Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?

Subject: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:28 AM

Just been listening to the fascinating Radio 4 programmme on the Critics Group. One of the things that rather jumped out at me was that Ewan MacColl dismissed Bob Dylan as "the William MacGonagall of our age" (ie:doggerel poet). Whilst greatly admiring the classic MacColl legacy, he also came out with:-

"Joe Stalin was a mighty man and a mighty man was he
He led the Soviet people on the road to victory."

OK, Score is one-all so far!

But consider:-

Both had assumed names.
Both deeply respected and trawled their own folk traditions, using this in their own writing.
Both were singer/songwriters.
Both wrote protest songs.
Both wrote a number 1 chart hit, although "First Time Ever" didn't happen until 72.

They seem to have had a lot in common in the 1960s -was this just a generation thing, as BD was really following the EM philosophy of exploring your own tradition and using it - the major difference seems to be the 25 years separating their youth - EM would have been heading for the bus pass while Bob was a mere fresh faced youth.

The word "genius" is bandied about a lot, and has been applied to both - don't actually know what Bob made of Ewan?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:32 AM

I have the same opinion of Dylan that Paul Clayton had.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:35 AM

ps: apologies if this has been done before - I did do a search of previous threads!

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:36 AM

EM
"Kissed her once again at Wapping
After that there was no stopping."

BD
"Buckets of blood. Buckets of tears.
I've got buckets coming out of my ears."

Two all.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:42 AM

Maybe he realised that Dylan could neither play nor sing.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:47 AM

But do we know whether MacGonagall could sing or not - just his writing was crap! I assume he was referring to BD as a writer by the comparison.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:07 AM

perhaps EWAN saw Dylan for what he was an aspiring pop star.
MacColl along with others helped to create the uk folk club scene, MacColl was committed to social change, Dylan was committed to looking after number one, yes he wrote some good songs[about 5], Dylsan [imo][used people such as Joan Baez to further his pop career

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:17 AM

But he's also been considered as a nomination for a Nobel Prize for literacy which perhaps puts him on a bit higher plane than Barry Manilow.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:18 AM

Sorry "Literature" not "Literacy"

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:45 AM

I've never been a huge Dylan fan but, looking back over his work through the years, I would say that the voice of the young Dylan was actually quite striking - instantly recognisable - as were many of the songs. Whether you like them or not is a matter of taste. I would agree that he was an average guitar player, harmonica player and pianist.

As for cashing in on the talent of Joan Baez to further his career, the documentaries I've seen of the two of them in the early days appeared to demonstrate the opposite - that Baez clung to the rising star of Dylan at every opportunity to further her career. But, once again, that's my interpretation of the facts as I've seen them.

I can take or leave Dylan and, for different reasons, can take or leave MacColl. The programme on Radio 4 was certainly very interesting.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:21 PM

DYlan and Baez were both opportunistic and had large egos. Comes with the territory, I suppose.

But Dylan has never been known for his likeability. That might be part of MacColl's reaction to him.

ANother aspect is that Dylan, like Guthrie before him, composes in a peculiarly American idiom, which lacks key qualities respected in the English tradition.


A

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:29 PM

MacColl didn't like lots of things.

Frankly, if MacColl didn't like it, it was probably good.

That didn't stop him (MacColl) making quite a few good records.

And it certainly didn't stop Dylan making quite a few brilliant ones.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:41 PM

I suspect it was primarily, as Acorn4 suggested, a generational difference that caused MacColl to dislike Dylan and regard him as "the William MacGonagall of our age" (a hilariously inapt label on MacColl's part). Dylan has succeeded in gaining massive international respect and recognition fpr his work...MacGonagall succeeded in gaining much laughter (they were laughing at him, not with him) and avalanches of hurled fruits and vegetables at his live performances.

But there's no reason to disparage either Bob Dylan or Ewan MacColl. They both recorded excellent material, and I enjoy listening to both of them.

MacColl came from the old UK folk scene which had (and still has) its own very strong preferences and ideas about what "folk music" is...or should be. Dylan didn't fit that mold at all, so I'm not a bit surprised that MacColl didn't like Dylan's songs.

****

TheSnail - the actual lyrics in the verse you quote from are:

"Buckets of rain, buckets of tears
Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears
Buckets of moonbeams in my hand...
You got all the love, honey baby, I can stand"

Nothing wrong with those lyrics! They are perfectly acceptable metaphor for the joys and heartaches of romantic love, they roll off the tongue nicely, and they are fun to sing. The music in that one is pretty good too.

*****

As for being opportunistic (Dylan? Baez?)...who the hell isn't if they are seriously intent upon having a viable and successful career in music?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:47 PM

"Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?"

Perhaps something as simple as jealousy. After everyone has had their shot at Dylan, he has done more for music than MacColl ever did (from a North American perspective).

