BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?

Subject: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:50 AM

As usual, 'the media' is putting a sensational spin on a news item, deliberately missing the point completely...

It is proposed to allow learner drivers on motorways so that they aren't taken by surprise after they pass their tests.

No, this isn't (as the media would have you believe) a willy-nilly mass rush of inexperienced learner drivers taking to the motorways with their mums in the passgenger seat!!

There are conditions... they would have to be with a qualified instructor in a dual controlled car. Would any driving instructor seriously wish to endanger their own life by taking an unsafe learner on to a motorway?

It's unlikely, too, that an instructor would expose a learner to 'rush hour' conditions, because they would risk wasting a lot of valuable instruction time in heavy traffic, possibly even missing a following appointment as a consequence.

I suggest, therefore, that it is a positive move and unlikely to cause the mayhem the Road Haulage Association have been 'quoted' to have predicted!!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:59 AM

And for people in East Anglia or North Wales where there are no motorways???

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM

The mayhem is the present situation where you pass your test having never joined, left or driven on motorway terms and then you are out there for the first time without an instructor.

I passed my test thirty odd years ago, and took up the instructor on his offer of a motorway lesson after passing my test. It boosted my confidence and made me less nervous till I had learned how to drive, (something you start doing after passing your test.)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:06 AM

And for people in East Anglia or North Wales where there are no motorways???

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:09 AM

I wonder if the answer is a two-stage qualification. Say, for two months after a test pass, one is not allowed on motorways, then follows say, two post-test lessons on motorways, giving a stamp on the licence indicating full competence. (My suggestions for timescale are arbitrary) Problem for us in Norfolk, as Silas says. We have no motorways here!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:16 AM

Silas - I quite agree... that is apparently why they aren't intending to make it compulsory.

Ian - I think it's high time we implemented a 'P' plate system (as they have had in Ireland for at least forty years to my knowledge). A new driver displays the 'P' plate for their first year of driving, possibly with some restrictions - such as driving on a motorway only with a qualified driver present.

Someone on the radio this morning was suggesting re-tests for older drivers. Yes, that old chestnut! A more appropriate idea may be similar to those imposed on pilots, where they must fly a certain number of hours per year.

Admittedly it would be more difficult to administer such a system for drivers of cars used by more than one driver, but I do feel that very low mileage drivers are more of a risk to themselves and others than people such as I, who drive in excess of 20,000 miles a year - a lot of it on motorways.

My own father, for example, who now doesn't drive (we took the car away a year ago) drove so little that he was a potential risk. He had a fourteen-year-old car with only 38600 miles on the odometer, and we took the decision after my daughter twice visited the house to find the car on the drive with the engine running, and my father inside watching TV. To be fair, he's pushing 90!

Some 60-year-olds are as good as, if not better than some younger drivers, but others present a real danger because they are over-cautious. A car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:17 AM

Sorry, Eliza - crossed posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: gnomad
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM

The lessons are not to be compulsory, Silas, so those living without access to motorways will only be disadvantaged if they drive elsewhere. Presumably, they can travel to obtain such instruction if they feel the need.

I doubt that the populations you mention would support building motorways just in order to provide experience for their learner drivers, though I am sure that some would welcome motorways for more normal purposes. Much of Scotland and other remoter areas are also without motorways within the range of the average driving lesson, it would have to be at least a half-day lesson to get any benefit.

I know that I would have welcomed a bit of motorway experience when I started out driving. I suspect that many city-based drivers would benefit from a short course in rural driving skills too (approaching livestock, keeping attention on the road, fords, passing places, that sort of thing).

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:59 AM

I would have thought that at the very least there should be evidence of a pre-assessment by the driving instructor on a dual carriageway to lead to the conclusion that the learner would not be dangerous on the motorway.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 08:02 AM

"And for people in .... North Wales where there are no motorways?"

Having driven on motorways and the North Wales Expressway, some of which has motorway restrictions, I would say that anyone who can navigate the A55 and survive, probably has more than enough skills to negoyiate a motorway, including entering and leaving - most junctions are of motorway standard even if the road itself isn't.

As for older drivers resitting their test, their are many about who have never passed a test in the class of vehicle they're driving - look at most of the cars towing caravans!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 08:16 AM

Caravans!! Don't get me started!!

