Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee

Subject: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 03:54 AM

This song, known as the Coffeepot Song in the database, intrigues me. Where's it come from?

John Bartlett posted the following in another thread:

Graham Pirt, I note you know something about "Proper Cup of Coffee", which I've been looking for (info, that is). Could you post it to me at [e-mail]? Thanks a million

Apparently, he's wondering, too. Can anybody tell us a story behind this great song? On their Voices of Winter CD, Priscilla Herdman, Anne Hills, and Cindy Mangsen do a great medly of this song with "The Frozen Logger." Great CD - and it's in season again.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: alison
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 04:18 AM

Hi,

It's the sort of thing they used to make us sing at pantomimes speeding the chorus up..... so my guess is it came from the music hall days...... mind you it is only a guess and I'm probably completely wrong.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Baz
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 04:37 AM

As far as I know it was written back in 194? by John Foreman a collector and writer of Cockney songs.
Regards Baz

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: AndyG
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 04:40 AM

I'm afraid I don't know much about the history if the song but here's my version of the lyrics as heard performed by Cosmotheka (ask Steve Parkes), but collected from the sheet music (includes the fourth verse). Unfortunately I didn't note down the author(s) as I didn't expect to lose the score.
Ho-hum.

AndyG

---

A Proper Cup of Coffee

The sultan sat on his oriental mat,
in his harem, High Street, Persia,
And he took a sip of his coffee just a drip,
and he said to his slave oh curse ya,
Oh curse ya, curse ya, curse ya,
it's the 'orriblest coffee in Persia.

What I want is a proper cup of coffee,
Made in a proper copper coffee pot,
I may go off my dot,
But I want a cup of coffee from a proper coffee pot,
Tin coffee pots and iron coffee pots the're no use to me,
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee,
From a proper copper coffee pot,
I'll have a cup of tea.

King Solomon with his queen would carry on,
so we read in ancient scandals,
And he gave her lots of silver coffee pots,
with diamond spouts and handles,
But said the Queen of Sheba,
I'd rather have any old Tea Bar.

Old Bonaparte thought that he was in the cart,
when he lost that Waterloo fight,
And he held his sword up to Wellington the Lord,
and he said "You British you do fight."
You've won your Waterloo Sir,
now what am I having with you Sir.

In days of old when Knights and days were bold,
and the whisky was much cheaper,
Dick Turpin rode to a coffee stall and showed,
his gun to the coffee stall keeper,
He says stand and deliver,
good heavens I'm all of a quivver.

---

Music Hall
Cosmotheka

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 05:56 AM

Like Alison, I remember the chorus as a progressively faster split audience pantomime singalong but never knew the verses. Thanks, AndyG
RtS

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 07:39 AM

I have to agree with BAZ as to the source. Bert is pretty well acquainted with John Foreman's stuff because his father sang a lot of Foreman's songs. Maybe he has more to add here.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 07:56 AM

I hope so, Allan! I saw John Foreman back in 1972. Brilliant, or what? Is he still around?

I was one of the resident performers at Barrie Roberts' weekly Music Hall in Birmingham, so John and I performed on the same stage, as did Cosmotheka a week or two later (go on, ask me!).

Steve

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 08:09 AM

Bert said last night on the Mudcat Radio that Foreman's estate seemed to be holding tightly to all of his lyrics, so I guess that would mean he is no longer with those of the living.

Okay, I'll bite. What the heck does Cosmotheka signify?

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 09:08 AM

FYI Trout Fishing in America also do a version of this song on their album "Big Trouble".

Okiemockbird(T)

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Rana
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 10:17 AM

The version I've always heard (and it is often asked for) is Ontario based County Vaudeville who do a lot of the old music hall songs.

Rana

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 12:24 PM

Cosmotheka is (are?) Dave and Al Sealey, who research, record and, more importanty, perform Music Hall songs. They're very funny (except when they're being serious). The Cosmotheka was a London Music Hall in the 19th century. Dave and Al say "it was a bit seedy, a bit dirty and a bit run down ... and we're a bit seedy ...!"

