BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 03:39 AM

I thought it about time the forum responded to this atrocity.
I condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon.
Mudcat is like UN General Council and agencies.
Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 04:42 AM

Curiously, Keith, I am worried that the outcome of the overthrow of Assad could easily be a fundamentalist theocracy - and also I am worried that that is the way the wind is blowing in Egypt too despite the assurances at the last election there about the moderacy of the Islamic Brotherhood.

I don't have a problem with Islam as such - I do have a problem with theocracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Barb'ry
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:36 AM

What is happening in Homs at the moment is, indeed, an atrocity. It does not, however, make the atrocities carried out by Israel any less awful and worthy of condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 06:17 AM

Richard, Akeneaton has been making the point for some time that the Arab Spring may result in more Islamic regimes.
We can still deplore the deliberate targeting of family homes with heavy weapons.
Or, some of us can.

Barb'ry, this atrocity does not diminish any other.
Israel denies and defends against all accusations of atrocities by the state.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:58 AM

Yes, that worries me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:46 AM

Israel is a theocracy. So is Iran and Saudi Arabia. Technically so are England and Japan, where the heads of state are THEORETICALLY also the heads of the church. So is Vatican City, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:17 AM

To Rapparee. To analyse something is to identify the differences more than what very different situations seem to share. England, Japan, Israel, Vatica City, Iran all in the same bunch, all theocracies? What is the use of this thought?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 12:31 PM

I would have thought that a theocracy was a jurisdiction in which the church had power to decide civil matters - where the rule of man is subject to the "rules of God". I therefore don't think that England is   a theocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:41 AM

Nor Israel.

"outrageous bloodshed".
Obama condemns while Mudcat Left just pontificates about religion and politics, or ignores the massacres altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:48 AM

However, Keith, there certainly are sets in Israel who think that it should be a theocracy, and indeed until they are (my feeling is unenthusiastically and belatedly) stopped conduct themselves and oppress others as if it were. That is much rarer in England.

The Assad regime, while controlled by a small tribal group of a sect within a sect, is ostensibly and to some extent actually a secular regime which does not dictate or prohibit which foolish imaginary friend people follow (or what clothes they wear).

Conversely, those in uprising against his oppressive dictatorship may if successful replace it with something even worse.

The question of what to do and how to do it is difficult. In Iraq there was a UN resolution that maybe could be interpreted so as to justify an international invasion force (a bit like the dishonest expedient in Libya) - and while the Iraqi army was large and feared its technology was obsolete (as was Libya's). The Syrians are equipped with a large military (some 300,000 I believe - more than the UK if reservists are not counted) equipped by Russia with modern technology if not as fearsome as some of the US's stuff. That makes them a harder target for invasion in support of a revolution than Libya.

Obviously one would like to see free and democratic elections - but that is not going to happen with Islamism on the march (compare Egypt, think of the gynaephobic poster slogans during the election there).

Has anyone any useful plans?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:52 AM

Elect govts here which are prepared to tell the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 07:44 AM

That'd be a world first!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 11:08 AM

On BBC's Question Time last night, UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie claimed it would be unwise for the West to intervene in the Syrian situation - Alastair Campbell waffled and said nothing coherent. All claimed that Assad was preferable to any alternative Government - nnone of these could remotely be described as "Mudcat left" pontificating or othrewise.
It would seem that while the left is demanding intervention, the right are supporting the Assad regime with their inaction.
Ironically, comedian Steve Coogan was the only one on the panel calling for some sort of action.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: bobad
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 11:33 AM

It's difficult for people of conscience to accept the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people and the unwillingness to stop it because of the potential for another opressive regime taking power.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:30 PM

"It's difficult for people of conscience to accept the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people..."
Some people don't seem to have any problems with it unfortunately - "these things happen" I think was the term used in relation to the slaughter of Palestinian civilians not too long ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:28 PM

I didn't think Campbell was incoherent. Most of the programme Ann Leslie sounded as if she had been overly handy with the free gin in the green room, but on this point only she mentioned the fears of those with religions other than the Sunni insurgents of being subjected to repression on religious grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:50 PM

"The Syrians are equipped with a large military (some 300,000 I believe - more than the UK if reservists are not counted) equipped by Russia with modern technology if not as fearsome as some of the US's stuff. That makes them a harder target for invasion in support of a revolution than Libya. - Richard Bridge

"God is not on the side of the big battalions, God is on the side with the best shots" - so said Voltaire.

