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Just where IS Glocca Morra?

NightWing 21 Jan 12 - 05:14 PM
John MacKenzie 21 Jan 12 - 05:18 PM
NightWing 21 Jan 12 - 05:26 PM
John MacKenzie 21 Jan 12 - 05:35 PM
Joybell 21 Jan 12 - 05:47 PM
Paul Burke 21 Jan 12 - 05:48 PM
Cool Beans 21 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM
NightWing 21 Jan 12 - 06:20 PM
Cool Beans 21 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM
MartinRyan 21 Jan 12 - 07:20 PM
kendall 21 Jan 12 - 07:24 PM
MartinRyan 21 Jan 12 - 07:27 PM
kendall 21 Jan 12 - 07:30 PM
terrier 21 Jan 12 - 07:49 PM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 12 - 08:03 PM
MartinRyan 22 Jan 12 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 12 - 04:18 AM
mayomick 22 Jan 12 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 22 Jan 12 - 05:15 AM
Dave Hanson 22 Jan 12 - 05:18 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 22 Jan 12 - 05:26 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 22 Jan 12 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Ray 22 Jan 12 - 05:45 AM
MartinRyan 22 Jan 12 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 12 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 22 Jan 12 - 05:51 AM
Bert 22 Jan 12 - 08:09 AM
GUEST 22 Jan 12 - 08:20 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 22 Jan 12 - 08:47 AM
Joybell 22 Jan 12 - 07:22 PM
Snuffy 24 Jan 12 - 08:41 AM
MartinRyan 24 Jan 12 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Learaí na Láibe 24 Jan 12 - 04:43 PM
MartinRyan 24 Jan 12 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,leeneia 25 Jan 12 - 10:14 AM
GUEST 27 Jan 12 - 07:16 PM
Dave Hanson 28 Jan 12 - 03:39 AM
Joe Offer 28 Jan 12 - 04:18 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Jan 12 - 06:09 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Jan 12 - 06:11 AM
Stringsinger 28 Jan 12 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,charlotte 04 Apr 12 - 12:14 PM
Stringsinger 04 Apr 12 - 12:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Apr 12 - 05:53 AM
MartinRyan 05 Apr 12 - 06:08 AM
Stringsinger 05 Apr 12 - 10:21 AM
GUEST 05 Apr 12 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,ed cloonan 02 Jun 12 - 01:17 PM
Mr Happy 03 Jun 12 - 09:21 AM
Stringsinger 03 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,Ken Brock 03 Jun 12 - 08:28 PM
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Subject: oddball request for Irish 'Catters
From: NightWing
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 05:14 PM

Some days ago, I stumbled over the old song "How Are Things in Glocca Morra?" by Burton Lane and E.Y. Harburg, for the movie Finian's Rainbow. And I got curious about this place. According to the Wikipedia article on the song,

There is no actual Glocca Morra in Ireland (though there is a Glockamara, pronounced the same way). How Are Things in Glocca Morra?

So I wondered: where is this Glockamara? Google Maps and MapQuest show no such place name and a quick Google search revealed nothing.

But searching Google a little more revealed this news item from an Irish news outlet: <http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0122/rta.html>. It mentions that one of the people killed in a traffic accident was "from Glockamara in North Cork". Another news item on the same accident <http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-24716397.html> says that this person was "from Glockamara near Mitchelstown in Co Cork".

And there I got stuck. I searched Google Maps for such a place name in a circle of about 20 km around Mitchelstown (northeastern Cork) and found nothing. Back to Google and searched further.

Finally, after several DAYS of wading through Google results, I stumbled on this webpage: <http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/489662566.pdf>. This is a PDF document from the Cork County Council, titled "Cork County Special Speed Limit Bye-Laws for Regional & Local Roads", dated December 2010. On page 140, it says

R639 The Moorepark Interchange to Gloccamara
On the R639 from the proposed 60 Kph speed limit on the north eastern side of the north eastern roundabout (Irish National Grid 181,990.10E, 101,295.59N) at Moorepark Interchange to the existing 80 Kph speed limit on the southern side of Gloccamara (Irish National Grid 181,198.60E, 107,612.58N).

