BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more

Subject: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 06:04 PM

Most Irish voters will vote for a financial system that will put them in as deep a colonial position as anything in Captain Boycott's day.

What was all that black-and-tanistry all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 06:08 PM

all our economies are pretty much inter-dependant. There's still no excuse for the way Britain has behaved.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 09:02 AM

I know. All those public sector jobs, student grants, leisure centres, career opportunities and the right to work and vote in the UK the moment you step off the boat. Not to mention the accursed NHS. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 09:33 AM

An area that wants independence should start by answering two questions.

Can we afford health care?
Can we afford an air force?

If not, hang it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:12 AM

the republic of ireland has independence,
the area comprising six counties, is part of the uk.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 02:50 PM

"....the area comprising six counties, is part of the uk."
And many many loyal Ulstermen gave their lives to ensure that it would remain part of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 02:51 PM

(Reminded of the old Monty Python "What have the romans ever done for us?" skit...)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 03:52 PM

What would they want an airforce for? On the other hand, by those criteria the UK should prepare to reintegrate the USA into the Empire.

I'm also shocked that nobody has picked up my misspelling of "independence".

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 04:25 PM

I'm also shocked that nobody has picked up my misspelling of "independence".

I was more puzzled by "does't" - no query? ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland does't want indepedance any more
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

There are very few in the North of the island want free staters anywhere about them. Loyalist/unionists certainly don't, nationalists see them as a joke (looking how they run the country it's no surprise) republicans took a U turn after the way they greeted our Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 02:20 AM

Paul,

I was going to pull you up on your spelling but I didn't want to be peddantic.

Right, I'm taking bets now on how long it takes for Jim to turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 04:01 AM

by those criteria the UK should prepare to reintegrate the USA into the Empire

If you Brits will give us health care, you can have us. We just don't seem to be able to get that health care thing right....

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 06:09 AM

I `ad that Pat O`Shaunessy in my cab the other day. `e just come from a bare knuckle fight with one of them Boyles and `ed come off worst by the look of it. It must `ave cost `is family a bob or two.
I said, "Morning Pat, never mind, there`s always next year. `ave you seen the that Mudcat? They`re asking whether Ireland wants to scrub round independence. I `spose it`s all because of this Eurozone cobblers."
`e said "Ah, to be sure Jim, we`re in for another referendum".
I said, "Well, if it resulted in a currency change, what would you favour. The Punt, Pound or Euro?"
`e said, "None of them Jim, I`ll go for the GIRO!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 07:24 AM

"......how long it takes for Jim to turn up"
Go and collect your winnings - I really can't be arsed.
If you don't understand that when you draw a line to partition a country, you will pass on the repercussions of that partition from generation to generation until that line is removed - especially when it was never meant to be permanent in the first place - you never shall (until you take a closer look at the body bags).
Whether Ireland wants or doesn't want independence remains an open question - violence and murder is still taking place and come July we will once more see fighting on the streets of Belfast and Derry - as we dis last year, and the year before.....
Ireland remains in shell-shock from decades of bloody conflict, but a generation is now growing up who never experienced that conflict. The type of smugness on display here comes across as just that. Personally I can't tell the difference between the people I meet from the six counties and my neighbours here - but then again - I don't go north for the Glorious twelfth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 07:54 AM

What's 'independence'?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:12 AM

'I'm also shocked that nobody has picked up my misspelling of "independence".'

Don't be. I picked up on it but manners prev/ well, I'm sure you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:34 AM

What with the Irish budget having to be approved by the Troika it seems to me that the only part of the country where people have a chance to vote for a government with the authority to make any of its own decisions is the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:42 AM

..Though I agree about the border, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 11:11 AM

Thanks Jim (knowledge)......"It's the way ye' tell em" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 02:09 PM

I take great exception to misspellingisations of the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 03:48 PM

I don't blaim you.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 12 - 02:34 AM

Though I agree about the border, by the way.
I know I am going to regret asking, but you can not just mean throwing the border open.
It has been open for years.
So you must mean unification, which is bitterly disputed, and hardly a recipe for peace and harmony.
Or, something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 07 Mar 12 - 04:48 AM

Oh, great. The gang's all here now. There goes the neighbourhood.

Joking aside, this whole question of what 'independence' means seems to have become a very live issue in both parts of Ireland in recent years. Ideas that no-one would have dared to voice about the past, present and future relationships between the Republic, the North and the rest of the British Isles are now commonly debated - in come cases quite hotly, as you can imagine.

If you really want to look at some interesting ideas on the subject you could do a lot worse than visit www.politics.ie - which has the advantage over Mudcat in that most of the discussion takes place between Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 12 - 01:58 PM

Well here's my idea: a unified federal state of Error, the Sick Counties, and SCOTLAND: Belfast would be a natural spot for the federal capital. The combined population would be about middling for Europe, and fairly well balanced in religious affiliation. The incorporation of the Scottish element could help to reduce the NI prods' paranoia by giving them a historical stake. And a combined bridge and barrage between Portpatrick and Donaghadee would both facilitate communications and produce serious amounts of renewable tidal energy as an economic underpinning.

