Samhain songs

Subject: With Samhain approaching. . .
From:
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 02:08 PM

Does anyone know of more songs like "John Barleycorn" that have roots in very old and dark rituals? The songs that fascinate me are those which use psychically potent symbols to describe long-celebrated traditions. They can stand on their own merits as appealing songs and reveal their origins when one knows the meaning of the symbols or keywords-if you get my meaning. I know there is a live thread called "Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Research Project" and some of those entries are good, but I am just interested in the songs. Also, it would be a great help to know where I could hear them. Maybe it is just the season of shadows approaching. . .

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 03:12 PM

You said: reveal their origins when one knows the meaning of the symbols or keywords-, yet you left us no symbols or keywords, that I can see, as to who you are?

You have started an interesting thread. It would just be nice to know who you are.

kat

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: clj
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 03:26 PM

Sorry about that. I left for lunch and hit submit. Thanks, clj

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 04:21 PM

With the caveat that much of the "pagan survival" business is probably pure fantasy, "The Lyke-Wake Dirge" comes to mind, as do songs associated with Souling Night; the Soul Caking song for example. Then there's "Poor Old Horse" (the death-and-resurrection song/play, not the shanty of the same name)- mostly a midwinter ceremony, but associated with Souling Night in the Cheshire tradition. A decorated horse skull on a pole is certainly a pretty potent symbol! Oh, and the Derby Ram ("T'owd Tup" in my neck of the woods. The Watersons' album "Frost & Fire" is a collection of seasonal/ceremonial songs which might interest you, too.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 04:39 PM

clj, I am sorry if I sounded a little miffed. Anyone certainly has the right to post anonymously, it's just more fun to know who started such a great thread. Thanks for letting us know.

kat

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Susan of DT
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 04:55 PM

try searching for @seasonal @ritual and @myth for a wide variety of songs, some of which may be what you are looking for. Remember that not all songs that should have these keywords really have them.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Jeff Kalmar
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 08:01 PM

"Oak, Ash and Thorn" [A Tree Song] is a favorite of mine. "Gently Johnny" from "The Wicker Man" is about the oldest ritual of all ;). The songs of Gwydion Penderrwen, while modern, are concerned in many cases with old ritual as researched/reconstructed by modern Wiccans (redundant?). Isaac Bonewits wrote a wonderful song called "Come to Me" which tells the myth of the Descent of the Goddess - from the God's point of view! (I played guitar and keyboards on that - pardon the plug!). A friend of mine wrote lyrics about Inanna's descent to the tune of "Copacabana" (really!). Try searching the music page at the Witches' Voice website ( http://witchvox.com ). And Blessed Be!

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Banjer
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 06:11 AM

From reading and guessing I am assuming that Samhain has some tie in with what we know as Halloween...Is that correct? In other words, what in the Sam Hill is Samhain?

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 08:42 AM

Where is The Sam Hill?

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 08:50 AM

Some Steeleye Span songs deal with this subject:

700 Elves, Alison Gross (Parcel of Rogues), The Blacksmith (Please to See the King), King Henry, John Barleycorn (Below the Salt)

Regards, Ted

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 08:58 AM

Once again General you have earned the medal which you so proudly wear and the title to which you have arisen.

General F****P BANJ, Order of the I.D.A. (for those of you unfamiliar with Mudcat ranking, that is a 4 star fockup and proud member of the Incredible Dumbass Order)

Once again you prove us to be the team we are so well noted for being here at the 'Cat....One of us can quite stupidly and with ignorance aforethought admit to not having the vaguest notion of what the hell someone is talking about (even ourselves on most occasions) and the other follows along, proudly stating that we don't particularly give a turkey either!

May the Light of Foolishness and Stupidity shine upon us and may the Bliss of Ignorance provide us with the piece of Pecan Pie I've been yearning for the past few days.

Spaw

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 09:31 AM

The Sam Hill is one of the entrances to Fairyland.

