BS: Guns & laws in the US

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:23 PM

this thread has actually been one of the better discussions we have had. More civil then our usual :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:24 PM

"...not smart enough to take on the gun nuts? "

Or afraid of what 'some' gun nuts might do if they could identify the 'smart' ones.

Those "cold dead hands" bumper stickers are serious to some of them

lookee here

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM

and... lookee HERE

serious stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:36 PM

Yup and how about if I poke around and find some of the radical shit from the extreme environmentalists that think setting fire to houses in California is ok to preserve the Eco-system. That actually happened. Ya know you can cherry pick anything if ya want to .. if you want a serious debate then we can have one .. but if you want to use over zealous crackpots as a global example of all gun owners, you are pissing up the wrong tree

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:42 PM

Bill... yes it is VERY serious. Have you seen any of the news coverage of Egypt? Libya? Syria? Sudan? and countless others?

The general public has a basic right to defend themselves. At the most basic, British common law says that I, as a weak, old, frail man can use a baseball bat to "even the score" against a young and strong aggressor. US law says one can use a gun if required. I do NOT see anything wrong with that... with LEGAL gun ownership.

Come on eh? Legal gun ownership is NOT the problem. In fact, it protects even those who do not own guns because criminals are deterred by legal gun ownership.

If all the antis got together and formed the NARA and pushed for REASONABLE gun laws that addressed real problems (in the US... we don't have your "easy access" problems in Canada because our laws actually are logical and well applied... even tho that may change with long guns ONLY) with aquistion and ownership... Bob's yer uncle.

So, when are you gonna start up the wheels of motion and get the job done? Come on... there is money to be made. Form the NARA and you can be pres and get a good salary and save the good ol USA. Win-win.

Sorry to make light of it, but, in the end, I do find it all a bit of a joke. Albeit a very sad joke that allows so many people to suffer sinmply because nobody understands the big pic or the compromises that benefit everybody. Seriously... the compromises and understandings benefit EVERYbody.

Surely, it couldn't be any worse?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:45 PM

If you want to live in a country with a total ban on gun ownership try Mexico .. no one in Mexico is allowed to own a firearm ... worked out well for them right ... just watch the news. Yup they get them from us in the US but they are not allowed to own any gun. Working great right. guns ain't going away, what we do is try to control what we can that makes sense .. anyway I am done here

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:53 PM

"Or, are the antis, including responsible gun owners, who appear to be in the vast majority, just not smart enough to take on the gun nuts?"

So how is it "inane" to ask, if "the vast majority" of people who like having guns are sensible people who don't like what the NRA does, why don't they just get back into it and work to turn it round so that it actually reflects the actual wishes and interests of gun owners?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:05 PM

Yeah, Dan. So many threads, so many posts, so little understanding. Pretty much the end for me too.

For all of youse who don't understand what drives the NRA and won't stand up to them, posting your complaints ain't buttering the biscuit. Do something about it. Start the NARA... BUT... do it in a reasonable manner on accounta that there "cold dead hand" thing eh? They fuckin mean it! And they got guns up the ass.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:13 PM

Bottom line???

No, the NRA doesn't make the laws... They just buy the folks who do and have every politician in the country, President Obama included, in fear of them opening their va$t war che$t of ca$h to defeat anyone who suggests even the slightest sane legislation to make us safer from being shot by a wacko...

Bill's suggestions aren't radical... They are quit sane... No "taking away your gun" unless you are a wacko...

Zimmerman has a wacko history... Treyvon Martin would be alive today if we had sane gun laws... We have no laws... None... And here's the worst thing about this: The NRA thrives on people getting shot by wackos... Great for gun sale$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:25 PM

Ok... one last post because I didn't see McGrath's last post.

Are you fuckin serious? You said, "if "the vast majority" of people who like having guns..."

That is NOT what I said.

I am going to actually say gnightgnu now because what I want to say to McGrath is not very nice but everyone who read his last post will understand what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:40 PM

I "cherry pick" items relevant to the topic of the thread. If extreme environmentalism were the subject, examples of that would be in order... just to clarify what we must be aware of and eventually deal with.

I was against Carrie Nation busting up saloons, against the Ku Klux Klan, against the extreme rabid 'feminists' in the 70s, against 'tree huggers' trying to totally stop logging.... and now I am concerned about those who brandish guns against those who would regulate guns.

