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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: michaelr Date: 17 Jan 17 - 06:56 PM Kudos to Cyril for putting down roots and serving in the Navy before he was born. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: CupOfTea Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:30 PM I was interested to see the strong feelings about songs with a particular locale NOT being changed to another place. Just ain't right? I can see the point with Sammy's Bar, because the story is so thoroughly steeped in geography and language of the place. But I can think of a number of songs in the Irish/English/Scottish/American spectrum that have "migrated" from place to place when the story is so universal, and many times sung by those who've migrated as well. The back-and-forth of many performers between these places seems to make changing place names part of the show - throw in a local reference in a place it'll fit conveniently. Ed Miller, a Scotsman living in Austin took "Rivers of Texas" and interspersed some verses about Scottish river-powered mills and created "Rivers and Rievers" (and Rivers of Texas has other variants with river names from other states - Illinois, New York, etc) He's als0 turned some Irish songs into Scottish versions. "Roseville Fair" by Bill Staines got transplanted to somewhere in Ireland more than once. Jean Ritchie's "One I Love" was touted as a "very old traditional Irish song sung by an American" with a revolting animation on youtube, though some of the words were similar to older songs; Universal theme,floating verses? Still doesn't make Jean's version Irish. Si Kahn's "Aragon Mill" has had considerable coverage as "Belfast Mill" and possibly other titles/place names, such that it's been recorded as "Irish trad" which it ain't. I do like it when performers actually KNOW what the original version is of songs written within living memory, and stray from it only for very good reasons. It's weird, but youtube and other online forms of access have managed to create a new kind of aural tradition that lacks authenticity or reference or accuracy. I appreciate that there are folks who look out for the interests of songwriters of their acquaintance - policing the ignorant. Some songwriters merely get amused when their songs go viral within their lifetime, thought to be traditional. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: michaelr Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:03 AM Ah yes - policing the ignorant. We definitively need more of that. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:24 AM Roy Mclean, his roots were Hampshire and Devon whatever that obituary might say, it is incorrect, explain which royal navy base he worked from in Cornwall and give details of his residence times in Cornwall.it is true he recorded childrens songs from devon and cornwall but that does not mean his roots were Cornish.Cyril was born in hampshire and spent time in devon later lived in leeds and studied at lancaster university |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:26 AM I dont need to read factually partially inaccurate obituaturies,I knew Cyril quite well and had lots of conversation with him |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: Teribus Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:27 AM "I can not think of any with a "Hampshire flavour"! Try "Cheering of the Queen" the very first song Cyril Tawney came up with that he put down on paper - HRH Princess Margaret asked him for the words, she thought it a very funny song and he obliged her. About as Hampshire and Naval as you could get. The song is about what happened to the crew of the "T-Class" Submarine Cyril Tawney was serving in at the Queen's Coronation Review. Moored close to the shore of the Isle of Wight with the crew all mustered on the Conning Tower and Casing of the Submarine to cheer the Queen as she sailed past in HMS Surprise. As the Queen sailed past the crew of the submarine were attacked by "A swarm of gnats as big as bats", apparently the Queen and her Husband remarked on how enthusiastically the crew of the submarine were cheering. The song written down was often performed by the crew of HMY Britannia for the Queen. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:34 AM CupOfTea Well said, Joanne. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,Reinhard Date: 18 Jan 17 - 09:10 AM "I dont need to read factually partially inaccurate obituaturies" The Independent obituary quoted Cyril Tawney's own words which are from a 1972 interview by Eric Winter. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:01 AM yes, the independent obit it is wrong , Cyrils roots were hampshire and devon. a more accurate obit was derek schofields in guardian for christ sake there is only one naval base in cornwall for helicopters cyril was a submariner, the oggy man is devonport based. it is about time that these repeated press inaccuracies were sorted. cyrils roots were hampshire and devon.anyone who knows anything about the west country will tell you of the fierce rivalry between devon and cornwall. if you are going to be inaccurate, do a proper job, and say he had somerset and gloucstershire roots, why not? its all the west country, or why not say he had roots from the scilly isles, that is equally wide of the mark |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:32 AM "I can not think of any with a "Hampshire flavour"! well ha ha, just shows how little you know, try gosport tragedy, and gosport nancy, tradtional songs which cyril either collected or sang. on one occasion when Cyril was staying in my house, we were having a long conversation he stated that in fact his ancestors were from Stapleford Tawney, however his immediate roots were hampshire and devon and the royal navy |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:36 AM if you wan to check it out you will find his funeral service was in stapleford tawney church in essex, kind of backs up what i am saying. but never mind anyone that actually knew cyril well, carry on quoting inaccurate obits. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:47 AM the above post referred to ONE OF HIS RELATIVES who was buried in stapleford tawney. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: Jeri Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:58 AM Dick, who would you say is more believable on the subject of Cyril Tawney, you or Cyril? |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:51 PM Charges of plagiarism, thieving and anti-English bigotry are completely ridiculous. The author was credited on the original album so I'm sure the band were well aware of the song's origins and never claimed it to be Irish. The tag 'Irish Music' on the album cover was probably a record company decision and no big deal in my opinion (even though it may have misinformed the YouTube uploader). Changing the words is less forgivable but it is no more anti-English than changing the words to Irish songs is anti-Irish. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: Jack Campin Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:41 PM The record company in question was ARC Music, the world music arm of the Scientologists, who, whatever else you might say about them, have never been afraid to label their products with unfashionable ethnicities, and are quite happy to describe something as English when the artist wants them to: http://www.arcmusic.co.uk/shop/theultimateguidetoenglishfolklinernotesbyjonboden-p-1315.html This outfit may be the same as a "Tara Irish band" who appear to be Hungarian. (I have encountered this sort of Irish-inspired cultural anti-Englishness from Hungarians; they probably got it from Germans who had themselves got it second-hand, and it fits in well with endemic Hungarian nationalist paranoias). Click for some of the worst bodhran playing you ever likely to witness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAUYATWkSo |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 03:03 PM As far as I am aware the singer was an Irish guy living in Germany. I'm sure he sang the song because he liked it and I'm sure he was well aware it was written by an Englishman. And I think we can safely assume that he liked lots of English songs. The charge of 'Irish-inspired cultural anti-Englishness' does not stand up. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 03:07 PM Jeri. Cyril was born in gosport, Hants SANG songs relating to the place, as Teribus pointed out also composed a song whilst there, his roots were Hampshire and Devon, He served as a submariner. his ase was devonport which is in Devon, NOT CORNWALL.Most of his songs were written during his naval service which was not based in cornwall. he collected in devon and cornwall and later lived for many years in leeds, these are facts, and what he told me personally. i dont expect an American to understand the rivalry between devon and cornwall it is similiar to yorks and lancs, you can believe what you like and do you know i dont care what you think. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 03:22 PM He moved back not to cornwall but to exeter devon,check it out jeri. Eric Winter was using a bit of poetic licence. Cyrils roots were not somerset, gloucstershire or cornwall, the scilly isles,or bristol, but hampshire and devon |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 03:41 PM cyril tawney songbook. 1 sammys bar.2 plymouth lament[plymouth is in devon, jeri]. 3 nobby hall 4 bitter sweet bed 5. second class citizens song [mentions plymouth. 6 cheering the queen[ gosport hants]7 newnames for old,8. vanity. 9. beacon park[that is in plymouth devon] and so on not one song about cornwall or any mention of cornwall. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 04:01 PM here are cyrils own words in his introduction to his song book [not one word about cornwall BORN INTO A ROYAL NAVAL FAMILY IN GOSPORT HANTS SPENT MOST OF WORLD WAR TWO AS AN EVACUEE IN HAMPSHIRE VILLAGE OF HAMBLEDON, HE OBTAINED A COUNTY SCHOLARSHIP TO GOSPORT GRAMMAR SCHOOL. HE JOINEd ROYAL NAVY IN 1946. IN MAY 1959 HE LEFT THE NAVY, TO START ON STUDYING AND COLLECTING SONGS FROM THE SOUTH WEST MAKING HIS BASE PLYMOUTH DEVON IN ORDER TO CONCENTRATE ON HIS BROADCASTING CAREER. his own words in his introduction to his songbook, not one word about cornwall.WHY?COS HIS ROOTS WERE HAMPSHIRE AND DEVON. IT IS AS STUPID AS SAYING WOODY GUTHRIE WAS FROM TEXAS |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jan 17 - 04:14 PM MORE STUPID BECAUSE AT LEAST GUTHRIE lived in texas for a while Tawney never lived in cornwall, he did collect some childrens songs there but thats about it, he brought on one april morning to the attention of the folk revival, a song that was not collectd in cornwall, but in devon. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,Guest Luke McLean Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:27 PM SCHWEIK> My last words on this thread which seems to have turned into a mini forest fire. [1] I am not questioning Tawney's biological roots. It is fact that he was born/grew up in Hampshire and nobody is disputing this. You seem to be introducing this as some form of deflection from my original point. An attempt to introduce a red herring? [2] My original point is that despite his Hampshire birthplace he appears to be musically identified more with folk songs from or sited in the South West, ie Cornwall & Devon. I see the SW as being the main location of his musical roots, especially in his early days. I feel his initial important musical inspiration sprang from this area and the Royal Navy. [3] I feel you are being rather foolhardy to reject the "Independent" obituary so completely out of