Syria armed and equipped by Russia indeed, that must be fairly novel for the region according to all those who swear blind all the arms in the region were handed out by Rumsfeld on his way to meet Saddam.

If the 300,000 Syrian Army (well at least those who have not already deserted) are armed by the best Russia can provide then they have nothing at all in their locker that matches the weaponry of the USA.

Who governs Libya is a matter for the Libyans, who governs Syria is a matter for the Syrians. Sad fact is that when a Government deliberately wages war on its own population the UN by its charter is compelled to act. Russia and China should have that fact explained to them and then be told - "Get with the programme abide by the charter or find yourselves expelled".

Sounds like the "typical" BBC Question Time panel it had only one person with any grasp of what is the right thing to do. The panel members? two politicians, the spin doctor who pushed for action in Iraq, a journalist and a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM

You all make me laugh. Do you really think "Islamism" can co-exist with Western "culture"....or what we claim to be democracy?

Personally, I dont give a flying fuck what happens to this bankrupt, corrupt and immoral society of ours, but at least I can see its nemisis when it stares me in the face.

You "liberals" live in fairyland, you want the best of all worlds and its not naivety....its the fact that you have swallowed all the political shit you have been fed for decades.
Does your ideology not permit freedom of thought? as well as proscribing freedom of speech and common sense.

I suppose I shouldn't laugh, but the idiocy of the support for the rebels in Libya, when we were being told daily that the Islamists were waiting to take over .....same in Egypt.

Reports of imprisonment and torture in Libya are starting to surface
Armed militia everywhere......a lawless shambles, all facilitated by Western involvement for a worthless ideology and greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:58 PM

"but the idiocy of the support for the rebels in Libya"
Islamophobic rant aside - it should be remembered that the Lybyan rebels were being slaughtered by British weapons that were still being supplied long after the revolt started - mustn't forget; the customer is always right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:17 PM

The Syrian government, like the Libyan before it, may be acting repressively, but it is not waging war (as neither was Libya) on civilians. Both were waging war on revolutionaries. A bit like the "war on terror" really, but less abstract. Both less clearly illegal than UK police murders of protesters (and even passers by mistaken for protesters).

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:31 PM

Note, I feel it is important for folks to see what is being presented on the internet to defend the Syrian actions. Because I am posting this, does not mean I share or endorse the perspective.


US, Israeli, Saudi involvement in Syrian uprising

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

Confused yet? I am when I read this and the last one I posted. There is alot of strange theories out there

Religion -- the Overlooked Motive Behind Syria's Uprising

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:56 PM

An interesting perspective:

Population boom fuels the revolt .

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:09 PM

Lybyan rebels were being slaughtered by British weapons that were still being supplied long after the revolt started

What weapons were those then?
The ones that did the slaughtering in the cities and towns of Libya, as now in Syria, were the tanks, artillery and mortars, all supplied by Russia.
So why do you only criticise Britain?
Prejudice.
And why so little condemnation of Syria?
If it were possible to blame Israel we would be seeing your usual huge posts loaded with outrage.
More prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:29 PM

I take it that was not addressed to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 06:16 PM

"Islamophobic rant" :0).....more newspeak from "liberal Jim"

Is he the universal stereotype?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:53 AM

"Is he the universal stereotype? "
No - but you appear to have appointed yourself as spokesman for BNP policy on Muslims.
Islamic extremism is an example of what happens when religion per se, and not any particular brand, has an influence in national and international politics.
"What weapons were those then?"
These:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1360079/How-Britain-sell-arms-Gaddafi-Libya-bleat-democracy.html
or maybe these:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/8754379/UK-promoted-sale-of-sniper-rifles-to-Gaddafi-just-weeks-before-uprising-began.html
or even these.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-under-fire-for-selling-arms-to-bahrain-2218423.html
On the other hand - they were all at it, so maybe Britain can be excused:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/04/07/libyan-opposition-israel-supplying-weapons-to-gadhafi-regime-via-fatah-strongman-mohamed-dahlan/
At the time of the uprising the BBC Panorama team filmed warehouses full of British weapons being used against the rebels, and still being supplied.
Or maybe it was all a 'leftie' dream!!
Perhaps you'd like to comment on the stance on Syria taken by the 'Question Time' government members and supporters - or not, as the case may be!
Jim Carroll