I try to be a reasonable, moderate, pragmatic guy who at least SEES all sides of a question, even when I end up on one side. My basic goal is making sense....and I do NOT decide too early what I consider sensible.

I used to 'tend' toward getting rid of guns... but that now seems both unreasonable and impracticable. I may change my stance again as things develop. Meanwhile, obvious 'rotten cherries' will be noted and picked.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM

Sorry, gnu - I read "responsible gun owners, who appear to be in the vast majority" as meaning that the vast majority of gun owners are resaponsible gun owners, which seems very likely. If you meant something else I misunderstood your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 11:47 PM

Ok, Bill now I get what you meant. But I gotta tell ya. I don't feel any safer with a criminal pointing a gun with 10 rounds in it vs a criminal pointing a gun with 15 rounds in it. That is the kind of laws we get and many anti gun people say yes good job ... when in reality it is a meaningless stupid law that fixes nothing. So for each of these they pass and claim victory, more criminals keep getting more and more illegal firearms because no real action is taken for whatever reason. It ain't about more laws, it is about applicable laws and that has been largely ignored. No one is happier then the criminal when they restrict lawful owners of anything. Criminals would be delighted to have a no gun at all law. Then they can run amuck like Mexico being the only ones who have them. Laws don't apply to them, ya gotta lock up their sources for getting them. So passing a couple hundred more useless rules does nothing unless their sources for weapons are dried up by serious and knowledgeable law makers, nothing will change and the NRA will continue to fight everything that comes down the pike, including the good ones. anyway done with the thread and rant

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 07:19 PM

Face it, ol'ster... There doesn't seem to be too many sane policies for controlling guns that you agree with...

Another, "yeah but" rebuttal...

Let's just say that I believe that the very modest and well though-out policy changes that Bill has outlined are a baby steps... Not T-Rex steps... The VaTech shooter would have killed more people with a bigger clip... Same with the Gifford's shooter... Same with Columbine...

Why defend unlimited clips???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 07:31 PM

I don't think he 'defended' large clips... he was just pointing out that 10 is not much safer than 15.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:00 PM

"he was just pointing out that 10 is not much safer than 15."

Yup. I seen a guy with three clips taped up in a configutation that allowed him to approximate a belt feed on an M16. Common practice in the military. Now, the Canuck made M16 actually works well (Bro told me that the yanks he dealt with would pay big money to trade M16s with them) and, the version (A6? I can't recall) fitted with a 200 round drum, it's a nasty piece. But, Dan's point is about bullshit legislation made to appease and not to do any real good.

That's way thread drift. But, this thread is defunct anyway IMO. Ran it's course. Only rehashes many other threads with countless posts and opinions ranging from thoughtful to just fuckin stupid. Fact is, the gun laws in the US suck. Why ? It's a mystery. The gun laws in Canada are taking a step backward. Why? Even MORE of a mystery. Especially when you add on the fact that we don't have a constitutional right to own firearms. The regression of our legislation guarantees the right of stupidity. Especially by our politicians.

It's a sad day here in Canuckistan witnessing the demise of the registry (especially because it means the POL* and PAL* will be gone too... unacceptable to me). Never thought I would say that. Maybe I am growing older and wiser too?

* Possesion Only License; Possesion and Aquisition License.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:02 PM

Okay, Bill...5 more dead... Oh??? Times 3... That's 15 more dead...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:06 PM

Yes... we know.. ANY large clips are serious. 5 shot 22s are serious... people carrying hand guns who have no need for them are problems. But Dan's point is well taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:00 PM

Self-protection and protection against tyranny--those are the reasons for the Second Amendment to the U.S. constitution. And it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That's pretty straightforward. Gun legislation is illegal, at least at the federal level. States can try it, but technically they violate the Second Amendment when they limit the right to keep and bear arms. We need to roll back gun laws, not beg for new ones.

Recently the Department of Homeland Security ordered 450 million rounds of .40 caliber hollow point ammo. Hollow points aren't target rounds, they're killers. And that's just ONE ammo order they've placed.