hand. Remember, it claims to be quoting your friend Cyril Tawney himself! [4] I do not object to you claiming Tawney as a Hampshire man as that is what he patently was. I was referring more to his musical roots rather than his biological ones. Similarly, I think that we would all agree that Wilfred Owen's poetic roots/inspirations are mainly to be found in the trenches of WW1., rather that in Shropshire, Wales or anywhere else in the UK Just like The Rolling Stones musical roots are to be found in the Mississippi Delta or South Chicago, not London. [5] I stand by my original point. However I do not feel there is anything more constructive for me to say on the matter at this time. I think we should drop it. We are after all both on the same side --- We are both admirers of Cyril Tawney and the "Sammy's Bar"song. [6] The Rigs of Time version is actually the worst version of a good song that I have ever heard! Talk about destroying something beautiful !!!!!!!! Moreover, the altering of the wording of contemporary songs, so as to make them appear as if they are from somewhere else, makes me feel very uneasy. As an Irishman I am ashamed that some of my compatriots seem to have been involved in the butchering of this fine song and the deliberate concealment of its true origins along with the name of the outstanding man who wrote it. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jan 17 - 07:41 AM no no non,for the sake of accuracy "My original point is that despite his Hampshire birthplace he appears to be musically identified more with folk songs from or sited in the South West, ie Cornwall & Devon. I see the SW as being the main location of his musical roots, especially in his early days." the south west includes somerset gloucestershire, he had no connection with them and very little with cornwall, his songs are rooted in the navy, hampshire and devon, i have given examples, and quoted his own words from his song book[ jeri please take note and for god sake listen to someone that knew him well and is quoting his own words in print]here is an example of sally free and easy, that was inspired by cyril telling me i should learn it on concertina "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tUvD0IjQY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tUvD0IjQY i agree with your point no6, not sure about rolling stones roots ,sonny boy williamson said those english guys want to play the blues so bad and thats just what they do |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 20 Jan 17 - 06:18 AM Cyril Tawney was credited on the album. The band are not guilty of stealing, concealment or bigotry. Jack Campin, "Tara Irish Band" is not the same oufit. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Jan 17 - 06:49 AM Giving his name does not tell the CD purchaser where he came from, does it? They couldn't bear to admit that an Englishman wrote a song they wanted to sing. That's hardly an unusual attitude in certain circles. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 20 Jan 17 - 07:41 AM Come off it. The band is not obliged to tell the CD purchaser where Cyril Tawney came from. It is not unusual for CD's to contain no biographical information on credited songwriters. How do you know they couldn't bear to admit Cyril Tawney was English? How is it even possible for them to deny it? I'm sure some Irish songwriters must have been just simply credited by English singers on recordings without any biographical information. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Jan 17 - 11:14 AM Yes they WERE obliged to say where he came from. Saying nothing makes you part of the farrago of bullshit that gets Dirty Old Town classified as "Irish trad" and encourages Irish (or more often wannabe-Irish) xenophobes to think that sort of racism is just normal and not worth commenting on. If you put out a CD labelled as "Irish music" and a large fraction of what's on it isn't Irish in any way, you have some explaining to do. It's less common than it used to be, and as Martin Ryan pointed out there's absolutely NO need for it; Irish tradition has plenty enough achievements of its own without stealing the credit from other people. The minority of anti-English knuckle-draggers are a destructive discredit to the Irish music scene. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 20 Jan 17 - 01:23 PM English singers not stating the nationality of Irish writers on CDs is not racism and vice versa. If I wrote a hit song for an English singer I would hate it if they made a big deal about my nationality because it is irrelevant. The Irish tradition stealing credit is a figment of your imagination. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 20 Jan 17 - 01:38 PM The ignorance of individuals or less than comprehensive liner notes on budget CDs does not constitute a whole tradition stealing credit. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,Guest Roy McLean Date: 20 Jan 17 - 11:48 PM SCHEIK: I say Tawney's musical roots are largely to be found in the South West which I see as being The Navy, Cornwall and Devon. You say they are to be found in The Navy, Devon and Hampshire. Small difference. While you stretch the SW to include Somerset and Glous, Im afraid I do not regard Glous. as being SW. I think Somerset has fair claim to being SW. You say his influence from Cornwall was, "Very little". I cant go along with that! Agree to disagree? When I see, as on Johnny McAvoy's double Irish favourites CD, "Sammy's Bar" being described as a favourite Irish traditional song and a favourite old Irish ballad, I just feel its wrong. Makes me want to puke. Poor old Cyrils only been dead a matter of years and they are already picking over his bones! |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 05:58 AM fair comment, however it is important to maintain accuracy. as an Englshman I am aware of the strong diffrence