Samhain (pronounced approximately Saa-win in modern Irish) is the old Irish word for the cross-quarter day which begins the winter, now identified with November 1st or Hallowmas. Some scholars suggest that it was an especially spooky or numinous time, being on the line between summer and winter. Whatever may have been the case in antiquity, it was certainly considered a spooky time in parts of 19th century Ireland: the preceeding night, All-hallows eve or oiche shamhna (pronounced, I think, very approximately, "eeshya howna"), was called "Pooka night" in some places.

Some people call Samhain the "celtic new year" but this goes beyond the evidence. Assuming the ancient Irish reckoned time by years at all (rather than, say, by half-years) it may have been "a" new year day. The ancient tale that lists the four cross-quarter days lists samhain first. But that doesn't mean it was "the" new year, even if it was "a" new year, which the story doesn't explicitly say in any case. It only says "samhain, when the summer goes to rest." And even if it was "a" or "the" new year for Ireland, there is no evidence that it was such for Britain outside the areas where the Irish settled, or Gaul. So calling it a "celtic" new year would go beyond the evidence even if the point were conceded for Ireland.

T. (Okiemockbird)

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Knitpick
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 09:42 AM

"Oak and Ash and Thorn" [A Tree Song] is a Kipling poem -- based on all the stuff from pagan rituals etc -- but it is a more recent poem -- I think the tune that's with it is one of Peter Bellamy's Kipling tunes.

knitpick

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 12:48 PM

T. (Okiemockbird), I am enjoying your contributions. I came across the Celtic New Year idea first, I think, in a book on Celtic mythology (I'll have to find the authors later something like Gwyn Williams), which compared Celtic myth with Indian (sub continent) material, and Samhain with Diwali, which is the beginning of that year. It's not exactly evidence, but there were a lot of parallels. I'd like to say I'll go and check and get back, but I have a few calls on my time at the moment.

Penny

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: clj
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 04:24 PM

Did not know what Sam Hill meant either. Thanks. Formerly, Samhain was not a celebration-sensible people stayed behind locked doors. No one wanted restless spirits to sneak in and wreck the place (some cautious souls carved vegetables to look frightening and stuck them on fenceposts). I have no idea how it degenerated into its present, at least in North America, goofiness. However, I continue the search for the aforementioned songs. Thanks for the info already.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Mían
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 04:39 PM

The book you are thinking of is by Brinley Rees and Alwyn Rees. Celtic Heritage: Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales. New York: Thames and Hudson, 1961; repr. 1989. ISBN 0500270392.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Mían
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 04:45 PM

And you must be joking about the Sam Hill. Aren't you? Or is it from reference to a "Samhain hill"????

And what about that slice of pecan pie???

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Áine
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 06:14 PM

I hate to disappoint you all, but 'Sam Hill' is used as a euphemism/nice-nellyism for 'Hell', as in 'What in the Sam Hill are you talking about?'

Regards, Áine

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 06:22 PM

Thank you Mian, (how do you do the accent?) Got home, ate, marked, found the book, sat down to post, and hey, you beat me to it! With the authors nothing like what I suggested. I must now find where that name came from. Probably Gwyn Williams of "Excalibur"

Penny

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Banjer
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:19 PM

Yes, Aine has the correct explanation...Rather than being crass and asking 'what in the hell are you saying?' it sounds more polite to ask 'What the Sam Hill are you saying?'! Thanks for the explanation of Samhain. Always eager to learn new things.

And to paraphrase 'Spaws kindly benediction:

May the Light of Foolishness and Stupidity shine upon us and may the Bliss of Ignorance provide us with the glass of fresh squeezed pink grapefruit juice I've been yearning for the past few days.

Subject: Tune Add: JOHN BARLEYCORN
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:54 PM

Yes, I was joking about the Sam Hill being an entrance to Fairyland. Everyone knows, of course, that the entrances to Fairyland, some of them anyhow, are at Tenkiller Lake near Tahlequah, Oklahoma. The Little People live there, in underwater houses accessible through doors in the hillside.

