BS: Guns & laws in the US

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 11:23 AM

""I know of no one that thinks the gun show law as we have now is a good idea.""

Everybody who sells at them and everybody who buys Dan.

Now I don't know how many that is but it's a long way from nobody.

The worry is that a very large proportion of buyers are probably the very people that nobody in their right mind would allow to own guns, including your drug dealers and gang members.

At least our drug dealers have to find illegal sources for their guns, which is comforting given that almost all of our gun crime is drug related.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM

for those who don't understand what I was saying about safety training. One area of the training is securing the firearm so kids won't get their hands on it in their home. That is why I used that example. We need that law

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:39 AM

In pretty much every state that I have hunted in, you are required to have either military experience, or a hunters safety course before you can get a license. No one I know thinks that is a bad law. Hunters were the ones that wanted it. We don't want to go in the woods with people who don't know what they are doing. So , if you are going to buy a gun, require a safety course or some other proof of safety training. Nope, not for buying the weapon. Then we read about a little kid getting hold of the gun and killing his brother by accident. You see a law requiring safety training isn't bad and most everyone would stand behind it I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:27 AM

That's exactly what they think about their political opponents, Backwoodsman. They think they're brainless. I know...I've heard some of these fellas on the Right talking to one another about "liberals". God, do they ever detest liberals. And they honestly believe that everything that's wrong with the world is due to either liberals...or Muslims.

But the Muslims they're so worried about are not liberals. ;-) In fact, they are extremely conservative in their own cultural terms.

You see, politics works this way:

1. It's the Great Divider.

2. By dividing people up into "us and them" consciousness, it conquers them...and it enriches the elite who rule over them.

3. The elite is normally composed of bankers, industrialists, and arms manufacturers. These people get rich off conflict. Wars and fear of war are primary sources of income for them. Increased expenditure on surveillance equipment and organization also profits them.

4. So...the more they can get different groups of people to hate and fear each other, the more money they can make.

5. The creation of separate political parties and other separate factions aids greatly in this endeavour, by setting up various groups of people in permanent opposition to one another.

6. All those groups of people can easily be convinced that the other groups of people ARE the real problem.

7. They are not. The elite that rules over them all is the real problem.

8. It was that way in Roman times. It is that way now.

9. And there probably isn't a lot you can personally do about it...except stop believing in it, and thereby giving it your support by default, just because you don't know any better. Stop believing the standard propaganda line that makes you hate and fear your brother!

I stopped believing in it quite some time ago. If enough people stopped believing in it, the human status quo would have to change.

It is never going to change by hating and despising your brother and characterizing him as "brainless". He's not brainless. He's just been coached and prepared within a different belief group than you, therefore he has become susceptible to a different line of political propaganda. And that serves the ruling elite, because as long as they can keep you and your brother fighting each other they have you right where they want you...under the big political thumb, dominated, and controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:24 AM

In all my ranting and raving on this threat that is all I was trying to say. Give us some laws that we all can get behind. Then if the NRA or anyone wants to argue, they will be looked at as what they really are. I know of no one that thinks the gun show law as we have now is a good idea. In the 60's they went from, "look I got this great duck call at the gun show" to now where it is as far from the sportsman as you can get. Walk in and it looks like a military weapons cache.

Simply change the law to read, if you sell at a gun show, ya gotta go through the checks and balances like buying from any licensed dealer... Now you can still have your shows, but we will be a hell of a lot safer

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:07 AM

Somebody already took away their fuckin' brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:38 PM

Kinda hard to get anywhere with the NRA... Anything and everything that smacks of any regulation, sane or not, will get the same over-the-top knee-jerk reaction by the NRA...

Obama wants to take away your guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:06 PM

"Start with REASONABLE and LOGICAL gun laws that everyone can get behind. Laws that the NRA cannot defend against. Like we have in Canada."

Canada bans assault rifles. The US lifted that ban under Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 09:50 PM

Simple. Start with REASONABLE and LOGICAL gun laws that everyone can get behind. Laws that the NRA cannot defend against. Like we have in Canada. Go slow. Pick the battles. Don't stack the deck against yourselves... ya can't win that way.

Otherwise, yer just gonna lose... yer just gonna make it harder to get something done.

Ban guns? Fuck me! Like that's a solution that some of you think will be succesful in this situation? Giver yer heads a shake and see if they rattle.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 09:35 PM

Bottom line is that you can chart America's decline with two striking stats:

1. stagnated wages

2. number of handguns

Way past time for a conversation about both... Way overdue!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:14 PM

Im glad Ilive in AUSTRALIA

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 05:40 PM

Well Monsieur Wisyeeweeg, as gnu says the "poor in the U.S. don't equate to the poor in the UK" ... and that is a given. Britain's war on poverty is much more effective than the U.S.(Britain being a more politically socialistic in it's approach). An offshoot of the large population of the poverty in the U.S. is the formation of gangs. Gangs are the only way out for many. From what I can gather 60% of all gun murders in the U.S. are gun related. One can also say this 60% is a probably directly related to drugs.

So .... if 60% of the murders in the U.S. is gang related (and bear in mind the much larger population of the poor in the U.S. as compared to |Britain) this would mean 2.82 % of the total U.S. ratio of that 4.7%. This would reduce the amount of murders in the U.S to a ratio of 1.88 (somewhere in the same ratio as Western Europe)

From this I would say decriminalization of drugs would probably have a greater impact on decreasing gun violence than arguing about gun legislation (though personally I would like to see some sort of gun control also). If the U.S. had more of a socialistic approach in governing it's population this would also have an impact.

