An email from an Agent

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 10:39 AM

I heard that story too (from someone who worked in a recording studio IIRC) and find it all too horribly believable.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 10:32 AM

Al wrote:-
"many major artists ask support acts to pay for the privilege of borrowing their audience"

This comment takes me back to the very first time that I heard of such practices - decades ago - and concerns a huge long 50 date tour that Billy Connolly was doing when he first hit the big time. Billy told the tour organiser that he would like a support act and that, with his background, he would like it to be a folk band. It was put to Billy that the support should be the Albion Band, who were just starting and would probably like the exposure. "Good idea" says Billy so the tour organisers get on to the Albion's agent who asks how much and is told £x (I really can't remember the amount) per gig. The agent puts the deal to Ashley Hutchings.
"£x?" says Ashley, "It's not a lot to split between the band.... but we would be working every night to big audiences.... and we have a new album out which we can sell at the gigs.... I wonder if I can the record label to pay the hotel bills and then it might just be worth it."
So the Albion's agent goes back to the tour organiser saying they might just go for it and gets the answer, "Right, £x times 50 gigs - that's £y. Put your cheque in the post and we'll get their name on the posters."

I heard this story from more than one source but have no idea of the truth of it. I remember thinking that it was an urban myth when I first heard it, but as time has gone by, I am not so sure.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 12:25 PM

STM wrote:-
"Some agents are crap and you're better off without them."

Do you mean like the Scottish agent who - at the back end of last year - offered me an eight-piece from Edinburgh (zero local profile in Sussex) for 80% of the door with no guarantee. So when was this tour happening, I wanted to know, and how many other gigs had he arranged. Oh, no, I was told - this would be a one-off and I could choose my date.

I'm afraid that I told him what I thought of him.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 08:22 AM

I was the person who said:


"I know of artists who have taken a list of every folk club/festival organiser/arts centre booker they know of, pulled a day aside, and rang/emailed each of them, detailing their act, their availability and their rates. Within the week, they had a 20 day tour at £500 per gig, up and down the country."

To be fair, the artists I'm talking about are very well known and have been professionals on this scene for over 10 years, with folk awards and stuff between them- so I can see how it could be slightly different and be much more difficult for people who are completely new and have no idea of which venues or bookers would book them (as the above artists did, because obviously they had gigged there countless times before) and the bookers who hadn't booked them before, knew who they were because of their high profile.

However, the point(s) I was trying to illustrate:

1. Your own hard work and effort goes a long way. If you want to be a professional musician, being a good musician isn't good enough; you need to be organised, dedicated and have some sense of business initiative.

2. Having an agent isn't everything. Some agents are crap and you're better off without them. The type of agent who offers you around on a (national?) tour for free, does not sound great to me. Other agents, most agents that I know, are great and do their jobs very well.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 08:16 AM

The £500-per-gig caught my eye in that quote too. I'm a long, long time out of the UK performing scene, but: how realistic is that fee (unless you're a headline name/band)?

> ...the Irish model, where the folk scene is subsidised and experts decide what constitutes folk music

Al, don't confuse "the folk scene" in Ireland with Comhaltas. They're not the same thing at all, at all. The real folk scene here is only "subsidised" with a lot of voluntary hard work and good faith, same as there. And no more dictated-to than the British clubs are. The real dictator controlling us all is (revelation of the year) finances.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 08:03 AM

A good, honest, realistic post, I would say, Tom, speaking as someone on the receiving end of masses of requests for bookings that take all forms (yes, including the devious and even the dishonest) as well as someone who has set up UK wide 20+ date tours.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:44 AM

Sorry, but the naivety of this caught my eye. "I know of artists who have taken a list of every folk club/festival organiser/arts centre booker they know of, pulled a day aside, and rang/emailed each of them, detailing their act, their availability and their rates. Within the week, they had a 20 day tour at £500 per gig, up and down the country."

In the interests of public understanding of what really happens:

1) I have a list like that. There are 1175 entries (including arts centres, village halls etc).

2) In one day you would only get through to about 15 if you were lucky. There rest would be out, busy, wrong number, moved jobs, bounced email etc.

3) Of those, only one or two would book an act they'd not heard of before. The rest would ask for a link, cd or other reference, or just find some way to say no thanks (most would be booked up over a year ahead, with an existing list of waiting acts).

4) Organising a tour takes a very long time. You need to set realistic driving distances between gigs, and many venues only operate on a specific night of the week, or day of the month. There are also time and distance limits between gigs and previous/later tours to consider. It's a very difficult juggling act, finding, holding, and confirming gigs at the right moment at the best price. Setting up a 20 day tour (even when you are pushing at wide open doors) can take weeks of negotiation, calculation, persuasion and downright deviousness. In one day of hard slog you'd achieve very little and go to bed with a headache.

