Talking During Singarounds?

Subject: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 04:56 AM

OK, so I went to a singaround at Tim's house this evening. Last time I was there, there was loud conversation in the adjoining kitchen, and I couldn't hear well enough to sing. I sat and stewed for a while, and then I spoke up and complained about the conversation - and Tim disagreed.

Tonight, I took along a book to read in case the conversation got to me again. It did get loud, but instead I moved next to my long-ago girlfriend Claudia, so I could hear her over the conversation. Singing next to her actually worked pretty well.

But it seems to me that loud conversation just wouldn't be tolerated in most singarounds/song circles. I'm sure that my hearing loss makes me more sensitive to extraneous sounds, but is this something that I should have to put up with?

Opinions?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:03 AM

I couldn't disagree with any of that, Joe. Talking whilst someone is singing is very rude!

Although, here in the UK, most of our singarounds are in pubs - so sometimes singers have to put up with noises from other bars in the pub: at best loud voices, at worst the pub jukebox.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:09 AM

I agree, Joe and Shimrod. And the worst offenders are usually the other performers!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:10 AM

Then there is the type who yak while someone else sings, yet they get pissed off if someone does it to them.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,Psychomorris
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:21 AM

Joe This is a difficult one as I am known to talk a 'little bit' when at the bar and I am an unaccompanied singer.I try to keep it low, although for some this still is a distraction.(There was a photo of the naughty ones in the corner by the bar). The difficulty for me,is not people talking or making noise, but the stoney silence that descends upon a folk club singaround. More akin to mortuary silence than one associated with 'enjoyment'. The famous Railway Hotel folk club in Portsmouth (UK)in the 60/70's was about as noisy a place as any bar could be, wether performers were on the stage or not. At times the audience were strongly informed of this. It must have been difficult for performers and there were many excellent ones. However it was part of the atmosphere along with the drinking, banter and smoking.
Years later I returned to the folk scene to find stoney silence. I still hate this atmosphere today.Lighten up folkies and stop being so precious.Psychomorris

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:29 AM

I did go to a pub sing in Ireland and another in England where the background noise was a bit distracting - but those were paying customers. When I go to a gathering that's exclusively intended for singing, I get annoyed.

I went to a birthday party for our choir pianist, and music was provided by a Celtic band. Two of our best choir singers got boozy and loud, and I got embarrassed - since some of the Celtic singers were friends of mine.

Seems to me that when somebody's singing, others should have the common courtesy to shut up. I really have a hard time singing against competition. The worst competition is usually out-of-tune instruments, but sometimes people talk louder and louder so they can hear each other over the singing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 05:51 AM

It usually depends whether you are part of the clique or not.

Outsiders and visitors don't always get the same order as the chosen few. Some singers are especially rude, in this respect, to those who don't belong to the inner circle.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 06:22 AM

Personally I draw distinctions between different settings. For open mikes (especially in pubs) I expect a fair bit of noise, since a lot of people will be there for other reasons; In pub sing-arounds I expect some noise, but less than in an open mike; And in a sing-around at, say, a folk festival, I expect quiet during the singing/playing. Plenty of exceptions, of course, and no matter the venue there seems to be one loud drunk at every second or third session!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 06:23 AM

I agree completely with you, Joe. Singing or playing in a public bar, with paying customers means that you have to put up with some noise. An event in a private house is a different matter, and you should be able to enjoy the evening for what it is - just singing.

As for stony silences at singarounds, ain't come across any yet!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GRex
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 06:50 AM

I totally agree with Joe and disagree with Psychomorris.
I have a severe hearing problem, having to wear two aids.
Unlike ones ears, hearing aids are not able to select or separate sounds but amplify every little noise.
One of the folk clubs that I attend is in a bar and I usually have a very enjoyable evening until the pub gets busy later in the evening,
then I give up.
I have enjoyed over fifty years of attending folk clubs here in the UK, both in Scotlnd and in England, and one of the reasons being the folk club etiquette of being quiet while someone is performing.

   GRex (Still singing and listening)

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 07:13 AM

We have a lady who chats through almost everything that is sung at our weekly Wednesday sessions. She gets on my tits. Thing is I'm not sure she actually realises she's doing it. she's an ex school teacher, and has a very piercing voice.. She also has a fairly deaf husband, which I don't suppose helps keep her volume down. I haven't yet got to the stage of talking when she sings, but the day isn't far off!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 07:35 AM

Talking while people are singing is bad manners. If a friend or two are over and we're working on something I expect others who drop by to be quiet. If they ain't I say something once and then ask (tell) them to take it outside. I had someone once who said, "But it's freezing out there" to which I replied "It'll be colder than that in here if you keep flapping your tongue."