Dylan's finger picking in his earlier work was as rawly refined as finger picking gets. And his approach to blues was also good. I still see people nailing him for his voice. IMO, MacColl was not much of a vocalist--certainly not as much as HE thought he was. I found him to be quite 'put on' in some of his material, and maybe just a tad precious about his place in the music world and his affect on it.

None of it is news that musicians ride each other's coattails. You need proof, look at the crawling up each other's arses that happens on Facebook. Great songs from MacColl? Indeed. Some of his songs have stayed around for decades, and that speaks to the value of his writing. His Radio Ballads are brilliant works of art and meaning: protest at its best. But please don't try to turn him into a god-like writer or performer. He was a guy making a living, just like Dylan.

Dylan has been Dylan since the early 1960s. Many of his detractors are as good in their best moments as Dylan was in his worst. Perhaps people generally don't know what's good. They do know what they like, however. And looking back, more people liked Dylan than liked MacColl. IMO.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:50 PM

Sheesh. Yesterday I'd click five times to get a post to take. Today I'm getting two for one. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:55 PM

While I was no great fan of Baez, the occasions I happen to bump into films of her early performances I am astounded by the excellence of her voice.

Dylan's voice was and remains extremely unpleasant, somewhat like a wasp in a kazoo, and it is far far too charitable to call his guitar playing or harmonica work as "average".

I don't much like much of MacColl's composed work, but he did do valuable research work and helped preserve much folk song. I love his politics - but hate the fact that he was a fake professional Scotsman. Still, at least he pretended to be something, unlike Dylan who merely pretended not to be what he was.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:59 PM

Nerve-wracking, isn't it? It's like having a gun that shoots sometimes when you pull the trigger...not necessarily when you want it to...

I'd sure hate to be in battle under those circumstances.

I think it's sheer envy or else utter incomprehension that causes most people to slag Dylan. God knows, they've got quite a bit to be envious about! ;-)

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:05 PM

"Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears"!?

Sorry, but it jars in an otherwise excellent song just as MacColl's Wapping/Stopping rhyme spoils Sweet Thames for me.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:07 PM

Sometimes I'm glad that I am totally ignorant of the technical aspects of music - that way I can appreciate whoever I like to listen to.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:08 PM

Several folks have made a career out of disparaging Bob Dylan. Bob never made claims to be a protest singer or a revolutionary, so those who feel he sold out his principles weren't listening in the first place. Dylan committed the unforgiveable sin of scoring enormous popular success and having his songs covered by everyone from Joan Baez to the Turtles. That success does nothing to diminish his craft in my opinion.

Songs like Blowin in the Wind, Don't Think Twice, All Along the Watchtower,Like a Rolling Stone, and countless others earned him the title of Spokesman for a Generation, but he laid no claim to it. The songs attained tremendous success because they were accessible and well written.

Is Dylan a poet? He has never said that, to my knowledge. And while many of his lines hold up to comparisons to Cummings and Eliott, there were clearly a lot of weak rhymes and tongue-in-cheek images.

No the only claim Dylan ever made for himself was that he was a songwriter. And in my opinion, he's not only right, he is one of the very best, no matter what Ewan MacColl says.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:09 PM

The comment Ewan about not liking Dylan because he was steeped in the American tradition doesn't really hold water considering who his partner was.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:10 PM

" I love his politics"

what, even his Stalinism and Maoist phases? What about his homophobia?

When I read the two MacColl biographies, I often thought it's a shame he hadn't been born a decade (or so) later. The boy done good in many ways: he had pretty much no schooling, but made radical and intuitive connections between politics and theatre, and then politics and song. But he was way too hampered by reactionary, authoritarian, top-down notions of class struggle.

That oh-so-literal pamphleteering is all there in his lyrics. But it has none of the back-to-basics sneer of punk: instead it's an ersatz lyricism that in many ways patronises its subjects.

Me, I think MacColl's art was at its best when it was at its most fusty and antiquarian. His Broadside Ballads are the kind of beautifully mildewed steamfolk that I'm sure Sedayne would dig (if he doesn't already). I like Ewan MacColl best when he sounds posh - it's, ironically when he sounds the least affected: he sounds a bit like Tom Baker as Dr Who.

(There's also the early MacColl, duetting with Isla Cameron, in which he doesn't overthink things: a rare instance of MacColl doing a lyricism that doesn't try to valorise The Working Man the way Soviet Propaganda films did)

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:04 PM

Matt, your post tends to echo what I've said at the beginning about the "generation" thing. E Mac was a near contemporary of Woody Guthrie ( whom BD of coures originally modelled himself partly on)- during the thirties they were both doing the same thing of irritating and generally getting up the noses of the "establishment".

For EMac the folk singing/writing seemed to be a mid life career change having been basically involved in theatre when he was young.

