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BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?

Bernard 20 Feb 12 - 06:50 AM
Silas 20 Feb 12 - 06:59 AM
Musket 20 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM
Silas 20 Feb 12 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Feb 12 - 07:09 AM
Bernard 20 Feb 12 - 07:16 AM
Bernard 20 Feb 12 - 07:17 AM
gnomad 20 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Feb 12 - 07:59 AM
Dave MacKenzie 20 Feb 12 - 08:02 AM
Bernard 20 Feb 12 - 08:16 AM
Silas 20 Feb 12 - 08:32 AM
Dave MacKenzie 20 Feb 12 - 09:53 AM
Silas 20 Feb 12 - 11:15 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,PeterC 20 Feb 12 - 12:32 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 12 - 01:28 PM
Leadfingers 20 Feb 12 - 01:50 PM
Bernard 20 Feb 12 - 04:45 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 12 - 06:11 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 12 - 06:16 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Feb 12 - 06:19 PM
Geoff the Duck 20 Feb 12 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 12 - 06:48 PM
kendall 20 Feb 12 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,Eliza 21 Feb 12 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Eliza 21 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 05:07 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Feb 12 - 05:16 AM
Bernard 21 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM
banjoman 21 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM
The Sandman 21 Feb 12 - 06:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Feb 12 - 07:12 AM
Silas 21 Feb 12 - 07:15 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Feb 12 - 07:21 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 08:46 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Feb 12 - 09:01 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 09:10 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 09:13 AM
The Sandman 21 Feb 12 - 09:22 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 09:37 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM
Bernard 21 Feb 12 - 12:38 PM
The Sandman 21 Feb 12 - 01:43 PM
Dave MacKenzie 21 Feb 12 - 07:36 PM
kendall 21 Feb 12 - 07:38 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 08:17 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 12 - 08:21 PM
Silas 22 Feb 12 - 04:32 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Feb 12 - 06:24 AM
The Sandman 22 Feb 12 - 07:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 12 - 07:48 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Feb 12 - 08:01 AM
Silas 22 Feb 12 - 08:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM
The Sandman 22 Feb 12 - 10:12 AM
Silas 22 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM
Dave MacKenzie 22 Feb 12 - 11:17 AM
Silas 22 Feb 12 - 12:35 PM
Penny S. 22 Feb 12 - 01:20 PM
Bernard 22 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Feb 12 - 02:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Feb 12 - 05:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 12 - 06:17 PM
The Sandman 22 Feb 12 - 06:27 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Feb 12 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Feb 12 - 08:20 PM
scouse 23 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 12 - 04:13 AM
Stu 23 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM
Dave MacKenzie 23 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,grumpy 23 Feb 12 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,grumpy 23 Feb 12 - 08:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 12 - 10:10 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 12 - 10:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 12 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,grumpy 23 Feb 12 - 11:38 AM
Silas 23 Feb 12 - 02:02 PM
The Sandman 23 Feb 12 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,grumpy 23 Feb 12 - 03:06 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 12 - 03:30 PM
The Sandman 23 Feb 12 - 03:33 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 12 - 04:08 PM
The Sandman 23 Feb 12 - 05:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 12 - 05:33 AM
Silas 24 Feb 12 - 05:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 12 - 10:09 AM
Silas 24 Feb 12 - 10:46 AM
Dave MacKenzie 24 Feb 12 - 11:21 AM
Silas 24 Feb 12 - 11:34 AM
Dave MacKenzie 24 Feb 12 - 11:46 AM
Dave MacKenzie 24 Feb 12 - 11:49 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Feb 12 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Eliza 24 Feb 12 - 02:15 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM
HuwG 25 Feb 12 - 03:32 PM
Bernard 25 Feb 12 - 03:44 PM
Bernard 25 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM
GUEST 25 Feb 12 - 07:34 PM
GUEST 25 Feb 12 - 07:37 PM
Doug Chadwick 26 Feb 12 - 03:47 AM
Dave MacKenzie 26 Feb 12 - 05:11 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM
Bernard 26 Feb 12 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,PeterC 26 Feb 12 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Eliza 26 Feb 12 - 02:46 PM
The Sandman 26 Feb 12 - 03:23 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Feb 12 - 04:56 PM
Bernard 26 Feb 12 - 06:05 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Feb 12 - 08:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Feb 12 - 09:01 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Feb 12 - 03:13 AM
GUEST 27 Feb 12 - 07:51 AM
Silas 27 Feb 12 - 07:59 AM
Silas 27 Feb 12 - 08:26 AM
gnomad 27 Feb 12 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 27 Feb 12 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,guest dick miles 27 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 12 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 12 - 07:15 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 12 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Guest Mad Driver 27 Feb 12 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 12 - 07:54 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Feb 12 - 11:10 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Feb 12 - 05:11 AM
Silas 28 Feb 12 - 05:45 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM
Penny S. 28 Feb 12 - 06:14 AM
Penny S. 28 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Feb 12 - 08:32 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM
Bernard 29 Feb 12 - 06:54 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Feb 12 - 08:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM
Silas 29 Feb 12 - 10:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM
Silas 29 Feb 12 - 11:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Feb 12 - 11:10 AM
Silas 29 Feb 12 - 11:29 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM
The Sandman 29 Feb 12 - 01:13 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Feb 12 - 03:13 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Feb 12 - 05:52 PM
The Sandman 29 Feb 12 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Feb 12 - 07:20 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 12 - 12:52 AM
The Sandman 01 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 12 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 12 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM
The Sandman 01 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM
The Sandman 01 Mar 12 - 08:24 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 12 - 08:59 AM
Silas 01 Mar 12 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Bystander 01 Mar 12 - 12:25 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 12 - 12:30 PM
The Sandman 01 Mar 12 - 12:51 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 12 - 07:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Mar 12 - 08:31 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Mar 12 - 08:51 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 12 - 11:14 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 12 - 05:04 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 12 - 09:46 AM
Silas 02 Mar 12 - 09:52 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 12 - 10:04 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM
Silas 02 Mar 12 - 10:11 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM
Bernard 02 Mar 12 - 04:42 PM
The Sandman 02 Mar 12 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM
The Sandman 03 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM
Silas 03 Mar 12 - 08:39 AM
The Sandman 03 Mar 12 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 12 - 06:05 PM

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Subject: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:50 AM

As usual, 'the media' is putting a sensational spin on a news item, deliberately missing the point completely...

It is proposed to allow learner drivers on motorways so that they aren't taken by surprise after they pass their tests.

No, this isn't (as the media would have you believe) a willy-nilly mass rush of inexperienced learner drivers taking to the motorways with their mums in the passgenger seat!!

There are conditions... they would have to be with a qualified instructor in a dual controlled car. Would any driving instructor seriously wish to endanger their own life by taking an unsafe learner on to a motorway?

It's unlikely, too, that an instructor would expose a learner to 'rush hour' conditions, because they would risk wasting a lot of valuable instruction time in heavy traffic, possibly even missing a following appointment as a consequence.

I suggest, therefore, that it is a positive move and unlikely to cause the mayhem the Road Haulage Association have been 'quoted' to have predicted!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:59 AM

And for people in East Anglia or North Wales where there are no motorways???


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM

The mayhem is the present situation where you pass your test having never joined, left or driven on motorway terms and then you are out there for the first time without an instructor.

I passed my test thirty odd years ago, and took up the instructor on his offer of a motorway lesson after passing my test. It boosted my confidence and made me less nervous till I had learned how to drive, (something you start doing after passing your test.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:06 AM

And for people in East Anglia or North Wales where there are no motorways???


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:09 AM

I wonder if the answer is a two-stage qualification. Say, for two months after a test pass, one is not allowed on motorways, then follows say, two post-test lessons on motorways, giving a stamp on the licence indicating full competence. (My suggestions for timescale are arbitrary) Problem for us in Norfolk, as Silas says. We have no motorways here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:16 AM

Silas - I quite agree... that is apparently why they aren't intending to make it compulsory.

Ian - I think it's high time we implemented a 'P' plate system (as they have had in Ireland for at least forty years to my knowledge). A new driver displays the 'P' plate for their first year of driving, possibly with some restrictions - such as driving on a motorway only with a qualified driver present.

Someone on the radio this morning was suggesting re-tests for older drivers. Yes, that old chestnut! A more appropriate idea may be similar to those imposed on pilots, where they must fly a certain number of hours per year.

Admittedly it would be more difficult to administer such a system for drivers of cars used by more than one driver, but I do feel that very low mileage drivers are more of a risk to themselves and others than people such as I, who drive in excess of 20,000 miles a year - a lot of it on motorways.

My own father, for example, who now doesn't drive (we took the car away a year ago) drove so little that he was a potential risk. He had a fourteen-year-old car with only 38600 miles on the odometer, and we took the decision after my daughter twice visited the house to find the car on the drive with the engine running, and my father inside watching TV. To be fair, he's pushing 90!

Some 60-year-olds are as good as, if not better than some younger drivers, but others present a real danger because they are over-cautious. A car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:17 AM

Sorry, Eliza - crossed posts!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: gnomad
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM

The lessons are not to be compulsory, Silas, so those living without access to motorways will only be disadvantaged if they drive elsewhere. Presumably, they can travel to obtain such instruction if they feel the need.

I doubt that the populations you mention would support building motorways just in order to provide experience for their learner drivers, though I am sure that some would welcome motorways for more normal purposes. Much of Scotland and other remoter areas are also without motorways within the range of the average driving lesson, it would have to be at least a half-day lesson to get any benefit.

I know that I would have welcomed a bit of motorway experience when I started out driving. I suspect that many city-based drivers would benefit from a short course in rural driving skills too (approaching livestock, keeping attention on the road, fords, passing places, that sort of thing).


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 07:59 AM

I would have thought that at the very least there should be evidence of a pre-assessment by the driving instructor on a dual carriageway to lead to the conclusion that the learner would not be dangerous on the motorway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 08:02 AM

"And for people in .... North Wales where there are no motorways?"

Having driven on motorways and the North Wales Expressway, some of which has motorway restrictions, I would say that anyone who can navigate the A55 and survive, probably has more than enough skills to negoyiate a motorway, including entering and leaving - most junctions are of motorway standard even if the road itself isn't.

As for older drivers resitting their test, their are many about who have never passed a test in the class of vehicle they're driving - look at most of the cars towing caravans!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 08:16 AM

Caravans!! Don't get me started!!