R639 Gloccamara to the Ballybeg Interchange
On the R639 from the existing 80 Kph speed limit on the northern side of Gloccamara (Irish National Grid 180,925.29E, 109,381.98N) to the proposed 60 Kph speed limit on the southern side of Ballybeg Interchange (Irish National Grid 181,198.60E, 107,612.58N).

With the aid of a converter also found on the web somewhere, I turned these Irish National Grid locations into Latitude/Longitude:

Gloccamara (Irish National Grid 181,198.60E, 107,612.58N) 52.220452, -8.275731
Gloccamara (Irish National Grid 180,925.29E, 109,381.98N) 52.236326, -8.279933

Google Maps claims that these two spots are about 2 km from each other on the R667 (rather than the R639?) about 3-5 km south of Mitchelstown: the northern point about half a kilometer north of "Gortnahown" (and immediately south of the M8); the southern, near "Caherdrinny" (about 1 km north of "Kilworth Camp"). However, nowhere does it show a place called "Gloccamara" (or anything even very close to it). Nonetheless, there is a small unlabeled village (???) at a T-intersection about half a kilometer north of the southern point. You can find it on Google Maps at 52.222397, -8.278713.

And what I'm wondering: I know there are one or two 'Catters in Ireland. Is there anybody near (even vaguely near) Mitchelstown who could drive this road and find out where this "Gloccamara" is. Find out if the little crossroads group of houses (and, it appears, a store and a gas station) is the (not so?) imaginary Gloccamara.

BB,
NightWing
(in Colorado, USA, which is why he doesn't go himself :-)


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 05:18 PM

It's all pie in the sky my friend. A figment of the writer's imagination


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: NightWing
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 05:26 PM

John, you didn't read the post, did you? It ain't just the composer who wondered about Glocca Morra. The Cork County Council says there's a place called "Gloccamara".

BB,
NightWing


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 05:35 PM

So you found Glackamorra?


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 05:47 PM

Thank you for posting this, NightWing. I did read it all and I'm just as curious. So there are still a few puzzles around. This is what I love about Mudcat.
Surely there's an Irish 'catter willing to take this up?
Watching and waiting.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 05:48 PM

Glock is probably "clogh", a stone; the rest could be O'Meara or something like that. Just a guess. It may well be the name of an area rather than a single point, hence "in" Glockamorra rather than "at" the place.

In nostalgia, it might as wewll be Corkadorkey.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM

I think it's somewhere near Fennario.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: NightWing
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 06:20 PM

Paul,

A bit further in that same Wikipedia article I cited, it says, "James Stephens' immortal work, The Crock of Gold (first published in 1912) refers to 'the leprecauns of Gort na Gloca Mora' ('the field of the big rock' in Gaelic) and there would appear to be little doubt that this formed the basis for the place-name of the song's title."

So your figuring "glock" = "clogh" = "rock" seems right on.

Cool Beans,

Where's "Fennario"? I don't recall that being in the song (but I could be mistooken :-)

BB,
NightWing


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM

Sorry, NW. Didn't mean to cause confusion. It was a joke. Fennario is a mythical place Bob Dylan talks about on his first album, says he's never been able to find it.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:20 PM

On the old main road from Dublin to Cork, just north of the town of Fermoy (in North County Cork) there's an old army encampment (once British Army, now Irish) at a place called Kilworth. Just outside the main entrance is an enormous roadhouse/pub called The Glocca Morra Inn. My guess is that it was once a whorehouse! I'm not sure whether the name is genuinely local or came from the song. I'll check.

BTW, there is also, nearby, (or certainly was when last I travelled that road) the ruin of what looks to have been a much smaller pub/inn, long since fallen in. It may well have been that one was used by officers and the other by other ranks. Just a speculation.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:24 PM

I thought Fennario was in South Africa.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:27 PM

In fact, I think the pub was renamed "The Blue Dragon" some years ago...and then became The Corbett Court Hotel or somesuch. I must be getting old!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:30 PM

Sorry, I was thinking of Pretoria.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: terrier
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 07:49 PM

WIKI "How Are Things in Glocca Morra?" is a popular song about a fictional village in Ireland.