If he'd have been a generation later, might he have gone in the same direction as Bob? Could he not recognise someone who had a lot in commmon with himself when he was younger?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,SirCoughsalot
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:20 PM

Because Dylan played rock and roll.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:29 PM

yep there's always that, Sircough

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:30 PM

because he saw him as a mediocre lyricist?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:39 PM

Pray tell !! Is there a 'Folk' law that says any of us MUST like anything ?? In MY opinion its a pointless question !

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:00 PM

Yep, Terry, Article 12 Section 9 says "..and no one shall criticize, or speak to the detriment of, the following: Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly, or Cisco Houston." Therefore its still open season on Ewan and Bobby.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:02 PM

In a similar vein, MacColl to Bert Jansch (possibly apocryphal): "Ah yes, my children have some of your records."

MacColl seemed to be a pompous, opinionated, self-obsessed and unpleasant man on the evidence of the programme - in that aspect he'd have fitted in very well on Mudcat. He wrote some good songs. His singing hasn't aged well. Now of historic interest only.

Whether Dylan wrote more good songs or had a more attractive voice is entirely down to personal taste. Arguably - from their relative fan bases - Dylan had much more charisma, unless you were part of the MacColl inner circle.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,SirCoughsalot
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:14 PM

Well, from what I hear, Bobby isn't exactly Mr. Congeniality either. He seems stuck up, most of the time. But I like his music. Ewan MacColl didn't like the Pogues either when they did Dirty Old Town. The joke was on him when his daughter joined them for Fairytale of New York.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,guest Jim Younger
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:49 PM

I don't get the "Dylan is a mediocre guitarist/harmonica player" bit at all. He's a damn fine flatpicker who is willing to take a chance out of first position - and as good a harmonica player (in his own way) as he needs to be ... which is pretty good to my ear.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM

That's right. And I might also mention that Rick Fielding, who is virtually a saint on this forum....and who was a great man, I might add...often said that he thought Dylan was a really fine guitar player and harmonica player and songwriter. I heard him say that. I saw him say it on this forum.

What was he then, just another deluded Bob Dylan fan?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: zozimus
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:42 PM

My understanding was that Dylan got up a lot of people's noses in the U.K Folk scene by recording their sessions and then using the melodies for the songs he wrote, of which there are numerous examples. Perhaps this is why MacColl did'nt like him. As regards Bob's singing voice, he can sing clearly and distinctly when he likes. Himself and the late Liam Clancy used have great crack where Bob would imitate Liam's voice and Liam would imitate Bob's. However, both had a great feel for what sells, and kept this to themselves.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:59 PM

that is hilarious from Folknacious, personally I think i would rather pass my time with Ewan, for all his faults, than Pooters like foLk nacious.
Maybe he just didnt like him, does he have to have had a reason, Imean I dont like the cyberspace folknacious, although in real life he might be as good company as Oscar Wilde, do i have to have a reason for liking cyberspace folknacious, does Ewan have to have a reason for disliking Dylan, if he disliked him

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,SirCoughsalot
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:19 PM

Does this really have to come to personal attacks?

Regarding Dylan's guitar/harmonica playing: They're a lot like his voice, I guess; they aren't for everybody. I mean, music's all subjective. Personally I like Dylan's guitar playing. Most of the time it's not fancy, but it does what it needs to do, and he can play some really good stuff. His first album is one of my favorites, and he plays some great blues on it. His harmonica playing, while I agree it is not technically perfect and sometimes is borderline off-key, is the reason I play the harmonica and I still like it. It's good enough for me. Heck, I even like his singing.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: tonyteach1
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:46 PM

In my youth in the 60s and 70s selling out ie actually making money out of writing and performing was regarded as not the done thing by certain sections of the UK folk world


Mr Dylan has made and probably continues to make a lot of money out of his songs - good luck to him I cannot stand his voice but thats my problem not his

He has remained a top performer for over 40 years some people choose not to like this

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:48 PM

His harmonica playing is a little bit on the sloppy side, but it's effective for what he does. His guitar picking is the same, but I would rather listen to the people he learned from.


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: meself
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:19 PM

Of course, his harmonica-playing, like his singing, is SUPPOSED to be a little bit on the sloppy side.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:28 PM

"I think it's sheer envy or else utter incomprehension that causes most people to slag Dylan. God knows, they've got quite a bit to be envious about! ;-) "

Really? I don't envy Dylan at all. I just find him boring and mediocre. His commercial success always seemed, to me, to be at odds with his unremarkable talents as a musician and a singer, and his rather average lyrics.

I think it's a case of "The Emperor's New Clothes"!

Spokesman for a generation? Yeh, right!