And the beat goes on........
The Guardian
11.02.12 Updated 08.47
World news
UK firm defends Libya military sales
NMS International sold armoured vehicles – which have allegedly been used to quell demonstrations – to Libyan regime
Footage appears to show vehicles sold by NMS International on the streets of Libya in recent days Photograph: YouTube
Rob Evans
The Guardian, Mon 21 Feb 2011 21.24 GMT
One of the British firms heavily involved in selling military equipment to Libya has defended its business practices. NMS International has sold armoured vehicles to the Libyan regime which have allegedly been used to quell demonstrations.
The firm, based in Market Harborough, Leicestershire, has also been training the Libyan police on how to control riots. It has organised delegations of British companies to visit Libya to sell a wide range of military equipment at two arms fairs.
Footage appears to show the armoured vehicles on the streets of Libya in recent days.
Yesterday Louis Oliver, one of the NMS directors, said the vehicles were not "designed in any way to be used in a hostile fashion" as they were built to transport 42 police officers "in a protected environment, like big armoured buses".
The firm has sold 10 of the vehicles, built in the UK, to the Libyans in the last four years.
NMS, whose directors claim to have sold more than £1bn worth of exports in the last decade, was also hired to train Libyan police officers to use so-called "non-lethal weapons" to contain demonstrators. He added that the weapons included guns which fire teargas.
Oliver said: "I don't have a problem with that. What we have taught them is the British policing system and using an escalated response and not carrying any lethal weapons." He added this involved the police giving rioters "lots and lots of warnings" before they used more forceful weapons.
NMS took up to 50 British companies to arms fairs in Libya in 2008 and last November. The last exhibition reportedly showcased military wares such as artillery systems, anti-tank weapons, and infantry weapons.
According to NMS, Richard Northern, Britain's ambassador to Libya, and Whitehall's arms sales unit attended the fair.
Oliver said that all their Libyan sales were approved by the British government. "We have worked very closely with our government all the way through."
Oliver Sprague, an Amnesty International campaigner, said : "These licences should never have been granted in the first place given the reams of credible information supplied to the UK government by Amnesty and others relating to the Libyan government's extreme intolerance of all forms of dissent.
"As we've already seen with Bahrain, it looks as if the government's risk-assessment system isn't working. We need much tighter checks when arms and security equipment are being despatched in cases like this."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 04:08 AM

It appears to have become "prejudice" to condemn one country (in this case my own) for crimes against humanity (that is what selling weapons to be used agains civilians is) because other countries are doing the same.
We have no say in what other countries do, but if we sit on our hands and say nothing when our government behaves as it does, we become accomplices in those crimes.
It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 04:50 AM

So, the British supplied weapons were " vehicles (that)were not "designed in any way to be used in a hostile fashion" as they were built to transport 42 police officers "in a protected environment, like big armoured buses" .
Also teargas and water cannon.

Not very useful for massacring civilians!
The Russian tanks and artillery were very good at that, but you only attack Britain.
Nothing bad to say about Russia or China.
Prejudice Jim.

Every one of the Question Time panel condemned the daily massacres in Homs.
Russian artillery fired into residential streets and homes.
Not in support of any ground offensive against insurgents.
Just attrition and terror.
But, you have nothing to say because there is no way to blame Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:01 AM

Ah, I see the Manicheans are out, demonising others who may have different opinions. Such foolishness!

I too condemn the slaughter in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:43 AM

"Every one of the Question Time panel condemned the daily massacres in Homs."
And every one paid lip service to the atrocities apart from Steve Coogan pontificated and attempted to explain why no action against Syria was possible - including the Defence Secretary - you blamed the left for taking this line.
"Obama condemns while Mudcat Left just pontificates about religion and politics,"
"Not very useful for massacring civilians!"
And it's ok to sell weapons to despots as long as they claim them to be harmless is it.
The BBC film showed warehouses full of shells sold by Britain.
Once again you are defending crimes against humanity by demoting them to being harmless.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:57 AM

Still you only find fault with Britain, ignoring worse criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:07 AM

What BBC film?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:25 AM

Are you now denying that Britsin was selling heavy weaponry to Gadaffi?
Jim Carroll