It does say a FICTIONAL village after all. But no harm in asking :)


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 08:03 PM

I believe Jim Carroll lives not far away. He's sent me photos of the area where he lives, and it is indeed idyllic.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 04:08 AM

Joe

Jim lives quite a way from North Cork - he's in Clare, on the west coast.

I can find no trace of Glocc..(various spellings) as a real placename in Ireland. The Cork County Council report referred to by NightWing in the OP refers to the area around Kilworth Camp where the pub stood. It seems likely that it was a casual name for the area due to the (highly visible and well-known) inn - with the pub name deriving from the song. Mitchelstown, incidentally, is further north on the same road.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 04:18 AM

"I think it's somewhere near Fennario. "
It's half way between there and Brigadoon.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:10 AM

near the Cliffs Of Duneen


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:15 AM

When thou from here away dost pass,
Any neet and all,
To Brigadoon thou com'st at last,
And Christ receive thy soul!

Put "Big Stones" into Google translate, select Irish, and out pops "clocha móra". For what that's worth. There are an awful lot of big stones in Ireland, many of them in the small fields of the True Gael. When those aren't bog.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:18 AM

It's now in Room 101 on the next shelf to Brig a feckin doon. FOREVER !!

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:26 AM

Never figured out where "Kilkerry" was either (think they meant Kilkenny). Or Donny Cove, for that matter. A bit of map-scrutinising will probably throw one up, in some obscure inlet or other, but what do you want to bet that they just liked the sound of the name, or else got it mixed up with Donnybrook (which at least has a "brook" in it). Speaking of which:

Anybody ever trace the path of that Little Brook? From Killybegs to Kildare... wow, that's some going for a nameless stream.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:29 AM

If Ireland has no Glocca Morra, somebody'll probably build one (with luxury spa and retail park) just to attract the tourists. Wot, cynical? Meeeeee???


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:45 AM

" "I think it's somewhere near Fennario. "
It's half way between there and Brigadoon.
Jim Carroll "

...... and you'll find Brigadoon (actually Big o'Doon) here


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:46 AM

I was chasing something online recently and ended up reading part of a mid-late 19C. account of life in the logging camps of Canada. At one point, the author described spending a few nights at a small setttlement which appeared to be a staging post before heading into the wilderness. The name of the place? "Roscommon"...

Regards


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:46 AM

"If Ireland has no Glocca Morra, somebody'll probably build one"
You obviously haven't been to Kilarney at the height of the tourist season Bonnie.
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:51 AM

Looking for Irish locations the ordnance Survey of Ireland is probably a better tool than any of Google's. Here

Not that they have a definitive answer to this one (a few 'possibles' though) but their maps and satellite images are astonishingly detailed (where Gooogle's overviews are a mixed bag with some very poor images for some areas).


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:09 AM

...an enormous roadhouse/pub called The Glocca Morra Inn. My guess is that it was once a whorehouse!...

So if glock means rock then that would make sense as a place where you get your rocks off;-)


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:20 AM

I once played Finian McLonergan, the title character. At the very end of the show, as Finian is leaving for Oak Ridge, TN, he says to the assembled folks of Rainbow Valley, "I'll see you all some day in Glocca Morra."

Woody, the romantic lead, turns to Finian's daughter Sharon, the ingenue, and says, "Sharon, where IS Glocca Morra."

She replies (mysteriously, according to the stage direction), "There's no such place, Woody. It's only in father's head."

And before Woody can ask, "Well, why were YOU singing a song about it, then?" it's final chorus, music swells and blackout -- end of the play.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:47 AM

Have to admit, I love that show. Must take the prize in the longest-scene-played-in-a-wedding-dress-ever awards.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Joybell
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:22 PM

Kilarney? Just down the road a bit. Lovely beach. Next to Port Fairy which used to be Belfast.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 08:41 AM

If you use street view on Google maps, coming North on the R667 you will see that The Glocca Maura Inn is a large yellowish building on the left. The only customers appear to be two white vans.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 09:02 AM

Yeah - meant to post a link to a pic:

Click here

I think the neighbouring Blue Dragon Inn became the Corbett Court (hotel?)