Here is one version of John Barleycorn, although I know of no tradition associating Samhain or Hallowmas with barley-culture.

X:1
T:JOHN BARLEYCORN.
C:Source:Traditional English---Edition:Sharp & Marsen, Folk Songs From Somerset, 3rd Ser. (1906)
M:4/4
K:Bb
L:1/4
F|BBBD/E/|FFFF|BB(B/c/)d|c3(B/c/)|dddc/c/|ddG(A/B/)|
c>dcB|(BAG)F|BFF>E|D/E/F/G/ F2| B>cdc|B3||

There came three men from out the west
their victory to try,
and they have taken a solemn oath
John Barleycorn should die.
Sing ri fol lol, the diddle al the dee,
right fal leero dee.

T.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 09:34 PM

Actually, there was a Sam Hill in my neck o' the woods; built what is now the Maryhill Museum.

He was referred to as "King of the castle in the middle of nowhere."

Mudjack will verify this.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:47 PM

I did an extensive web search and found that a "Samhain" is a Jamaican cruise missile powered by corn syrup, eggs, and brown sugar and when it explodes atop Sam Hill by the Indian River, the pecan clusters inflict heavy damage on the grapefruit groves.

Spaw

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:49 PM

Good work, 'spaw. Have pecan tree seedlings begun growing at the test site on Sam Hill ?

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 01:59 AM

Not quite, T in Oklahoma. What has happened though is that a mutation has taken place. The grapefruit and the pecans have formed a new delicacy. You pick the product of this new tree, wait for it to dry and then shred it. It's called 'grape nuts'! Good with milk on it! This missile is not to be confused with the famous 'Sampain' which as I understand it is nothing but Chinese junk....

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: emily rain
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 01:54 PM

T,

i had always accepted the designation of samhain as irish new year because it seemed to fit well with the old way of reckoning days, i.e. a day begins at sundown the evening before. it seemed right and good that a new year should begin at the beginning of winter.

sleep first, then work. very healthy prioritizing.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 02:26 PM

emily,

Starting days with sunset might (this is an unexamined guess) be a feature of lunar calendars (such as the Islamic, the neo-Babylonian, and the neo-Babylonian calendar's modern progeny: the Jewish Calendar and the Christian Easter cycle) which start the month with the new waxing crescent. Even if this generalization is right, I'd be cautious before extending it to lunar calendars (like the ancient Egyptian luncar calendars--not to be confused with the 365-day Egyptian sothic calendar) which start the lunar month by noting the last appearance of the waning crescent. I'd be even more cautious of extending to solar calendars. That doesn't mean it's not true that the Irish started the day with sunset (one of the classical writers asserted this for the Gauls, I vaguely recall), only that we can't jump to the conclusion.

This doesn't mean Samhain wasn't an ancient Irish new year. In the Tochmarc Emire, which mentions the four cross-quarter days, Samhain is the first mentioned. Other sources (I'm not certain of their geographical origins within Ireland, so they may only apply to parts of the Island) suggest that it was the time of important assemblies. So it might have been "a" new year day, even if not "the" new year day. Some societies, including our own (the School year begins in August/September, the federal fiscal year begins on 1 Oct., for some Christians the lectionary year begins on the Sunday in the week of November 27, for Jewish folk there is the 1st of Tishri and 3 other new-year days, etc.) have multiple new years. But even taking the more cautious approach and calling Samhain "a" new year presupposes that the Irish, prior to Christianity, used years at all. Maybe they used half-years, and spoke of "next summer" and "next winter" rather than "next year".

On its own merits, of course, November 1 is just as good as January 1 for us moderns to use for starting a year.

