all the usual predictable defensive reactions of the conventional mind when it's trapped in its little familiar and very temporary cultural bubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:58 PM

Indeed, Jack.... that's how it works in Texas especially....and Texas buys so many textbooks, that many companies, to avoid printing 4-5 editions, base their textbooks on the ones Texas approves! Thus, Texas' religious conservatism tends to seep into national educational materials.

"...the kids get to make up their own minds."... well, officially, yeah. :>(

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:02 PM

You'll never be educated if you don't read.

Same as kids making up their own mind. Some can, some can't. Makes fertile recruiting ground for those grooming kids into their delusion.

Amen

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:21 PM

well, LH... I am 'generally' familiar with your theory , but as you note, it doesn't have wide acceptance.
My own opinion is that any significant group such as you describe would have left artifacts and/or archeological evidence. Suggesting that those are now under "polar ice caps" is counter to the best geologic/climatological studies so far. (Even Atlantis seems to be gradually being identified as related to Minoan culture and the Thera/Santorini eruption)
We DO have some evidence of our remote ancestors which does not lead us that way....they were pretty primitive. If, as I suspect, you are hinting at some culture which was not our direct ancestors, but possibly alien, I can only shrug. I have my reasons for my skepticism, as you have yours for your suspicions/belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:56 PM

hi bill-i note your comments re mutations.as you say changes in characteristics do occur but i dont think that there is any proven path through life forms from what i call micro to macro change,though i concede that from a materialistic view with deep time thrown into the equasion it must seem plausible.but then again with such great complexity in even the simplest of life,- such change still seems extremely fanciful however much time is envisaged.
regards pete

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:02 PM

""The simplest explanation of ancient flood stories on different continents is different floods. or even just that big floods make for memorable stories.""

The simplest explanation, surely, would be a super tsunami which was sufficiently huge to travel right round the globe.

We know that scientists are expecting the La Palma landslip to produce something of the kind and have evidence of previous events (e.g.the most likely cause of the disappearance of a whole Mediterranean civilisation).

I have no problem with either Creationism or Evolution as concepts, but I have the strongest possible objection to teaching Creationism as science, and would have an equally strong objection to any suggestion of teaching science as a faith.

They are intrinsically different.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:21 PM

With regard to Tarot, I think the Christian objection is to fortune-telling (which is not how I use the cards) The general view is that only God knows what lies ahead. But this is only my understanding of the Christian (in my case C of E) standpoint. Some branches of Christianity are much stricter about this. I only brought up the Tarot example to show how legends, myths, folktales etc can lead to a deeper understanding of ones predicament or situation, as can looking at a lovely view in nature, or listening to music. I see all these as aids to meditation, and one could view the Old Testament Genesis accounts in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:30 PM

pete... you say "...i dont think that there is any proven path through life forms from what i call micro to macro change..."

You'll have to define what you admit as "proven". When evaluating scientific theories, one can always say "it is only a theory", but some theories explain what we observe a lot better than others. You wouldn't 'doubt' that you inherit the color of your eyes from your parent thru a complex system of biological reactions. Eye color is not usually a theological dispute.

Then, if you DO doubt some theory, it is up to you to either explain a better one or to show *exactly* why we need a better one. Scientific theories must be countered with other scientific theories, not simply ignored because one worries they conflict with some 'belief' or opinion. For the last 150 years or so, paleontology and anthropology has been amassing more & more hard evidence that says that what you call "micro to macro change" IS operating... time is the key, and it is hard to comprehend just how much change can happen in many millions of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:49 AM

Thanks for that clarification Eliza. Our nautical friend got on his high horse, but I knew what you meant.

If some people interpret their Christian belief as disdaining fortune telling, Harry Potter, women, Gays or other religions, then all it says to me is that they are afraid of being exposed as "jam tomorrow" merchants themselves. It appears to me that the many people who are most comfortable with their religion are those who don't want it to dominate others, or pick and choose the bits they like. A mate of mine is a devout Muslim, won't touch alcohol or pork, can never get hold of him on a Friday and wastes away during Ramadan. That said, he prefers the interest rates for his mortgage at the building society to the Islamic alternatives. Fair play to him. Do what You feel comfortable with, not what those who get a kick out of controlling others want you to do.