A driver of an articulated lorry (HGV Class 1, I think?) is obliged to take rigorous theory and practical tests, yet caravanners are not. Seems odd to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 08:32 AM

Not really bernard. A HGV driver will be driving that vehicle for 8 to 10 hours a day for 5 days a week, in city centres, narrow roads etc. A caravanner will use it probably three times a year on very well planned routes and on main roads. No the same thing at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 09:53 AM

Just because caravanners are only occasional drivers with trailers doesn't mean they shouldn't be tested on them - quite the reverse. there are different speed limits, reversing techniques etc. The number of car drivers that I've seen who don't realise that they've lost control of their trailer, or are hoping that the trailer is intelligent enough to bring itself under control is nobody's business. That is why you now need an additional test to pull atrailer of any size.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 11:15 AM

I am quite happy for caravanners to be tested on driving with a trailer - no problem, but it does not need to be as extensive as an HGV test.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM

I can honestly say I've never seen any trailer wholly out of control (except when the wheel fell off mine but it still followed the Volvo obediently) and the only ones I've seen looking a bit iffy were caravans that were starting to wag a bit - but only a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 12:32 PM

[quote]
I can honestly say I've never seen any trailer wholly out of control (except when the wheel fell off mine but it still followed the Volvo obediently) and the only ones I've seen looking a bit iffy were caravans that were starting to wag a bit - but only a bit.
[/quote]
A regular sight on the way home when I used to go to Sidmouth was at least one caravan turned over on one of the downhill sections of the A303


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 01:28 PM

a load of bollocks, people have been passing their tests for 50 years, and then going on motorways gradually, gradually building up confidence and experience.
how many drivers who have just passed their test, have caused accidents on motorways, most accidents are caused by people who have been driving a long time,and are too blase, and take unnecessary risks, and who drive too close to other drivers, not allowing correct braking distance.
most people who have just passed the test, maybe a little nervous, but they do not take unnecessary risks.
the best plan is to drive at a quieter time and just drive in the inside lane at 50 mph and come off at the next junction, gradually building up confidence, this latest scheme is just a nice money earner for driving instructors, and has not been necessary for the last 50 years.
if people are sensible and most drivers who have just pssed their test are, they are nervous of motorway driving any way, and generally build up their confidence in the way I have described


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 01:50 PM

Not sure what the regulations are now , but back in the mid Sixties , the UK government stopped any Learner driver from riding a SOLO Motorcycle larger than 250cc .
However , WITH a sidecar , the ONLY restriction was that Motorways were off limits , but passengers could be carried
I was a serious Sidecar user , and was not affected by this change in the law , but was horrified at the thought that as the law stood , a Teenager could buy a BIG bike with a sidecar and carry any
of his friends who wanted to risk thir lives with him perfectly legally !


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:45 PM

It's frightening that most people when asked what to do if their caravan starts 'fishtailing' (wagging) think they should accelerate to pull it straight, when quite the opposite is the correct approach.

The hours spent driving would suggest to me more of a reason to provide adequate training rather than less. Only using a vehicle configuration for a relatively short time doesn't mean they are less likely to kill someone! In the UK, particularly in Wales and Scotland, they are usually on narrow country lanes... more of a reason to provide appropriate testing for both the driver and the trailer.

I'm with GUEST PeterC on this - I frequently see what's left of caravans (and cars) when something has gone horribly wrong. Mind you, it's fair to say we have an alarming number of overturned lorries in the Manchester area...

Dick - the lad who wrote off my car (and his) was a new driver on a motorway... the accident could easily have been fatal, as I rammed the passenger door of his car. The traffic cop who attended the incident told the lad he would treat it as a 'momentary lapse of concentration' an not press charges as no-one was injured. He also told him to accept responsibility for the accident when reporting it to his insurers (he'd had the car two weeks and was on his father's insurance)... so I'm in a good position to refute your argument!!

In Ireland, I believe they have been running the 'P' plate scheme for at least forty years...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:11 PM

bernard no offence intended, but you are generalising from one particular incident
I would accept your argument if you had statistics which showed that a high proportion of accidents on motorways were caused by drivers who had just passed their test.
I doubt if you have, but if you have I would accept your particular experience as being one that was generally correct


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:16 PM

there are hardly any motorways in ireland, thank god


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:19 PM

The worst thing to do is brake. If you are going downhill that makes life quite tricky!

http://www.justdriving.net/driving-theory-test-question-bank/vehicle-loading.html


"In all cases, when snaking occurs, take your foot off of the throttle and keep it off the brakes. A gentle reduction of speed is the only recommended method of stopping the snaking."

http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/caravanning/faqweight.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:21 PM

About the best explanation I have found online is this one:-

Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?


As a driving instructor, I personally would welcome the change. To give pupils experience of dual carriageways, I have to take them on the non-motorway section of the A1, which is frequently two solid lanes of traffic with few spaces for a learner to join. There often is no way that traffic in the inside lane can move over, as the outside lane is also solid traffic.
By contrast, the M62 in the direction of Hull is relatively quiet by comparison, has three lanes for traffic to pass and much longer slip roads. A heck of a lot safer for driving on.

Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:48 PM

Well I sincerely hope that all these motorway experts around 'ere will teach their pupils the golden rules of motorway driving, thus: (1) If nervous, just drive at 50 in the inside lane (as suggested above) - the lorry drivers won't mind at all, I promise, in fact they'll be only too pleased to protect you from all the other, more dangerous, road-users by hovering eight inches from your back bumper!! (2) When you're more confident, just drive at any speed you like but always in the middle lane, as it's very bad form to take the risk of being "boxed in!" (3) Forget all that mirror stuff - there's probably nothing behind you anyway, and, even if there is, it's their fault if anything happens because they must have been too close! (4) Signalling is for wusses - it's much safer not to, as the resulting element of unpredictability will keep all the other drivers on their toes, making it safer for everyone! (5) But if you really must signal, turn your radio up full blast, then you won't hear that pesky click-clicking noise that your right-hand indicator makes all the way, non-stop, from Cribbs Causeway to the M62 turn-off!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 09:16 PM

In this country the "Motorways" are safer than the secondary roads. At least, everyone if going in the same direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:01 AM

If we're advocating 'extra' qualifications (as I just did above) I expect the whole thing will cost an arm and a leg for the administration and enforcement. Here in Norfolk, we have a larger-than-average proportion of elderly drivers, and the nature of our roads(quiet country lanes etc) gives them a false sense of security. They meander all over the place, and drive at a constant 40 MPH, whether the limit is 60 or 30! If we were to have a motorway, there'd be a massacre of these poor old folk. (I'm a 'poor old folk' too, but I like to think I drive extremely safely, as in 40 years I haven't had even a tiny prang!)
By the way (thread drift alarm) has anyone any experience of the famous 'Magic Roundabout' at Hemel Hempstead? (A very complicated road system with a sign like a scribble) You approach it, do everything correctly, and always, but always, end up going the wrong way around it. The locals find this very amusing, but it's highly dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM

By the way, I've always had the beginnings of a new folk song in my head, which begins, "Everyone in Norfolk droive at forty moil an ar.. whether on a mooped, or whether in a car..., on the A140 or down a country laane," One day, I might finish composing it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:07 AM

Gosh, is that roundabout still there?! I remember it from at least 30 years ago. I have a new suggested scheme which would force caravanners and wrinklies to retake their driving tests every six weeks and to refrain from using public roads except between the hours of 2 and 5a.m. I was thinking that the same time restriction could be extended to over-70s who shop in Bude Morrisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:16 AM

If you live long enough, you'll be a wrinkly one day.
Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

Dick, a quick search in Google brings up: "Aimed at reducing the high accident rate among young drivers"... you'll have to scroll down the page to find it.

I have neither the time nor inclination to research statistics.

Read my opening post again... the facts speak for themselves. Don't read into what I said something that I didn't say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: banjoman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

Sounding the horn vigourously enables the car (and caravan) to be driven thro small gaps.

Alcohol taken before driving enables the car (and caravan) to be driven through even smaller gaps.

The correct position for the right foot is as near to the floor as possible -known as Leadfooting.

Avoid looking in your mirrors - you should be interested in where you are going and not where you've been.

Brakes should only be applied at the very end of your journey - otherwise they just slow you down.

I have been towing caravans for over 40 years and also have experience of buses, mobile cranes and artics - so be careful who you single out as in need of a test. I have never had so much as a speeding ticket or parking fine.

I agree that some level of motorway training should be given to all learner drivers.

The first bit of this message is a part of a joke which my driving instructor(Artics) told me many years ago so dont take it seriously


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 06:27 AM

1.lorry drivers should not be driving at faster than 60 anyway.
2.Everyone on this thread has at sometime passed their test, and had to use a motorway for the first time how many people on this thread had an accident on the first couple of occasions they used the motorway?very few,probably none,it has not been necessary for the last 50 years and is not necessary now.
3 Bernard you are generalising from one particular experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:12 AM

""A regular sight on the way home when I used to go to Sidmouth was at least one caravan turned over on one of the downhill sections of the A303""

Odd that.

I was a regular at Sidmouth from 1954 till 2007 and I used the A303 for the whole of that time, both ways.

I have only seen two caravan accidents on that road. One overturned in very high winds, and the other hit up the arse by an inept HGV driver.

Most of us are extremely careful about looking after our vans which cost as much as a small to medium car tobuy, and considerably more to repair.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:15 AM

Quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:21 AM

I know of one caravan flipped (by someone else) on the A299 - but it was a bad set of circumstances - large van, Ford Focus, high winds, gap in adjacent trees, and overconfidence induced by Al-Ko stabiliser causing brain fade resulting in failure to reduce speed from 60 and nudging, despite the conditions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:46 AM

If you live long enough, you'll be a wrinkly one day.
Think about it.


I did think about it just now, but I've forgotten what I was thinking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:01 AM

LOL! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:10 AM

lorry drivers should not be driving at faster than 60 anyway

That's 10mph faster than your recommended slow lane speed. That's really going to makes the knights of the road deliriously happy. At least you won't need your mirror, as it will be full of behemoth a few inches from your arse.

I like the hopeful "should" there, by the way. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:13 AM

make yeah


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:22 AM

steve , 60 mph its theHGV legal limit, if they break this speed they are driving dangerously, nevr mind people who have just passed their test, if hgv drivers go faster than 60 mph they are driving dangerously, along with car drivers going faster than the legal limit, for god sake when will people like Steve Shaw realise that breaking speed limits is dangerous,[imo] most of your remarks on the internet really are idiotic


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:37 AM

Huh? I was stating facts in that last post, old boy. Tell you what. I have to hit the M5 later this week. I'll sit in the inside lane doing 50 all the way. I may not be reporting back...