Published: 06 April, 2011, 08:28 Edited: 07 April, 2011, 03:39

Britain is facing accusations from the International Criminal Court over the weapons it's sold to Gaddafi while the UK is considering arming more Libyans – rebels this time.
¬The rebels say they lack the ammunition needed to fight off the forces of Colonel Gaddafi.
In the meantime, it is believed Gaddafi was planning to use force to crackdown on protesters long before the uprising began, and the UK was its main arms provider.
That explains why the Libyan security forces have been putting down unrest in the country with plenty of rubber bullets, tear gas and other ammunition to a considerable degree British made.
The UK was still selling arms to Libya just four months before Colonel Gaddafi turned them on his own people, with government ministers approving a deal for sniper rifles, bullets and tear gas.
"There is a very strict set of guidelines that say where it is likely that human rights violations might take place, you are not supposed to sell the weapons. I would say, looking back through a number of credible sources, including an Amnesty International, that it was always very likely that equipment supplied to Colonel Gaddafi would and could be used in the brutal crackdown on protestors," says Oliver Sprague from the non-governmental organization, Amnesty International.
Arms exports is a big business in the UK, valued at nearly $US 12 billion in 2009.
Now, a highly critical report by MPs exposes the scale of UK arms sales to some of the world's most brutal regimes.
The Libyan export licenses were some of the most valuable – according to the report, the UK sold nearly $350 million worth of arms there in the year leading up to September 2010.
In the same year Egypt bought $27 million worth of small guns and electronic warfare equipment from the UK, and Bahrain ordered more than $10 million of guns and crowd control agents.
Dozens of arms export licenses to the region have now been hastily revoked. But still, days into the unrest in Cairo, UK Prime Minister David Cameron led a junket to the Middle East to flaunt the wares of British arms dealers.
"I can't imagine who that was in the Prime Minister's office, who said to them: look you have been arming these dictators to the teeth for the decades. They have spent a certain amount of the weaponry you gave them shooting their own population. Now is a really good time to go and try to sell them some more,"mocks John Rees from Stop The War Coaliton.
"I can't imagine what damage it has done when people see British made weaponry in the hands of the people who are invading Bahrain and putting down its protesters at the moment,"
John Rees says.
The report's authors say the government "misjudged the risk" of selling arms to countries like Egypt and Bahrain – but many would go much further.
"One of the things that you've seen as a characteristic of British aid around the world over the last ten years has been the provision of this highly militarized security sector… so it's exactly the opposite of trying to stimulate democracy – we are providing the means by which those countries' regimes can clamp down on democracy," says John Hilary, Executive Director of War on Want.
Since the violence began, more than a thousand people have been killed in Libya, as well 26 killed and a thousand injured in Bahrain. Circumstantial evidence gathered by the report's authors suggests much of that damage was done with British weapons.
When the unrest started in the Middle East, the government scrambled to suspend arms export licenses. But this report is evidence that it closed the stable door long after the horse had bolted, when British weapons were probably already being used against civilians in Bahrain and Libya. The government still hasn't ruled out arming the rebels in Libya – it remains to be seen whether these damning revelations will make them think twice.
The British foreign secretary has said that the UN resolution on Libya made it legal "to give people aid in order to defend themselves."
And the pressure on Western governments to arm the rebels is growing. With Colonel Gaddafi digging in his heels, a string of high-profile figures have been speaking out in favor of the move:
Bill Clinton, for instance, said he "would be inclined to do it."
So far, the UK has officially offered telecommunications equipment to the rebels. But many suspect help of a different kind may be on the way too.
The UN resolution specifies no ground troops in Libya. However there are reports of secret training bases for rebels.
Journalist Barry Lando, the author of an article on the subject, believes that there is enough evidence to make this claim.
"[There was] one rebel, who claimed that he had been trained by US special forces and Egyptian special forces at a training camp in the eastern part of the country. All that sounds reasonable because what the rebels need is not so much arms, they can use arms, but without training they will not be able to do anything," he said "I think that the US, the British and the French, had all concluded that as well, and there is no way they can avoid giving them training."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 07:07 AM

"Still you only find fault with Britain, ignoring worse criminals."
"It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 09:21 AM

But why do you ONLY criticise Britain?
Not Russia.
Not China.
Not Syria.
Britain is hardly in the same league.
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:25 AM

I opened this for people to comment on the horror of the ongoing and daily massacres in Hom.
A few of us have condemned those responsible for the indiscriminate killing of ordinary people and children.

