mellow banjo

Subject: mellow banjo
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 03:46 PM

I have always loved the sound of Granpa Jones's banjo. Can anyone tell me how he got that mellow sound?

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Vixen
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 03:51 PM

For what it's worth, prior to a couple of years ago, I didn't realize that some banjos sound different. The big difference I discovered was that some have resonators, and some don't. The ones without resonators have a lovely mellow sound, and the the ones with resonators have a bright metal sound, also lovely...but then, I've always liked banjo music.

V

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 04:11 PM

Vixen, there is far more to it than the resonater which tends to project the sound and make the instrument sound louder than having the most effect on the tone.

I am not an expert on this but the main issues are the actual construction of the instrument and the presence of and type of tone ring used is probably the biggest factor. A bluegrass player for example is likely to want an instrument that is made in the style of the Gibson Mastertone to get the type of sound that they require.

An old time player is likely to prefer an open back instrument but may also prefer an instrument live the Vega White Ladyie for the sound that they want to get.

Another big influence on the tone of a banjo is the head. A blue grass player is likely to use a modern plastic head which produces a loud clear sharp tone. An old time player may well prefer a calf skin vellumn which produces a quieter but more mellow sound or a fibreskin head which I believe is a modern attempt atmaking something that produces a sound similar to the animal skins.

I play "celtic" dance music on a tenor banjo and people seem a little less fussy over the tone of the instrument as they are with say bluegrass. The instrument that I chose was built along the same lines as a Gibson Mastertone flathead model. Tone is a very personal thing and I love the sound that mine produces. This link (even though it is a bad recording) my banjo should give you an idea of what the sound that I chose.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Bert
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 04:20 PM

You could always drop by Midas.

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Arnie Naiman
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 05:33 PM

I think grandpa was a frailer - which is just downpicking ususally one finger and thumb (often sone without the use of any pick) which would produce a mellow sound due to the playing style. Kyle Creed also produced a wonderful mellow sound on his homemade banjo, although he did use a metal pick on his index finger I believe. Chris Coole goes to the nail lady who puts on sturdy fake nails on index and second finger - which produce a fantastic mellow but clear tone on his open back Tubaphone banjo.

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Vixen
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 06:24 PM

Jon--

Thanks for the info--I really enjoyed listening to your banjo. You're right--it does have a soft and mellow tone.

As my dad is always saying "every day's a school day!"

V

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 06:42 PM

Hi Kendall. Louis (Grampa) Jones has always been one of my favourite musicians. He didn't record a lot with guitar but you should hear him play and sing in Jimmie Rodgers' style. Superb - and a great yodeller too.

As to his banjo sound: Every picture I've seen has him playing a resonator Vega. Sometimes a VegaVox, other times a Deluxe Vegaphone. Either of these models will give a LOT of sustain - which an open back banjo won't. He played downstrokes with his index finger and then "brushed" with the back of the nails of his other fingers before hitting the fifth string with his thumb. Occasionaly at the end of a phrase he would play it: Index, thumb on 2nd string, brush, thumb on 5th string. The style that many folks play today replaces the "brush" with a second index finger played note. It's less "mellow" and more "percussive".

Because I play a lot of "3 finger" style, I also use a resonator (on a Japanese knock-off Gibson Mastertone from the early 70s) so when I frail, it sounds closer to Grampa Jones, than say Mudcat's Arnie Naiman (who is one of my favourite banjoists). Anyway, hope that's a bit of help. It's in the "brush and the resonator".

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:09 PM

Rick, I could be wrong on this, but don't both of the Vega's you have mentioned use the "Tubaphone" tone ring?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:19 PM

Sure do John. Although I think the "VegaVox" that Grampa played in the 60s or 70s had a different design. (bigger maybe?) By the way please excuse me. I just did something that annoys me no end when someone else does it. By accident I skipped your very informative post, which covered the subject nicely. Not because of haste - more stupidity. I do think the fact that Grampa used the "brush" contributes to the "mellowness" that kendall mentioned though. A "style thing" rather than a "tone thing". Come back Kendall, ya got us going!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:32 PM

Good point Rick, the method used to strike the string and the implement used (in my case it's a Gibson Heay pick - to some 5 string players, they might brush down on using the back of their finger nails - rather than plucking..) most certainly does have an effect on the tone that is produced.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:59 PM

Grandpa was using a Gibson Mastertone the aftenoon he gave me an impromptu hour & a half (or 2) lesson before his '66(?) concert at the Old Town Schl. of Folk Music--Chicago. But that's because he used the banjo I had been picking on when he walked into the shop downstairs of the school that afternoon. For the concert he used his own banjo---and I think it was a Vega. It did have a resonator.

A week or so later an LP called "Grandpa Jones' Yodeling Hits" showed up -- a gift from Grandpa. I've still got the note that was with it from someone at Monument Records with the unlikely name of Jo Fagg.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Les B
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 08:37 PM

Another thing that may have contributed to Grandpa Jones' sound is that he often tuned up a whole step to open A. I read this somewhere and then happened to catch him on Hee Haw (TV show) not long afterward. When I capoed my open G tuned banjo up to the 2nd fret, I could play along with his uncapoed banjo perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:47 PM

My favorite clawhammer player, Dwight Diller of West Virginia, just sent me his instructional video; the banjo on the box looks like a Vega Tu-Ba-Phone, but Cedar Mountain Banjos of Brevard, North Carolina, makes a Dwight Diller line of banjos with wooden pots, no tone rings. He told me he used to carry some of the banjos on the road with him, use them in concert, and sell the one he had played, and use another in the next concert.