between cornwall and devon, particularly as many cornish people dont regard themselves as english, they once had a seperate langauge up until 1768, "Barrington's brother, Daines Barrington, searched for speakers of the Cornish language and at Mousehole found Dolly Pentreath, a fish seller of 76 years of age, who "could speak Cornish very fluently". ... Pentreath, who died in 1777, is popularly claimed to be the last native speaker of Cornish".true the language has been recreated, the devon cornwall thing is abit like like cork and kerry, the facts are cyrils roots are devon and hampshire and royal navy, he was undisputedly english not cornish |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 06:04 AM Johnny McEvoy recorded Sammy's Bar in 1974. I can't imagine Cyril minded and I'm sure everything was above board royalties wise. Johnny probably doesn't have any control over the titles of compilation CD reissues. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: thetwangman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 06:37 AM Checking on Discogs, I don't think any of Johnny's original albums had such corny titles. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 06:49 AM "South West England is one of nine official regions of England. It is the largest in area, covering 9,200 square miles (23,800 km2)[1] and the counties of Gloucestershire, Bristol, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall, as well as the Isles of Scilly. Five million people live in South West England." Cornish songs include songs in cornish langauge cyril did not sing any of those, the person that did and who specialised incornish songs was brenda wooton, [l assisted by john the fish, for god sake lets have some accuracy , |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 07:03 AM to briefly divert about the cornish folk scene apart from brenda wooton, there was an invasion in the early sixties offolk singers, blues singers songwriters from other places who sang american folk songs, wizz jones, ralph mctell, donovan etc,these were described as beatniks. cyril tawney was not a beatnik and was not involved in this scenek, which was geared to some extent around st ives. JERI AGAIN I WAS FECKIN WELL THERE, IN 1966, so i am talking from first hand experience, so will yopu just feckin listen instead of misquoting inaccurate feckin obits. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 07:40 AM Cyril did collect songs from charlie wills again as far as i know he was not cornish or did he sing songs in the cornish.language |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM Changing a song to make it refer to a different country is really not much different from updating a play and doing it in costumes of a different times. It can be a mistake, but equally it can be a valid way of helping people see it as relevant and real. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jan 17 - 05:44 PM it is imo very different, rather, why not go away and write your own play or song |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 17 - 09:53 PM No rules about it - when Ewan McColl rewrote Jamie Foyers to be about the Spanish Civil War it made a lot of sense. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 22 Jan 17 - 04:41 AM you are generalising from one particular example .and in doing so inadvertently creating a new rule MacColl adapted it from a traditional Scottish song about a soldier who fought in the Peninsular War, only retaining the first verse. Ewan did not take a composed song without the authors permission and alter it, a completely different scenario |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 17 - 08:54 PM My point was that rewriting songs to meet different times and places can be perfectly appropriate. I don't think whether a song's author is known or not is actually relevant in this context. All songs got made up by someone, and more often than not they've been remade by others. I think Israel Kamakawiwoʻole was perfectly right to rework Over the Rainbow and What a Wonderful World and stick them together. Something new and evocative emerges. Of course copyright and so forth comes into it, but that's about law, not artistic ethics. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,GUEST Roy McLean Date: 22 Jan 17 - 10:33 PM SCHWEIK> I know what you mean about Cornish nationalism. I once had neighbours who happened to be Cornish. They were very proud of being Cornish and some of them refused to regard themselves as being in any way English! Being an Ulsterman myself, I am well acquainted with the intricacies and pitfalls of nationalism. I wish you well in your self proclaimed "quest for accuracy", just be careful where you find it! I think we should be careful to differentiate between songs and tunes. Tunes can obviously be used repeatedly simply by using a new set of words/lyrics each time. This does not corrupt the tune in anyway. However, if we are dealing with a song, especially one of relatively recent composition with a structured narrative and story line, then I think the situation is different. If you leave the story line more or less intact but simply fill in new words in certain slots and these new words change the perceived origin/character of the original, then it seems a bit off. Its like you cant write your own songs and instead are indulging in some sort of writing by numbers activity. Moreover, if this were done extensively enough we would reach a situation where no country/culture could build up "song lists" of their own! Folk music would lose an essential tenent of its character and the "Folk music process" would become the "Folk music anti-process" which would result in its original and basic regional enrichment system being lost. TWANGMAN> As you say McEvoy recorded the song in the 70s. He produced, IMHO, the best recorded version there is. At that time