And when did I recommend breaking speed limits, by the way? Blimey, Dick, wrong side of bed again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

Aren't HGVs fitted with limiters nowadays? I worked for a shipping & haulage company until 1997, and all their 38T artics had 56mph limiters fitted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:38 PM

Grrrrr!

I've just spent nearly 3 hours stuck on the M60 because some berk overturned his trailer full of sheep (all of which died and were piled up rather unceremoniously on the hard shoulder with half a dozen RSPCA vans scattered around for good measure).

A police spokesman said there were no other vehicles involved...

As it was a 'close couple' trailer, it's possible he had a puncture in one of the four tyres that he either didn't know about or was ignoring, and a second puncture finished the job off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 01:43 PM

so Steve, if a lorry can only legally do 56 mph, whats the problem with a newly passed driver doing 50 mph, in the inside lane between one or even two junctions. if the lorries are keeping to the legal speed limit, or 56 mph on their tachos, whats the problem with a newly passed driver or anyone else doing 50 mph on the inside lane.
if they[lorries] are exceeding 56 to 60mph and causing you problems, that means the police are not doing their job.
if newly passed drivers cannot do 50 mph in the inside lane, because other drivers are driving dangerously, the government is once again tilting at windmills by introducing this nonsensical scheme, what they should be doing is cutting out dangerous drivers on the motorway, those dangerous drivers who drive too close and exceed the speed limit.
checkmate Steve.
Bernard,what is the relevance, was the sheep driver someone who had only just passed his test?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:36 PM

Lorries (up to 7.5 tons) can do 70 mph on motorways. Larger vehicles, and any vehicle towing a trailer (eg cars with caravans) are restricted to 60mph. Not all wagons have delimiters yet, so it is dangerous to assume that they can't do more than 90kph (c56mph). Vehicles travelling at 50mph on a motorway may be stopped for travelling too slowly.

The regulations in Ireland are slightly different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:38 PM

There is a parody on Blue eyes crying in the rain, called Blue hairs driving in my lane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:17 PM

Get real, Dick. We all know what the cops should be doing but we all know there ain't anywhere near enough of 'em to hang around all day and night on motorways to nab speedsters and tailgaters and we all know that speeding and tailgating are rife. We also know that motorways are statistically the safest roads, which is why cops don't hang around on 'em in force, etc. etc. The police may well be doing their job but it will be somewhere other than on motorways. In the last two months I've done four 300-mile motorway jags, on the M5-M6-M62-M60, and I saw one cop car in all that time and I reckon the vast majority of cars were doing at least 80. No-one actually gets done these days for under 80 on motorways. This is the real world, not the world of Dick's make-believe. And, whatever the rules, if you drive at 50 in the inside lane you will eventually be hassled from behind by lorries. Of course they shouldn't do it, but neither should anyone be stickin' to 50 on a motorway. There simply isn't room.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:21 PM

Doing at least 80 whenever they could, of course. You always need that caveat whenever you're rattling on about the bloody M6.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 04:32 AM

The MINUMUM speed for cars on a motorway should be 60mph, anything less is positivly dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 06:24 AM

Well you can't legislate for every circumstance, such as cars pulling trailers up long hills, those b*ast*ard caravans, getting boxed in behind lorries, bad weather (define!), etc., and a minimum speed law would probably become just as much an ass as the routinely ignored maximum speed law. Unenforceable laws do not good laws make. 60 would seem to be a sensible minimum speed in good conditions and I think that the Highway Code and driving instruction should make this clear to would-be drivers. After all, you can fail your driving test for not making sufficient progress on non-motorway roads. If road conditions are good, you shouldn't be doing 22 where the limit is 30 if it means you are impeding other traffic. Advocating driving at 50 in the inside lane is just very bad advice. In the end you would just get up everybody else's noses and it wouldn't exactly help your own nerves. Nor would it it contribute to building you motorway confidence. Frightened rabbits do not get to be bolder by feeling frightened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 07:46 AM

what complete nonsense,
the legal limit for hgv drivers is 60 mph, most lorries are fitted with tachos preventing them going faster than 56 mph, there is a reason for this the faster you travel the further is the braking distance required to avoid a collision.
no one can provide statistics to prove that most accidents are caused by motorway motorists who have just passed their tests, statistics exist that show that accidents are caused by people driving too fast and not allowing correct braking distances, some motorways have chevrons that are there to guide motorists for braking distance.
people like silas and steve shaw ,appear to be clueless about motorway driving, what constitutes dangerous driving? here: attention Shaw and Silas.get realyourselves    About
   

Dangerous Driving Conditions - Motorways

Driving on the UK's roads can be a dangerous practice at the best of times but add in the high speed of driving on the motorway and you have a recipe for disaster. So what can we do on the UK's motorways to reduce our risk of accident, injury and an increase in car insurance premiums?

Lane choice - correct lane choice can affect yours and other road user's safety on the motorway. Be aware not to sit in the middle or the outside lanes on the motorway. These lanes are there specifically for overtaking. Once you have overtaken you should move across into the inside lane, this will allow smooth movement of traffic along the motorway and reduce congestion. Incorrect lane choice and/or excessive lane changing can cause congestion and panic breaking on the motorway that can lead to accident and therefore an increase in car insurance premiums.

Speed - Excessive speed is probably the biggest cause of accident on the UK's motorways. The speed limit on the motorway is 70mph but the majority of motorists slightly exceed this with a few motorists exceeding this speed dramatically. By driving at an increased speed on the motorway it reduces your reaction time to any problems that may develop in front of you. This causes panic breaking on the motorway which can lead to nasty multiple car accidents, which can not only end up in many car insurance claims but also severe injury or even death.

Alertness - Another major cause of accidents on the motorway is driving whilst tired. Everyone has heard the saying 'tiredness can kill' and the fact is that it does on the UK roads every year. Driving on the motorway is very monotonous and this can reduce a driver's awareness very quickly. This reduction in awareness can lead to failure to react to an incident or loss of control resulting in accident or even death. To make sure that you stay aware of everything that is happening around you on the motorway take regular 15 minute breaks.

Awareness - Your general awareness on the motorway can be the difference between being involved in an accident and getting home safely. By being aware of what is happening in front and behind you it is easy to spot potential problems before they occur allowing you to react in the appropriate manner to keep yourself out of danger. Awareness of other road users can save you a lot of hassle, it someone is tailgating you pull over and allow them to pass rather than speeding up, they may not care about their NCB and car insurance premium but you do.

If everyone followed these few pointers then travelling on the motorway would be a lot safer and quicker. Unfortunately there are the motorists amongst us that feel the need to stop and stare at accidents, break the speed limits and tailgate other drivers. It is these drivers that you should be aware of most during your journey as it is these drivers that will no doubt be the cause of accidents that happen every day on the motorways pushing up car insurance premiums for all of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 07:48 AM

""Well you can't legislate for every circumstance, such as cars pulling trailers up long hills, those b*ast*ard caravans""

There's that egregious crap about caravans again, from somebody who hasn't noticed that it isn't 1950 any more, and there aren't any ten horsepower cars either.

My Rover will comfortably pull my van uphill and down at a steady sixty on any motorway in the country, and so will any modern car over 1600cc.

We are to be found on the left and middle lane of motorways, which always leaves one lane free for the speed maniac sales rep to use.

Even on country lanes UI don't reckon to hold anyone up, usually driving at my legal limit of fifty and handling corners very much better than the a***hole in cars I constantly meet, coming round bends with two wheels on my side of the road.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:01 AM

Well, Dick lets off full steam again but none of his points seem connected to what I said. As for clueless, the vast bulk of my mileage is done on motorways and, so far, it's been incident-free (and I'm no spring chicken). Well I did get done once for doing 60 in one of those 50 mph average-speed doodahs in their early days, but I did enjoy the speed awareness course... :-) And Don, my aversion to caravans probably arises from the fact that I live just off the A39, not known hereabouts for its long straight bits. We have lovely camp-sites, cottages, B&Bs and hotels round here and you can actually buy food and booze here as well!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:51 AM

Well, although, up to quite recently, I was doing seventy thousand miles per year, mainly on motorways (without incident of any kind I might add), I obviously bow you your vast experience of your 50mph dashes from one junction to the next (no doubt stopping somewhere on the hard shoulder for a picnic on your way.)

Now, let me tell you something about motorways. Most motorway drivers are actually working, that is, driving for a living. We know how to use a motorway properly. Tacographs do not restrict the speed of HGV's, they merely record the movements speed etc. 50mph or 56mph? Well, it may not make much difference to you, but to an HGV driver it is of real consequence, it could make the difference of getting his load delivered or not. Six hour at six miles per hour is thirty six miles! It takes an HGV a relatively long time and much fuel to accelerate from 50 to 56 mph. Some twat driving in the inside lane at 50mph means that he has to either slow down or overtake. This obviously results in the middle lane being chocked with HGV's – not a particularly good thing for road safety, and all because some self-important twat who does not know how to drive properly think he will show the world how to do it.

Motorway speeds, although astronomic to people who are used to their Sunday drive around the parish in their Austin Ruby, are quite safe. The relative speed between vehicles is quite slow as they are all travelling in the same direction, and even if the driver in front has to brake, providing you have left a sensible distance between yourself and the driver in front there is plenty of braking time because you are not approaching a stationary object,   the car in front is moving forward whilst slowing down. The biggest problem is lack of awareness of a road blockage ahead, or drivers 'undertaking'.

And, for your information, there are plenty of countries that operate a motorway minimum speed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM

""We have lovely camp-sites, cottages, B&Bs and hotels round here and you can actually buy food and booze here as well!""

And that is relevant because...........?

Steve, every post from you displays an arrogant belief in your absolute right to travel wherever you wish unimpeded by other road users.

Road users who have paid the same Road fund licence (or even more, depending on the vehicle) as you, the same fuel tax as you, hold the same licence to drive as you and have the same right to use the roads whenever and wherever they choose.

So just what is it that you feel is so special about you and your needs that it renders you more worthy of consideration than the rest of the community.