And then there are the new DHS SWAT vehicles, and some of you want to give up your means of self protection? Why don't you just take a razor to your balls and be done with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:12 AM

What's the weather like up there on the Planet Zog, or whatever other loony-tunes planet you live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:28 AM

I just find it strange that a country which holds itself up as a beacon of democracy and the rule of law doesn't feel it can rely on those for "protection against tyranny". Are Americans really so distrustful of their system of government and legal structures that they feel the need to arm themselves against them?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:32 AM

I guess that's what I was meaning, Howard, but you said it far more eloquently!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:42 AM

Ask Trayvon Martin if he feels that a limited magazine would have made him safer.

One bullet in the wrong hands = One dead schoolboy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 01:03 PM

The point is, Bill, that the Gifford's shooter was wrestled down while attempting to reload... I understand ol-ster's point about being concerned about that first bullet, however...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:20 PM

I agree with the five shot clip rule (here it's 5 for rifles and 3 for shotguns for obvious reasons)in a way but not all the way because only an amateur can't reload a CLIP weapon fast enough to avoid being overpowered. Or, someone who can't count. When it goes "click", that's a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 05:36 PM

I can't be arsed to read all this again.

There's a long piece on it all in today's Guardian.

It does rehearse the amazement of the rest of the world at the US fascination with deadly toys.

It also points out the unspoken corollary to the NRA mantra.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

But guns make it easier and a moment's anger terminal.

The US gun lobby needs to grow up and put away the symbols of playing Cowboys and Indians.


It also points out that the NRA is white, ageing, and heading for being a minority demographic any time real soon now. Dr Strangelove anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 06:03 PM

Actually a 45 cal hardball does more damage then a 45 hollow point. Why because the bullet only travels at 900 ft per second and won't open anyway. No target shooter I know uses hollow points, too expensive. We make our own wad cutters

What we have today with our laws is like this example:

What if we said, because of all the drunk drivers we will pass a law that the drinking age is now 30, next we will limit the size of beer sold in cans to 8 oz only ... However, one day a week, lets say Saturday, the bars and lacquer stores do not have to card anyone for any alcohol purchased

you see that is the way we have it now for gun laws. We do this other stuff but let the shows go and have no standard for training requirements, and let the states do what they want .. and wonder how gangs get fully auto AK-47's

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 06:26 PM

Richard... you got any stats on that "moment of anger" thing? Got any stats on how many people have knives in their kitchen? Got any stats on crimes committed with knives? or baseball bats... or anything else?

The USA is not fascinated with guns. That is a simplistic statement which is unsupprtable.

The USA has a problem with supporting reasonable and effective gun laws. Doesn't anybody outside of the USA and Canada realize just how MANY guns exist in our countries? LEGAL guns... LONG guns. MILLIONS and MILLIONS. I sm only 55 years old and I put food on the table with a gun when I was a lad. Millions in NA still do so. Whay can't any of you antis get that?

We are on two VERY separate topics here... legal guns for lawful purposes and guns that people don't need and shouldn't have, especially criminals. The NRA is right. Guns don't kill people. People who want to ban ALL guns kill people.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 11:01 PM

Name calling's a good sign in a debate. You always want your opponents to revert to infantilism. But you forgot to throw in something about tin foil hats and black helicopters. That was posted on YouTube today. The video's only 47 seconds long and shows a black copter flying low over Chicago.

Chicago's a perfect argument in favor of gun ownership. The city's been virtually disarmed. VERY prohibitive gun laws in Chicago, yet gun crime is through the roof. Law-abiding citizens can't own guns, so they have to fight shooters with baseball bats.

Chicago's mayor is Rahm Emmanuel, whose father was an Israeli terrorist. He helped found Irgun, a terrorist organization. Those poor people on the ground in that video get shot at by criminals and terrorized from above by terrorist rulers. They need guns.

Emmanuel has recently claimed broad new police state powers, so look for something to happen in Chicago before long. Perhaps the bullshit "race riot" meme that's been planted by the Obama team will be played out in Chicago next November. Close election, staged race riots in Chicago, and the town is shut down on election day. Illinois' 20 electoral votes are held hostage until things can be sorted out. JFK's slim victory was attributed to the rigged Chicago vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:39 AM

I'm stunned and amazed - I find myself in total agreement with Richard Bridge.

Some (but by no means all) American people seem to live an excess-testosterone-driven-wild-west-fantasy-world-lunatic-obsessional existence. I count myself extremely fortunate that my only obsessions are my wife and my guitars - all sane, all peaceable, and all very pleasurable.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM

'The USA is not fascinated with guns. That is a simplistic statement which is unsupprtable.'