he used the original lyrics and did not attempt in any way to portray the song as being "Irish"! The Irish tagging was done on a later double album, the sort of "Best Hits" thing that artists tend to produce near the end of their careers to try and make a few last bucks. I am an admirer of Johnny McEvoy. I believe he really liked this song and I am quite prepared to believe he had nothing to do with the Irishing up of this wonderful song. It seems more the handiwork of the PR department/Producer/Record company! |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 23 Jan 17 - 08:20 AM McGrath you are wrong a composed song is owned by someone it need their permission to alter it, and certainly to significant;y alter its meaning that is the law, you can argue what you like , but Sammys bar AND EVERY OTHER MODERN COMPOSED SONG IN FOLK GENRE OR ANY POTHERGENRE is copyrighted it is not only good manners to ask, but it is also the law. trad material is completely different. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 23 Jan 17 - 08:25 AM MC GRATH ETHICALLY IT IS WRONG UNLESS YOU ASK THE COMPOSERS PERMISSION. if they are dead leave the song unaltered, it is bad manners. the song writer wrote it in a certain way if he is not available leave it be. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 23 Jan 17 - 11:07 AM Over the barrel, (where the cheap shots are taken). http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/06/a_guide_to_punctuation_on_the.html |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: GUEST,Guest Roy McLeanI Date: 24 Jan 17 - 10:25 PM I mean, every song will be from nowhere and every song will be from anywhere! The Koreans will be claiming "Danny Boy" as their own and once again the Chinese will be insisting that "Over the sea to Skye" is really only "Over the sea to Formosa" in disguise. The origins of songs will become so corrupted, distorted or downright plagiarised that they will cease to have an origin. If they lose their origins then they will lose their traditions. If they lose their traditions then Folk music collectors will have great trouble making meaningful collections for many of them, given that invariably the first thing we what to hear about a song is where it is from. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 17 - 11:22 AM That's precisely what's happened wiith songs throughout history. They get changed, intentionally or through lapses of memory, and that's why we hacpve variants and families of songs. "Trad is different" No it isn't. Someone made up the songs we think of as traditional, often a lot more recently than people realise. Ownership and property is one thing, but they've got nothing to do with the ethics of the thing. Unless makng mney comes into it, in which case there's an obligatin to pay up. Manners comes in if you know the person involved, not otherwise, in how I see it. I'm very much of the opinion of Sydney Carter here, and not his executors. He believed songs should not be seen as property so far as changing tgem was involved, and welcomed tge idea his sngs might gve birth that variants. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 25 Jan 17 - 01:06 PM "I'm very much of the opinion of Sydney Carter here, and not his executors. He believed songs should not be seen as property so far as changing tgem was involved, and welcomed tge idea his sngs might gve birth that variant" That was Carters opinion, but no one else has the right to change any composition without the song writers permission, would you mind me altering a constable paiting of flatford mill, because i wanted it to be a picture of ireland, of course you would nt. nobody alters the words of masters of war consciously, because they need dylans permission, it is not a tradtional song, tradtional songs were altered both consciously and unconsciously.altering the origin of a song can also mean altering its meaning if that happens without the writers permission it is unethical, why then should i not alter pincher marten because i think its boring?why not because it is not my artistic work and i have not received goldings permission. |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: Jack Campin Date: 25 Jan 17 - 01:11 PM a composed song is owned by someone it need their permission to alter it, and certainly to significant;y alter its meaning that is the law, It is in some jurisdictions and not in others. Parody is permitted unconditionally in most places (I think France is an exception). In general, the original composer will still be entitled to payment when a modified or parodied version of their song is performed. But law only follows ethics in part. Refusing to acknowledge a composer's nationality or ethnicity (as a lot of people in the wannabe-Irish music scene do when the composer is English) is repulsively bigoted, but I doubt there's a law against it anywhere. (Wouldn't it be great if there was a law we could use to ban English D/G melodeon players from mutilating the Bluebell Polka by leaving the C section out? Or to compel Irish musicians to play Mrs Macleod of Raasay the right way round, in the right key and with the right title?...) |
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Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version. From: The Sandman Date: 25 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM manners come in to it regardless of whether you know the people, these days you can get on the net or the phnoe and blooming well contact them and ask. have you ever written any songs McGrath? if you had and someone altered the meaning without asking, I dont think you would be so magnanimous about people alreing your artistic work. shall i rewrite Icarus without asking ann lister? and while i am about it give it a "we all live happily ever after ending" where will it all end |
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