At a playing gig it's my responsibility as a performer to keep the audience quiet. In other venues/situations, if the proverbial loud-mouths keep talking I quit playing. Life is quite simple in some regards.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM

It's the syme the 'ole world over. I remember bicycle races when some of the racers would noodle around on the course when the pack was bearing down on them. Sheesh!

Saul

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 07:54 AM

Everybody cheered one time when a rider riding a fixie couldn't get his feet out of the pedal cages quickly enough and fell over, ruining his nice new cycle clothes.

Saul

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 08:14 AM

We've had people over to our house for some song circling. Some folks do go to the kitchen to talk while the main event is in the living room. There's not too much sound carry over, because they tend not to talk too loudly. Ian Robb once wrote a column in Come For To Sing Magazine about the difference between social functions where music may occur and music functions for socialization may occur. An interesting distinction. Our local folklore society has a song circle in a bar back room every Wednesday. There, the tile floors make the acoustics suck, if someone talks, so we're pretty quiet.
    As was mentioned above, some people start talking as soon as music starts at some of these functions. When we were kids, my folks would have us play our french horn, or piano pieces for the relatives. Invariably, my grandmother would start to talk as soon as the first note was played. That sort of behavior can be annoying at a song circle. Not sure what you would call that syndrome.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 08:27 AM

Call-response, Phil.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 08:40 AM

I agree with Joe. If the evening is marked as a singaround then that it what it should be - not an excuse for a gabfest. Talking whilst someone is singing is the height of bad manners - it suggests that you don't respect the singer at all. I would be thinking of not attending such a session and letting the organiser know why.

I go to various events to hear the singers and that is what I want to do. I have had problems with acquaintances who want to sit and chat about what is happening in their lives while others are performing. If I really gave a damn about their gossip I would get together outside of the sessions and talk. It seems that some people just can't sit still and quiet for more than a few seconds.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 08:46 AM

IMHO if there are participants who need special consideration because what would be no more than a minor annoyance for others affects them badly may need to point out the problem. Many people are ignorant.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 08:46 AM

Call-response, good answer. I'll keep it in mind. Jacqui, I see song circles as a way to regain an attention span. I, too, find it annoying if people talk in the same room when someone is singing.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

There are a few non-negotiable rules for jam/singarounds...

1. Don't hog
2. Don't play too loud
3. Don't play off key
4. Don' disturb others
5. Don't play any Bobby Goldsboro songs

Can't follow those rules then stay the heck home...

B~

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 10:09 AM

Don't know about open bars or in-house sessions but in a pub where you have exclusive use of the room it's up to the person in charge to set the scene. To ask for quiet when the turns on, that no one enters or leaves the room whilst some one is performing and also that the organizer does not distract by trying to atract the attention of the next performer. When you announce the next singer you should tell the person singing after them so that they can prepare. Talking when somone is singing is very rude and you should not be afraid to risk offence by telling them.
You may make an enemy for life but tough.

Joe Nicholson

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 10:27 AM

IMO, the Joes are battin' a 1000 so far.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 10:50 AM

The only way that I have found to stop loud and obnoxious people is to retaliate with loud and/or obnoxious songs.

If anyone complains, you can say "Hey you were the ones that started being rude"

Here's a few suggestions. (some of which will be on my next CD)

Four Old Whores        
Cathewsalem
Horrible Song
Mayor of Bayswater's Daughter
Seven Dear Old Ladies
Maggie May
British Workman's Grave
Come Inside
Thrashing Machine
Country Vicar
Don't tear it
Roll Your Leg Over
If I was the marrying kind
Nobby Hall
My God How the Money Rolls In
O'Reilly's Daughter
Ancient and Old Irish Condom
Follow the Band

Let me know if you need lyrics.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 11:52 AM

The problem I can see with Joe's dilemma is that the talkers will say:"we're not in the singarround room, we're in the kitchen".    So you'd have to lay out rules before the singaround starts about talking in the kitchen.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 12:00 PM

An even worse outrage... somebody daring to bring along a musical instrument!!