Not to mention the combined musical heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 12 - 03:25 PM

Was a little amused to see the National Health Service given as a reason for non-unification.
No government would dare remove the right of access of (no longer) free medical treatment from the people of the six counties - god knows, the idealogically opposed Tories have tried their best and have had to settle for a 'death-by-a-thousand-cuts two-tier system.
On the other hand, no government would dare to impose a dual system - NHS in the 6 counties, fee paid in the other 26.
Any attempts at re-unification would have to include a NHS for the whole of Ireland - winners all round, as that removes the idealogical opposition to "free treatment" (sic - pardon the pun).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 03:23 AM

"Not to mention the combined musical heritage" This town hosts a week-long music school every July and is crowded to the gunnels with musicians, singers and enthusiasts from all over the world - the North (never know what to call the Six Counties - the most northerly point of Ireland is in Donegal - therefore politically in the south) has always had a large presence here. As visitors (two Brits) who have been attending from the school's inception forty years ago, we have always received a friendly reception including, (and maybe especially) during the years of 'The Troubles'). The only time we have arrived with any trepidation the year of the hunger strikes when the main street was bedecked with black flags - no need whatever - that year was particularly friendly.
Music has a great lesson in tolerance to pass on to the world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 04:59 AM

Paul,

I think you might be on to something there, though not perhaps for the whole of Ireland, at least in the short term. If Scotland becomes independent there won't really be a United Kingdom for unionists to be in a union with. So both parts of Ireland are going to have to re-think their relationship with the other countries on these islands, but particularly the North, I think. As will England, Wales and Scotland, of course.

If I were a unionist (and I'm not, but I've got a lot of sympathy for them especially since the Murphy commission into state-sanctioned child abuse in the Republic) I'd be looking at a much closer relationship with Scotland if only to keep the possibility of Anschluss by the 26 counties at bay. You might even get Rangers moving to Belfast. That'd be one decent team in Ireland, at any rate.

For now, there's only two ways you could get rid of the border in Ireland. One is unification (in which case Ireland would be the next Yugoslavia within 20 years) or re-incorporation of the 26 counties into the UK - which a surprisingly large number of Irish people seem to be prepared to contemplate these days. I don't see it myself. For one thing, what's left of the UK would have to be mad to take on all the social welfare payments left by the collapse of the Irish economy - especially since benefit rates are apparently higher in Ireland than in Britain. I heard somewhere that you can claim for communion dresses in Ireland but I don't know if that's true or not.

You could also end up in a situation where Irish MPs held the balance of power in Westminster. Of course, that would probably have happened if Ireland had stayed in the UK. In the long run, a solid nationalist block of Irish MPs might have gotten a better deal for the people of Ireland over the years than the political class they ended up with. Still, if if's and ands were pots and pans....

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 05:29 AM

'Music has a great lesson in tolerance to pass on to the world'

You know, I'd love to believe that but then I'm reminded of the time a few years ago when a young fiddler I knew in London (who came from Donegal and ended up living back there) told me she 'could tell a protestant by the shape of their nose'.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 05:31 AM

Sorry, that was me by the way. Point is that musicians aren't any better than anyone else. Ten minutes browsing the Mudcat should show you that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM

There are certainly plenty of intolerant songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 05:59 AM

"There are certainly plenty of intolerant songs"
On both sides - did you ever hear 'The Pope is a Darkie'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 06:19 AM

Or "ee aye, Paddy is a bastard" which you once described as "harmless", or 'Brave Orange Heroes of Comber', or 'Dollies Brae' or 'Lillibulero' even - the great, great, great grandfather of all such songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 06:37 AM

I did not feel it necessary to add "on both sides" but thanks for pointing out the obvious.
(Examples only given from one side obviously.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 08:04 AM

"the Murphy commission into state-sanctioned child abuse"
Get it right Scouse - neither the church nor the state "sanctioned" the abuse - they ignored it - in the state's case they just didn't believe it was happening (such was the grip on the minds of the nation at the time). I am the greatest critic of the clerical abuse - (look up my postings) but I believe theblame for this lay squarely at the door of the church - then and now.
Ironically, the affair has done us all a favour by loosening that grip - the church's power has waned to an unbelievable extent here - this has been admitted by church leaders as recently as the last couple of weeks. Still a long way to go but now they are fighting to keep their heads above water TBTG
In a way, this removes another obstacle in the way of unification - no more Papish plots and designs on our children's minds and bodies - wonder when this will be the case up in the North (east!)
BTW - I am not a Catholic - damn them all I say.
My father was excommunicated for fighting in Spain (a premature anti-fascist in the somewhat quaint language of the day) and he passed on his good judgement to me. Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 08:20 AM

Or "ee aye, Paddy is a bastard" which you once described as "harmless",
I do not remember that.
It seems very unlikely.
I think you made that up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

"I think you made that up Jim. "
I don't really think you are in any position to accuse anybody of being a liar at the moment Keith, do you - (see Homs thread)?
Please address your responses to us all - we are not the only contributors to this thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 10:56 AM

