Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow!

Subject: Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 01:00 PM

OK, so once again I've tried to get some folks to take a look at something that might be better suited to another thread (blues, jazz, improvisation) through a bit of subterfuge in the title. I didn't want to focus on the song's origins "Bad Girls Lament" etc. or even the pretty well known recorded sources that Fred Hellerman was probably familiar with like Hally Wood, Josh White or even Woody. And especially not on the trail that led to the #1 hit song: Van Ronk, to Dylan, to Burdon. What I remember vividly was that when Fred accompanied Ronnie Gilbert's singing of this song (with the Weavers) it was probably the first time I had heard jazz inversions used in a folk song. It was a bit confusing at first, but after a few listens it became haunting and quite beautiful. Made "The House..." into a totally different song . Just wondered if anyone (Frank, perhaps) has any feedback.

Rick

Subject: RE: Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow!
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 03:06 PM

Rick, I, as you know, am new to a lot of the trad stuff. I didn't know anything about this being an "old" song, just thought it was R&R, until this year. I heard a trad version, don't remember who by, but it captivated me and, as you say, was a totally different song; one which I prefer, now that I am familiar with it. Absolutely beautiful.

katalwayslearningsomethingnew

Subject: RE: Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow!
From: WyoWoman
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 03:49 PM

Rick-- For years I've sung this one as more of a "trad" song, and sung female lyrics, which I don't know whether were the original or were some permutation that I heard Ronnie Gilbert sing. At any rate, my understanding was that it was a song about a woman who was about to die in a house of ill repute ("I'm going back to New Orleans; my race is almost run; I'm going back to end my days beneath that Rising Sun...").

Is that your understanding?

Let's do it in A. Right now, OK?

Subject: RE: Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow!
From: Stewie
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 02:28 AM

Rick, forgive me for the thread creep (or drift), but you can blame WyoWoman for her posting above. The first commercial recording of the song was by Clarence 'Tom' Ashley (guitar and vocals) accompanied by Gwen Foster (harmonica). I don't know the date, but it was probably 1931. Ashley has said that he thought he recalled his grandmother, Enoch Ashley, singing it to him when he was a young boy. Ashley taught it to Roy Acuff at medicine shows and Acuff also recorded it. It was also recorded by the Callahan Brothers in the 1930s. I think Woody, Josh White etc recorded it later in the 1940s. The Library of Congress also has some early recordings, all from Kentucky singers. In the country scene, it was a 'rounder' song. Here is Ashley's version which is interesting to compare with the wellknown version in DT:

There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
Where many a poor boy to destruction has gone
And me, Oh God, I'm one

Just fill the glass up to the brim
Let the drinks go merrily round
We'll drink to the life of a rounder, poor boy
Who goes from town to town

All in this world does a rounder want
Is a suitcase and a trunk
The only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on the drunk

Now, boys, don't you believe what a girl tells you
Let her eyes be blue or brown
Unless she's on some scaffold high
Saying, 'Boy's I can't come down'

I'm going back – back to New Orleans
For my race is almost run
Gonna spend the rest of my wicked life
Beneath the Rising Sun

Source: 'Old Time Music at Clarence Ashley's Vol 2 Folkways LP FA 2359

Trusting that the above is of interest, regards Stewie.

Subject: RE: Fred Hellerman's 'Rising Sun'. Wow!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 10:57 AM

Thanks Stewie, interesting indeed. Please folks, don't let my comment about "let's talk about one arrangement, not the history of the song" put you off. It's just that there have been many previous talks about the song's background and I didn't want anyone to think I was just re-hashing. Obviously everything's fair game.
I love the Ashley recording (and Doc's, AND Leadbelly's especially), but now you HAVE got me wondering about any previous recordings in a jazz vein (possibly under different titles.) Think I'll start checking.

Rick