Roberts and I worked with them many times ... ah, the good old days! (note small letters!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 02:07 PM

I have an Andrews Sisters recording of this song from 1958 that credits A. Gershunoff and E. Pellegrini as writers--but Alex Gershundoff was studio musician, a sax player, I think, for the NBC studio orchestra and Capitol Records, at that time- However,I have read that it was an old music hall tune, written by either Weston and Lee or by the same people who wrote "Istanbul (not Constantinople)--

The melody, curiously, sounds like it is a Turkish classical melody--

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: bigJ
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 03:07 PM

According to the notes on Cosmotheka's 1981 LP 'A Good Turn Out' - on which they sing 'Proper.....' - "It's from the rather doubtful singing of Ernie Mayne" (a music hall/ vaudeville singer).

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: bigJ
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 03:09 PM

Just forgot - John Foreman was at the (English) National Folk Festival a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: poet
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 07:30 PM

Definitely talk to COSMO THE CAR the greatest and funniest Music Hall act you could ever book for any venue "proper" is one of there favourites and they can tell you where the writer has been buried since about 1930 something. I think he's dead now, at least I hope so for his sake. great song though.

Graham (Guernsey)

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: alison
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 08:42 PM

Brian Cant used to sing it on Play Away too...... and I'm sure I remember Bernard Cribbins singing it too, (probably on "The good old days").

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 01:23 PM

I'm pretty certain John Foreman didn't write this, but that it goes way back to the start of the century. John, "The Broadsheet King" was in fine form at the National Folk Festival (England) two years back,singing "If it wasn't for the houses in between", and did a great double act of reminiscences with Johnny Handle. I haven't heard anything to suggest he's not still among us, probably singing at his local club at Cecil Sharp House.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Bert
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:11 PM

Allan C. That was George Formby I was talking about. A different bloke. I don't know anything about John Foreman.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Tony Burns
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:32 PM

I have this on tape in my car. I'll try to remember to get the author's name. The same author also wrote "A Noise Annoys an Oyster But a Noisey Noise Annoys an Oyster More".

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Tony Burns
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 06:51 PM

The accreditation given by County Vaudeville says "(R.P.Weston and Bert Lee)copyright 1926 Francis Day and Hunter".

Subject: ADD Verse: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:03 AM

I heard (and recorded) John Foreman singing this in 1972. Once the audience had got the hang of the coffee version of the chorus, he would throw in the following variant

All I want is a proper pint of porter
Poured in a proper pewter porter pot
I may be off my dot,
But I want a pint of porter in a pewter porter pot
Iron porter pots and tin porter pots,
They're no use to me,
If I can't have a proper pint of porter from a proper pewter porter pot
I'll have a cup of tea!"

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:26 AM

How would you get that addition into the database - would it mean adding a completely new version, or is it possible to update an existing one?

Subject: Lyr Add: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 07:33 AM

Just checked the Lyric in the D T and find I have been singing an extra verse since nineteen canteen. Here it is :-

Napoleon saw that he was in the Cart
When he lost that Waterloo fight
He took his sword up to Wellington,the Lord
And he said 'You British do fight'
Now you've won Waterloo, sir
What am I going to have with you, sir
And the old Iron Duke said etc

---

I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Verse Add: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 09:09 AM

Thanks!

~S~

Subject: ADD Version: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:04 PM

Looks like we never did get back to the source of this song. Here's a transcription that incorporates the verse Leadfingers posted, and the other parts sometimes make more sense than what we have in the DT. Can we find the original somewhere? Can we get a good transcription of the tune?
-Joe Offer-

---

A PROPER CUP OF COFFEE
(R.P Weston & Bert Lee)
(as recorded by Trout Fishing In America)

Verse 1
A Sultan sat on his oriental mat, in his harem in downtown Persia,
He took a sip of coffee, just a drip, and he said to his servant Kersia,
"Ah, curse ya, curse ya, curse ya, That's the worst cup of coffee in Persia!"

