Origins: King of Rome (Dave Sudbury)

Subject: King of Rome
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

I've been listening to Iain MacKintosh's version of this and trying to work out the words of the first line.

According to the lyrics I've seen it's "Charlie was a do'e-fleein' man".....

Has anybody any idea whether that's correct, and if so, what it means. If not, what should it be?

Cheers.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Lester
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:54 AM

At a guess "Charlie was a Dove Flying man"????

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:04 AM

Aha! Obvious isn't it! Thanks Lester.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:07 AM

Maybe not the same song, but there are lyrics to a version by June Tabor on YOUTUBE.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:21 AM

This might seem an overly negative statment, but along with The Band Played Waltzing Matilda and A Mon Like Thee, this song is the worst piece of heavy-handed mawkish sentimentality ever conceived and as such is the bane of my Folk Life. It flies up when you least expect it, and shits its noxious excrement everywhere. And this from a man who once made a special pilgrimage to see the real King of Rome, who now resides, stuffed of course, along with the Derby Ram (also stuffed though sadly depleted) and lots of lovely Joseph Wright paintings in the Derby gallery & museum. At least it did in 1999 when I was passing...

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:24 AM

The phrase quoted above doesn't appear in Dave Sudbury's King of Rome as far as I can tell

Is this a different song?

Ray

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:43 AM

Ian has tried to Scotify the words. A " Doo " in Scotland is a pigeon, usualy racing/homeing pigeons. "He keeps doos" He keeps pigeons. Charlie was a doo fleein' mam. Charlie kept pigeons. Leading to the famous quote - "If thae doos don't come back, I'll sell thum".

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:46 AM

If you keep pigeons (or live in a farmhouse and are afflicted with flocks of them, as we are) you have plenty of the other kind of doo, too. Just sayin...

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:52 AM

Thanks for (most of) that. Yes, its different to what was originally written as sung by June Tabor.

Just interested.

Cheers.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:57 AM

The first line that I know goes :-

"In the west end of Derby lives a working man"
"He says,'I can't fly but me pigeons can'"

Jake

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

Did ye hear aboot the Glescae pigeon oan holiday in Switzerland?

He wis a Sghian Dubh.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 12:06 PM

Ouch! :-))

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 12:29 PM

Me daddie kil't me;
Me mammy et me;
Me sister Mary pickit at ma banes;
And buried me 'neath twa marble stanes;
And I grew and I grew intil a bonny wee doo-doo.

Stanley Robertson gave me that about 20 years ago and said as long as I lived I'd never forget it, or the tune, and I never have. I've met a few people who got it off Stanley too, and it's always the same. Anyone else?

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Morris-ey
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 12:31 PM

'Kin 'ell ms ashtray, its a song which you don't actually have to listen to.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 02:00 PM

You do though, because it crops up when you least expect it. There you are, happily sotted in your cups, engaged in a session of tunes & fine old songs in your favourite grotty old pub and the next thing someone pipes up In the east end of Derby there lives a working man and that's it, there's no escape. And no one sings it lightly either, they sing it as if it means everything to them, and want it to mean everything to you as well. I've always felt the same sense of nausea under the weight of its suffocating sentiment, though I rather quite like Reg Cartwright's telling of the tale and the story of the King of Rome itself is very moving; like I say I even went to see the bloody thing, but the song is just too much. I know I'm alone in feeling this way, that some even might regard it as unmutual heresy to say such things, but I'm fed up with suffering in silence. My love of old folk songs is largely because they're sentiment free; no messages, no subtexts, the occasional bit of circumlocution and metaphor to account for passages of filth, but generally free of any extraneous point as such, of which The King of Rome is especially heavy on; too heavy for a decent take off anyway...

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 02:33 PM

That's exactly how I feel about the bloody awful Fields of Athenry.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 03:29 AM

This is irrelevant. Iain Mackintosh was a great guy, a real gentleman. He died several years ago. I wish he was still around.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 03:40 AM

Derby hasn't got an East End however -

"The West End of Derby, England is an inner city area in the city of Derby, between Kedleston and Ashbourne Roads. It was previously an area of heavy industry, most notably Britannia Mill and Leaper Street Mill. Today, it houses a large number of the student population at the University of Derby. The area is surrounded by other Derby suburbs which are: New Zealand, Friargate and Little Chester (Chester Green)."