A speed limit does exactly what it says on the can. It is not an instruction to drive at the posted speed, but rather an instruction not to exceed it, so if the guy in front is doing ten mph below the limit, he is perfectly entitled so to do and you'll just have to either learn some patience, or fume and fret youself into an early grave. Get over it!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 10:12 AM

more rubbish from steve and silas, dangerous driving is breaking speed limits on motorways and tailgating and driving too close to other vehicles, it is not a new driver[who is not a twat], we were all new drivers once, or a newly passed driver with an instructor, driving within the speed limit on the inside lane, Iam no interested in loory drivers who put profit before human life, that is not an excuse for breaking the speed limit and possibly killing someone
50 mph is a sensible speed for a newly passed driver on an inside lane, because they are unfamiliar with motorways, i was not suggesting 40 or 30 .
There is only one piece of evidence on this thread that accidents on motorways are caused by newly passed drivers, AND NONE OF THE OTHER CONTRIBUTORS to this thread have said that they have had an accident with a newly passed driver.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM

GSS - you are an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 11:17 AM

There is a tradition in Cheshire that newly passed learners go out to Delamere Forest, and wrap their cars around one of the trees (usually fatally) to celebrate. Makes the M56 a lot safer. The only near miss I've had recently was coming North on the M6 when passing a 3.5 tonner with Hungarian plates just before Junction 15. As we were alongside him, he started to dift over, and all 3 lanes were occupied. I reckon his choice of vehicle was dictated by the fact that he didn't need a tacho, and had probably driven non-stop from Budapest, with predictable results!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 12:35 PM

Speed is not in itself dangerous. Dangerous driving is when your driving puts yourself or other road users in danger.

I completely fail to see just what a learner driver will gain from travelling at 50mph in the inside lane of a motorway, apart from a pair of brown underpants. He will certainly not get any motorway driving experience and he could very well be endangering the lives of other road users.

His driving will enforce a speed limit on the inside lane of 50mph, a speed limit of 56 mph in the middle lane and massive congestion on the outside lane. Well done – what a bloody good idea! And what a massive step forward in road safety!

It is sheer idiocy like this that will cause major accidents – so just think a little before spouting such nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 01:20 PM

The worst stuff I see on the M25 is when an HGV going at about 2 mph faster than an HGV in the iside lane decides to overtake, thus reducing the road to one lane for miles. And I've seen it more than once.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM

Oh no, Penny, I disagree... 0.001mph is the norm!!

;o)

When I was a young driver, the motorways had a 'slow lane', a 'fast lane' and an 'overtaking lane', but that was fairly quickly changed to a driving lane with two overtaking lanes - but 'middle lane hogs' do not seem to understand the danger they cause. An HGV is not allowed to use the third lane (of three), and can be held up by the moron who is doing 50 in the middle lane - unless they break the law and overtake on the inside.


As for the other tirade about young drivers and their safety record, it's the insurance companies who offer the statistics to back it up.

Oh, and Dick, care to argue about RoSPA's statistics? I'm fairly sure they know what they are talking about!

Yes, my write-off (caused by a young, inexperienced and possibly cocky) young driver may well have been one isolated incident, but I'm sure you'll agree it was one incident too many?!! I've been a fully qualified driver since June 1967, so I've had plenty of opportunities to witness the idiots on our roads, and how they behave.

The comment I made about yesterday's incident on the M60 (which made the national press and TV news) was referring to the other 'sub-argument' about the possible need for trailer towing training and testing that crept into this thread (okay, it was me, I admit it!!). I don't recall making any reference (actual or implied) to young drivers and towing trailers...

The trailer (a horse box intended for one horse and towed by a 4x4) overturned on the M60 and was reported to have been carrying at least 25 sheep... many of which perished quite horribly.

Silas quite correctly pointed out that speed is not in itself dangerous, but it can be a contributory factor. Driving too slow for the conditions is just as dangerous as driving too fast, if not more so. You have to learn to adapt your driving to the conditions around you, and the 56mph governor on HGVs is more aimed at fuel economy than road safety!!

The same is true of the 60mph National Speed Limit on single-carriageway roads, which was introduced as an economy measure at the time when we were all issued with fuel rationing tokens! We never had occasion to use the fuel tokens (I still have mine somewhere), and the speed limit wasn't lifted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 02:31 PM

Good posts there, Silas. Even the one about Dick The Crawler. Don, as for your caravan, you don't pay extra road tax on it yet you take up about three times as much road space as I do. Your fuel consumption rockets so you're polluting the atmosphere, and the vehicle you have to possess with enough balls to pull the damn thing will no doubt continue to guzzle gas for the 50 weeks your caravan is not used. And I sincerely hope that you're not one of those abysmal types who keeps his caravan in his front garden to gracefully decorate the whole street for 50 weeks. If not you, well, thousands of your ilk certainly do! And oh my God, those uphill bits on the North Devon Link Road...your only chance to get past the convoy...then a bloody caravan pulls out in front of you...damn, another six miles to crawl... You're a luvly feller Don, but on this at least we must virulently part company. Now don't get me started on dog-owners...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 05:20 PM

50 miles an hour is quite fast enough. No human being ever travelled anywhere near as fast as that until the 19th century. If you want to go faster than that, go by train.

I never understand it when people conplain that speeding fines are used as a way for collecting revenue. If that were true, which it isn't, it would be a great idea - a completely voluntary tax.

Going on a motorway until you have had a fair amount of experience driving doesn't make any sense. A supplementary driving test in motorway driving before you were allowed to do it freely would make a lot of sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 06:17 PM

""Your fuel consumption rockets so you're polluting the atmosphere, and the vehicle you have to possess with enough balls to pull the damn thing will no doubt continue to guzzle gas for the 50 weeks your caravan is not used.""

Care to post the evidence upon which you claim knowledge of my driving habits, my vehicle, its fuel consumption and how often I use it?

NO?.........I rather thought not.

Would you like to compare yours with mine, to ascertain just what an ass you are making of yourself?

NO?.........What a surprise.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 06:27 PM

Silas quite correctly pointed out that speed is not in itself dangerous.
more rubbish. speeding, and breaking speed limits is dangerous, so is tailgating.steve shaw for god sake grow up, what is this rubbish about dick the crawler, i passed my test in 1968. I AM NOT SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST PASSED THEIR TEST so comments about how I drive [of which none of you have any idea] are not relevant
I was suggesting that a good way for a driver who has just passed their test to get experience on a motorway, was to drive between one set of junctions at 50 mph on the inside lane.
I do not see how the ABOVE constitutes dangerous driving, my objection to the plan and the topic of the thread , is based on the notion that this is something that is not necessary, I do not think that learner drivers gaining experience is a bad idea, but I am very sure , that the majority of motorway accidents are not caused by drivers that have just passed their test.
all of us were drivers who once had only just passed our test, there appears to be only one person on this thread [Bernard Cromarty] who has had an accident with a newly passed driver, the whole idea while harmless is going to do very little to reduce accidents on motorways.
the idiots on this thread are those that do not recognise that the majority of dangerous driving on motorways is caused, not by newly passed drivers, but by tailgaters, and lorry drivers pulling out to overtake other lorry drivers as described earlier, and people driving faster than the motorway speed limit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 07:13 PM

God, Dick, you've really lost it this time.

Now Don, are you honestly telling me that your car does not increase its fuel consumption very considerably when you're tugging your caravan? Pray tell me what miracle vehicle this is, cos I want one NOW!

Since you ask, I have a Ford Focus 1.6 diesel that gets me over 50 to the gallon on motorways and not much under that around town. Believe it or not, that is one of the most fuel-hungry cars I've ever had (hey, Dick, I passed MY test in '68 too!) Of course, I never tug a caravan with it. Now Don, what do you have, and what does it do when you're hauling your little mobile home round the country? Huh? Naturally, I assume you own two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:20 PM

50 miles an hour is quite fast enough. No human being ever travelled anywhere near as fast as that until the 19th century.

Yep. And we didn't have antibiotics, we thought that lead could be turned into gold and about three in every five babies died before their first birthday. Gosh, they were the good old days!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: scouse
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM

The quicker England get's learner driver's on the motorways the better they've been doing it over here in the Netherlands for years and by an large you get a much better rounded driver when they come to take their test.
As Aye,
Phil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 04:13 AM

I repeat, most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph.
they are caused by drivers driving too fast, not allowing correct braking distances[ the recent motorway accident in the west country is just one example]and by heavy goods drivers and others[mainly experienced] overtaking in inappropriate places.
Steve get real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM

We need to take learner's on motorways just to demonstrate the idiocy of those middle-lane sitters who drive with their heads up their arses and their brains in reverse. They are complete tossers. I undertake the morons and give them a cheery wave.

Rant over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM

One problem is older drivers who passed their test in the 70s or earlier, and don't realise that driving conditions (and the Highway Code) have changed condiderably since then. An elderly friend of mine was pulled in a few years ago and advised by the police that he shouldn't negotiate a roundabout like that nowadays as the recommended way was completely different, and I don't know how many roundabouts there are in Ireland but I've never seen a Dub negotiate them properly, even the long-time UK residents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM

I repeat, most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph

Let's put this to bed once and for all. Dick, you are absolutely right: most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph. But, Dick (sorry, two body parts in overly close juxtaposition there), here's the rub (and that doesn't help either). Please absorb: the reason most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph is that drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph are in a very tiny minority. I would even go so far as to say that, even if every driver who has just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph caused an accident first time out they would still not be the cause of most motorway accidents. Reason? Why, there are far too few of them! In fact, there are so few that it would probably be futile even to contemplate doing a realistic statistical analysis which attempts to demonstrate that, pro rata, fewer accidents on motorways are caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph than by all other motorway drivers combined. Unless you know different, of course, and can provide some hard numbers. Beware of that fraught little word "caused", by the way...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:07 AM

Re. the earlier comment about there being very few motorways in Ireland.

There are actually 18 (12 in the Republic and 3 in the North).


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:08 AM

Sorry - typo - should read 6 in the North.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:10 AM

""Of course, I never tug a caravan with it. Now Don, what do you have, and what does it do when you're hauling your little mobile home round the country? Huh? Naturally, I assume you own two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?""

O.K. mate!

""Two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?""

WRONG ON ALL COUNTS! Well done!........One Rover 75 2000cc diesel (unchipped), which does 46mph on motorways and 42mph overall if you drive in town a lot (which I do not). Pulling the caravan on motorways at 60mph (the legal limit) 35mpg using the Rover's amazingly economical cruise control. Having a fully functioning brain I plan my trips to maximise motorway use and avoid towns like the plague, rarely using ordinary roads for more than about ten to twenty miles on a two hundred mile trip.

No behemoth, and no elastic bands I'm afraid, and BTW, the caravan is used at least 20 times during the year, mostly weekends with perhaps one or two longer trips.

