BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:21 PM

Actually paul, I am an atheist who believes in telepathy and spirituality.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:19 PM

"... i have never meet anyone who hates "gays, women or fun","

You haven't? I have...(well, some just have an 'unusual' idea of 'fun'.)
I lived for 30 years in the Bible Belt of the USA, and heard almost every fundamentalist, hateful idea expressed or implied. If you do an internet search you can find them by the carload!
It is possible to 'mostly' insulate oneself from those sorts, but they are out there, and they are serious. (You don't know about the church in Topeka, Kansas, which sends people to street corners and to the funerals of veterans to scream that "God hates fags!"?)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM

Most of us have our secret gods Bill.

On the Mudcat haters, I am minded to repeat a cartoon I read several years ago.

A couple of christians waiting outside the Golden Gates to be admitted to the kingdom of heaven.....on their left is a huge queue snaking over the hills to a glowing manhole, where two little devils are gleefully forking the atheists, agnostics etc into a fiery hell.

One christian turns to the other and says......."Dont look so bloody smug now....do they?"

It works on many levels.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM

You really should see a doctor about it ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:02 PM

"So why the constant push to hate gays, women and fun?"

That statement shows a remarkable lack of understanding. I know many people who would define themselves as Christian, go to church occasionally and live a decent lifestyle. Most are involved in community projects,and give their time generously to help addicts, the homeless etc.

They never push their beliefs on to others and hatred is not in their nature....in fact they are most tolerant and sympathetic towards those who suffer problems of any kind.

In fact, i have never meet anyone who hates "gays, women or fun", the only hatred I see is towards a group who has the common sense to see that humanity requires a small roadmap, on the journey from the cradle to the grave.

The statement is also an insult to the many good people on this forum who have any form of spiritual belief, whether through organised religion or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:54 PM

well, nameless troll, there are many of us who assert that 'belief' which is unfounded (which is why it is called belief) can lead to multiple opinions which people are willing to fight over and even start wars over.

There is an **important** philosophic principle which states: "From false premises, anything follows!" Note... that does not prove that anything in particular IS false, but merely that IF you find many, many contradictory claims following from a couple of premises, those premises should be suspect!

Thus:

1)God exists
2)God is concerned and issues rules about our lives & behavior.

what follows? Hundreds of different, and many contradictory, opinions as to what a god might want or control...etc. Since we have no direct, testable proof of either of those two assertions, many sincere, honest, sensible people have serious doubts about whether either or both beliefs are true.

THAT'S why we 'pontificate' when others 'proselytize' and tell us we should believe 'X'...or 'Y'.. or any set of letters. It is not just that they personally choose to believe, but that there are strong forces trying to USE those beliefs to control lives and entire governments.

If personal belief were just kept that way... personal... it wouldn't be so complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:44 PM

Iona, let me put it to you this way:

Your vision of God is too simple. As is that of fundamentalists and Biblical literalists.

God is not some kind of "Super-Gandalf." He doesn't do the things He does, like create the sun, the earth, and the stars, and Man, and all the beasts of the earth by muttering some incantation and waving a Magic Wand.

Evolution is the way He does it. He flips the switch and the process takes care of itself.

A God who is only able to create things AS Is is too--Harry Potter--if you get my meaning.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:41 PM

'god' is a generic name for any number of imaginary deities, whereas Zeus, Apollo etc are proper names of individual fabled entities

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:38 PM

i'm still me!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:25 PM

I was guest...possibly "nameless troll"....but if spiritual belief is ALL bollocks, why do you all spend so much time pontificating about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:29 AM

GUEST,Shimrod,

Perh. a typo then - no quotation marks

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:23 AM

Interesting that both sides actually inclined to discuss this topic had tacitly agreed to let it die, then some nameless troll climbs out of the woodwork seventeen days later and.........HERE WE GO AGAIN!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:23 AM

I think Mr Mather spelled the name of the 'Invisible All-seeing, All-knowing Tooth Fairy in the Sky' with a capital 'G' because he was quoting a book title - which begins with a capital 'G'.