A driver of an articulated lorry (HGV Class 1, I think?) is obliged to take rigorous theory and practical tests, yet caravanners are not. Seems odd to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 08:32 AM

Not really bernard. A HGV driver will be driving that vehicle for 8 to 10 hours a day for 5 days a week, in city centres, narrow roads etc. A caravanner will use it probably three times a year on very well planned routes and on main roads. No the same thing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 09:53 AM

Just because caravanners are only occasional drivers with trailers doesn't mean they shouldn't be tested on them - quite the reverse. there are different speed limits, reversing techniques etc. The number of car drivers that I've seen who don't realise that they've lost control of their trailer, or are hoping that the trailer is intelligent enough to bring itself under control is nobody's business. That is why you now need an additional test to pull atrailer of any size.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 11:15 AM

I am quite happy for caravanners to be tested on driving with a trailer - no problem, but it does not need to be as extensive as an HGV test.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM

I can honestly say I've never seen any trailer wholly out of control (except when the wheel fell off mine but it still followed the Volvo obediently) and the only ones I've seen looking a bit iffy were caravans that were starting to wag a bit - but only a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 12:32 PM

[quote]
I can honestly say I've never seen any trailer wholly out of control (except when the wheel fell off mine but it still followed the Volvo obediently) and the only ones I've seen looking a bit iffy were caravans that were starting to wag a bit - but only a bit.
[/quote]
A regular sight on the way home when I used to go to Sidmouth was at least one caravan turned over on one of the downhill sections of the A303

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 01:28 PM

a load of bollocks, people have been passing their tests for 50 years, and then going on motorways gradually, gradually building up confidence and experience.
how many drivers who have just passed their test, have caused accidents on motorways, most accidents are caused by people who have been driving a long time,and are too blase, and take unnecessary risks, and who drive too close to other drivers, not allowing correct braking distance.
most people who have just passed the test, maybe a little nervous, but they do not take unnecessary risks.
the best plan is to drive at a quieter time and just drive in the inside lane at 50 mph and come off at the next junction, gradually building up confidence, this latest scheme is just a nice money earner for driving instructors, and has not been necessary for the last 50 years.
if people are sensible and most drivers who have just pssed their test are, they are nervous of motorway driving any way, and generally build up their confidence in the way I have described

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 01:50 PM

Not sure what the regulations are now , but back in the mid Sixties , the UK government stopped any Learner driver from riding a SOLO Motorcycle larger than 250cc .
However , WITH a sidecar , the ONLY restriction was that Motorways were off limits , but passengers could be carried
I was a serious Sidecar user , and was not affected by this change in the law , but was horrified at the thought that as the law stood , a Teenager could buy a BIG bike with a sidecar and carry any
of his friends who wanted to risk thir lives with him perfectly legally !

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:45 PM

It's frightening that most people when asked what to do if their caravan starts 'fishtailing' (wagging) think they should accelerate to pull it straight, when quite the opposite is the correct approach.

The hours spent driving would suggest to me more of a reason to provide adequate training rather than less. Only using a vehicle configuration for a relatively short time doesn't mean they are less likely to kill someone! In the UK, particularly in Wales and Scotland, they are usually on narrow country lanes... more of a reason to provide appropriate testing for both the driver and the trailer.

I'm with GUEST PeterC on this - I frequently see what's left of caravans (and cars) when something has gone horribly wrong. Mind you, it's fair to say we have an alarming number of overturned lorries in the Manchester area...

Dick - the lad who wrote off my car (and his) was a new driver on a motorway... the accident could easily have been fatal, as I rammed the passenger door of his car. The traffic cop who attended the incident told the lad he would treat it as a 'momentary lapse of concentration' an not press charges as no-one was injured. He also told him to accept responsibility for the accident when reporting it to his insurers (he'd had the car two weeks and was on his father's insurance)... so I'm in a good position to refute your argument!!

In Ireland, I believe they have been running the 'P' plate scheme for at least forty years...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:11 PM

bernard no offence intended, but you are generalising from one particular incident
I would accept your argument if you had statistics which showed that a high proportion of accidents on motorways were caused by drivers who had just passed their test.
I doubt if you have, but if you have I would accept your particular experience as being one that was generally correct

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:16 PM

there are hardly any motorways in ireland, thank god

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:19 PM

The worst thing to do is brake. If you are going downhill that makes life quite tricky!

http://www.justdriving.net/driving-theory-test-question-bank/vehicle-loading.html


"In all cases, when snaking occurs, take your foot off of the throttle and keep it off the brakes. A gentle reduction of speed is the only recommended method of stopping the snaking."

http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/caravanning/faqweight.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:21 PM

About the best explanation I have found online is this one:-

Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?