Your insulting and patronising attitude displays your total lack of comprehension of towing caravans, which is not surprising, since you are only interested in having slower traffic get out of your way.

And I'm still waiting for the answer to my question:...."So just what is it that you feel is so special about you and your needs that it renders you more worthy of consideration than the rest of the community?"

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

exactly, Don, this bloke is a patronising and insulting toad of toad hall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:27 AM

""I repeat, most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test""

Leaving aside the question of accidents which encompass a number of groups including HGVs, car delivery drivers, white van men, and occasionally new drivers, from experience both leisure and professional, the unchallenged champions of disgracefully bad driving are the sales reps who consider their work to be more important than the lives of those who share their driving environment.

Overtaking, tailgating, undertaking and cutting across three or even four lanes for a last split second exit over the junction cross hatching, and all this at between eighty and ninety mph. Or joining the motorway at eighty and carving across to the fast lane, oblivious of the massive blind spot caused by the jacket hanging from a hook over the offside rear door. They have no limit on driving hours and must supply a sizeable proportion of the numbers of sleepers who hit the barriers.

Dick is dead right about the major causes of accidents.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:33 AM

Getting back on topic, I don't favour the idea of learners on Motorways.

I would however be very much in favour of a required six hour course after the test and before the granting of a full licence.

The course would be with an ADI registered instructor who would have to sign off on a satisfactory result, and would include 2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 11:38 AM

This report from the UK Institute of Advanced Motorists is well worth reading re. the cause of road traffic accidents.

Licensed to Skill: Contributory Factors in Road Accidents

Section 3.1 of the report specifically covers motorway accidents and the main primary causes given were:

Failed to look properly - 25.2%
Failed to judge other person's path or speed - 24.7%
Loss of control - 21.5%
Following too close - 16.4%
Sudden braking - 12.2%
Travelling too fast for conditions - 11.4%
Poor turn or manoeuvre - 10.8%
Driver/ rider careless, reckless or in a hurry - 9.6%
Slippery road (due to weather) - 8.9%
Swerved - 8.4%


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:02 PM

2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling.

Don T.



Haa haaah. Brilliant!!!!

So, no tests in the sunmmer then as it is not dark enough, and you cant live in most of wales or east anglia or scotland ...need i go on?


The stupiodity of people on this list never fails to amaze and delight me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:08 PM

well Silas, you and your friend from Toad Hall are the most stupid. guest grumpy Geoff
provided this list, none of these accidents are attributed to newly passed drivers, Silas sounds like you were a sales rep, well you are someone who judging from your posts here and your attitudes to other drivers, should not be driving at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:06 PM

My name's Tom, GSS. You can find me here - http://www.myspace.com/grumpyoldguitarists.

The report I cited didn't cover the qualifications of the drivers involved in the accidents, so it's pointless to extrapolate about their abilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:30 PM

Calm down, Don! I didn't actually assert anything at all in my post. I simply requested information! Here's what I said: Now Don, what do you have, and what does it do when you're hauling your little mobile home round the country? Huh? Naturally, I assume you own two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?

Here's another enquiry (feel free to respond, not respond, or simply have another rant!) - you said: Pulling the caravan on motorways at 60mph (the legal limit) 35mpg using the Rover's amazingly economical cruise control.

Well 35mpg is a bit naff these days anyway, Don, not exactement environmentally-friendly, but even so you are hardly giving us the full yarn here. A nice, steady speed on a road with only gentle gradients with your cruise control on gets you 35mpg. Now I assume you don't spend your caravan hols in motorway service area car parks, therefore you will be driving considerable distances, I assume, on twistier roads, accelerating and decelerating, lugging up long and short and steep and not-so-steep hills, stopping and starting, slowing for roundabouts and speeding up again, getting stuck behind milk tankers on big hills, forever ramming it into third... bet that lot eats into your 35mpg somewhat! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:33 PM

so in fact your statistics are not relevant, since they are not connected to drivers who have just passed their test.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 04:08 PM

Or do you mean "not connected to drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:03 PM

oh the man with the iron gob or the gob iron, welcome back Mr Toad.
have you learned the tune the learner driver yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM

""So, no tests in the sunmmer then as it is not dark enough, and you cant live in most of wales or east anglia or scotland ...need i go on?""

Thank you for your ignorant, insulting, response.

I said "INSTRUCTION", not test, and there are plenty of driving instructors who are willing to supply a couple of one hour sessions in the darkness, even in mid summer.

You are correct in one respect though. The level of stupidity, bad manners and ignorance does rise when you are around.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:33 AM

""I assume, on twistier roads, accelerating and decelerating, lugging up long and short and steep and not-so-steep hills, stopping and starting, slowing for roundabouts and speeding up again, getting stuck behind milk tankers on big hills, forever ramming it into third... bet that lot eats into your 35mpg somewhat! :-)""

I believe I have already covered that point, but just to add a little extra, on my last trip to Wales (Maidstone Kent to Anglesea), I was able to average approx 33 mpg, and on that trip, as you may or may not know, there is a considerable stretch of just such roads.

As for constantly banging it into gear, I don't know how much you abuse your car, but the impression you give isn't particularly good. Mine is an automatic and the cruise control gives pretty seamless changes and minimum throttle.

Now I know its a waste of time, arguing about caravans with a (rather less intelligent) Jeremy Clarkson clone, so if you've anything sensible to say on topic, I might respond.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:58 AM

Hello Don

You may or may not be aware that it does not properly dark till well after 10.00pm in the middle of an English summer. I don't know of many driving instrctors that would be prepared to give instruction at this time of night. And what about having to drive eighty miles just to get on a motorway for instruction?

BTW Iam not and have never been a sales rep, but I find it absoloutly amazing that you ae able to tell a drivers profession just from the fact that he has a jacket hanging in the back of his car.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 10:09 AM

Well you would find it amazing since you are looking for any reason to have a go.

However, that jacket hanging across a window and effectively tripling the rearward blind spot has been almost a trademark of the breed for over 40 years. It's done so that they meet prospective clients with their jacket in pristine, uncreased condition. Image is everything you know, even coming ahead of safety. There are of course other distinguishing marks such as the models of car they have gravitated to over the years.

I'm amazed that you apparently haven't noticed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 10:46 AM

Hello Don.

Well, the thing is, you see, the car manufacturers seem to place the 'coat hook' in most cars in the same place - just above the rear windows, so I would imagine that it is a bit difficult if you want to hang your jacket anywhere else. As for 'blind spot', is it any worse than any van without rear side windows?

Funnily enough, I don't assume just because someone is driving a particular model of car that they are a sales rep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:21 AM

"As for 'blind spot', is it any worse than any van without rear side windows?"

In my experience, most vans have larger side mirrors to compensate. Additionally, larger vehicles will have a notice warning other drivers of their blind spots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:34 AM

Well larger vehicles possibly, but a car derived van, as many are, have the same size mirrors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:46 AM

Maybe I've just been lucky! Back in the 71s when I first passed my test, i was advised not to use my wing-mirrors as you had to be able to drive with just the interior mirror, and I still see lots of drivers doing that. When I later upgraded my automatic license to manuel (I only had access to an automatic in the 70s) I was advised to use everything available, and then, before I could drive for Royal Mail, I had a bit more training and testing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:49 AM

Lucky in that all the vans I've driven (80cf upwards) have been well-endowed mirror-wise, but it's the first thing I noticed on an Escort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:37 PM

There are some awful and inconsiderate caravan drivers. Don, John Barden, Brian Rodgers, and I (to name some folkies about whose driving I DO know) are not among them. We press on but not excessively. My Volvos (either of the turbos or the twin cam) will tug most things without effort and John's Mondeo (V6 if my memory serves me) ditto. Don and Brian both use the very capable Rover with the BMW diesel turbo lump, Brian's being chipped and more than capable of holding over 80 where permitted on the continent with a large van on the back.   

I do however get very vexed with some loonies who stick up my chuff when I am (a) doing about 5 over a local limit because I don't want to hold traffic up and (b) in fact also being held up by someone going shopping.

Anyone with more than half a brain should make extra room for horse boxes - the horses do not like lateral G nor indeed braking forces.

Anyone should be able to drive and know what is behind them with either or both of wing mirrors or internal rear view mirror.   

Apart from his ignorance about caravans, Steve makes a lot of sense. Silas overlooks the many reps who are trying to cover too many miles and may arrive dead on time, and may well be overtired/overstressed by deadlines/inattentive - or just dozing off on the motorway through boredom. Other than that he makes a lot of sense.

Dick plainly has no idea, as is demonstrated by his confusing a tachometer and a speed limiter.


I am constantly amazed by the motorway idiots who sit as close as three feet to another car. Often I am the ONLY vehicle within visual range observing the "two chevron" rule. I am constantly amazed by the idiots who don't know the basic rule - keep left except when overtaking (or positioning to do so). As for the middle lane owners club, I'd just LOVE a heavy machine gun, particularly when I have the van on and am therefore prohibited from overtaking on what is the only legal side (save when in a two or more lane queue of traffic). Overtaking on the inside is dangerous - first it is illegal and therefore it is not expected. So the risk of the slower vehicle pulling in is considerable. Sure he should be looking - but the very fact that he has not moved over in alarm at the sight of your purple eyeballs ten feet from his rear-view mirror almost proves he is not looking. Ignoring that does not make you a good candidate for life insurance.

Then there are the twats who think they are entitled to enter the left hand lane from the slip road. They should never force another vehicle to brake by emerging from the slip road.   But I've had dozens who seem to know nothing about "speed matching" pull out in front of me when I cannot pull out because there is someone coming up on my outside, so forcing me to brake - whether or not I have the van on.

So some sort of motorway education is pretty important. I can see considerable merit in a two stage test, with the motorway test coming AFTER passing the basic test, and those preparing for the second stage allowed on motorways ONLY with a qualified instructor in a dual control car. There is something similar for motorbikes in that there are capacity thresholds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 02:15 PM

I've been absolutely terrified by tailgaters on the motorway. You're doing 70mph, and some person is a yard from your rear bumper. I've also been scared when in between two huge container lorries. They change lanes as if I'm not there, and I've nearly become the meat in a sandwich a few times! Nowadays I stay in lovely Norfolk, but anyone starting their driving career needs strategies for dealing with these things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

part from his ignorance about caravans, Steve makes a lot of sense. Silas overlooks the many reps who are trying to cover too many miles and may arrive dead on time, and may well be overtired/overstressed by deadlines/inattentive - or just dozing off on the motorway through boredom. Other than that he makes a lot of sense.