T.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 03:47 PM

Midsummer / Midwinter / are annual events. The Celts - in Western Europe - who incidently built boats and sailed around trading etc., had a very good calendar. Search for Celt on the net - I am too lazy to be finding the sites fer ya. The Irish-Scots who in these times were one Tribe, used the same system of reckoning. Note they actualy came out of southern Europe so THEY WERE NOT always in Pritani or Britain as it later came to be called. Hope that helps. :0)

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: MMario
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 03:55 PM

I find it intersting to see "John Barleycorn" described as a song with its roots "in very old and dark rituals. " I have always thought of it as I heard it described this weekend..."a recipe for beer"

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 09:41 PM

jO_77,

I don't know of any pan-celtic calendar. The most detailed pre-Christian calendar I know of from Celtic-speaking western Europe is the Coligny calendar, a lunisolar calendar dug up from a ruined Roman or Romano-Gaulish temple of Apollo or Mars (the identity of the god is uncertain) in 1897. I suppose this was a good calendar for the temple where it was used (it's reasonable to assume it was used there, though even that isn't certain). There is no evidence it was used anywhere else. And southern Gaul is a long way from Ireland.

That the Celtic languages originated as a single language doesn't argue for a common calendar once celtic languages had been imposed on a wide area.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 10:05 PM

here is some info on a celtic calendar. I did not explore the site so I do not vouch for its veracity.

here is a fairly lengthy and detailed exploration of theories about the celtic calendar, including information,on this page and another, about the Coligny Calendar.

I may be opening myself up for scholarly presumptions, but but I might also add that in the Rosicruian Order, AMORC (Ancient Mystical Order of the Rosy Cross, or Rose-Croix), we begin our new year on the Spring Equinox, generally around March 21st. This dates from ancient Egyptian times. I'd have to look up more info in a reference volumne which is downstairs. I bring up later and do so if anyone is interested.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: j0_77
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 12:35 AM

Thanx Kat interesting links. I am not an expert on this topic but know enough not to make big errors.

T in Ok You are confusing a place with a culture - Ireland and the Gaels. It is simply not the case that Ireland is the origin of these people, much less of Celtic astronomy. (There is one interesting place in Ireland at Newgrange and it has some interesting features. There is a web page.)

I hope I ain't confusing anyone here. The Gaelic-speaking Celts Scoti etc arrived in Britain hence Ireland/Eire long after the other much more numerous branch - The latter occupied Southern England and Wales. The language they used is like modern Welsh or Cwmraig(I hope my spelling is correct my Welsh is so bad grrrr)

These Gaels were unlike the other celts and moved around lots. So you'll find traces in Bavaria, Switzerland, and NW Spain for example. Gaelic I believe is a mixture of several ancient languages. The Gael were known for their ability to quickly learn languages and absorb them.

I hope that helps to redirect the focus to more likely sources of information.

:0)

Some Halloween Stuff
The Greeks made war upon the Keltoi ...were these our wandering Gaels? perhaps, we may never know. I do know that the Greeks complained that the Keltoi would not fight fair after the Greeks had lost a few battles. They reported the Keltoi would run under the (beneath) the legs of the Greek and upend him, then steal his weapons and run away. Funny way of winning battles. Eventually, the Greeks fooled the Keltoi with spooky stuff in the dark - using white robes and candles and making funny sounds. The Keltoi ran away.

Rome once made the Celts mad and was overran all the way to Rome itself, don't recall the exact detail but something to do with spooky stuff. I guess Caesar underestimated them.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: alison
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 03:50 AM

Just to confuse this further.. we're actually heading for Beltane here in Oz.....

here's some dancing monsters to keep you going..... (don't go here if you're still recovering from the hamsters)

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: AKS
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 04:21 AM

btw Samhain also is an excellent Irish band (Paul Grattan flute, Paul O'Saughnessy fiddle, Brendan Begley (acc & voc), Noel O'Grady bouz). They played a gig here in Joensuu as a part of the annual (end of Sept) Irish Festival in Finland two years ago. Does anyone know whether they still are on? I think I met them being mentioned at some Irish site quite recently but cannot recall where that was (I know I know - bookmarks!).