Chorus
"`Cause...
All I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffee pot,
I may be off my dot, but I want a proper coffee in a proper copper pot.
Iron coffee pots and tin coffee pots, they are no use to me!
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee in a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup of tea!"

Verse 2
In days of old when knights and men were bold, and whiskey was much cheaper,
Burt Turpin rode to a coffee shop and showed his pistols to the keeper,
He said "Stand and deliver! Can't you see that I'm all a'quiver?"
[Repeat Chorus]

Verse 3
When Bonaparte found that he was in the cart and he lost that Waterloo fight,
He gave his sword to Wellington, my Lord, and he said "Those British can't half fight,
Now you've had your Waterloo, sir, tell me what am I having with you, sir?"
[Repeat Chorus]

Verse 4
Now King Solomon and his queen would carry on, so we heard in the ancient scandals,
He bought her lots of silver coffee pots with diamond legs and handles,
And said the Queen of Sheba, "I'd rather have any old tea-bag..."
[Repeat Chorus 3 Times]


Taken from Lyrics Playground

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:31 PM

And it was definatley PRE John Foreman Ernie Mayne sounds about right.
I believe he used to do a lot of patter in between the verses, invluding a reference 'This being a temperence house I am sure I heard some one sing I want a pot of porter etc.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 05:15 PM

R.P Weston & Bert Lee, Copyright 1926 Frances Day and Hunter

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: open mike
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:27 PM

gosh i can just hear this is some musical
perhaps rogers and hammerstein?

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 02:48 AM

Thanks, 'Catters, I appreciate the info! Now I can acknowledge the authors.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:35 AM

I thought they were earlier, but I found that R.P Weston & Bert Lee wrote screenplays for the British film industry in the 1930's - but I think their songwriting peaked earlier. They also wrote With Her Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm (1934) and Heaven Will Protect an Honest Girl (1933) and Knees Up, Mother Brown (1938), so maybe they were more recent than I thought..
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: pavane
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:53 AM

I saw it last year in a Buskers Tunebook (Music hall songs, possibly) where I think it was stated copyright 1903, but I can't remember who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:03 AM

No end to the interesting things I learn here, now including the author of With Her Head Tucked...one of my mother's favorites.

Subject: Lyr Add: PROPER CUP OF COFFEE (from Cosmotheka)
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:11 AM

FWIW, here are the lyrics as sung by Cosmotheka (Dave and the late Al Sealy). These agree with what odd scraps I can rememeber hearing as a youngster, and are rather more Englsh. (Who was Burt Turpin?!)

Steve

===============================================================
The Sultan sat on his oriental mat, in his harem, High Street, Persia,
He took a sip of coffee, just a drip, and he said to his servant Kersia,
"Oh, curse ya, curse ya, curse ya, it's the horrible-est coffee in Persia!"

Chorus
What I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffee pot,
I may be off my dot, but I'll have a cup of coffee in a proper copper pot.
Tin coffee pots, iron coffee pots, they're no use to me!
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee in a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup of tea!"

In days of old when knights and days were bold, and whiskey was much cheaper,
Dick Turpin rode to a coffee house and showed his gun to the coffeee house keeper,
He said "Stand and deliver! Good heavens, I'm all of a quiver!"

Old Bonaparte found that he was in the cart when he lost that Waterloo fight,
He gave his sword to Wellington the Lord, and he said "You British, you can fight!
You've had your Waterloo, sir; now what am I having with you, sir?"

King Solomon with his queen would carry on, so we read in ancient scandals,
He bought her lots of silver coffee pots with diamond spouts and handles,
"But," said the Queen of Sheba, "I'd rather have any old tea-bar!"