Dick plainly has no idea, as is demonstrated by his confusing a tachometer and a speed limiter.
Richard bBridge, if i have no idea
why are you agreeing with me here;



"I am constantly amazed by the motorway idiots who sit as close as three feet to another car. Often I am the ONLY vehicle within visual range observing the "two chevron" rule."
YOU SHOULD READ MY POSTS PROPERLY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: HuwG
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:32 PM

With regard to Silas, the Vauxhall Cavalier in the late 1980's and early 1990's, and to a lesser extent the Skoda Octavia a decade later, were often derided as "Repmobiles".

May I mention here one of my favourite gripes, the fault of manufacturers rather than drivers? It is the common colour scheme used by some of them to give an impression of up-market chic, namely the narrow variations of greyish-silver or silvery-grey. In rainy weather with lots of spray, this colour scheme allows such cars to proceed in true stealth mode, if they forget or omit to put on side lights.

In a cloud burst on the M60 (the Manchester outer ring road) a few weeks ago, with the roads like glass, I looked in my rear-view mirror, signalled to take the A6144 (the Carrington spur), and moved left into the turn-off lane. The next thing I knew, my mirrors were full of big silver 4x4 (which may have been a Mitusubishi Pajero), which had appeared out of nowhere.

Now, the 4x4 driver had not had his (or her) lights on, had been travelling at a speed (at least 75mph) which verged on reckless in the conditions and may have been attempting to use the Carrington spur lane as an undertaking lane, all of which would have added up to a lot of points on his (or her) license had he (or she) gone to court, but would have been cold comfort to me had I been punted up the rear and sent spinning into the armco or into the path of other traffic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:44 PM

Faulty lights are a great annoyance, especially all these modern cars that don't have any indicators fitted... or so it would seem!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

Oh, and it's a moving traffic offence not to drive on dipped headlights when it's raining... surprising how many people don't know that - and so is driving with foglights when there's no fog...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:34 PM

It's a bit hard to follow the two-chevron rule when 99.9% of motorways (I stand to have my statistics corrected) are not marked with chevrons.

We all want to be out there on the roads without restriction in spite of the sheer inability of the roads to cope, at times, with the volume of traffic. It is actually economically important to the nation to keep the roads a-flowing. So let's look at the categories of vehicles that move slowly, hinder the flow and which do not really contribute to the greater good of the UK economy. Agricultural vehicles on trunk roads (no doubt illegally using red diesel in many cases): ban 'em. Same with bloody horse boxes. It's cruelty to animals, no more, no less. Caravan pullers: make the buggers travel during the night only (and tax the hell out of any of 'em who park their ugly monstrosities outside their houses for all to see). And why should caravans not be liable to road tax? That's just outrageous. Dammit all, these eejits don't even have to insure the bloody things if they don't want to! Oldies: retest 'em at frequent intervals. Well, everybody, really. Hows about a pretty expensive five-yearly test to make sure that you are still competent, have improved your skills and are acutely aware of the presence of other road-users and know how to treat them with due consideration?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:37 PM

That guest is me, Steve Shaw, on the wrong computer. Let us cope...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:47 AM

It's a bit hard to follow the two-chevron rule ....

I was in a Daewoo Matiz when we saw a road sign giving the instruction to stay two chevrons apart. Had a hell of time trying to keep up with a Ferrari.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:11 AM

"It's a bit hard to follow the two-chevron rule"

No problem, if you're driving sensibly anyway. Which reminds me. I was driving back from Widnes a few Sundays ago, and it was a bit foggy. The visibilty crossing the Mersey was down to a few hundred yards each way. Then I joined the M56 at Frodsham and the visibilty dropped, so that slowing to less than 60, I knew I was far enough behind the vehicle in front if I could just see the lights through the fog. The worrying thing of course was all the cars, mainly grey, flying past with no lights! Talking about being in a hurry to get to your own funeral!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM

Steve, if you can't find a cookie when you need one, I am inclined to doubt your other technical know-how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:17 AM

I was driving in thick fog the other week, and I could barely make out some flashing lights on the overhead gantry... as I got nearer, I could just make out the word 'Fog'... good job, otherwise I wouldn't have realised why I couldn't see!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 11:30 AM

This thread makes uk.rec.driving look polite!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 02:46 PM

One of the best guides as to which drivers are the worst is the insurance industry. As I understand it, the more costly your insurance, the more dangerous you're likely to be. On this basis, young men up to the age of about 25 are the most dodgy, and old ladies like me quite safe in comparison. My insurance is so low, they almost pay me to drive my little Fiesta. This is only a general, rough guide, as obviously some high insurances are due to the expensive and powerful vehicles driven. My point is, that the young lads are the ones who should have a watchful eye kept on them, and maybe a second test/assessment made after one year, say. Statistically, us oldies don't cause the most accidents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:23 PM

god points Eliza, it is good to see someone making a statement that is backed up stats. unlike some of the other people on this thread


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:56 PM

Well, Richard, I admit to being a technical numptie though I don't see what that has to do with this thread (are you a bitter caravan lugger?) Anyway, I'm still on the wrong computer but I fully expect my name to be appended to this post.


And Dick, where were your statistics apropos of those newly-qualified drivers driving at 50 on the inside lane between two junctions not causing accidents?

Eliza, while I take your point about oldies being statistically safer, there is the issue of older, slower and nervous drivers causing frustration among those who (foolishly, maybe, but they are obstinately there) need to get a move on. The idea of occasional retesting for all would be to ensure that everyone is competent and confident on ever-changing and increasingly-challenging roads - more and more crowded, more complicated junctions, more motorway-type bypass roads with very frequent requirements to adjust speeds and get in the right lanes in good time at high speed, etc. There are still people on the roads today who never had to negotiate roundabouts on their driving tests or during their driving tuition, and many more still who never had to negotiate mini-roundabouts, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:05 PM

Talking of mini-roundabouts, I witnessed a young driver a few weeks ago who saw fit to overtake a line of traffic, go the wrong way round a mini-roundabout AND pass the traffic island beyond on the wrong side whilst doing at least 40mph in a 30mph zone...

He was very lucky nobody was coming the other way, or out of the blind junction to the right.

This is by no means an isolated incident, albeit probably the worst example - people seem to think mini-roundabouts are there to be ignored!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:31 PM

Wow Bernard! At LEAST 40? Are you sure he wasn't a neutrino on the way to Italy? You sound like the commentators on some of the UK police driver programmes, waxing apoplectic about remarkably skilful driving of some fleeing miscreant. Some of the pursued are twerps, but sometimes you see some bloke who you think might have been another Lewis Hamilton with the right chance - and the commentators don't seem to be able to tell the difference.

Steve - I've been a petrol head since a while before the first TVR Tuscan V8SE was the king of the UK roads, driving (on private land) since I was 13. I know within inches how fast any of my 3 much loved Volvos is - with or without the van on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:01 PM

""Eliza, while I take your point about oldies being statistically safer, there is the issue of older, slower and nervous drivers causing frustration among those who (foolishly, maybe, but they are obstinately there) need to get a move on.""

I would be rather more inclined to suggest that re-testing is indicated for those drivers who are so arrogant and self obsessed that if the rest of the world doesn't leap aside at their approach, they proceed to do something incredibly stupid and dangerous, and when it all goes pear shaped they blame the driver who was driving safely.

Recognise anyone in that description Steve?

Take that attitude into an Institute of Advanced Motoring course, and you are guaranteed to fail.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 03:13 AM

A driver who is impeding others, and who can avoid that effect without impeding himself or increasing the risk to himself, should avoid that effect.

On the other hand, I had a discussion the other day with another driver who objected to the fact that I left space behind a driver in front of me who was in a queue of traffic doing 20. Mr Pushy, hand on horn, as soon as there were two lanes (I was then in the right hand lane waiting my turn to go past a dustcart in the left) approaching Rochester Bridge Eastwards, pinged past on my inside, went past the rest of the queue, swung right behind the dustcart forcing a white Seat to brake, then went past three more on the inside, and back to the middle lane at the lights at the foot of Star Hill. As I pulled up alongside him for the right turn into Victoria Street he started shouting out of his window, but I reminded him of a discussion I had had when younger with a policeman in Maidstone.

I had been pushing up behind other traffic on the Loose Road, years and years ago, and had been bobbing in and out when other traffic stopped or wanted to turn right etc, and PC Plod flagged me. I told him then that I had just been trying to avoid impeding traffic - and he explained that I had put in a lot of work but passed the traffic lights where the Sutton Road leaves the Loose Road at exactly the same time. Just as Mr Pushy had done in Rochester.

Puzzled, Mr Pushy looked. But the proof was alongside him at the lights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:51 AM

This morning I was praised by a policeman /garda on my sensible driving, on the N71 to SKIBBEREEN.
yesterday there was a serious accident caused by speeding and tailgating, so the gards were out in force observing peoples driving skills/speeds. Irepeat I WAS PRAISED FOR MY SENSIBLE DRIVING. PUT THAT IN YOUR PIE AND SMOKE IT ALL YOU TOADS OF TOAD HALLS ON THIS THREAD.
Guest. DICK MILES


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:59 AM

So, you were stopped by the police just to be told that you were driving well?

Amazing.

Personally, I would prefer the police to use their time stopping peoople who wern't driving well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:26 AM

I think it is about time people realised that motorways are there for commerce, not pleasure seekers, just how some morons think they know all there is to know about motorway driving when they probably do less that 3000 miles a year on the motorways, yet a driver who spends the majority of his working life using them, and using them properly...

Well, we have all seen you dick, sitting in the middle or outside lane at exactly 70mph gripping the steering wheel till your knuckles go white and staring fixatedly on the vehicle in front, not even condsidering what the vehicle in front of the vehicle in front is doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 09:12 AM

If the obtuseness, aggression and sheer bad manners of a number of those posting to this thread is repeated in their driving (as seems to me highly likely) then I, for one, have no desire to meet them on the road (and probably not elsewhere either).

Being civilised entails obeying the agreed laws, including the ones with which you disagree. Any person has the right to assume that others will observe the rules. He would be spectacularly dumb to rely on it, of course, but has the right to protection from those who feel that they are above the law.