I find it extraordinary Jim, that you have ignored all that and used it as just another platform to attack Britain and Israel who happen to be totally blameless in this.
It reveals much about you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:52 AM

I CONDEMN ANY COUNTRY THAT SELLS ARMS TO DESPOTS
I have already said several times now that there is no difference between any of them -they are all dealers in death, why are you defending Britain's record of selling weapons to despotic regimes?
As a Briton I can only take responsbility for what is done by the British government - I criticise all others from afar.
I unreservedly condemn all nations that trade in arms with despotic countries which have poor human rights records - the top five being US, China, Britain France and Russia, in that order - will you join me in that condemnation?   
For the record - these are the league tables for world arms sales

US $698bn (42% of the world share)
China $119bn (7.3%)
UK, $59bn (3.7%)
France $59.3bn (3.6%)
Russia 58.7bn (3.6%)

"Britain is hardly in the same league."
In fact Britain comes below China but above Russia, and the US is the top dealer in weapons by far - 42% of the world share.
"come up with is some sniper rifles."
Oh, that's all right then - I suggest you open up the links I gave you; I misjudged them - I thought they killed people - and the armoured vehicles, the electronic equipment, and the Lybian police that were trained in Britain......
I suggest you save me the trouble of reproducing the articles on Britain's record on dealing with despotic regimes and open up the links I gave you - meanwhile here's one I prepared earlier.
Jim Carroll

"UK SELLS ARMS TO REPRESSIVE REGIMES- OFFICIAL
MPs question British arms supplies to Middle East and North Africa
Minister admits trade with undemocratic countries with poor human rights record
Saudi Arabian troops arrive in Bahrain to prop up the monarchy against widening demonstrations. Photograph: Ammar Rasool/APAimages/Rex Features
How can Britain, one of the world's leading arms exporters, honour its stated commitment to promote human rights throughout the world?
With difficulty.
Vince Cable, the business secretary, has admitted as much. "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
Cable's refreshing admission of what we all know anyway did not satisfy members of the Commons committee on arms export controls on Tuesday night, not least the chairman, the former Conservative defence minister, Sir John Stanley. He accused the government of adopting a "rosy tinted" and "over optimistic" view of "authoritarian regimes".
The MPs were questioning Cable and William Hague, the foreign secretary, about Whitehall's approval of exports, including crowd control ammunition, guns and ammunition to Libya, Bahrain, and Egypt, in the period leading up to the Arab Spring last year. The MPs also raised questions about reports that Saudi Arabia sent troops in British trucks to Bahrain during the protests in the Gulf state last year.
In a stinging report a year ago, the parliamentary committee noted that successive governments had allowed British arms supplied to north Africa and the Middle East to be used for internal repression in apparent breach of official guidelines.
The MPs welcomed the revocations of 158 arms export licences to governments brutally cracking down on civil protests but added that this merely reflected the "degree of policy misjudgment" that had occurred.
Under official UK guidelines, no arms exports would be allowed that would exacerbate regional conflict or be used for internal oppression. "We don't have perfect foresight", Cable told the MPs.
Hague went further. "In the case of Libya noone predicted what was going to happen", he said as though Gaddafi had only turned into a dictator last year after Libyans in Benghazi began to rise up.
As to Iraq, Hague added, that country had a right to self-defence. Moreover, it had a booming oil industry. "It was very important that BP and Shell are involved in a country like that", said the foreign secretary.
As far as Saudi Arabia was concerned, he said the government had raised concerns about its treatment of women and foreign workers. But 99 percent of Britain's exports to the Kingdom consisted of Typhoon jets. "They are not relevant to our concerns about these rights", said Hague.
And Saudi forces were sent into Bahrain last year "to guard installations but not to take part in dealing with unrest in Bahrain so they did not fall foul [of the export guidelines]".
Cable told MPs that the government had reviewed its system of monitoring arms exports and that in future ministers would be able to "suspend" arms exports quickly in the event of political upheaval or a regional crisis.
Britain is among the world's top five arms suppliers, selling more than £2bn in 2009, according to the latest figures from the International Institute for Strategic Studies. The most lucrative markets, notably in the Middle East, but also the Indian subcontinent, are those where the citizens are not in a position to object or where arms sales further destabilise an already unstable region.
As Hague demonstrated, there are always ways of getting round mutually contradictory policy objectives - in this case, promoting both arms sales and human rights."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:09 PM

You have chosen not to live in Britain and curse it with nearly every breath, so we can assume that you retain your citizenship as a cynical convenience.
I do not believe it is the reason you single out Britain for attack here.

