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The Roud index - any order or logic?

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Steve Roud Index Now Online (10)
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GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Jan 12 - 12:53 PM
RTim 11 Jan 12 - 02:07 PM
treewind 11 Jan 12 - 02:11 PM
RTim 11 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,SteveG 11 Jan 12 - 03:54 PM
Little Robyn 11 Jan 12 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Jan 12 - 04:36 PM
Snuffy 11 Jan 12 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 11 Jan 12 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Steve Roud 11 Jan 12 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,SteveG 12 Jan 12 - 03:20 PM
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Subject: The Roud index
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:53 PM

They say the only stupid question is the one that is not asked. With that in mind is there any order or logic to the Roud index (no offence honestly) It works brilliantly for comparing versions of songs however if you were to wish to use it the other way (i.e. looking for subjects and then comparing) would you for instance find Ballads in the low Roud numbers, Sea Songs in the double figures, Industrial songs in three figures etc. etc. Or as is very likely am I way off beam, and there is already a subject/song search method incorporated. Thanks
Nick


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: RTim
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:07 PM

No - I don't think there is any logic. You have to go to Malcolm Law's Index for the sort of logic you are talking about.
There may have been something when it started, but so many references sources have been added since then, I think it would be impossible now?

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:11 PM

I hope you're looking at The Roud Index On Line where you can do pretty comprehensive searches for words in any field or fields.

As far as I know the index numbers themselves don't mean anything.


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: RTim
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM

Nick - What you can do is use the Bibliography Ref. Number - it appears in red in the index that treewind points to above.

If you enter a Ref. that appears for say a Book of Sea Songs, its will list all the songs in that book.
If that helps?

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:54 PM

Nick,
The Roud Indexes are exactly what they say they are, INDEXES, not concordances, or thematic anthologies.


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:01 PM

It's times like this when I remember, and miss, Malcolm Douglas.
He knew the Roud index better than anyone I know!
Robyn


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:36 PM

Fair comment Steve G. It was not supposed in any way to be a critcism, just an enquiry as to wheather I was using the Index to it's full capacity.
Thanks to Robyn as well.I've followed your advice Tim and it helps
Thanks.


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:40 PM

It looks like Steve Roud started with the more common songs, and then adds them from various sources (albums, books, manuscripts, etc)as he comes across them.

Most of Harry Cox's songs already had numbers, but 16059 to 16061 appear to have been added from the Bonny Labouring Boy album; many of Walter Pardon's less common songs lie between 13630 and 13680 with a few more around 15130; and the songs in the Carpenter collection not previously indexed come in from around 22900 to 23400.


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:19 PM

Robyn wrote:
It's times like this when I remember, and miss, Malcolm Douglas.
He knew the Roud index better than anyone I know!

we all miss Malcolm Douglas, but I suggest that Steve Roud probably knows the Roud index better than anyone does or ever did.

I think the index grew like Topsy.... new songs get added, with new Roud numbers, as time progresses, not in any other systematic way. See the recent Bill Smith CD on Mustrad ... a lot of new and consecutive Roud numbers for songs from the music hall etc that had previously not been recorded or noted orally.

Derek


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: GUEST,Steve Roud
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 07:21 PM

I'm pleased that people find my indexes useful and worth discussing, although it's a little disconcerting that nobody thought to ask me the answers. I met a young student recently who had been using them and she said, 'Oh, I presumed you were dead', so that might explain it. I can say categorically that Roud numbers have no meaning in themselves - whenever I encounter a new song it gets the next number. It stands to reason that I encountered the common songs first, but the order in which they appeared is sheer chance. This really is unavoidable in an open system like mine. Laws could give things meaningful numbers because he first gathered all the songs he wanted to include, then sorted and numbered them.
As Steve G and others have commented, my indexes are not designed as classification schemes, but simply a way of finding things.
I'm acutely aware that we really need a subject-index approach and would dearly love to provide one. I have several times got half such a scheme devised but have always had to lay it aside for other more pressing projects, including keeping the indexes growing. But I'm not the only one interested in such an approach, and I flatter myself that such a scheme is now more feasible because my indexes will help the compiler gather things together more easily. In the meantime, a judicious use of keywords in the TITLE, FIRST LINE and SUBJECT fields will often yield good results. If you're interested in sea songs,for example, many of them will include the word 'sea' or 'ship' or 'sailor' somewhere in those fields.
Regards to all
Steve Roud


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Subject: RE: The Roud index - any order or logic?
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:20 PM

Welcome aboard, Captain!


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