Article from yesterday's Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:05 PM

Sorry, I posted the link to the article this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:36 PM

Just couldn't read the whole article. It became tedious and obvious early on.

I think youse should find a better choice of words. Maybe something like, "There are so many people who live in abject poverty, who use heavy drugs to deaden the pain of their dire standard of livng, who... fill in whatever else... that have access to guns and will use them in crimes when they have to do so to survive that MANY people feel personally threatened and arm themselves in order to be able to defend themselves.

Like I keep saying, guns do not kill people but poor, uneduated, unemployed, homeless, hungry people with easy access to guns kinda do. Ya wanna cut down gun related crime, fix crime. How? Spend yer dime raising the standard of living. Is it gonna happen? Read on.

Let's take a walk down the road to hell. For the millionth time, I say "the rich subjugate the poor". Why, you ask. Simple. They need to force the poor to join the military to blow shit up and kill people so the rich can stay rich by exploiting foreign resources. I think it started about, ooooh, thousands of year ago, to be exact.

Gun laws? Nuh-uh.

Fascination with guns? Nuh-uh.

Scared shitless? Yup, big time.

And, as far as the gun-homicide rate. Yeah. So what? I contend most of these are criminals killing competing criminals and criminals killing people for profit. As for some guy killing the bitch for fuckin around on him or the like, I contend he woulda used that hammer if he was a bad shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 05:41 PM

vis a vis the Ted Nugent thread: If anyone needed proof that the current NRA (I, like olddude was a member back in the day & quit in disgust many years ago) is an organization of the assholes, by the assholes and for the assholes its their letting lunatic jackasses like Nugent, Limbaugh et. al. speak for them. The old NRA never would have allowed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:12 PM

Interesting to see what Bill Cosby thinks, esp. as he lost a son to a random shooting fifteen years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 10:24 PM

The loss of his son was horrible. As I seem to recall, his son was changing a flat tire on his Mercedes when a criminal (a poor immigrant? I can't recall) demanded money and shot him because he was "moving too slowly".

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 11:29 PM

Yes ... the U.S.A may be a country of cowboys who are fascinated with guns. It it may be a country that is somewhat liberal when it comes to gun control.

With that in saying may I remind all you kids that there is a trial currently in process in Norway where a complete horrific madman is on trial for killing 77 people. Most of the victims were children, shot with a gun. Norway is a country that does have strict gun controls, and a population that is not so fascinated with weaponry.

Hatred and violence is not a plague that affects only the U.S.A. Gun controls cannot prevent the killing.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 11:47 PM

If you don't want people to have guns, don't make the fucking things.

Once ya realize that the projectile leaves the barrel due to gas expansion, it's easy enough to make a gun, at home, in your spare time.

America is at once the best and worst country in this world. The people do little to slow down their government when times are financially good; that is, when the US controls the world economy. When times are bad, as now they are, the same people who were quiet become vocal.

The reason the US controlled the world's economy is because the US people allowed the mass production of nuclear weapons, the development of terrible chemical and biological weapons, and their saving grace is that they did it in the name of freedom, the same freedom they lost when Executive Orders stripped The Constitution. The US is the last place I'd look for answers regarding guns. The USA does NOT set the standard, nor does it set the bar. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:55 AM

'Norway is a country that does have strict gun controls, and a population that is not so fascinated with weaponry.'

And that is why, the one off extreme situation of a madman wreaking havoc, they have the low murder rate they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:52 AM

Look. If you have a gun it is easier to kill someone than if you don't.    If it was just as easy to kill someone with a knife or fists, why would soldiers carry guns? Guns are for killing.

Restrict guns and killing is harder.

It is so simple anyone (except, it seems, the NRA lobby) can understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:24 AM

Spot on Richard. It's so fuckin' simple innit?
None is so blind as he who will not see.
It must be dreadful for those people over there, living their lives in such abject fear and terror that they feel the need to have a gun to wave in other peoples' faces. I've never felt that fear over here, never. Why? Because I know that, if I'm in a crowd of a thousand people, the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:23 AM

"Because I know that, if I'm in a crowd of a thousand people, the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero."

Tell that to the recent mass shooting victims (in public places) in Norway, Belgiuum, France.

That Norwgian madman has admitted he took his 'attack' training on video games.