A very cold welcome is assured.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 12:06 PM

"An even worse outrage... somebody daring to bring along a musical instrument!!"

A banjo, a bohdran, a...

Saul

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 12:35 PM

A banjo, a bohdran, a...melodeon

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

You deserve what ya get if you take a musical instrument to an acapella song session.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 12:42 PM

So the folk police have banned even musical accompaniment now?

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 12:50 PM

http://www.davierobertson.co.uk/songs-desperatecry.html

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 01:17 PM

The respect you are entitled to depends on where you are. In your own house/bar/pub you set the rules in someone else's they do.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 01:27 PM

If your event has an accepted etiquette then it is upto the leaders to enforce that etiquette. If the etiquette is vague or not established with the frequenters then you have to put up with any shit that comes along.

e.g., if you are in a public bar that is open to anyone then instruments, loud talking etc are all to be expected. The loud talkers may well be offended or put off by the singing, especially if someone insists on singing a Robin Hood ballad.

There are people on the folk scene who think it's okay to walk into a quiet local bar where the locals are enjoying a quiet drink, and start singing sea shanties at the tops of their voices; but not many thankfully.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 11:03 PM

I completely agree that it's rude to talk while others are singing -- if you're all in the same room.

Most posters thus far don't seem to have addressed the fact that the conversation is taking place in a different room -- which makes it a much trickier situation. And it seems this doesn't bother the host, which makes it even more trickier...

I'm assuming the kitchen doesn't have a door that can be closed (in which case, I assume there would not be so much of a problem). Is there perhaps another room/floor that "talkers" could/would be willing to move to?

Joe, do you know if there are others disturbed by the talking? If so, would Tim be open to a vote? Even if it did not disturb a majority of the others, perhaps (if there are a fair few) he'd be willing to reconsider?

If not, well... it's his house, and he's entitled to be/allow others to be inconsiderate (though it's certainly not "good form"). Guess you'll have to decide if it's worth continuing to attend. If you decide not to, then (as Jacqui said) be sure to explain why to Tim; let him know that you really like the people and the singing, but that all that talking in the kitchen is diminishing your evening's enjoyment to the point that you think it would be better if you -- regretfully -- don't attend in future. (I feel sure that if there's anyone in the world who can do this gracefully, it's you!)

Before you take that step, though, have you tried sitting at the end of the room furthest from the kitchen? There's a chance it might make enough of a difference to tip the balance for you, and if that turns out to be the case, maybe Tim would be willing to reserve a place for you there (if he knows you're planning to attend).

It's definitely a difficult situation... Good luck! (and please let us know what happens...)

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 11:53 PM

There is obliviousness and rudeness. I rather respect rudeness more, actually, because it just means a disagreement over etiquette. I can tell you I think you are rude, and you may disagree, but we may yet agree to conform to each other's etiquette, for the sake of good times while we're inhabiting the same place.

Obliviousness, on the other hand, can't be reasoned, it just *is*!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 04:12 AM

I've found I can cope with noise in front, but it's noise behind that makes it hard to concentrate on singing.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,nygelgoose
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 06:58 AM

We moved our Singarounds to a new venue because we were sick and tired of the local "geezers" not just being loud but openly mocking us infront of the bar staff.... we approached the bar manager and his staff later that same evening to see if there was anything that could be done and they had a " oh well, sorry, they're regulars so what can we do about it ?" .... we consequently said "ok then, f**ck you it we're going elesewhere, which we did, found somewhere the nexr day.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:25 AM

Maybe they didn't like a crowd of poncy (in their view) folkies coming in once a month and disrupting their drinking.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:36 AM

Be careful what you wish for.The late great Alf Richardson who used to MC the singing in the Blaxhall Ship had a technique of shutting any interupters up by hammering a crib board on the table and screaming 'Lovely order please, ladies and gentlemen' at the top of his voice. Since he was usually far nearer to the singer than the interrupter was, I suspect most would have preferred to cope with the latter!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:37 AM

There used to be a session in Rochester that suffered from that sort of "regular" but the folkie organiser was from 2 para, one folkie was a 6 foot 4 prison officer trained of course to restrain prisoners, and another was from special boat squadron so the problem went away after a quiet word.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:49 AM

Someone told me that a number of years ago there was a pub in the Lake District where the old men still occasionally sat round a table and sang what folk songs they could still remember. One night they did so when a local folk club were meeting in an upstairs room.