Quite a few good open back banjos are available these days (most clawhammer players use them, I'm told): Deerings, Bart Reiters, Wildwoods, and Chanterelles seem to be the most widely available. I have a Wildwood Tu-Ba-Phone Minstrel which I love. A great sounding, very playable instrument. Chanterelles are available fretless as well as fretted, and Bart Reiter seems to have rights to the Whyte Laydie style name, although their Whyte Laydies are as likely to have Tubaphone tonerings as Whyte Laydies. There are also some less expensive ones available from Deering, Gold Tone, etc.

If you want a good look at the variety of new and used banjos available, check out Elderly Instruments: They have several dozen for sale at any one time, and their website has pictures of most of them.

www.elderly.com.

For more on Dwight Diller, check out

www.dwightdiller.com

and for the Dwight Diller banjos, check out Cedar Mountain Banjos at

www.cedarmtnbanjos.com

--seed

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:54 PM

A couple of things I forgot: the banjo without a metal tonering gives a real old timey sound (metal tonerings weren't added until late in the 19th century). Dwight plays one (a Dwight Diller, of course) in the "Just Banjo '99" CD--and if you want to hear what a beautiful, mellow banjo sounds like, check it out.

--seed

Subject:
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:54 PM

I love the sound of the tubaphone as much as anything...Somewhere I read that Grampa Jones played a ball bearing mid 20's gibson{resonated} but gave it up for a Gibson open back so he could do tricks with it...I think this is from George Gruhen's book..I've been wrong before...Being the stage man he was I'm shore he owned ALL of the above mentioned instroments!!!! Just latly I got a 1926 Ball bearing Mastertone ,took off the resonater ,put on a fiberskin head and am completly in love!!!I mostly frail like a rythum guitar player giving background for fiddling.... I've used the Tubaphone as a main instroment for years and it works so well with and without a resonater...I would be hard pressed to pick between the tuaphone voice and the early Mastertone for realy good frailing at a square dance...The claraty comes from the tone ring{some volume as well}but alot of the mellow thing is from the drum-head ..Ofcorce I agree the biggest presence comes from the hand of the player...What a great frailer Grampa Jones was and what an insperation to us all!!!! My best to everyone, Guy

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 11:53 PM

Well, guess prob'bly I plowed up a snake this time!! thanks for the input. I did forget to mention that I do some claw hammer, no picks, I've used a vega tubaphone, also had a Samick from Korea. Great banjo but way too loud for claw hammer. I guess the only thing I havn't tried is the skin head. Years ago I wrote to ask Grampa about his banjo, but, he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. He offered to sell me one of his, but, fool that I am I didn't take him up on it. I also borrowed a ODE from Ed Trickett, another great banjo, but again, too loud. Don Stover told me Grampa's banjo had no tone ring.. I just tried a Deering.. too "stringy" sounding... and too loud. Oh well, I'll just keep listening to Kathy Barton. She is great.

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 01:37 AM

Frailing close to the bridge makes any banjo ring but clawhammer OVER the end of the fretboard is more clunky - Tu Ba Phones set up well are a great sound but it is rare to find an original these days. Common practice is to replace the neck - for a wider fret board and to repair warping.

Granpa Jones, Uncle Dave Macon ......Tom P, Frank Proffit, Pete Seger, Mike Seger, Dwight Diller, Alec Slater, Sarah Grey ...Doc Watson! ... this is a small smaple of styles out there.

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 08:25 AM

When I saw this thread name I thought, "Now there's an oxymoron!" ... and when I saw the original request for a comments on a mellow sounding banjo, I thought, "if you want a melllow sounding banjo, buy a guitar!"

But these are flip comments, and I would never answer a serious question with a flippant answer!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 09:44 AM

Les, Les, ya put us all to shame! Of course Grampa played in open A! And if that won't make the banjo ring forever, nothing will. We should also mention Dave (Stringbeans) Akeman. Another great stylist who like Grampa made his living as a commercial entertainer and consequently didn't get discovered by folkies til near the end of his career. Sadly, during their years on Hee Haw neither String nor Grampa were allowed to show what they were best at: Banjo playing. Instead we had week after week of Roy Clark mugging through Cripple Creek. Never forget folks, that in the world of entertainment WE are a minority taste.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Arnie Naiman
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 10:00 AM

Anyone interested in all things banjo should definitely check out the Banjo-L web site at http://idt.net/~zepp29/bnjolist.htm

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 12:34 AM

Ok gang I had it all wrong!!! The banjo in Gruhn's book ,the one thats a Gibson open-back used for tricks belonged to Uncle Dave Macon..Ah well my opolagies to all...I never remember anything right the first time...Yours GUy

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:59 AM

I don't listen to much banjo music....although I like the Bluegrass fingerpicking style of playing. Other than Earl Scruggs and soundalikes, the only other banjo player and singer that has ever caught my ear was Morgan Sexton. Anybody heard of him? Would his style of playing be considered "clawhammer?" I always thought he had never recorded (or never been recorded) but I just found out that a CD of his music is available here.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Arnie Naiman
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:14 AM

No question in my mind that Morgan Sexton played beautiful banjo music. He was primarily an old time style finger picker, but used some frailing in his playing too. I believe he played a Gibson Mastertone (not usually the choice of an old time player.) The recording contains many wonderful songs, but you'll have to listen very closely to get the words, because his southern accent is really heavy duty and he had no teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: mellow banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 04:51 PM

Amen to Morgan Sexton. Arnie (who turned me on to him ) has a Canadian accent and all of his teeth.