When I was working full time, as our agent I matched every hour I spent with Tom, rehearsing, driving, hanging around away from home and actually playing, with an hour at my desk. I'd ring about 15 people every night I was home, and more in the daytime if I knew people would be in. Then there were the contracts to print, email and sign, photos and press packs to go out, maps to print (this was pre-satnav), safe houses for day-time warmth and maybe a snooze, accommodation if not provided by the venue, and then all the mailing list and other promotional stuff on top of that.

This is why agents are not interested in breaking acts, and I for one don't blame them, Frankly, there is only time in the day to handle one act, and no-one will be as hungry as the act itself. Established big names are a different matter, but even then, there is a huge amount of work to be done for a 20 day tour.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:33 AM

In addition to being self-demeaning, performing for free in a fee-charging venue also sets a BAAAAAAAD precedent.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:31 AM

I think the agent should have said they would do it for a percentage of the net door take. Offering to play for free is self-demeaning.

If the organiser's club does make any money on the gig, then the band gets some. And if not, the band has been warned in advance that they may go home with empty pockets. It's the best alternative (out of a not-very-good choice) that I can see, and at least there's the chance of some earnings, in addition to the exposure & stage experience.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:26 AM

Can you define a folkie, Terry

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM

And , of course , agents are ALL different . I do a LOT of Non Folk venues with the people I mostly work with as we do predominantly a sort of Costume/Theme thing , so we do quite a few Banquets and Garden Parties and weddings .
Despite our standard Info Pamphlet listing ALL the Themes we are geared up for , we find quite often that an agent who has booked us as 'Medieval' will express surprise that we also do Western . or Irish . We are , in fact , all basically Folkies but with an interset in a LOT of other music styles , so are VERY versatile .

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: treewind
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 09:51 AM

Relevent to part of this thread is this: Jacey Bedford: You don't need an agent

The gist of it: the only reason you need an agent is because you have already got so popular you haven't time for the paperwork anymore.
---
There's another side to booking anyone for less than they are really worth, and acts underpricing themselves "to get the gig": it devalues the market for artists who make their living out of it. This advice came to me from Pete Coe, who is a good example of a full time folk musician who can be adversely affected by such practices.

Somebody said:
"I know of artists who have taken a list of every folk club/festival organiser/arts centre booker they know of, pulled a day aside, and rang/emailed each of them, detailing their act, their availability and their rates. Within the week, they had a 20 day tour at £500 per gig, up and down the country."

Yes, if you want that kind of work, that's what you have to do for it, and you need a thick skin because most of them will say no.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM

As a performer, I've made about £200 pounds a year. (If lucky) As a Sound engineer, I've made nothing... Not retiring just yet then. (and I don't have an agent....Couldn't afford one)

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 08:27 AM

I think I prefer the capitalist thing to the Irish model, where the folk scene is subsidised and experts decide what constitutes folk music.

I can see how others would prefer the Irish model.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: doc.tom
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 07:15 AM

Mark Ross has got it right - and I can think of at least one agent who will tell you so! There are so many ways it can be, and is, done.

The support acts we ask to play on concert nights still have to pay to come in - but they are paying to see the guest not paying to play. We used to offer visiting performers who wanted to come on singaround nights (to 'be heard', to fill in nights on a tour or to tout for a booking)£50 towards expenses but we had to stop because of the economics.

We would not book a headline act because they were free (or even because they were cheap). They only get booked on merit - when we discuss fee we asses whether we think they're worth it and don't try to 'beat them down'. If we can afford them we pay them if we can't we decline - although most pros will then ask what we can afford and seek to negotiate.

What really pi****es us off is when acts, or agents, haven't done their homework or take us for fools: we're an acoustic club - "you should book our folk-rock band"; we have a capacity of 60 - "we want £1500 plus hotel accommodation"; "I've enclosed my latest CD so you can hear what I'm like" - yes, but you're a solo act with a guitar and the CD is over-produced, has a backing band of six, and it sounds as though your engineer hasn't learnt how to use pitch-correction software very well.

Most agents ask way above what we had in mind - and so they should, it's their job. But the result is often that their 'acts' don't get booked. Contrary to how the Folk Scene used to like to think it operated, it's always been a pure capitalist structure although the professional artists usually tended to have left leanings on principal - as did most organisers - and therefore not hard capitalist. We're now moving to the situation where hype, advertising, lobbying, etc. are working their wonders on commercial promoters who merely view the folk scene as one more commercial music scene.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:51 PM

PS as for agents hassling club organisers - well that's been the case for as long as I've known. Announce yourself as organising a local gig, and by the next post - you will be inundated with requests to perform by every artist and agent in existence.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:21 PM

well like any art form. It chooses you. Common sense tell you that every graduate in folk music isn't going to be a Martin Carthy - just as every graduate of RADA isn't going to be an OLivier. Every art school graduate isn't going to be Francis Bacon.