BTW, the motorways are there for commerce, and also for any other legitimate use, including pleasure however improbable that may be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:21 AM

silas you are a fool , you have never seen me drive,
no the police had a section of the road blocked off, there was a BAD ACCIDENT YESTERDAY CAUSED BY SOMEONE WHO WAS DRIVING TOO FAST. THE POLICEMAN COMPLIMENTED ME ON MY DRIVING , THEY WERE CLEARLY TRYING TO STOP PEOPLE BREAKING THE SPEED LIMIT.
It is called garda traffic control


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,guest dick miles
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

the above post was me


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 06:02 PM

The fact is, Don, whether we like it or not, the fast, the impatient, the arrogant and the tailgaters exist in large numbers and they are not going away any time soon. Great to get all hoity-toity about 'em, but that will change nothing. Best if everyone on the road is confident and aware, and "aware" means aware of other road users, good or bad, and let 'em get on with it, no indignant stands required. Retesting for all, says I! Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling) on to crowded roads for fun is showing arrogant disregard for other road users, akin to taking a king-sized, double-length articulated trolley into Morrisons on a Saturday afternoon. Travel by night and do us all a favour. While you're at it, tell us how you camouflage the damn thing while it's standing outside your house! By the way, while I don't regard my own driving highly, I am an extremely careful motorway driver. I always keep my distance and I use the innermost practical lane, according to conditions, at all times, and I virtually over-use my mirrors. Of course, you don't have to believe any of that. Too bad. Just done 600 motorway miles over the weekend. I have advice: do not use the bloody M6 on Fridays! Couldn't avoid it this time...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:15 PM

Dick, as much as I'd like to let everything you ever say on any topic go, preferably as far away as possible, this time I can't resist. Do apprise us of the actual words of this complimenting traffic constable. Was it your classically-correct grip of the wheel or your nifty gear-changing? Did he praise your efforts in spite of the obvious distraction of your furry dice? Was it your skilful and deft way with the windscreen wiper knob? Educate me, Dick, educate me!

By the way, I note that this heap of praise was visited on you just the day after the terrible accident, and even so soon after the event you knew exactly what the cause was. Did the gushing civic guard share that information with you, or are you a member of the accident investigation squad, or are you, er, just sayin' it, like?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:22 PM

I would be rather more inclined to suggest that re-testing is indicated for those drivers who are so arrogant and self obsessed that if the rest of the world doesn't leap aside at their approach, they proceed to do something incredibly stupid and dangerous, and when it all goes pear shaped they blame the driver who was driving safely.

Recognise anyone in that description Steve?


No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Guest Mad Driver
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:43 PM

Sounds like you, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:54 PM

Just because someone disagrees with my intemperate views about brain-dead caravan owners and over-timid drivers who have never really improved their skills over the years it doesn't make me a road-raging, tailgating, overgrown boy-racer when I'm behind the wheel, thank you very much! Tsk! Stop being silly! You're beginning to sound like that Don!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:10 PM

Why Steve, do you assert that most caravans are uninsured? Most car insurance policies cover damage to third parties caused by caravans or trailers towed by the insured car. You appear to know little about cars, and little about traffic law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:11 AM

I didn't say "most caravans were uninsured," did I? I said "often!" Canst thou read the queer old dean's English ou pas? I know it isn't illegal to not insure a caravan separately. I always pray that those I see on their sides are uninsured. And even if I'd got this snippet wrong, which I haven't, pray tell how that would have demonstrated thst I "know little about cars." No need to go off half-cock just because I happen to immoderately think that most caravan owners are arrogant, selfish, antisocial sods who don't give a toss either about other road users or the environment!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:45 AM

Well, as it appens I am also a caravanner. I also agree that some caravanners are selfish and I also get annoyed when they travel in convoy. However, as far as ecology goes, look at it this way – as I pootle along at my 50 mph or so with a line of traffic behind me unable to overtake, and nowhere for me to pull in to allow them to pass, I can take some comfort from the fact that although I may be using a little more fuel than normal, the fact the drivers behind me are forced to do 50mph instead of 60 or 70, they are saving fuel, so there is a net gain for the planet.

Isn't that great?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM

Nice one, Silas. But think of all that steam coming out of the windows of the cars behind you adding to global warming. As Dick seems to categorise you and me together, perhaps we should close ranks. I'll begin by saying that you, as a caravanner, are almost certainly the exception that proves the rule. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:14 AM

Reading through all this stuff has reminded me of a particular bit of bad driving related to the middle lane owners club which seems to have escaped notice. On a number of occasions on three lane motorways, not much traffic, I, driving appropriately in the inside lane, have come up towards a much slower vehicle. On attempting to move out, after signalling, to overtake, I find the middle lane to be occupied by another car, doing slightly more than the limit, which forces me to slow down while he goes past. And the outer lane is completely empty as far as the mirror can see.

I assume the driver is not reading the road at all.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM

And I should add, I have been using the mirror, and have usually thought the car concerned to be far enough behind, and aware enough to allow me out, which is what I would have done in the circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 08:32 PM

""The fact is, Don, whether we like it or not, the fast, the impatient, the arrogant and the tailgaters exist in large numbers and they are not going away any time soon.""

Quite true, and while every word you post indicates your assured place among their number, it ill behooves you to be dishing out lectures to others more sensible and tolerant than you are capable of being.

My caravan, for what it's worth, is stored off road as is Richard's and Brian's as far as I know. and by what God given right do you presume to tell any of us that we don't have the right to use the roads in any legal manner we see fit?

I have held a full motor cycle licence since 1959, a full car licence since 1961, and an Institute of Advanced Motoring Certification since 1965. I also held a full double decker Public Service Vehicle licence between 1976 and 1983 and a Dartford Hackney Carriage Licence between 1983 and 1992.

I have no convictions of any description during my driving career, and only two accidents (one when an uninsured driver ran into me as I stopped for traffic on a roundabout, and the other when I was parked in a marked parking bay). Come to think of it, either might have been you, or some other arrogant sod with an almighty ego and a sense of entitlement to match.

My mileage since my motorcyle test is well in excess of two million. Enough! I'm done with you so kindly go screw yourself.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

It's amusing to read that, because I disapprove of caravans, I must be an impatient, arrogant, intolerant, tailgating, road-raging boy racer. Now I know how Richard Dawkins must feel. And nowhere have I suggested that you don't have the right to use the roads in any legal manner you see fit. I'm just moaning about your right, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 06:54 AM

Dearie me! So many raw nerves!!

...and relax!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 08:42 AM

Yeah, ironic in a way that those who ostensibly advocate a calmer approach to driving - Mad Driver, Dick and Don - are exactly the guys who now appear to be exhibiting a form of cyber-road rage! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

""Mad Driver, Dick and Don - are exactly the guys who now appear to be exhibiting a form of cyber-road rage! :-)""

The difference is, in case you need it explained, that we confine our irritation at the ignorant mumblings of an arrogant twerp to a time and a place when we are not behind the wheel of a potentially lethal weapon.

Hardly road rage then.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:39 AM

Come off it Don, you ave said some pretty stupid things on this thread and if ou poke your head over the parapet, then you can expect people to shoot at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM

""Come off it Don, you ave said some pretty stupid things on this thread""

Put your money where you mouth is and point 'em out, along with your reasons for considering them stupid.

Otherwise butt out.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:04 AM

Oh cone ON, be reasonable, I don'thave time to list 'em ALL! But most of your posts have a daft line or two in them if you have a look.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:10 AM

I thought so!

Just twelve posts to sort through, and it's not worth the effort. Oh well, it's your ball in your court and if you can't be arsed to run with it........

Fine by me, until you post proof your assertions are also worthless.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:29 AM

OK Don, here you go.


"However, that jacket hanging across a window and effectively tripling the rearward blind spot has been almost a trademark of the breed for over 40 years. It's done so that they meet prospective clients with their jacket in pristine, uncreased condition. Image is everything you know, even coming ahead of safety. There are of course other distinguishing marks such as the models of car they have gravitated to over the years."

I thing generalising about a particular trade or profession like this is a bit daft. I am sure there are reps that drive irresponsibly, but there will be plenty of people in other professions who do too. And not everyone driving a Vectra or Mondeo is a rep you know, some of my best friends drive these type of cars and they are not reps.


"The course would be with an ADI registered instructor who would have to sign off on a satisfactory result, and would include 2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling."

Well, totally impractical and unworkable. Not a bad idea in principle, but cannot possibly work

"the unchallenged champions of disgracefully bad driving are the sales reps who consider their work to be more important than the lives of those who share their driving environment."

Again – irrational prejudice against sales reps who, after all, are just doing their job and are amongst the most experienced of road users.

Now, if it were BMW drivers that you were having a pop at…..


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM

What about BMWs towing caravans... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 01:13 PM

just because a driver is experienced that does not mean he/she is a safe driver,sales reps may be experienced, that does not mean they do not take silly risks.you are quite right about generalising, that is why we must not generalise from one particular incident, which is what Bernrd Cromarty was doing.
the whole thread is a waste of time and merely shows how entrenched peoples opinions are, however execessive speed and tailgating and changing lanes without indicating and checking mirrors are all very dangerous habits that are not the sole prequisite of newly passed drivers on motorways.
in my experience it is not the newly passed drivers that cause most of the accidents on motorways, I can only talk from my own experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 03:13 PM

So, Dick, how come those insurance companies charge newly-passed drivers (especially young 'uns, who constitute the majority of newly-passed drivers) upward of two grand for cover, whereas they only charge irresponsible, tailgating, road-raging, arrogant, BMW-hating, Volvo estate-hating, 4x4-hating, caravan-hating speed kings like me* about two hundred and fifty? Eh? Eh?? Might I suggest that they do it because of what they know "in their experience"?



*With my clean licence and full no claims bonus, of course... Gosh, how do I get away with it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

Get out of that Steve: You can't can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:52 PM

But it's true! No road tax for caravans! No need for separate insurance for caravans, and many owners just don't bother! Unless you have a miracle vehicle, your car uses far more gas pulling the damn thing than when it isn't pulling it! It's physics, man!! What exactly am I supposed to "get out of?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:17 PM

Steve, INSURANCE COMPANIES charge on the basis of age, their charges are not based on driving abilty, they charge people up to the age of 25, higher premiums, so you can be driving six years if you passed your test when you were 18 and are 24, and pay the same as someone aged 24 who passed their test 2 days previously, your argument is nonsense, it has nothing to do with people who have just passed their test it is to do with age., admittedly people of all ages get no claim bonus based on not having an accident, but all young people pay high premiums regardless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:20 PM

Look into it more, Dick. Nothing I said about insurance was inaccurate. Sit back and try to be dispassionate, Dick, ol' bean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:52 AM

Your statement, Steve, that caravans were uninsured was untrue. Save for the very few uninsured drivers (where the industry scheme usually kicks in), and the also few twerps who don't understand the rare limitation on cover for towing, if you are hit by a caravan on the road you are covered by the driver's insurance.