slán Arto K Sallinen, Joensuu Finland

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:04 AM

jO_77,

My point is that there is no evidence for a single "celtic astronomy" or "celtic calendar" in historical times before the introduction of Christianity and its calendar. I have glanced at the alpes-net web site kat has provided, and I find that the author there is simply assuming the existence of a "celtic calendar" and "celtic astronomy", then generalizing data for the Gauls to the inhabitants of all Celtic-ruled lands. Even so he has to work to fit the Irish cross-quarter days into his scheme, thereby implicitly recognizing that the Irish system of cross-quarter days and the lunisolar system of the Coligny calendar don't fit at first glance.

I'm not aware of any certain chronology for the first installation of a celtic-speaking aristocracy in any part of the British Isles. The only constraint is that, by the time written records begin, the British Isles and other parts of western Europe are ruled by celic-speaking warrior aristocracies. (To keep it simple I'm leaving out the Galatians and other eastern Celts. I think it's true, though, that some of the Eastward conquests are historically documented). The users, or some users, of the so-called La-Tene culture are thought to have been celtic-speaking, but the spread of artistic styles doesn't necessarily coincide with the spread of new linguistic aristocracies. A celtic-speaking aristocracy might have installed itself in Ireland simultaneously with the arrival of the La-Tene styles, or Ireland might have been Irish-ruled before the adoption of the new artistic styles. Nor was the La-Tene culture pan-celtic, even if all its users were celtic-speaking or celtic-ruled: as I understand, the so-called Celtiberians in what is now Spain didn't adopt the La-Tene styles.

This doesn't mean that there were no common cultural elements among the inhabitants of celtic-ruled lands. It doesn't mean that there was no common "celtic calendar". Only that the evidence is sparse and fragmentary, and tends, if any way at all, against the asumption that the Coligny calendar, or any other single calendar, was the common calendar of the British Isles and Gaul.

The human experience of calendrical systems, for what it's worth, also would argue against a single calendar for such a large, diverse, politically fragmented area, in the absence of positive evidence of deliberate harmonization. The modern Jewish calendar seems to have taken centuries to work out. The Roman calendar was theoretically reformed by Julius Caesar, but it took decades to implement correctly. In late 6th century Ireland, the north's system for calculating Easter differed from the south's. Getting a uniform calendar takes a strong commitment to agreement by all parties involved, and even then can take a long time.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: j0_77
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 01:50 PM

Hi Miss Alison :0)

T here is my reply
You may have a strong case here - but how could the people reckon market day? or brewing time ( a favorite celtic sport ) or anything else if they had no common calendar?

Celtic Aristocrat ?, I've no idea what you mean here. The last remaining traces of the warrior society that existed is in Scotland. Again these were a mercenary wandering people not settled people like say your Galatians etc,. So you'd be wasting your time looking for the origins of the 'celtic' calendar there except at Negrange where a use of it exists. Click here Newgrange 3000 BC

More Silly Halloween stuff
During insecure times the Crown (the King and/or Queen of ...in this case merry England) kept a piece of rock called the 'Stone of Scone' a prisioner in the Tower of London. Please do laugh as much as you like ...I did when first I read about this. The rock had been used in royal ceremonies by the Scots before the act of union etc., After that time it was taken to London to prevent the Scots crowning their own monarch. (My two cents I would crown em all with any old rock)

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:02 PM

Dear Katmyluv,

You should have done a complete search of the websites you listed and you would have found that the calendars had a tie-in of great importance. The Celtic caledar accurately coincides with the Coligny calendar which is actually more of a schedule than a calendar. Coligny is a Gaelic representation of the English word for "High Colonic," and as those of Irish descent, such as Mick and yourself, are completely full of shit, this is simply a reminder method for administering enemas......via a Jamaican Cruise Missile. Enjoy!