Fine version of this song by Sarah Matthews and Doug Eunson on
http://www.cothrecords.co.uk/d_and_s/d_s_cd.htm

Mitch

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 04:58 AM

The mistake wasn't my own; I've often heard it sung as The East End of Derby, which makes it worse, because I know it's the West End! So much for the Folk Process, eh?

Oh - and the Derby Ram isn't in the Derby gallery / museum either.

*

Never once have I criticised the writer of the song, much less it's singers. It wouldn't matter if Jim Eldon, Mark E Smith, Robert Wyatt or Julie Tippetts sang it, I'd still feel the same way. Last time I heard it, it was essayed to musical perfection by Hissyfit in a ballad session at KFFC - didn't change my opinion of the song at all.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 05:49 AM

Lester, you said you'd play this for me on Folkwaves.

I hear that you're almost ready to start on UK Folk Music.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 06:18 AM

If you find K o R too mawkish , try Malcom Austen's http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=31771#417604 , The Cat Who Roamed , as posted by Micca back in 2001

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 07:44 AM

Actually, the thing to do is to face my demons and start singing it myself...

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: breezy
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

can anyone come up with the words to 'Ring of Chrome'?

About a vehicle I believe

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 11:20 AM

Suibhne - you could always respond with 'A doo fell off a dyke'! I think Stanley Robertson has it on 'Rum Scum Scoosh' but I haven't got that CD.

Matthew

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 12:23 PM

Nice one, Matthew.

When I lived in Brancepeth Castle I used to get doos coming down the chimney regularly. One time, I got back to find doo shit everywhere - but no sign o' the culprit. A few days later there arose a bad smell, and, following my nose, I found the maggot-ridden corpse of the hapless intruder snuggled up in my Morrocan bendir, which has been known as the Doo Drum ever since.

Another time, tired and emotional having just realised just how hopeless it was being in love with a girl who lived 400 miles away, I arrived home, poured myself a very stiff Talisker, lit my fire only to have a blazing doo come fleein' doon the lum. I was hopeless; pissed, in tears, calling on my housemate (hurdy-gurdy supremo Steve Tyler as it happens) to put the hapless bird out of its misery. He rose to the occasion; sterling fellow that he was, but balked at my suggestions for pigeon pie.

I did write a surreal parody opf TKOR once, in which the West End of Derby was home to a visionary shaman / pigeon fancier who claimed one of his birds was the reincarnated soul of Pope John XIII (hence the name) and started making plans for Vatican 3, but it didn't come to much. Ho hum.

And what hapened to that long-distance girlfriend I hear you ask? Reader, I married her.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 01:33 PM

Here's a bit more info:

www.derbyphotos.co.uk/features/kingofrome

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 01:40 PM

Deserves a clicky:

http://www.derbyphotos.co.uk/features/kingofrome

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 05:01 PM

Once upon a time I too wrote a parody of KoR - The Queen Of Dewsbury, which was based on the true story of a nearby folk club that was forced to "roam" when the landlord of the pub which was its venue decided to host the local pigeon fanciers' weekly meetings in its folk club room... needless to say, this tale has not been sung for a while since, as its shelf life has now passed!

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I guess I must rather like the original David Sudbury song.
I have to admit however, that it (ie. the original song) has surprised my own initial expectations by remaining in my repertoire over some years; it flew out again without warning only last week, and shows every sign of homing in on other future occasions...

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: gnomad
Date: 07 Mar 12 - 12:58 PM

Unlike Suibhne, I like this song quite a bit and have even been known to sing it. I have no quarrel with songs that wear their heart on their sleeve, plenty of the best songs do just that.

I have a big gripe with those performers who make too big a production of such songs, laying themselves open to ridicule (although clearly that is their choice) and leaving the song itself begging to be parodied. Having recently heard a rather public butchery oh the KoR, I feel less guilty about my enjoyment both of good performances of the song and of its better parodies (Les Barker's 'I bought the King of Rome' is a cracker, and I quite like the one Micca posted).

A major factor in all such songs, I find, is how frequently they are encountered. One decent performance a year is enough for many. They are like salt in the diet, necessary but liable to be emetic if overused.

Subject: RE: King of Rome
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 10:26 PM

I know I'm late to this thread, but it's nice to learn that a few people actually remember Iain MacKintosh, who died five years ago last August.