As a driving instructor, I personally would welcome the change. To give pupils experience of dual carriageways, I have to take them on the non-motorway section of the A1, which is frequently two solid lanes of traffic with few spaces for a learner to join. There often is no way that traffic in the inside lane can move over, as the outside lane is also solid traffic.
By contrast, the M62 in the direction of Hull is relatively quiet by comparison, has three lanes for traffic to pass and much longer slip roads. A heck of a lot safer for driving on.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:48 PM

Well I sincerely hope that all these motorway experts around 'ere will teach their pupils the golden rules of motorway driving, thus: (1) If nervous, just drive at 50 in the inside lane (as suggested above) - the lorry drivers won't mind at all, I promise, in fact they'll be only too pleased to protect you from all the other, more dangerous, road-users by hovering eight inches from your back bumper!! (2) When you're more confident, just drive at any speed you like but always in the middle lane, as it's very bad form to take the risk of being "boxed in!" (3) Forget all that mirror stuff - there's probably nothing behind you anyway, and, even if there is, it's their fault if anything happens because they must have been too close! (4) Signalling is for wusses - it's much safer not to, as the resulting element of unpredictability will keep all the other drivers on their toes, making it safer for everyone! (5) But if you really must signal, turn your radio up full blast, then you won't hear that pesky click-clicking noise that your right-hand indicator makes all the way, non-stop, from Cribbs Causeway to the M62 turn-off!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 09:16 PM

In this country the "Motorways" are safer than the secondary roads. At least, everyone if going in the same direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:01 AM

If we're advocating 'extra' qualifications (as I just did above) I expect the whole thing will cost an arm and a leg for the administration and enforcement. Here in Norfolk, we have a larger-than-average proportion of elderly drivers, and the nature of our roads(quiet country lanes etc) gives them a false sense of security. They meander all over the place, and drive at a constant 40 MPH, whether the limit is 60 or 30! If we were to have a motorway, there'd be a massacre of these poor old folk. (I'm a 'poor old folk' too, but I like to think I drive extremely safely, as in 40 years I haven't had even a tiny prang!)
By the way (thread drift alarm) has anyone any experience of the famous 'Magic Roundabout' at Hemel Hempstead? (A very complicated road system with a sign like a scribble) You approach it, do everything correctly, and always, but always, end up going the wrong way around it. The locals find this very amusing, but it's highly dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM

By the way, I've always had the beginnings of a new folk song in my head, which begins, "Everyone in Norfolk droive at forty moil an ar.. whether on a mooped, or whether in a car..., on the A140 or down a country laane," One day, I might finish composing it!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:07 AM

Gosh, is that roundabout still there?! I remember it from at least 30 years ago. I have a new suggested scheme which would force caravanners and wrinklies to retake their driving tests every six weeks and to refrain from using public roads except between the hours of 2 and 5a.m. I was thinking that the same time restriction could be extended to over-70s who shop in Bude Morrisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:16 AM

If you live long enough, you'll be a wrinkly one day.
Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

Dick, a quick search in Google brings up: "Aimed at reducing the high accident rate among young drivers"... you'll have to scroll down the page to find it.

I have neither the time nor inclination to research statistics.

Read my opening post again... the facts speak for themselves. Don't read into what I said something that I didn't say.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: banjoman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

Sounding the horn vigourously enables the car (and caravan) to be driven thro small gaps.

Alcohol taken before driving enables the car (and caravan) to be driven through even smaller gaps.

The correct position for the right foot is as near to the floor as possible -known as Leadfooting.

Avoid looking in your mirrors - you should be interested in where you are going and not where you've been.

Brakes should only be applied at the very end of your journey - otherwise they just slow you down.

I have been towing caravans for over 40 years and also have experience of buses, mobile cranes and artics - so be careful who you single out as in need of a test. I have never had so much as a speeding ticket or parking fine.

I agree that some level of motorway training should be given to all learner drivers.

The first bit of this message is a part of a joke which my driving instructor(Artics) told me many years ago so dont take it seriously

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 06:27 AM

1.lorry drivers should not be driving at faster than 60 anyway.
2.Everyone on this thread has at sometime passed their test, and had to use a motorway for the first time how many people on this thread had an accident on the first couple of occasions they used the motorway?very few,probably none,it has not been necessary for the last 50 years and is not necessary now.
3 Bernard you are generalising from one particular experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:12 AM

""A regular sight on the way home when I used to go to Sidmouth was at least one caravan turned over on one of the downhill sections of the A303""

Odd that.

I was a regular at Sidmouth from 1954 till 2007 and I used the A303 for the whole of that time, both ways.

I have only seen two caravan accidents on that road. One overturned in very high winds, and the other hit up the arse by an inept HGV driver.

Most of us are extremely careful about looking after our vans which cost as much as a small to medium car tobuy, and considerably more to repair.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:15 AM

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:21 AM

I know of one caravan flipped (by someone else) on the A299 - but it was a bad set of circumstances - large van, Ford Focus, high winds, gap in adjacent trees, and overconfidence induced by Al-Ko stabiliser causing brain fade resulting in failure to reduce speed from 60 and nudging, despite the conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:46 AM

If you live long enough, you'll be a wrinkly one day.
Think about it.