However hopefully you will pick up enough skills and understand the arts scene enough to earn a living, an for your degree to be respected. I suppose it depends on how these first graduates conduct themselves.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 04:37 PM

its an April Fool, could it be Joe Stead?its his sort of very funny humour.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 03:30 PM

Should we worry about the Universities that are graduating 30 grads per year per course of traditional music? It sounds a great idea, but are we condemming them to a life like proffesional actors, whith more 'resting' than performing. A flooded market?

Are we also encouraging an ethos of agents hasseling what is mostly a voluntary activity of booking guests for folk clubs?
FloraG

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Mark Ross
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:46 AM

I have figured out after 45 years in this trade that the only way you can get an agent is to first prove that you don't need one!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:37 AM

By the way, Vic, what happened to you police-blue font? Have the Folk Police let you go?

I was arrested by DI Max of the Mudcat Police and bound over to keep the peace (I mean keep the black print).

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:33 AM

I'd be a fool not to notice the tour start date!

CC

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:18 AM

I think the agent is just being realistic. many major artists ask support acts to pay for the privilege of borrowing their audience.

This man is trying to break into a market that is already flooded with 1960's survivors and their offspring. He's trying to break into what is virtually a closed shop. Good luck to him.

Most folk musicians desirous of a working career eventually just give the folk business a bodyswerve, its too much of a closed shop and if you have the talent, there are always other ways to work and buy the instruments that your calling requires.

This man is just embracing the cruel facts. I imagine this sits uncomfortably with the sycophants of the folk aristocracy, who insist everything in the garden is fair - but I think its pretty much how it is, how its been for a while in fact.

Personally i wish his enterprising approach every success.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:12 AM

Whats up with them doing floor spots. If they are good enough they will sell some CDs and get the offer of a paid suport slot for a band that will draw in the crowds. They only job you start at the top is grave digging.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:26 AM

By the way, Vic, what happened to you police-blue font? Have the Folk Police let you go?

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:13 AM

As someone who has been involved with folk clubs for many years and with a input as regards bookings, even arranging them on occasion, I'd think it rather unfair of us to book a main act for a gig and not offer any payment even if they volunteered to perform for nothing.

It would be a different matter if they wished to do a short support or floor spot, however, especially if this was in the hope of obtaining a proper booking somewhere down the line. Or if they had a free night and just wished to pay us a wee "musical" visit. This doesn't seem to be what is being suggested though.

The very least a club ought to do, surely, would be to offer the door takings or a reasonable percentage thereof which is what many actually do already.

However, I believe that a club and/or it booking person should book an arist(s) on merit. They don't necessarily have to be "big names", have a proven track record, or even technical whizz kids as long as they're considered to be a suitable and enjoyable act for the club.

Otherwise, we're selling both the acts and our own audiences short.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:07 AM

Spleen Cringe wrote:-
"Or promoters will pay for a headliner and not even give expenses to the support act - the idea being that the exposure is enough of a reward in itself."

A chap that I am in a band with, in another of his bands was doing a tour as support act for one of the country's top folk/rock bands. Not only did they not get paid, they had to pay the main act's sound crew for the time that they spent sound checking.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: maeve
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:03 AM

Matt, you are indeed a member as matt milton (I looked it up). It's a cookie problem. Just log in again under Quick Links up top.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:50 AM

I am a member here, I think. Maybe it's mattmilton with no space. Either way, those pesky cookies are always being reset, so I just type my name in as a guest most of the time.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:43 AM

Actually, reading your description, I'll scrub that last question, Vic!

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:41 AM

It's probably some sort of reflection of the times.

... try getting an agent these days too! One I talked to recently about one of the acts on my label has more enquiries from artists than they know what to do with, many of which are from people who are apparently pretty good at what they do. You'd have thought the few who do get taken on would get a better service than this. I always thought playing free gigs was something you did early on to get out there playing live, to start to build a reputation and to attract agents, labels and so on - not something your agent sorted out for you once you'd got one.

Having said that, there's not so many folk clubs around any more (and a fair few of them book the same few musicians time and time again because they know that's what they and their existing audience want) and as Will says, that kind of thing is quite standard (for new acts at least) on the indie and pub rock scenes. Or promoters will pay for a headliner and not even give expenses to the support act - the idea being that the exposure is enough of a reward in itself. Which might be the case.