You will be... again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 11:08 AM

Not if I can help it Jeri - I am doing my best.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

You made it up Jim.
I never said that, nor would I.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 07:33 PM

Paul ,do not believe polls.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 08:04 PM

Fer crissake stop blaming everyone else. Sort it out amongst yourselves and bugger off and have independence. I fail to see how we could register any more strongly, our total indifference to the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 02:47 AM

Jim, I am glad you do not want another argument, but you can not make an accusation and just walk away.
I did not say it.
You put it in quotes.
Do the decent thing this time and admit you made a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 03:26 AM

Not sure whether you are referring to our stupid arguments Al, or to the subject of Ireland - I hope the former, otherwise it will be another tread Keith and I have managed to ruin with irreconcilable differences
Keith - no more - take our arguments elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 03:31 AM

Fine Jim.
I do not want to argue, but you accuse me of a quote I never made.
Clear it up and we are done.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 04:43 AM

sorry I was two glasses of whiskey ahead of the world at that point.

Perhaps it was me you were misquoting Jim. You can can mis quote me, I don't give a stuff. Understandable amongst friends.

There we are - end of argument...?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 05:29 AM

Fine Al - sorry, please don't misquote you again.
What kind of whiskey - note you spell it the Irish way - they can't make it or spell it (except Midleton, of course, and you take out a morgage to buy a glass of that).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 06:03 AM

You are very generous Al.
I think it is wrong to tell a lie to discredit someone.
Most people would object to being lied about.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

If I could I'd share a whiskey with you all, a fine Kentucky Bourbon that would leave you all singing Cypress Avenue with Van on the jukebox.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 01:06 PM

Well I don't Keith, because Jim and you are my friends and the thought of you being so dastardly is a remote one. So remote, I have put it in a paper bag, twisted the top, screwed it up, and thrown it away.

Sainsbury's Irish Whiskey....the cheapest single malt. £14.99 and most acceptable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHGdtpIX6cg

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 01:26 PM

Don't take the review too seriously. That stuff has never reminded me of bananas, except in a fairly obvious freudian sense....

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 02:33 PM

If it was a mistake Al, I would forget it too.
Was it a mistake Jim, or was it deliberate and malicious?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 03:53 PM

Well put it another way Keith - does Jim sound like a deliberately malicious man to you?

If he does, well its a bit a late in life for him to change his ways.

If he doesn't, well it might have been a mistake or an oversight....

Either way, I reckon you're flogging a dead horse mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 03:15 AM

Yes.
I will not mention it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 03:20 AM

Can we please stop this discussion on individuals now.
This thread is well and truely dead and buried because of the behaviour here - what is happening now is a somewhat vindictive burial service being read over the corpse - please stop it.
This time my only argument with Keith has been entirely confined to a discussion on Irish 'sectarian' songs - now it has been escalated to personal attacks.
I have requested that all points be addressed to the participants in general - please let that be the case, now and in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 03:24 AM

Cross posted
BTW Al
Many thanks for your efforts to mediate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:38 AM

Okay Jim!

Rule Britannia!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 07:11 AM

"Rule Britannia! "
Marmalade and jam,
Five Chinese crackers up your jaxie
Bang bang bang bang bang:
as we used to sing in Speke Secondary modern Boys School (before it was overtaken by John Lennon Airport as the world's most important cultural centre!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 01:51 PM

Jim, why not show your gratitude for Al's mediation by making a gesture to match mine?
You could say you made a mistake.
No shame. I make plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

Still wrecking threads Keith - please don't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 04:16 PM

This was a good thread Jim.
All friendly.
You spoiled it by accusing me , with quotes, of saying something I never did.
And now everyone knows you did it.
What have you gained?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 11:17 AM

EJ, I once visited the Jim Beam distillery.
They would not let us sample the product because it was a dry county, but I did develope a taste for it in the local bars.
It is available here but is not well known.
Jack Daniels is very popular with under 30s who mix it with cola.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 03:37 PM

Well, Jack Daniels' is a Tennessee Whiskey not a Bourbon Whiskey, Keith, which has not so much got to do with where they are distilled, but what the process is...the Tennessee whiskeys get a final charcoal filtration step (I believe). The tennessee types are a bit more like an Irish Whisky with the faintly sweet and very smooth character. Maker's Mark is a popular bourbon with that very smooth finish.
Funny how many dry counties are the locations of distilleries in Kentucky, a testimony to the still huge power of the fundamentalist churches in the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:13 PM

JD is useful - when you've drank about four proper whiskies - everything tastes like water. But at that point JD still tastes (a bit) like whisky, or even whiskey.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 01:22 AM

BAW, my sentiment exactly. I prefer Four Roses, Old Grandad, Eagle Rare, or Knob Creek, all of which are smooth drinkers but with a bit more of the righteous burn.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland doesn't want independence any more
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 05:03 AM

oh yes four roses - don't see much of that in England. High and smooth as a silk kite....