For one sniper rifle you could buy 50 or more Kalashnikovs.
With their high rate of fire they are far superior when you just want to kill large numbers of people indiscriminately.
Russia supplies them by the ton.

Unarmed armoured buses, tear gas and water cannon are no good for massacres either.

Still you attack Britain while IGNORING the pitiful subject of this thread!

In just your second post you ascribed a statement to me, in quotes, that I never said and does not represent my opinion.
Straight in with a personal attack backed up with a lie.
You are the enemy of honest, friendly debate.

Now, do you have any comments on the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:14 PM

I'll take that a no then that you won't join me in condemning the countries who sell weapons to despotic regimes - now why am I not surprised.
"You are the enemy of honest, friendly debate"
And you are the mealy-mouthed apologist hypocrite who supports terrorist states and their armourers.
"Now, do you have any comments on the subject of this thread?"
I've made them, but one more time - "It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 02:10 PM

I do condemn selling weapons to despotic regimes.
Britain's armaments industry has a better record than almost any other.
Can you give any example of a national armaments industry with a better record Jim.
Now PLEASE stop trying to change the subject of this thread.
You still have not expressed an opinion.

From the OP
I condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon.
Will you join me in that?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 02:42 PM

Strange that Russia seems to have made an act of compassion for Canadian harp seals (they announced an import ban in December), but not a similar one for the Syrian population.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:01 PM

"condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon."
I utterly condemn the actions of the Syrian government in its repressive and murderous attempts to supress opposition - and have already said so.
I also condemn all nations who supply weapons to despotic powers - China, Russia, the US, Britain, France.... whovever. I do not make any distinction between "heavy weapons" more likely to be used in military conflict and the armoured vehicles, tear gas, sniper rifles - and the training of Gadaffi's thugs in crowd control by the British army. Would you be prepared to put your name to that one or are you happy if the weapons sold are only those most likely to be use against demonstrating civilians.
Are you really claiming that it was acceptable to sell weapons to Gadaffi - a simple yes or no will do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:12 PM

One more for your approval
Jim Carroll

Britain Sold Weapons to Libya and Other Dictatorships in North Africa and the Middle East
Posted by Shear on Tuesday, April 05, 2011
Shear English - Britain sold weapons to Libya and other dictatorships in North Africa and the Middle East just four months before Colonel Gaddafi's regime slaughtered hundreds of protesters, a damning report reveals today. Ministers approved the export of sniper rifles, bullets, tear gas and other 'crowd control' ammunition to Tripoli shortly before the murderous dictator ordered his military to crush a pro-democracy uprising.
The highly critical report by MPs laid bare the 'dirty secret' of Britain selling arms to some of the world's most brutal regimes. Successive British governments have 'misjudged the risk', the Commons' Committee on Arms Export Controls said. The report follows mounting fears Gaddafi used UK-made arms against the rebel uprising in Libya. More than 1,000 Libyan citizens have been killed since his violent crackdown was launched. Official figures show that since 2009, Britain approved export licences worth £2.3billion to 16 states over a 21-month period.
Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures. The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners. Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia. MPs on the cross-party committee admitted the Coalition government had been 'vigorously backpedalling' to revoke 156 arms export licences to the region since the 'Arab Spring' of uprisings began. But they raised concerns about sales of arms in the first place by Gordon Brown and David Cameron to authoritarian regimes, in deals which are at odds with Britain's stance on upholding human rights.
The report concluded: 'Both the present Government and its predecessor misjudged the risk that arms approved for export to certain countries in North Africa and the Middle East might be used for internal repression. 'We recommend the Government sets out how it intends to reconcile the potential conflict of interest between increased emphasis on promoting arms exports with the staunch upholding of human rights.'
Sir John Stanley, the committee's Tory chairman, said the hasty withdrawal of so many export licences after several regimes brutally turned their guns on protesters 'reflected the degree of policy misjudgement that has occurred'. Ministers have ordered a sweeping review into the issuing of arms export licences.
Kaye Stearman, of Campaign Against Arms Trade, said: 'This is a damning report that shines light on the dirty secret of Britain's arms exports to authoritarian, undemocratic and abusive regimes. This should be a wake-up call to the Government.' Oliver Sprague, Amnesty International's UK arms programme director, said: 'Plainly decisions made in the past on arms sales to the Middle East and North Africa have been wrong.' Labour ministers were said to have approved the sale of the crowd control weapons to Gaddafi while negotiations were under way over the fate of the Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Al Megrahi.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM

Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:21 PM

SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA,
That would be for the sniper rifles Jim.
Britain does not make Kalashnikov rounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 10:50 AM

"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
Yes keith - for use on civilians, along with the armoured cars and tear gas.
I ask again - are you really suggesting claiming it is acceptable to supply monsters like Gadaffi and Assad with arms - large or small?
No answer suggests that you do - which is probably the case.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 11:06 AM

There are legitimate as well as illegitimate uses for the things supplied - a bit like the internet really.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 12:24 PM

To murder civilians, their vast arsenal of Kalshnikovs each do a better job than a sniper rifle.
Sniper rifles are worth more than 50 Kalishnikovs and each round has to be loaded separately by hand.
Armour plated buses, tear gas and water are even less effective.

Britain has no blame for what is going on in Homs, but you only want to talk about Britain.
I will argue the politics of arms sales with you, but not on this thread.
If you only want to talk about Britain not Homs on this thread, you are talking to yourself now, you hate filled obsessive.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 02:49 PM

The fact that Britain should sell ANY WEAPONS whatever to Gadaffi and Assad is a crime against humanity - they were/are both repressive thugs and were known to be such.
In 2001 MI6 planned to assassinate Gadaffi http://cryptome.org/shayler-gaddafi.htm - yet right up to the uprising in Libya the British Government were issuing licenses to sell him arms - guns, armoured cars, tear gas that could be used to 'keep order' - and providing trainining in riot control - this is ******* insanity.
Russia and China are supporting Assad and selling him arms - the whole pivot of this discussion is the wisdom of selling weapons to repressive regimes - it is exactly as I described elsewhere - you are screaming 'thread drift' because it has moved out of your comfort zone - as is a constant tactic of yours.
Perhaps you'd like a look at the effect of these "harmless" sniper bullets - possibly supplied by the British.
You have yet to comment on the morality of Britain selling to dictators - from which I think we can gather that you support it.
Jim Carroll

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-28/middleeast/world_meast_syria-homs-scene_1_snipers-syrian-city-arab-league?_s=PM:MIDDLEEAST
Snipers rule the streets in the besieged Syrian city of Homs
ARAB LEAGUE
December 28, 2011|By the CNN Wire Staff
Exclusive: Government snipers prowl HomsFor months, the Syrian city of Homs has been the focus of opposition to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, with almost daily protests since the summer.
More recently, defectors from the military have begun organizing armed resistance. Meanwhile, government forces have tightened their siege of rebellious neighborhoods that are now under the control of the opposition.
A freelance journalist and filmmaker -- who is not named for his own security -- has just left Homs, and over the next few days CNN will be showcasing his remarkable stories from the front lines of a city at war.
Among the bullet-scarred walls of neighborhoods under siege, he encountered the government snipers who prowl the city picking off their victims apparently indiscriminately and at will.
He found snipers stationed on almost every main street, manning checkpoints on both sides and firing at anybody crossing the street between 4 p.m. and 8 a.m. the next day -- imposing a kind of unofficial curfew.
He spoke to one woman whose daughter was seven months pregnant when she was shot in the head as she tried to venture out of the house to do some shopping. The snipers kept shooting as relatives tried to reach the pregnant woman where she lay dead in the street, before finally they were able to bring her body back to her mother's home.
To film what was going on, the journalist too had to risk his life on the streets of Homs, with about 1 million inhabitants the country's third-largest city.
View his images in hi-res
"I had to cross several times exactly the same streets where people got shot several minutes before. And you arrive at a scene where half an hour ago someone got shot and 30 minutes later people are crossing the street normally," he said.
"Me crossing the street, I was feeling literally that the sniper is aiming at me and it is up to him if he is going to pull the trigger or not."
Residents describe the daily struggle of life in the cross-hairs, some telling how they throw bread and other supplies across the street to others who cannot safely traverse to reach a shop.
A monitoring mission from the Arab League arrived in the city Tuesday but opposition activists fear they will not see the full extent of a brutal government crackdown that the United Nations says has claimed more than 5,000 lives nationwide.
Despite the days-long military siege, thousands turned out for anti-government demonstrations as the Arab League team entered the city.