Regards


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM

Thanks for the links to the picture. It's nice to know, after all these years, that "Glocka Mora" was not just a set of nonsense syllables.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 04:43 PM

Leeneia, I think 'Glocca Morra' is probably just made-up nonsense syllables. The pub was probably named after the movie. Unless someone comes up with some info that the names predates the movie, but I doubt it.

(Sorry, I pressed a few stupid keys and added two blank posts from Leeneia somehow. Unfortunately can't delete)


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 04:44 PM

Hi GUESTleenia

I'm afraid the pub is called after the song rather than the other way round.

Regards

p.s. As I typed the above, the first words came out as "Oi'm afraid..."!


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 10:14 AM

Gloccamara is close enough. See the first post.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 07:16 PM

leeneia quote "Gloccamara is close enough. See the first post."

Yes, see the first post and subsequent posts. I'm from Co. Cork, I've never heard of a place called Gloccamara, though I often passed a prominent pub of the name on th old main Cork Dublin road.

The smallest unit of land division in Ireland is the townland - there is no Gloccamara in the database. If there was a real place called Gloccamara it would result in thousands of results in Google.

It is common in Ireland to use pubs and filling stations as reference points when giving directions. That's probably the reason for the few references given already.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 03:39 AM

It's some American writers idea of what an Irish place name might be, like Brigadoon was a Scottish one, they don't exist.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 04:18 AM

Somehow, Petula Clark and Fred Astaire didn't fit with my vision of Glocca Morra. Then again, the 1968 movie depiction of it wasn't all that hot, either. It looked suspiciously like a sound stage. Still, I liked the story and the music.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 06:09 AM

I liked Tommy Steele in it - sort of makes up for his not getting the chimney-sweep role in Mary Poppins (for whose Cockney accent the British have still not forgiven us).

Speaking of fictional place names... "Missitucky"...?

Nice to see you here, Guest from Cork - up the Rebel County!!

Bonnie (who been here about 15 seconds by Irish standards)


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 06:11 AM

> for whose Cockney accent the British have still not forgiven us

Wooops, forgot to mention that I was referring to Dick Van Dyke. Must be psychological.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 05:46 PM

Glocca Morra was in the head and imagination of E.Y. (Yip) Harburg, the lyricist
for the song. Burton Lane (nee Levy) collaborated on this beautiful song for
Finian's Rainbow.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,charlotte
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:14 PM

Hi , i am from the Glocca Maurra Area,
The Glocca Maurra Inn is a pub on the old main road between Fermoy to Mitchelstown, The old army camp house was across the road from the pub however this has since been renovated to a new two storey house..as they are two roads at either side of the pub ...one with the address of "Caherdrinny" and one with the address "Curragaghalla"
So if someone asked where we were from we would generally say the Glocca Maurra area!!


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:59 PM

thanks for clarifying that it really exists. Yip Harburg was truly an informed songwriter.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 05:53 AM

Glocca Morra - so good, they named a gun after it.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 06:08 AM

Glocca Morra - so good, they named a gun after it.

Nah - that's Glocca Marbh! ;>)>

Regards


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 10:21 AM

Yip Harburg put that town on the map internationally.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 12:31 PM

Do people in Gloccamorra wonder about how things are here ?


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,ed cloonan
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 01:17 PM

yip tells us--a little beyond our reach but never beyond our dreams


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 09:21 AM

Near Brigadoon I hear?


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM

Glocca Morra is from the mind of Yip Harburg, one of America's greatest lyricists.
It would be interesting to find out where he got the name.


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Subject: RE: Just where IS Glocca Morra?
From: GUEST,Ken Brock
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 08:28 PM

I recall reading in a Harburg bio (maybe The Man Who Put the Rainbow in Oz) that he picked Glocca Morra because is scanned the same as Connamara.


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