Yes. That's right. A deputation from the folk club came down and asked them to be quiet since they were disturbing the singing upstairs!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,nygelgoose
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:58 AM

Maybe they didn't like a crowd of poncy (in their view) folkies coming in once a month and disrupting their drinking.


maybe they didn't, anyway, f*ck 'em!

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 09:55 AM

"I returned to the folk scene to find stoney silence. I still hate this atmosphere today."

People go to folk clubs to listen to music. That means paying attention. What do you go there for?

If a folk club is taking place in a general bar then you must expect some background noise. Nevertheless I would expect those who have gone there for the music to pay attention. Yes, a bit of socialising with chat and banter is part of the evening, but save it for the interval or withdraw to the bar and try not to interfere with others' enjoynent.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

Then there's the lady who wants to talk loudly about her holiday in Spain and has a laugh like the proverbial hyena.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 03:19 PM

Forgive the thread creep Joe. But when running an open mic in a bar, we discovered that you didn't want to be playing when the local amateur theater group got through with their rehearsal. They'd sit in front and talk loudly. Also, forget it when the Lady's softball league came in for a quiet drink.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 03:52 PM

Joe,
Here's another angle. You say it caused you problems because you have hearing difficulties. It could well be that the people in the kitchen, or one of them, also had hearing difficulties, hence the louder voices.

I have a relative who is a well-known musician and has hearing difficulties. He has occasionally got into bother for speaking loudly in bars where people are singing. Luckily he can handle himself.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 05:16 PM

*reading thru all the above*

I can see that it seems to depend on the venue. In a pub, or as part of a larger gathering where there are non-singers, you often have a problem.

If you remember, Joe, at the couple of Open Sings you attended here at the FSGW, almost everyone who attends comes with the intention to BE part of the singing. 'Almost' no one goes anywhere or talks during a song. Now... it is often hard to control the chatter, analysis, joke...etc... between songs, but the several homes we go to are barely big enough for the singers, and I can't imagine anyone talking over the music.
It has occasionally been an issue at the Getaway with many people arriving and leaving different rooms.... and I have seen some fairly rude behavior... but you, Joe, know how all that goes.

I know that is it happened here at an event advertised as **singing**, I would say something, and if it continued, I'd leave. I suppose it depends on who it is, and whether they are 'regular offenders'.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 05:26 PM

Even more distracting is the presence of a "Gaggia" type coffee machine on the bar of the pub in which a folk club is held. Depending on the customer`s choice, the machine may erupt with a-gurling and a-hissing such that one could believe the very Devil has entered the place.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 06:12 PM

Thanks for setting that one up for me John!


Espresso Machine (Tune: Spinning Wheel ) - (Bert Hansell) D


Last Wednesday night at the famous Steel City
It came to my turn to sing a short ditty
In the midst of a song of a lass and her lover
The Espresso machine goes
Shhhh, shuff, shuff, shuff, shweeee shoooooooow shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

My turn came again, thought I'd try something loud
A song of our flag that would make us all proud
When I got to the part where the flag started waving
Shew shew shew shew shew
Shhhh, shuff, shuff, shuff, shweeee shoooooooow shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Now came my last chance it was nearly nine thirty
A song that is funny, perhaps a bit dirty
I got to the part where they all roar with laughter
When that blasted machine goes

Copyright Bert Hansell, 2004

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

My outspoken friend, Dave Mallett was doing a concert in a local restaurant, and up back there were two or three people talking. He put up with it for a while and suddenly he stopped and asked, "Why did you pay to come here and talk? you could stay home and do that for nothing." I applauded rather loudly.

Subject: RE: Talking During Singarounds?
From: GUEST,Psychomorris
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 05:18 AM

Ok I give in. It is apparent from the responses to Joes upset that the majority of you woulk like to sit in stoney silence what ever the venue. I understand the need to respect the singer/muscian. Scenario:
So I travel a few miles to my local folk club, arrive as it begins 7.45pm. sit through umpteen performances, perform myself. Have a short break, including raffle and go around again until it finishes 11.15pm. As you wish, I should only talk during the break as the performances are continuous.(The club I attend has a very healthy regular number of performers).I like a good sing so join in as many songs as invited to. I then go home. Enjoyment? relaxation? relationship building? or just precious folkies in their own individual world/space. Sung their song or done their bit and then go home. Surely being with people is more than that?Being at a folk club is more than that? Psychomorris