I suspect that we offer the Great Tooth Fairy believers a certain modicum of respect because if we don't we could:

(a) Motivate them to be even more fanatical by activating their 'martyrdom' complexes.

(b) Fall foul of anti-discrimination laws.

(c) Goad them into the sort of murderous rages which their kind have indulged in throughout recorded history and, of course, are still indulging in, in many parts of the world today.

I'm sort of inclined to take those risks, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:21 AM

Oh DRAT! Here I am agreeing with Mither and Myer - at the same time on the same thread. I must be mellowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:16 AM

Sorry ~ don't know what happened there. Maybe God didn't want me to post this!

Arguable point, Mr Happy, ~ perhaps in this context it may be regarded as a proper noun, as being the name of the putative entity even if non-existent: as one would write Zeus rather than zeus, even tho he be not the object of one's own veneration. Surely God, rather than Yahweh or Jehovah or any such alternative, is the actual nomenclature of the deity of the Christians; hence the capital correct?

Let me stress that i have no belief in the entity's existence either. My point in this post is purely semantic and concerned with correctness of usage, not with theological speculation of any kind.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 08:03 AM

GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie

'What's more, why do so many people who agree that it is all bollocks still think saying so is somehow disrespectful? '

??

Possibly a typo [or a Freudian] but you've spelt 'god' with a capital G, above

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 07:31 AM

Ive just been reading about this very subject (I can't ski every day, glass back, so take lots of books with me) and the reference to the finches is a very pertinent one in Hitchens's withering yet fascinating book on medieval superstitions that are still with us, God is not great.

However, before (too late?) everybody gets hot under the collar about this, Hitchens mentions something I hadn't really thought about. He postulates when religion became irrelevant, bearing in mind all superstitious dogma seems to put time and date to their revelations..

It was when observing religion became optional.

So, other than the constant fly swatting of those who want to abuse children by teaching them bollocks as truth, and the endless chore of pretending to respect god botherers who certainly don't respect you back, we can all go home and ponder how evolution has, in my mind, a certain flaw.

It is a couple of thousand years since many superstitions we know today had their origin, and what with flying to the moon, beer and mobile phones, you would have thought our brains were evolving to adapt to our situation?

So why the constant push to hate gays, women and fun? Why do many many people, some of whom can count beyond 10 without taking their socks off still want to bring their imaginary friend to the party of life?

What's more, why do so many people who agree that it is all bollocks still think saying so is somehow disrespectful?

Buggered if I know, ( although that seems to be a right of passage in certain adherence quarters.)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 07:16 AM

Having thought for a moment (not a practice I recommend to the religious) it seems to me that when "religious beliefs" are harmful to society at large and the processes of education and learning in particular, yes, they do need to be justifiable, and should be discouraged if they are not objectively justifiable.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 07:13 AM

Nor grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 06:46 AM

"I'd like to hear somebody give me one--only one evidence for evolution."

Darwin's finches.

The development of resistance of some pathogens to antibiotics.

The mutation rate of the common cold virus.

Polymorphism in Capaea sp. shell colour.

The evolution of the Polar Bear from the Brown Bear.

I could go on but I suspect you're not interested in evidence anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 05:05 AM

Iona et al,

All adherents of the church of the wholly deluded have the same ultimate 'argument' - god made everything to do whatever happens or develops, so any doubters or protagonists can never win the money

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 04:59 AM

"Surely the point is, that no one has to prove their spiritual beliefs?
If I choose to believe in a supreme being, the tooth fairy,the natural life force, or Santa clause, what has it to do with you?"

Yep! You are free to believe anything you like and if you keep your silly notions to yourself you're not required to prove anything.

But if you want other people to respect your 'beliefs' and to afford them special status within society THEN you have to offer some proof.