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:19 AM

Is that "tea-bar" in the last line, Steve? What's it mean?
Who was Burt Turpin? Hey, I just post what I see...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 05:05 AM

John Foreman is still in good health (or was when I spoke to him a few months ago), lives in Camden and sometimes turns up at "Sharps". Unfortunately he refuses to sing these days. If anyone wants to contact him, PM me for his phone number.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 05:38 AM

Joe, I've no idea what a tea-bar is, I just type whatI hear! Well ... in the first pace, it rhymes ... I'd always assumed it meant a bar where they only serve tea; we had a lot of milk bars (where they only served milk, naturally) over here in the 1950s, so that's a kind of precedent, I suppose.

(Not a few well-known performers started out in milk bars, BTW: Tommy Steele at the Two Is in London, for instance; and didn't the Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group do similarly? This is a case for Roger the Skiffler!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:32 AM

Point of trivial information - John Foreman's son is in the pop group Madness - but I am afraid I don't know which one he is!! Despite seeing them loads of times in the late 70's very early 80's.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:03 AM

Joe

You're right - Weston & Lee were songwriting before the 30s (they did thousands of songs). Goodbye-ee (their first big hit, I think) was from 1917. (They were also responsible for several of the Stanley Holloway monologues).

Mick

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

Very relieved to hear that John Foreman is still with us. I hadn't heard anything untoward about him. He gave us a cracking night at Traditions at the Tiger, Notts., about five years ago, he was excellent company and a fine gentleman. Don Partridge used to feature "The Coffee Pot Song" quite a lot during the sixties.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,Sounds like their referring to an Ibrik
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:50 PM

used for Turkish - Middle Eastern coffee.
Turkish Ibrik

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:46 AM

John Foreman is appearing at the Old Rose And Crown Walthamstow
on 11 December.

A rare featured appearance these days but he was in fine form when he dropped in and did a song before the Summer.

To add to an earlier posting, John's son in Madness is Chris Foreman guitarist.

Extra, but useless, info - John went to my old school, as did a number of other well known folkies, but that was some years before me [even though I'm ancient, before someone else mentions that fact ;-)].

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 10:29 AM

Great to hear that you've persuaded John to perform, Kevin - I must try and get there for it. Not only does he sing some very amusing songs, but he also has some great patter and usually even performs some paper-tearing for "Rule Brittania". I love his description of a crochet hook as an embryonic 'arpoon.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 05:16 AM

There was no "old school tie" involved Dave, It was Ken Lees who did the persuading ;-)

Maybe see you when John's on if not before.

Subject: Lyr Add: PROPER CUP OF COFFEE (Weston/Lee/Hills/M)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM

The version given below is sung by Priscilla Herdman, Anne Hills, & Cindy Mangsen on their album "Voices of Winter," Gadfly Records CD 235, 1997. The tune and chorus are the ones written by Weston & Lee (although they're mistakenly called "traditional" on Herdman's website) but Hills & Mangsen wrote new verses.

This song was played on Minnesota Public Radio's Morning Show on Friday, June 4, 2004. You can listen to the archived program at that site, but the archive will only be available for one month after the air date. The song begins 1 hour, 13 minutes and 30 seconds into the show. (RealPlayer version 10 lets you skip right to it.)

A PROPER CUP OF COFFEE

CHORUS: All I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffeepot.
I may be off my dot, but I want a cup of coffee from a proper coffeepot.
Iron coffeepots and tin coffeepots, oh, they're no use to me.
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee from a proper copper coffeepot, I'll have a cup of tea.