I did think about it just now, but I've forgotten what I was thinking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:01 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:10 AM

lorry drivers should not be driving at faster than 60 anyway

That's 10mph faster than your recommended slow lane speed. That's really going to makes the knights of the road deliriously happy. At least you won't need your mirror, as it will be full of behemoth a few inches from your arse.

I like the hopeful "should" there, by the way. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:13 AM

make yeah

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:22 AM

steve , 60 mph its theHGV legal limit, if they break this speed they are driving dangerously, nevr mind people who have just passed their test, if hgv drivers go faster than 60 mph they are driving dangerously, along with car drivers going faster than the legal limit, for god sake when will people like Steve Shaw realise that breaking speed limits is dangerous,[imo] most of your remarks on the internet really are idiotic

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:37 AM

Huh? I was stating facts in that last post, old boy. Tell you what. I have to hit the M5 later this week. I'll sit in the inside lane doing 50 all the way. I may not be reporting back...

And when did I recommend breaking speed limits, by the way? Blimey, Dick, wrong side of bed again?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

Aren't HGVs fitted with limiters nowadays? I worked for a shipping & haulage company until 1997, and all their 38T artics had 56mph limiters fitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:38 PM

Grrrrr!

I've just spent nearly 3 hours stuck on the M60 because some berk overturned his trailer full of sheep (all of which died and were piled up rather unceremoniously on the hard shoulder with half a dozen RSPCA vans scattered around for good measure).

A police spokesman said there were no other vehicles involved...

As it was a 'close couple' trailer, it's possible he had a puncture in one of the four tyres that he either didn't know about or was ignoring, and a second puncture finished the job off.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 01:43 PM

so Steve, if a lorry can only legally do 56 mph, whats the problem with a newly passed driver doing 50 mph, in the inside lane between one or even two junctions. if the lorries are keeping to the legal speed limit, or 56 mph on their tachos, whats the problem with a newly passed driver or anyone else doing 50 mph on the inside lane.
if they[lorries] are exceeding 56 to 60mph and causing you problems, that means the police are not doing their job.
if newly passed drivers cannot do 50 mph in the inside lane, because other drivers are driving dangerously, the government is once again tilting at windmills by introducing this nonsensical scheme, what they should be doing is cutting out dangerous drivers on the motorway, those dangerous drivers who drive too close and exceed the speed limit.
checkmate Steve.
Bernard,what is the relevance, was the sheep driver someone who had only just passed his test?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:36 PM

Lorries (up to 7.5 tons) can do 70 mph on motorways. Larger vehicles, and any vehicle towing a trailer (eg cars with caravans) are restricted to 60mph. Not all wagons have delimiters yet, so it is dangerous to assume that they can't do more than 90kph (c56mph). Vehicles travelling at 50mph on a motorway may be stopped for travelling too slowly.

The regulations in Ireland are slightly different.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:38 PM

There is a parody on Blue eyes crying in the rain, called Blue hairs driving in my lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:17 PM

Get real, Dick. We all know what the cops should be doing but we all know there ain't anywhere near enough of 'em to hang around all day and night on motorways to nab speedsters and tailgaters and we all know that speeding and tailgating are rife. We also know that motorways are statistically the safest roads, which is why cops don't hang around on 'em in force, etc. etc. The police may well be doing their job but it will be somewhere other than on motorways. In the last two months I've done four 300-mile motorway jags, on the M5-M6-M62-M60, and I saw one cop car in all that time and I reckon the vast majority of cars were doing at least 80. No-one actually gets done these days for under 80 on motorways. This is the real world, not the world of Dick's make-believe. And, whatever the rules, if you drive at 50 in the inside lane you will eventually be hassled from behind by lorries. Of course they shouldn't do it, but neither should anyone be stickin' to 50 on a motorway. There simply isn't room.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:21 PM

Doing at least 80 whenever they could, of course. You always need that caveat whenever you're rattling on about the bloody M6.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 04:32 AM

The MINUMUM speed for cars on a motorway should be 60mph, anything less is positivly dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 06:24 AM

Well you can't legislate for every circumstance, such as cars pulling trailers up long hills, those b*ast*ard caravans, getting boxed in behind lorries, bad weather (define!), etc., and a minimum speed law would probably become just as much an ass as the routinely ignored maximum speed law. Unenforceable laws do not good laws make. 60 would seem to be a sensible minimum speed in good conditions and I think that the Highway Code and driving instruction should make this clear to would-be drivers. After all, you can fail your driving test for not making sufficient progress on non-motorway roads. If road conditions are good, you shouldn't be doing 22 where the limit is 30 if it means you are impeding other traffic. Advocating driving at 50 in the inside lane is just very bad advice. In the end you would just get up everybody else's noses and it wouldn't exactly help your own nerves. Nor would it it contribute to building you motorway confidence. Frightened rabbits do not get to be bolder by feeling frightened.