And if you insist on 'evangelising' and requiring other people in society to live by your beliefs and seek to influence the political process such that other people in society have no choice but to live by your beliefs THEN you have to offer some proof ... but first you can f**k off!!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 04:50 AM

Take that smug grin off your face, Iona, and read a book called 'The beak of the finch by Jonathan Weiner (Vintage Books, 1995) in summary:

"The Beak of the Finch tells the story of two Princeton University scientists - evolutionary biologists - engaged in an extraordinary investigation. They are watching, and recording, evolution as it is occurring - now - among the very species of Galapagos finches that inspired Darwin's early musings on the origin of species. They are studying the evolutionary process not through the cryptic medium of fossils but in real time, in the wild, in the flesh. The finches that Darwin took from Galapagos at the time of his voyage on the Beagle led to his first veiled hints about his revolutionary theory."

Also evolutionary processes happen all the time e.g. when bacteria develop resistance to anti-biotics i.e. those bacterial strains, which are most resistant to ABs, sutvive and propagate themselves whilst those with least resistance are eliminated from the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 03:53 AM

Surely the point is, that no one has to prove their spiritual beliefs?
If I choose to believe in a supreme being, the tooth fairy,the natural life force, or Santa clause, what has it to do with you?

People who feel a need to prove or disprove such things, are intellectually "challenged"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:53 AM

Tell me what you think evolution is, and I'll give you buckets full.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:37 AM

I can't even give you evidence that I am typing this right now.

That doesn't mean a book of discredited fairy stories defying rational observation and experience has any place in discovering the how's and whys.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 12:42 AM

I'd like to hear somebody give me one--only one evidence for evolution.

I'm eager to hear your replies. *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 10:12 AM

" but ask me to explain the tecnicalities of how it happened and i shall have to admit defeat."

There are experts who CAN explain how it cold NOT have happened.... yet you seem determined to believe it anyway. Why not defer to those who DO understand such things?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:12 AM

Correction: 120 feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:06 AM

Reading this thread reminded me of the following cartoon!

Beliefs
KP

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 04:25 AM

"i suggested how the flood could be global but ask me to explain the tecnicalities of how it happened and i shall have to admit defeat."

Try reading something other than the Bible and creationist 'literature', pete, and then you might find that you won't be defeated so often by the "tecnicalities" (or even the spelling!).

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:16 AM

Water level was at least 10 feet lower during the last ice age.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:28 AM

"Young Earth Creationism Eureka!"

Is that the newest vacuum????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:22 PM

No you did not suggest how it could have been global. Not in a way that is consistent with that pesky scientific evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 05:11 PM

i suggested how the flood could be global but ask me to explain the tecnicalities of how it happened and i shall have to admit defeat.
to say that it does not happen is a fair comment-the past is gone.
however you yourself believe in something that does not happen.most of evolutionary theory IMO,but abiogenesis will do for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 12:09 PM

""the lands sank and the sea rose for 40 days, then it all sprang back like memory foam."

Isostatic rebound!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:54 AM

"with the subsequent reforming of the strata leading to higher mountains and deeper oceans than pre flood,- then its a perfectly reasonable"
I don't think it is reasonable, but even if it were, it would contradict the Genesis account. Unless you can show me the part where it says "the lands sank and the sea rose for 40 days, then it all sprang back like memory foam."

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:16 AM

"with the subsequent reforming of the strata leading to higher mountains and deeper oceans than pre flood,- then its a perfectly reasonable"

Huh? How does that work exactly? Please explain the sequence of events and processes that would enable this re-working of the planet's crust to happen (in simple terms if possible).

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 08:54 PM

pete ...Genesis can't tell you HOW there can be a "violent flood from above and breaking out of the earth" is possible. That just doesn't happen-- there IS only so much water...and if your answer is "God can do anything he wants", then your reasoning is circular. You are assuming impossible things to validate your belief that God can do them. If you reason this way, you always 'win', because you build in your own proofs, but you prove nothing about EITHER God or floods.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 08:51 PM

*******

Count:

40 days before the flood receded. The world is 40000km round at the equator. The flood was higher than Mount Ararat (3.2 miles high). So a wall of water, 3 miles high, travelled round the world at 25 miles per hour?