Spaw

Subject: Lyr Add: THE LOVER'S TASKS (Child #2 variant)
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:27 PM

jO_77, market days depend on a calendar being common only to those who can reach the market--a small area before the invention of interstate highways.

I'm not sure what Newgrange has to do with what we were discussing. Newgrange was abandoned long before the historical period. Whatever the genetic relationship may or may not have been between the people who built Newgrange and the later Irish-speaking inhabitants of the island, I'm not aware of any cultural relationship.

It's these uncertainties about the history of the celtic lands' populations and languages that led me to phrase my earlier post in terms of the celtic lands' rulers. It's a way of avoiding committing myself to any specific timetable or process for the celtization of Britain, Ireland, and Gaul. Maybe it happened by mass migrations (such as the northern English emigration to Britain, which according to one source left the earlier homeland empty for a time); maybe it was by means of aristocratic takeovers (such as the Norman conquest of England) which replaced or demoted the upper crust but left everyone else as they were. Maybe some sort of backtrailing was part of the process (such as the 6th century English migrations from Britain to Germany). I think we're on fairly safe ground if we assume that the rulers of Britain, Gaul, and Ireland spoke celtic languages when the celtic lands begin to be mentioned in written records. Maybe their subjects, or some of them, did too. (e.g. There are hints that Gaulish may have lingered into the 5th century A.D., and the easiest way I can see to account for this is to assume it had penetrated the population well before that time.) But for the purposes of discussing the calendar, I didn't think it was necessary to make any assumptions about when and how the celtic lands had become celtic.

Here's a lyric that's as good now as anytime. It doesn't seem to be in DT in precisely this version:

THE LOVER'S TASKS.
Folk Songs from Somerset, 3rd Series, ed. Cecil J. Sharp and Charles L. Marson, Simpkin & Co., London, 1906.

Say can you make me a cambric shirt
Sing ivy leaf, sweet william and thyme,
without any needle or needle work ?
And you shall be a true lover of mine.

Yes, if you wash it in yonder well
Where neither springs water, nor rain ever fell

Say can you plow me an acre of land
between the sea and the salt sea strand ?

Yes, if you plow it with one ram's horn
and sow it all over with one pepper corn

Say can you reap with a sicke of leather
and tie it all up with a tom-tit's feather ?

Yes if you gather it all in a sack,
and carry it home on a butterfly's back,

This seems to be a dialog, with one sweetheart saying the "say can you ?" verses, and the other saying the "yes if you" verses. This structure suggests that maybe someone could write an "answer" verse to serve as the second verse of the Star Spangled Banner.

T.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 01:12 AM

Jo77, I am pretty sure that the Stone of Scone has been returned to Scotland, now. When my brother visited England in the 60's, he took a very nice slide of it sitting under the throne. Being so into stones m'self, I've alway had a soft spot for that one!*g*

Spaw: "Katmyluv" indeed! Yer gonna have to repeat that over and over before I'll forget THAT one, you, you, you....oh never mind, ya big lug!

This ends theadinental drift.

kat

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: j0_77
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:07 AM

Uaimh na Graine
sun cave = newgrange. Midwinter's day.

Have a nice weekend :0)

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: j0_77
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:21 AM

Oppzz Kat cross posted awe well ... yup I know ..but is'nt it fun :0)

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 09:44 AM

jO_77,

Thanks for the good wishes for a nice weekend.

That the 19th century Irish (or even the 7th century Irish) called Newgrange a "cave" provides an example of the discontinuity between their world and the world of Newgrange's builders. The latter built Newgrange, not as a "cave", but apparently as some sort of monument. It's not even certain that the midwinter sunrise on which the monument is aligned was intended to be seen by anyone living, rather than only by the dead people inside. (The entrance was blocked by a large stone.) Then there's an additional minor factor: the azimuths of solstitial sunrises fluctuate over time. A structure precisely aligned on the midwinter sunrise in 3000 B.C. might not have been so precisely aligned in 100 B.C., though it might still have been "good enough for government work" as our saying is.