And since even keen caravanners cover only a tiny fraction of their annual mileage while towing, your argument about increased fuel consumption is an irrelevance.

Likewise your argument about road tax for caravans.

You really have no figleaf for your pathological obsession against anything that might trivially delay your poop-poop-progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM

yes what you say is inaccurate, insurance companies base their charges on age and sex[drivers under 25 and male are penalised] not driving experience.
in Ireland insurance is based on size of car engine, presumably this is on the basis that powerful engines have the capacity to go faster, so it seems insurance companies are charging customers extra for having a car that has more power and can go faster, it is not illogical to conclude from this that insurance companies consider fast speeds a cause of accidents .
steve stop wasting everyones time, with this nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:00 AM

I know that you are legally covered for third parties by your car insurance. I said "no need for separate insurance for caravans," and many tuggers don't bother getting separate insurance for their caravans. If you know you're going to be tugging a van, you need a vehicle with balls, and that usually means a less all-round economical vehicle, n'est-ce pas? That you run all the year round? What about Don with his paltry 33 to the gallon on his 20 outings per annum! Bullshit, Richard. Caravan owners use fuel far more profligately that I ever would. I got shut of my old S-reg Fiesta because I couldn't afford to run a car that only did 37 to the gallon, and less on motorways! As for no road tax on caravans, that's just an outrage when you're taking up as much road space as an HGV. Keep yer heads down while you're still getting away with that one!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:02 AM

Oops, sorry about all the bold there. It should have stopped after the word separate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM

Not based on driving experience, eh, Dick? Try getting a 65% NCD if you only passed yer test yesterday! Insurance companies take all sorts of things into account (not just yer engine size). Gender, age, claims history, motoring convictions, make, model and age of car, whether you keep the thing in a garage, your mileage, who else you want driving, whether you live in inner Liverpool or Much Binding In The Marsh. What I said is true. A newly-qualified young driver could be paying two grand or more. For the same car, for me with me clean licence and full NCD, all other things equal, it's about £250, and my excess is a damn sight lower as well. Facts, Dick. Lose the emotion, old boy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM

no, its not based on driving experience , it is based on age and sex, insurance premiums are higher for under 25 male drivers regardless of whether they have just passed the test or been driving for six years, that is a fact.
next fact in Ireland, insurance premiums are higher for cars with larger engine size, regardless of whether the driver has been driving for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or six years or jut passed the test, small concessions as regards no claims are made to all drivers who have not had an accident for so many years,
Having an accident is not always reflective of a persons driving skill, but insurers work on the basis of making a profit so if they have to pay out, they penalise the customer unless he can categoricaaly prove it was the other drivers fault.
insurance companies clearly think that speed is a major cause of accidents , otherwise they would not be penalisingdrivers with powerful engines


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM

Yeah, well, more powerful engines are usually in bigger and/or more expensive cars that cost a lot more to fix when damaged. There's nothing simple in this world, Dick. Except...


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:24 AM

check mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:59 AM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

That's the quote, Steve.

Nothing about "separate" insurance. Even if there was, so what? You set out falsely to give the impression that when you were run over by a caravan you would be bereft of compensation.

And if I had no caravan I'd still be running the same three Volvos. I only use extra fuel when I tug the van to festies - maybe a thousand miles out of the fifteen thousand total per year between them.

The reason that HGVs pay more road tax is (largely anyway) they cause more road damage due to high point loadings. Caravans, which are considerably lighter than cars (in almost every case) don't.

You are simply advertising your prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 10:22 AM

I think the fuel consumption thing is a bit of a red herring. I doubt ther will be a huge difference between a car towing a van at 50mph and an unladen car at 60 mph. Plus, in my case anyway, if we are towing the van, we are usually together, that is in one car wheras we would normally be driving two cars to different locations.

Insurance - well, as Richard says, almost everyone would insure their van simply because of its replacenment cost, but i accept that some people don't, much the same way as some drivers don't insure their cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:25 PM

Here's a recent report about tailgating. Note the reference to younger drivers.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/motorway-tailgating-on-the-rise-16124578.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:30 PM

Silas, you are falling into Steve's trap - the replacement cost of the van is a matter for the owner - like comprehensive (so-called) car insurance. What almost all caravan towing people do have is insurance (for the towcar) that covers the liability to third parties should injury arise to third parties. That, naturally, is the only legitimate concern of a third party.

Incidentally, last time I checked, the cost of insuring against damage to your own caravan was mightily cheap - doubtless because caravans are not often in traffic accidents, although many more of the expensive ones are stolen even from secure storage facilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:51 PM

bystander, you are missing my point, it is this, a driver can be young , but that does not mean he has only just passed his test, for example a young driver could have been driving four years aged 22, or six years aged 24,and be quite experienced, furthermore an older person let us say hypothetically 40 or 50 could have just passed their test.
do not confuse just passed the test with young age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:44 PM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

That's the quote, Steve.

Nothing about "separate" insurance. Even if there was, so what? You set out falsely to give the impression that when you were run over by a caravan you would be bereft of compensation.


What rubbish, Richard. I have never set out to give the impression that uninsured caravans are illegal. Read up the thread, way before I posted the bit you quote, where I said: Dammit all, these eejits don't even have to insure the bloody things if they don't want to! which clearly demonstrates that I know that insurance for caravans is optional and separate from the mandatory insuring of cars, and it demonstrates that I've never tried to to imply otherwise. Why would I be stupid enough to do that in a thread full of evangelical caravanners! Cherry-picking someone's posts in order to demonise them is a rather nasty trait, Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:31 PM

""Cherry-picking someone's posts in order to demonise them is a rather nasty trait, Richard.""

Maybe, but nowhere near as nasty as denigrating somebody because their income won't run to hotel rooms or even boarding houses, meaning no caravan = no holidays.

Doubtless you are alright Jack, so it's OK in your book to demand that we stay out of your way.

Well dream on pal, it ain't going to happen.

I have the same rights to a decent life that you have, having paid my dues with fifty years continuous employment.

Learn to live with it.

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:51 PM

Holidays? You said you were out with it 20 times a year if I remember rightly. We can hardly afford holidays ourselves these days (though I do live in Cornwall, so I won't push that one). Incidentally, I haven't demanded anything of the sort. I'm on this thread to have a good moan about those ugly, sluggish, environmentally-unfriendly caravans bunging up the roads every summer, but I wouldn't dream of "demanding" that your freedoms be curtailed. Do enjoy your decent life squatting around in soggy fields full of fellow-luggers. I'm sure you all have lots to talk about, one-upmanship about the size of your sinks, etc.


What happened to this, by the way? Enough! I'm done with you so kindly go screw yourself. [Don, a few short days ago] Am I so irresistible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 11:14 PM

"I have never set out to give the impression that uninsured caravans are illegal. "

That's a silly Aunt Sally, Steve.

You set out falsely to give the impression that if and when you were run over by a caravan you would be bereft of compensation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:04 AM

You don't know what "Aunt Sally" means. Richard. Look that one up. If you can find where I even mentioned being run over by a caravan, let alone moaned about prospective lack of compensation, let's have it! And try to remember that repeating a false assertion over and over again will not make it true! You didn't look far enough up the thread to see where I made it clear that I acknowledged that caravans don't have to be insured. Inconvenient that it doesn't fit your apparent demonising agenda! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-aun1.htm

You said "Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)".

Your obvious attempt at meaning was to imply that others were put at risk by the absence of insurance. It's an obvious attempt to conflate "uninsured caravan" with "uninsured driver".

You can't un-say it Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:46 AM

Just stop being such a dumbo, Richard. A long time before that quote, which I am more than happy to leave not unsaid, I typed Dammit all, these eejits don't even have to insure the bloody things if they don't want to! Now why would I say that if I wanted to imply that caravans without insurance were illegal and that we were all at risk of being mown down without compensation (none of which I even alluded to, let alone actually mentioned!!)? And why on earth would I want to imply that, knowing it was false, in a thread full of angry caravanners who would shoot me down for saying it as soon as look at me!! You're up shit creek sans paddle here, Richard! Your own obvious intent is to flog this already-dead horse to pulp, and you're making a complete ass of yourself to boot. I know what I said, I know what I meant, you know what I meant but you are pathetically trying to add a layer of meaning that clearly isn't there. You're presumably just feeling guilty about that outside toilet on wheels of yours!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:52 AM

My outside toilet has an inside toilet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:04 AM

Well let's not get bogged down with that. I was just wondering why Richard is so bitter. Perhaps he turned his uninsured caravan over one day and a bunch of caravan-haters gathered round to applaud. Something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

Inside toilet eh?


"I'm just nipping into t' van to make cup o'char, dear."


"Oo, er, I'd give it 20 minutes if I were you, luv..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:11 AM

Well, actually, the bog in the van is probably better than the one in the house - electric flush, perfumed and sanitised after-flush, it just lacks that certain something - i was thinking of installing a musical lavatory seat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

"The Bog in the Van" - sounds like a damn fine Irish tune! How does it go? (Or should I say how do YOU go?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:42 PM

Lindisfarne?

Bog in the van is all mine, all mine,
Bog in the van is all mine!


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:53 PM

Toilet Humour.
I suppose its better than racist humour, or jokes about paedophiles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM

Raise your sights, Dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM

Steve, your humour is in my opinion not very funny


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 08:39 AM

"Steve, your humour is in my opinion not very funny"

Oh go on then.... tell us a joke so we can judge the merits of your humour.

BTW, do you really think after your mad posts on this thread that anyone is actually interested in your opinion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 12:32 PM

here are my opinions;as stated in this thread
speed and tailgating, driving too close, are the cause of many accidents on motorways.
speeding and tailgating are not exclusive to drivers who have just passed their test.
insurance companies base their premiums on size of engine and age and sex of insurers, young male drivers under 25 are penalised[regardless of driving experience.
What is mad about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 06:05 PM

I'd have thought that young male drivers under 25 were rather good at sex. Well, I was, anyway. It's been downhill ever since - downhill at 85mph, naturally, and just two feet from the car in front, only one hand on the wheel as the other was giving the finger to the caravanner in the middle lane...


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Mudcat time: 8 August 2:43 AM EDT

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