Actually, the flood was around for more like 150 days, if you count up the time hanging around described by Jenny Sis. So we have something more like a 7mph tsunami. Which gives Noah's ark a little more credibility in terms of surviving the wave front, but rather increases the logistical problems of feeding half a million species of animals, without wondering what happened to the plants.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 07:59 PM

I have one question and one only for creationists. How old is the planet Earth?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 02:11 PM

jack-not enough water if you assume a tranquil flood, but if a violent flood from above and breaking out of the earth also as the text of genesis says ,with the subsequent reforming of the strata leading to higher mountains and deeper oceans than pre flood,- then its a perfectly reasonable.
from a creationist perpective the flood stories from many and unconnected parts of the world support a global flood.many are in detail fanciful as in the cube shaped ark [which would turn over] from the gilgamesh epic.by contrast the biblical dimensions suggest extremely good stability.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 11:51 AM

Hey BM, I never get offended, (after all, this is the internet, not reality...) Thanks for acknowledging though. I do get a bit precious when and if I feel people are being demonised unfairly with no right of reply, regardless of if I agree with all they stand for.

Just one thing about Kaiser Permante as others have mention them. We did like their primary care models and they did prove that care with profit can be a good experience for those requiring care. After all, the main difference between state provision and private is where the bottom line sits. If private can bridge that gap with increased efficiency, I don't have idealogical objections to the object of the exercise; providing high quality health care.

Tell you what though, in the real world, I don't half defend The NHS....

Anyway, back to young earth creationism. Are you guys still here?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:57 AM

Richard, there isn't enough water on the planet for one flood to effect everyone. Never was, never will be. Not unless aliens come and flatten all the mountains. Go to Dover when it is raining and watch where the water goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:42 AM

Jack, did it ever occur to you that localised experiences of one large flood would differ?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 03:03 AM

A belief in "goodness" over "evil", is no more idiotic than a belief that a political system which demands that we rob, enslave and butcher one another in its name, can sustain humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:41 AM

Just as a matter of interest, my wife & I have Kaiser Permanente here, and it has been our experience that they do a remarkable job of making patients/members interests foremost. They DO intend to make a profit, but we have none of the horror stories we hear about other HMOs.

They don't have all the best doctors, but they have decent ones, and some excellent ones. If medicine has to be a business, they do a pretty good job of being fair about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 11:50 PM

Ian, you are right.

When I was about seven or eight years old, I had a very wicked ear infection--so bad I banged my head against the wall because it felt better than it did without banging my head against the wall. I don't know how, but my mum called a doctor who came to where we lived and gave me a shot of penicillin, some pills to take, and having seen the circumstances in which we lived charged us $5.00. He was, imo, a saint.

I know doctors from my youth who were like that. I did and do admire them. I find few to do that with today. I do NOT expect free medical treatment. I wouldn't ask a plumber to plumb for free. People have to make a living. But these days, even with a NHP, doctors seem to be 'quite above it all'. I don't know why, because doing a good job at open heart surgery isn't really all that different from doing a good job plumbing. I've held testes that were close to severed, pieces of legs that were held on by thin strips of muscle, heads that could take just the tiniest of moves to render the patient unable to walk or move his arms ever again. Rescue personnel do that daily. But then to have some arrogant shite do a three hour op and charge tens of thousands for what twenty men and women delivered for less than $500, sometimes risking their lives, makes me wonder where the hell our priorities are and what's out of kilt with our world.

I have always liked your wit on this forum, and I apologize if I offended you.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:41 PM

I don't teach my children religious doctrine, I just assigned a different random religion to each one and told them it was their starting point and were free to change mix, match or dismiss their religion at will.

Ahmed was given Judaism, Nathan was a Protestant, Mary was Zoroastrian and Shelly was Amish.
Shelly was so mad she could not use electricity, phones, computers or even ride in the car, she was the first to become a secular humanist. The rest soon followed suit.