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:30 PM

Dylan played harmonica exactly like Woody Guthrie. And Steve Earle plays like Dylan. And Jay Farrar plays like Steve, as does Colin Meloy of the Decembrists.It's a style that has more to do with guitar players honking on harps in neck holders than anything, and I happen to like it.
Here is Meloy playing Woody-style. Has a nice wild sound to it. It ain't James cotton, and it ain't for everyone, but I dig it.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Charlie Claude
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:31 PM

Its not supposed to be, I dont think he intentionaly tried to play the harmonica bad. And concerning the Question, lots of people dont like dylan.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,SirCougsalot
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:54 PM

Dylan most certainly did not play exactly like Woody Guthrie. You can listen to Woody Guthrie playing the harp, and listen to Dylan, and you can surely tell the difference. I agree with Mr. Claude.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:56 PM

GSS, I am speechless.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: meself
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:03 PM

I disagree with everybody. Dylan plays harp the way he wants to, to get the sound he wants. He's been playing guitar with harp in the rack for fifty or sixty years now; with very little effort, he could play as cleanly as you could wish - it's not that hard. He doesn't want a clean, polished sound. And I don't think he plays "bad" by any means. He plays in a manner that is consistent with and contributes to his overall sound, which is the whole point.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:54 AM

I'd agree with that. Anyway, if you listen to his whole catalogue, his harmonica playing varies a great deal. Sometimes it's wild and primitive, sometimes it's gloriously ornate, sometimes it's very clean, sometimes it's joyously bluesy, depends on the song and the occasion.

That goes for his voice too. Through his whole career you hear a lot of different vocal styles from Bob Dylan.

Melodeon Boy - I didn't say that everyone who doesn't like Dylan is envious. I said "I think it's sheer envy or else utter incomprehension that causes most people to slag Dylan."

There's an "or else" right in the middle of that statement. I do gather, yes, that you are not envious of Mr Dylan.

While I think there are some songwriters who are at times as good...or better lyricists than Bob Dylan...I sure don't think his lyrics are mediocre. I think they're exceptional in the case of a good half of his material. Mediocre in some of his songs? Yes. But in other songs he did things lyrically that were utterly revolutionary for the time in which he wrote them, that changed the whole scene in a lasting way, and people were blown away by those songs...specially in the years 1963-66.

Joan Baez has said of Bob Dylan that he wrote "the best songs", and that people either get what Dylan's saying...in which case his stuff goes "way deep" for them...or they don't get it, in which case it makes no impression at all on them.

Sounds to me like that's what you experience when you hear his songs. They don't connect for you. That doesn't mean they're mediocre, but you will probably always think they are, and there's not a thing anyone can do about that.

It's like me and Sinatra. While I do realize he was very good at what he did, I just can't relate to it. He radiates an attitude and a lifestyle that I can't identify with, therefore he simply doesn't move me at all. This doesn't mean Sinatra is mediocre. It just means he doesn't represent anything I can believe in.

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:56 AM

(Oh, by the way...I think Bob Dylan really likes the way Sinatra sings. But I don't.)

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:32 AM

On Dylan's poetic merits ~ Might be worth drawing attention to this, perhaps unexpected, enthusiast, whom I knew slightly and used to discuss Dylan with when he was a fellow of my Cambridge college, Christ's, before he went to Boston:

--Sir Christopher Bruce Ricks, FBA (born 1933) is a British literary critic and scholar. He is the William M. and Sara B. Warren Professor of the Humanities at Boston University (U.S.) and Co-Director of the Editorial Institute at Boston University, and was Professor of Poetry at the University of Oxford (England) from 2004 to 2009. He is the immediate past-president of the Association of Literary Scholars and Critics. He is known as a champion of Victorian poetry; an enthusiast of Bob Dylan, whose lyrics he has analysed at book-length... ~ wikipedia

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:18 AM

Forgive me but I find that there is an element of 'light the blue touch paper and run' about this kind of thread title.   I mean, frankly, who cares?

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:30 AM

Well, obviously, Guest, all the people who have taken the trouble to post. So what a silly question!

~M~

Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:36 AM

MacColl had made up his mind about Bob Dylan long before he ever plugged in an electric guitar as between 1963 and 65 there were a whole raft of articles and interviews where he continually dismissed Dylan. "A youth of mediocre talent", "his poetry is punk, re-hashed Ginsberg, terribly old hat", "he has muddied the pool where folk song is concerned" were among his descriptions of Dylan and in a memorable interview with Karl Dallas in Melody Maker around 1965 he launched a scathing attack on Dylan in particular and the American singer/songwriters in general (Paxton, Baez, Ochs etc) "Are they the voice of young America? Yes, and that's more the pity; they are not saying anything with which Lyndon Johnson could disagree" He went on to declare if they wanted to hear protest singers then they should listen to Aunt Molly Jackson.
Maybe it was because the works of the young Americans was reaching an audience far wider than the folk scene? I don't know.
What I did know was at the time, as an impressionable teenager, it put me in an awkward position as they were then, and remain so to this day, my two favourite songwriters