As I have been saying all along here in this thread, it's not just an American problem.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:08 AM

What don't you understand about "the the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero", or "I've never felt that fear over here, never."?

Your problem is that you're so used to every Tom, Dick and Harry having firearms, and so used to running around scared shitless of every shadow, you can't begin to conceive of a life where those aren't the case. That's the life we have here - I've never seen a gun, except in the hands of farmers (shotguns usually, for vermin control and hunting small game), gun-club members, the police and members of the armed forces. And our murder-rates (like those of Norway) are a fraction of those in the US.

How the nation brilliant enough to put men on the moon can't understand a simple correlation between gun-ownership and gun-homicide rates beggars belief (or would beggar belief, if it weren't perfectly obvious that it's not a case of can't understand, more a case of 'don't wanna' understand).

As I said, none is so blind as he who will not see. You just proved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM

"And our murder-rates (like those of Norway) are a fraction of those in the US."

Homicide rate per 100,00 2010
North America ... 4.7
Europe .......... 3.5

List of countries by intentional homicide rate

As I say, none is so blind as he who see's only perceptions.

biLL a Canadian guy

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

The U.S. is a very large country ... larger than Europe .... may regions in the U.S. have a murder rate equal to GB on the other hand many parts of Europe (which have strict gun controls) have a murder rate equal to many regions in the U.S. ... so to say the whole of the U.S. is murder central in the global sphere is rather biased ... that perception is based on the the cowboy gunslinger image that is presented in the mainstream media, movies, T.V. programs etc. .... yes, the U.S. has many problems these days and we all like to point our fingers at that them, but they as a country are not more violently inclined as a people than many other parts of the world.

Having walked through the city of Boston many times I know there are sections of the city that I feel safe waking through and then there are sections that I feel more vulnerable and know I should be careful .... not unlike walking through the cities of Glasgow, Madrid and Munich.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:11 PM

I was talking specifically about the US vs. UK and Norway. Not the same thing as North America vs. Europe. We call your stunt "Moving the goalposts", and it doesn't wash.

I don't have the numbers to hand right now (some of us are working) but the last check I made which covered, I believe, year 2005, the per capita gun-homicide rate for the UK was <1/10 of the US rate - working from memory we had approximately 50 or 60 deaths, which pro-rated by population should have produced around 350 in the US - the US actual was in the region of 3,600. Go figure, it's not a giant leap, provided you're willing and able to accept the resulting correlation (which obviously the NRA would deny as a matter of principle).

Now I'm out, before you start waving your gun at me.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:29 PM

btw, just to let you know .... I don't own a gun, I have never owned a gun and have no intentions of ever owning a gun .... but I do have a shillelagh ... ;-)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:33 PM

""As I have been saying all along here in this thread, it's not just an American problem.""

It's a matter of scale.

In Europe such events are so rare that the chance of any individual being shot is rather less than the chance of winning the Euromillions lottery.....twice!

In the USA mass shootings at schools are approaching the status of an annual tradition, and citizens don't feel safe unless they carry weapons.

It's a bigger and more frequent problem in the USA than in almost any other "civilised" nation.

The nation with the most guns per 100,000 population has the highest murder rate.

And please don't try the old Rwanda, Somalia etc. argument. These are not even semi civilised, and don't really rate the description "nations".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:41 PM

Poor debating technique, if unintentional, dishonest if intentional, trying to conflate gun homicide rates with total homicide rates.

Meaningless correlation!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:52 PM

I just want to say I am not against gun controls .... I'm for them .... what I'm trying to say is don't expect gun controls to have much affect against murders. Humans are much, much, more dangerous then guns.

now ... back to the debate

Preceptions again .... Western Europe, most of whose countries have much tougher gun laws than the United States, has experienced many of the worst multiple-victim public shootings.

mass shootings at schools ... Where have the worst school shootings occurred? Nearly all of them in Europe. The very worst one occurred in a high school in Erfurt, Germany, in 2002, where 18 were killed. The second-worst took place in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, where 16 kindergartners and their teacher were killed. The third-worst, with 15 dead, happened in Winnenden, Germany. The fourth-worst was in the U.S. — Columbine High School in 1999, leaving 13 dead. The fifth-worst, with eleven murdered, occurred in Emsdetten, Germany.

and then there was the Norwegian tragedy last summer.

biLL