Are they someone you'd consider booking as a paid act, Vic? If so I guess that if you do book them, you could pay them something even if they're not asking for anything...

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:36 AM

Matt asked:-

"Are the band any good, Vic? Do they deserve better?"

Do you know, I was so horrified by the email that I didn't actually check them out at the time.

I have now - the link on the email to the agent's website gives just one clue; an embedded Youtube video of the band singing an inferior, but not unpleasant MOR cover of a big hit by The Proclaimers. The obviously home-made video is quite nifty and amusing but also quite derivative.

You are not a member here (probably wise) so I will send you the link over on a fRoots PM.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM

the agent is presumably receiving a payment for their gig-booking services!

An interesting question. Most of the agents I've dealt with get their fee from a percentage of the gig money - usually 20% and 25-30% for really big paydays. If they didn't get us gigs, they didn't get paid, and we certainly didn't sign any contracts offering cash for services. The only contracts we ever signed were individual ones - one gig at a time - 5 gigs, 5 contracts, 5 percentage rake-offs.

Either the agent in the case quoted is desperate to get the band some recognition with a view to future cash coming in at a later date, or they're paying him for the promotion. I hope for their sake it's not the latter.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM

I think Matt said it better in those few words than I did in my few paragraphs!

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:12 AM

I'm wondering about the agent though.

This might be unfair of me, but I don't think he or she is really doing their job properly. Agents (and managers) are supposed to have sharp teeth! You want an agent to be a bit of a wolf, to be a bit of a cynic, to be money-hungry.

I mean, the agent is presumably receiving a payment for their gig-booking services!

I think the whole missive is far too apologetic all round.

"As part of the single promotion we would like to put a 10 day tour together for the band between April 1st -15th."


Should be: "the band are going on a 10-day UK tour to back up the single, with headline dates already confirmed in London, Manchester & Brighton etc etc"

I wouldn't even mention money. Discuss it later.

Are the band any good, Vic? Do they deserve better?

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:06 AM

This sort of thing has been quite common in the pop/rock band world for quite some time - particularly in places like Brighton. Bands often offer to play for free just to get some exposure in a trendy venue. I also recall the same phenomenon, to a certain extent, in the London folk clubs in the 60s.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 09:00 AM

yes I agree, Vic, furthermore[imo] it is not good for the scene,acts should be booked on their musical merits, they should not be booked because they will play the club for nothing.

Subject: RE: An email from an Agent
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 08:51 AM

I'm instantly wondering who this agent is because it seems completely ridiculous both for the agency and the band! Surely if the artist has not got enough interest, the point of representing them is diminished?

It is tough out there right now, of course, but I still don't think some artists work hard enough; especially the newer and smaller ones. Usually, they are great musicians with a lot to give but have not worked hard enough of the business side of things. I've said before how working as a professional musician, in any genre I would assume, also has to put a lot of work and sense into their own promotion, handling of finances, risks they take and admin.

I know of artists who are great musicians, but rely too much on their agents to get them gigs and promote stuff on their behalf. I don't deny that of course this is the agents role, but it helps if you're also involved.

On the other hand I know of artists who have taken a list of every folk club/festival organiser/arts centre booker they know of, pulled a day aside, and rang/emailed each of them, detailing their act, their availability and their rates. Within the week, they had a 20 day tour at £500 per gig, up and down the country.

So yeah, my advice would be to put a lot of work into both sides of your act: music and admin.

Subject: An email from an Agent
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 08:21 AM

I have just received an email from an folk music booking agent, part of which says:-

One of the bands we represent at *** ******. They will be releasing a new single in April and we already have Radio 2 support for the single confirmed from Janice Long and Dermot O'Leary shows.
As part of the single promotion we would like to put a 10 day tour together for the band between April 1st -15th. The band are not looking for payment although it would be appreciated if one could be offered.

I know that these are difficult times for new artists trying to make a mark and that getting gigs is tough, but surely this cannot be right?

I was discussing this sort of matter in an email exchange with a top agent last week and she said:-

..... the youngsters coming up are having a hard time.
There are a lot of artists chasing those few gigs, so of course clubs can afford to pick and choose, and why shouldn't they? I'm noticing that the quality of the music matters less and less, as long as the name is known. By that I don't mean to imply that poor artists get gigs purely because they have a record company and a publicist behind them, but I do mean that good artists who don't have a publicity budget and a high profile are often sidelined...... There are some groups that would do anything to get their feet inside the door....

As a club organiser, I don't feel that I could live with myself if I were to advertise and promote a gig and then keep all the door takings for the club fund. What do others think?