Theology is an interesting subject. Insulting people's intelligence by claiming metaphysical fairy stories to be true isn't an interesting subject, it's a potentially dangerous one. A bit like the prat who say that as I was christened as a baby, I am a Christian like it or lump it. (A bit difficult to form the next sentence without using crude words such as bollocks)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:38 AM

The children do not get the chance to make up their own minds. At School they are marked on compliance with the set text.

Remember the Jesuit motto "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:41 AM

List of many flood folk histories

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html


That many separate ones is the simplest explanation? C'mon!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:17 AM

It appears to me that the many people who are most comfortable with their "lack of religion" are those who don't want it to dominate others.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:10 AM

Touche

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:39 AM

'Remember the Jesuit motto "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".'

I agree. Try also Proverbs 22: 6. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."


Public education has never been about teaching critical thinking skills. It has been and continues to be about keeping the masses (lotsa people, not church services) in line. Why would any government be so stupid as to have its populace learn critical thinking as a life skill? Where would it find people willing to die for rich folks' investments? It might have people wondering why university educations as so damned expensive, so expensive in fact that for most poorer people they are unattainable. Wouldn't want the children of poor people asking uncomfortable questions like "Why are there so many poor people?"

The line quoted by Richard Bridge is often attributed to Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus. However, the sentiment existed long before him. Today, it is part of the fabric of early schooling. School teaches us to be on time, do as we're told, follow rules, vote for political parties that are cosmetically different but substantially similar, obey laws mostly made by rich people and give our money to them at income tax time.

We have grown little intellectually since witch doctor days. We have organizations like the [insert name of country] Medical Association which protects doctors, not patients, and now doctors have become the new shamans--those who hold the keys to life and death.

"The Hippocratic Oath is an oath historically taken by physicians and other healthcare professionals swearing to practice medicine ethically." Yeah, right. From what I've seen over sixty years their first allegiances are to their insurance companies and their investment portfolios. However, schools glorify them and we follow suit. (Before the usuals go all nutso because they personally know a doctor who IS ethical, I've met three or four in my life, too. No doubt someone will mention Albert Schweitzer. Yes, he was a great man. And someone else will talk about Doctors Without Borders, and they are right to do so. But show me those doctors where YOU live. And where have they been since YOU were a kid?)

The legal profession: Well, at risk of being sued or threatened with a suit, I agree with Shakespeare. The exception is my friend Richard Bridge, although after his remarks about singer-songwriters I ain't so sure about that.   

Creationism: I'll bite. Tell me about it. It seems to be an all or nothing thing with some folks. So, let's make it all. If God created everything, then why did he stop creating? The whole world could be put right in the blink of an eye. No more famine, no more war, no more evil, etc. What's God waiting for? Blink already!

Science: It has given us much of which to be proud. And much of which to be ashamed. The science advisers to the American president have always belonged to one of the two main political parties. (I don't know that for fact, but I got ten bucks says it's so.) Why is that? Pray tell, where is the openness and transparency, the science for the sake of science that was so loved of this objective community? Hell, if a scientist did find a cure for one of the major diseases, he'd be shut up real fast--or at least until the pharmaceutical industry was able to get a patent on the drug and charge people a hundred times what it cost to keep some fu#king stock holders happy.

Religionists: y'either walk the walk (I'm thinking of the Joe Offers of the world, a man who gives of his time to a women's shelter, and with no offense meant, at his age time is precious) or ya talk the talk, which is substantially less meaningful.

Anyway, I suppose I've pissed off everyone, so with that, have a good day and lang may yer lum reek. If it smokes too much, call the fire department. They won't care about any of the above or how you (or they) feel about it. Best wishes to all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:46 AM

Amen, Bruce, Amen. - all too effing true.

Especially:Why would any government be so stupid as to have its populace learn critical thinking as a life skill?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:07 AM

999.

87% * of UK doctors don't have any income from insurance portfolios and investments. Allegience to the Hippocratic oath is something I have admired, as I "deal" with different doctors most days and have done for many years. Ok, in such a late group, you have your odd criminal, pockets of incompetence and sadly, many instances of pride overtaking good decision making.

but the hippocratic oath is a good subject to bring up. It crosses ethnic and religious boundaries yet is deep seated in altruism and putting the considerations of others first.

The failings of the USA healthcare system are what they are, but try not to demonise doctors in general eh? It is difficult enough separating the balls from the substance in a religion thread without reading utter crap on more temporal subjects.


(* Source - British Medical Journal article on NHS pension reform circa October 2011.)