Suibhne has obviously never heard Iain's version which was utterly matter-of-fact and free of sentimentality, especially live with just the banjo for accompaniment. The 'Scottifying', as he used to call it, played its part in that. Still, whenever I listen to the song in the car it invariably makes me choke.

I probably don't need to add that I hate June Tabor's rather overdone version!

Subject: ADD: King of Rome (Dave Sudbury)^^^
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:05 AM

KING OF ROME
(Dave Sudbury)

In the West End of Derby lives a working man.
He says "I can't fly but me pigeons can,
And when I set them free,
It's just like part of me
Gets lifted up on shining wings."

Charlie Edson's pigeon loft was down the yard
Of a rented house in Brook Street where life was hard,
But Charlie had a dream,
And in 1913,
Charlie bred a pigeon that made his dream come true.

There was gonna be a champions' race from Italy.
"Look at the maps, all that land and sea.
Charlie, you'll lose that bird."
But Charlie never heard.
He put it in a basket and sent it off to Rome.

On the day o' the big race a storm blew in.
A thousand birds were swept away and never seen again.
"Charlie, we told you so.
Surely by now you know
When you're living in the West End there ain't many dreams come true."

"Yeah, I know, but I had to try.
A man can crawl around or he can learn to fly,
And if you live 'round here,
The ground seems awful near.
Sometimes I need a lift from victory."

I was off with me mates for a pint or two,
When I saw a wing flash up in the blue.
"Charlie, it's the King of Rome
Come back to his West End home.
Come outside quick; he's perched up on your roof."

"Come on down, Your Majesty.
I knew you'd make it back to me.
Come on down, you lovely one.
You made me dream come true."

In the West End of Derby lives a working man.
He says, "I can't fly but me pigeons can,
And when I set them free,
It's just like part of me
Gets lifted up on shining wings."^^^

from the text accompanying This June Tabor YouTube Video

---

This YouTube Video has the original Dave Sudbury recording. I really like it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: clarification: King of Rome
From: Trevor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:59 AM

Errrmmmm...... Thanks!

Subject: RE: clarification: King of Rome
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM

Also flying through the air from Derby, Folkwaves returns on May 1st 2012 courtesy of UK Folk Music, still presented by Mick Peat and Lester Simpson.

Subject: RE: clarification: King of Rome
From: KHNic
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:48 PM

I seem to remember a variant which started In the West end of Hayes there lived a man, he said I can't fly but my moggy can. Possibly Malcolm Austin or Dave Houlden.

Subject: RE: clarification: King of Rome
From: SylviaN
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:35 AM

Sarah Matthews has recorded a magnificent version of the song.

Subject: ADD: Jack Kendal's Pigeons (David Nuttall)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 06:39 PM

From David Nuttall

I recently read a post on here which was about keeping pigeons. I wrote the following true poem and thought it may be of interest to others.

JACK KENDAL'S PIGEONS
(David Nuttall)

Jack Kendal was a pigeon man
He'd been a collier too.
His pigeons were his pride and joy..
He marvelled as they flew.

His lofts were like a palace..
Pink painted and unique.
His birds would wheel and soar and sway
Then Jack's loft they would seek .

The mornings they would see him
Put birds in baskets there
Then on the back of old Jack's bike
Their calling wrent the air.

And from South Elmsall then the train
To London , Scotland went
And even to the South of France
His precious birds he sent.

Then he went home to wait and fret
About them getting back.
His tin of corn he'd rattle..
A nervous wreck was Jack !

His fame it spread from his race success...
International, club and county
Gold cups and cash were his rewards
But not his real bounty.

To him it was a .miracle !
I, too, marvelled as a lad
To see and hear him call them home..
Jack...happy , proud and glad !!

But we were left heart- broken
When fools came in the night
And set the fire which killed his birds
It was a dreadful sight.

Undaunted, though, his lofts rebuilt
The effort took him years.
A thriving loft emerged once more
Replacing all his tears.

One morning as his birds flew out
Jack fell victim to the coal..
Those years of toiling in the dust
It sadly took its toll.

He passed away remembering
His birds fly overhead
They seemed reluctant to return...
Perhaps sensing he was dead.

Today when I see pigeons fly
I think of ailing Jack
I realise those days are gone....
It's just THE PIGEONS coming back.


David Nuttall