Paypal orders violin to be destroyed

Subject: RE: Paypal orders violin to be destroyed
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:31 AM

I'd be go to hell before some company could make me do such an horrific thing! The buyer should be ashamed and banned from owning any instruments, IMO. Who could be so "proud" of destroying such an instrument and showing off the remains?

Subject: RE: Paypal orders violin to be destroyed
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:57 AM

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=21665

Subject: RE: Paypal orders violin to be destroyed
From: GUEST,The Walrus
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:45 AM

Surely, by ordering the destruction of such an item (still the property of the seller, as payment had not been made) haven't both PayPay and the would be purchacer opened themselves up for accusations of theft and wanton destruction of property, with the appropriate legal measures to follow?

Tom

Subject: RE: Paypal orders violin to be destroyed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:30 AM

Has anyone a suitable address at which to harangue Paypal?

I have posted the regretsy link to my Facebook.

Subject: RE: Paypal orders violin to be destroyed
From: caitlin rua
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:22 AM

That story is absolutely horrifying - and I'd be interested in a legal opinion as to whether they have the right to destroy someone else's property just because they say they have. Otherwise, what have we got laws for?

> Paypal are now investigating. My guess is that they'll decide it was a regrettable mistake either by the computer or an overzealous employee. That won't give me any reassurance that it couldn't happen again.

And if they decide it was a regrettable mistake, they are going to replace a unique antique violin how?

Perhaps if this shameful story goes viral it will help to persuade them. A meme on Twitter and/or Facebook can build up a true tidal wave of bad PR. And public reaction does count for something when it attains a certain level of critical mass. (Didn't Verizon just rescind a new $2 "convenience charge" because of the customer outrage it caused? I also remember that Facebook did an about-face PDQ in the wake of users' reactions when they tried to claim that they "owned" all the photographs which people had put up.) If the stink is big enough, the big boys will take notice.

This needs to go out in the blogs and Twitter/Facebook feeds of a few well-known musicians & journalists, with a request to Retweet or Share. THAT'll get someone's attention. If moral rights or wrongs don't impress Paypal, maybe international embarrassment will.

Subject: Paypal orders violin to be destroyed
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:36 AM

I'm a little surprised this hasn't already been posted, since it's been around a few days and has now gone viral. This appears to be the blog which started it all:

Regretsy

The difficult question seems to me what is "counterfeit". It's one thing to identify a fake Rolex, but it's an entirely different situation with antiques and musical instruments where mislabelling and misattribution is more common, and may be no more than a difference of opinion which even experts disagree on. To order the destruction of an item, apparently without expert evidence from both sides in the dispute, seems unacceptable to me.

Even if an item were clearly identified as "counterfeit", what authority has Paypal to order its destruction? I fail to see how putting in their T&Cs gives them authority. Paypal does not own the item, and neither does the recipient since they have raised the dispute. It may be both illegal and undesirable to return fakes to the original seller, but surely in that case they should be passed to the police to investigate a possible criminal case. Surely destruction of an item can only be ordered by a court, or some other legally empowered authority, based on evidence that the item actually is a fake. But I'm not a lawyer.

Dealers are usually careful to describe something as "labelled as ...." rather than making definite claims, unless there is clear provenance. A private seller may be less cautious, but this is more likely to be naivety than a deliberate attempt to deceive (and most definitions of "counterfeiting" require dishonest intent).

Paypal are now investigating. My guess is that they'll decide it was a regrettable mistake either by the computer or an overzealous employee. That won't give me any reassurance that it couldn't happen again.

The message seems to be, don't sell instruments or other unique and irreplaceable items via Paypal. Unless they're bodhrans, of course :)