That the Irish have words for "midwinter" and "midsummer" doesn't mean that these astronomical events had a formal place in their calendrical systems. We have the words in our language, but they have no formal place in our calendar. (Though the spring equinox can be said to be significant, indirectly, in the sense that the Gregorian calendar reform adjusted the calendar so that the equinox would fall near March 21st, and any future adjustments will probably be made to keep this date close to the astronomical event.) For what it's worth, the original Roman calendar as reconstructed by some scholars did not number days between the ides of December and the 17 or 16 Calends of March or thereabouts (I forget the precise date). Days between those dates, except maybe the Saturnalia, seem not formally to have been part of the year at all. Yet the Latins had a word for midwinter, bruma.

If we conclude that midwinter had a significance in the Irish calendar pre-400 A.D. we still don't automatically know what its significance was.

If we manage to conclude what the significance of midwinter was to the Irish, we still don't automatically know what its signigicance was to the British, or to the Gauls. Nor from the significance of midwinter do we necessarily know, even for the Irish, what the significance of another day, Samhain, was.

T.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Freddie Fox
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 08:27 AM

Not trad, but have you heard 'The Traveller' by Chris de Burgh? Good ghost story that our band always on /around hallow'een. Have lyrics and music available but not to copyright, so will not post them on the site. let me know if you want them.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: wildlone
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 01:08 PM

In Dorset ther is still a group of mummers who perform an old play based on the ressurection theme.Which seems to be as old as time.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SEASONS OF THE YEAR
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 01:42 PM

Here's another lyric you might like. This lyric in the Digital Tradition under the title The Seasons' Round but with slightly different words. This variant might be of interest. T.

THE SEASONS OF THE YEAR

Collected from from John Burberry, gamekeeper, Sussex, England, 1892.
Published in Lucy E. Broadwood and J.A. Fuller Maitland, English County Songs,Leadenhall Press, London, 1893, page 143.

The sun it goes down, the sky it looks red,
Down on yonder pillow I lay down my head,
I lift up my eyes to see the stars shine,
but still this young damsel she runs in my mind.

When the sap it goes up the tree it will flaw,
we'll first branch him round, boys, and put in the saw;
but when we have sawed him, and tumbled him down,
then we do flaw him, all on the cold ground.

When flawing is over, haying draws near,
with our scythes and our pitchforks some grass for to clear;
but when we have mowed it and carried it away
we first called it green grass, we now call it hay.

When haying is over, then harvest draws near,
we'll send for the brewer, to brew us strong beer;
to brew us strong beer for the hard-working men,
for they work late and early till harvest does end.

When the sap it goes down then the leaves they do fall,
the farmer to his hedging and ditching to call,
but when it's hard weather there's no working there,
then into the barn, boys, some corn for to clear.

When spring it comes on, the maid to her cow,
the boy to his whip, and the man to his plow,
and so we bring all things so cheerfully round.
Success to the plowman that plows up the ground!

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: BobLusk
Date: 26 May 00 - 10:44 PM

Does anyone have a written description or script of a Samhain ritual?

Thanks

Bob

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Brendy
Date: 27 May 00 - 12:02 AM

Yo Bob.
I didn't read through it all, but you may find something you can use. Samháin Ritual
All the best.

B.

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 May 00 - 12:12 AM

Hate to contradict clj, but Samhain and All Hallows Eve are two different traditions. One is druidic, and the other is Christian. All Hallows Eve (Halloween) is the day before All Hallows Day (All Saints Day)

Subject: RE: With Samhain approaching, Does anyone
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 00 - 01:18 AM

Bob, a good place to look would be this website: WitchVox.

Off subject, did you know there is a town in Wyoming named Lusk? I used to go over there quite often to the only osteopathic physician in the whole state at the time.

katlaughing