1. While shopping at the mall,
I spied a little stall
By the name of The Happy Little Brewer.
The clerk said she would grind
Any coffee I could find,
So I posed my dilemma to her:
"I don't want your cherry chocolate cappuccino.
There is just one way I wish to sip the beano."
CHORUS

2. I boarded on a jet
Five hours just to sit
And take a trip across the country.
We flew into a storm--
No cause for great alarm--
But suddenly the flight turned bumpy.
The captain said, "Because of turb-u-lence,
I'm sorry, but we just can't serve-you-lunch."
And I said: CHORUS

3. I heard about a sage,
One hundred years of age,
Who lived up on a mountain treacherous.
To find him, you must climb
And cut through leaf and vine
And reach a yoga camp called Stretch-R-Us.
When finally I reached the mountaintop,
All he said was, "Did you bring the coffeepot?" (Om!)
CHORUS TWICE

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM

I'm very glad to note that the idea that John Foreman is a)dead and b) had an estate that was 'tight' about his lyrics, has itself gone to its just reward.
As of a couple of days ago JF was fine. As to 'his' lyrics, I'm not sure that he wrote many songs (I think there may have been one that he performed of his own) but was, of course, a superb performer of music hall songs.
I'm glad he's singing occasionally. Being sung to by JF is very good for you and him.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 06:22 AM

Only just picked up on this thread. Very interesting.

About 20 years ago when I lived in Amsterdam, I got to know somebody through playing squash with him. He invited me to an old time music hall night which he ran and was the lead person.
He sang that song and I still remember it to this day.
I have never been able to get the words right though.
Now I can teach my duaghters how to sing it. They like that sort of song.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHAT I WANT IS A PROPER CUP O' COFFEE
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:51 AM

Transcribed from the sheet music at The National Library of Australia:

WHAT I WANT IS A PROPER CUP O' COFFEE
(R. P. Weston & Bert Lee, 1926)

1. A sultan sat on his oriental mat,
In his harem, High Street, Persia.
He took one sip at his coffee, just a drip,
And he said to his slave, "Oh, curse yer!
Oh, curse yer! Curse yer! Curse yer!
It's the horriblest coffee in Persia!"

CHORUS:
What I want is a proper cup o' coffee,
Made in a proper copper coffee pot.
I may be off my dot,
But I want a cup o' coffee from a proper copper pot.
Tin coffee pots and iron coffee pots,
They're no use to me.
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee
From a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup of tea."

2. King Solomon with a queen would carry on,
So we read in the ancient scandals.
He gave her lots of silver coffee pots
Which had diamond spouts and handles,
But said the Queen of Sheba,
"I would rather have any old tea bar."

3. When Boneypart found that he was in the cart
And he'd lost that Waterloo fight,
He gave his sword up to Wellington, the Lord,
And he said, "You British, you do fight!
Yes, you've won Waterloo, sir.
Now what am I having with you, sir?"

4. In days of old when knights and days were bold,
And whiskey was much cheaper,
Dick Turpin rode to a coffee stall and showed
His gun to the coffee stall keeper.
Said he, "Stand and deliver!
Good heavens! I'm all of a shiver."

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

Thanks, once again, Jim, for posting a definitive lyric from a print source--performers tend to take liberties of one kind or another, and it is very helpful to know exactly what they were taking liberty with.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:27 AM

John Foreman was a professional printer (I believe his presses are still there and working), and as part of his trade produced two brilliant reproduction books, Hindley´s "Curiosities of Street Literature" and Ashton´s "Real Sailor Songs" both now collector´s items in their own right.

As a singer and "music hall" artist he wasw of the very highest order. Part of this song was a piece of patter which went "if you need to, put in a breathe there, and if you can´t manage a breathe, put in a semi-breathe!".

A real gentleman - kind warm-hearted and generous with his time and knowledge. And a brilliant performer.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,Simon Barratt
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:14 AM

I have just acquired a copy of the sheet music for "Proper Cup O'Coffee". I can confirm that it's copyrighted 1926 by FD&H, price 6d. This particular copy is "Sung By Ernie Mayne", who just happens to be my paternal grandfather. The fourth page of the song-sheet contains three verses of patter to be recited after each verse in reprise. Also, the words submitted by Jim Dixon in June 06 are the correct words.