Gun crime will also rise in Western Europe as we see more and more of government austerity programs. Poverty will increase and along with that is the hatred, fear and intolerance of minorities.

As per the horrific tragedy of mass murders in schools and such ... well I have already alluded to this in previous posts.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:27 PM

JtS... "Where might they be if the social safety net here was as good as the U.K.'s?"

You bet! The poor in the US don't equate to the poor in the UK. By a longshot! (pun intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:49 PM

"Where might that 4.7 figure be if guns were at the same per capita level as in the UK."

There are certainly other factors.

Where might they be if the social safety net here was as good as the U.K.'s?

What if there was not excessive violence in our media? Remember when all Clint Eastwood did in Hollywood was soot and punch people on screen?

What if we were all like Looney Tunes characters and the only consequence of a gunshot was a black face or having our beaks spun around?

beak

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:34 PM

And still no answer from Number 6 re. conflating gun homicides with Wiki figures on total homicides.

Where might that 4.7 figure be if guns were at the same per capita level as in the UK.

3.7?....2.7?.....maybe 1.7.

Let's try to keep discussing like for like. Even allowing for drug related shootings and Dunblane Ralph Moat etc., gun homicide in the UK is very low.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:19 PM

You point Jack is very well taken my friend

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:11 PM

Olddude, with respect to your opinion. I have to point out a couple of things. A very small percentage of kids from every type of home are murderers. A lot of murders are committed by middle class people, Colimbine and VT come to mind off hand. I am for strict regulation of guns designed to kill people, hand guns, assault rifles, sawed off shotguns. I am all for the well regulated private ownership of hunting equipment.

The standard for the carrying of a gun, in terms of safety training, insurance and safety regulation should be at least as strict and for the operation of a motor vehicle.

I don't think it is viable to try to control gun violence by the imposition of values. But that is just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:02 PM

It has a higher murder rate than every European country but Russia and Asia


Should be

It has a higher murder rate than every European country but Russia and the former Soviet, Baltic states.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:01 PM

The USA is 38 times as big as GB in area, 5 times the population. You were wrong in the numbers Olddude but the actual figures make your point stronger.

look at the chart on this page.

If you compare the USA to Western Europe the USA has a murder rate of about 4.8 per 100K the average murder rate is 1 or less per 100k

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:55 PM

One of the reason I like the show swamp people is it reminds me of growing up. Troy after his hunt comes home. He has a sea of family and friends all at his house to celebrate his success. He holds his granddaughter and says this is what it is all about, family, friends. Look how God blessed us. I also believe if you drove up to his house at that moment he would set another plate at the picnic table for ya.

Now his kids grew up with firearms, he has an arsenal. Do I think any of his grand babies are going to walk into a school and start shooting. Not .. ever .. the kids have values, conscience, respect of life and others .. because of their family .. Their guns are tools for their way of life.

We have to address this broken society and get back to what you see at Troy's house to fix this violence i think.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:41 PM

Sorry ... I meant Western Europe population 412,787,xxx, U.S population 313,388,xxx ... ok ... I'm still wrong. I think it is fair to compare the whole of the U.S. to Western Europe rather than a specific European country.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:41 PM

Amos
YUP so right and it keeps happening all over or there would be no market for the illegal drugs.

Oh when I said twice the size of GB I meant land mass not population

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:40 PM

"These are new events in this nation. Roll back to the 50's or early 60's and it didn't occur."

Howard Unruh

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:37 PM

THere are many ways of escaping the pain, if that is a clear goal. Drugs is one of the least viable. There are psychological sollutions, physical sollutions, emotional solutions, and so on.

The "lesson" of dramatizing or acting out mental and emotional pain by lashing out physically is a really dumb lesson, reinforced by alcoholics and movie producers. In real-life terms it is about the dumbest answer to be found.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:37 PM

One of the stupid talk shows late at night when i couldn't sleep, had a young woman on doing DNA tests for the "baby daddy" .. 6 guys and none of them were the father. Six guys all around the same time ... I mean this is more common then we think. What parenting skills on the 5 other kids she has also is going on there. My guess the kids grow up on their own, no values, do whatever they must to survive. And somewhere down the pike get an illegal weapon.

Society starts at the family level, when it ceases to be a family with real values, then how could other human life be important.

anyway my rant is over

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:28 PM

What we really have is a total breakdown of values in many area's of our society. We have broken homes, drugs, poverty, latch key kids, no guidance, no adults passing on traditional values. If a kid only knows that the answer to every problem in life is violence, then how can we expect to not see the school shootings. These are new events in this nation. Roll back to the 50's or early 60's and it didn't occur. What has changed? no parents who care, no adults anywhere who care, kids then seek what they need from other sources I.E. gangs. They learn to take what they need. No work ethic, no guidance, no God, no country believe in nothing, have nothing, escape using drugs and then you have what we are seeing today. I have no answers only can figure out the cause. If there were no market for drugs, we would not have this. Why do we have a market. It is escape .. when your life is so meaningless that the recourse is to escape. Hence the profits .. hence the violence

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:12 PM

"The U.S. is a very large country ... larger than Europe .... may regions in the U.S. have a murder rate equal to GB on the other hand many parts of Europe"

The US population (about 300 million) is less than half that of Europe (780 million). Europe is a little larger than The USA even if you count largely unpopulated Alaska.

If there is a region in the US of comparable population to Great Britain with less than twice the murder rate, I don't know what it is.

I think that among G20 countries the US has the most murders apart from Russia. It has a higher murder rate than every European country but Russia and Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:06 PM

I'll also throw this one inot the debate for my British friends ... Americans have their Clint Eastwod and 'Gran Torino', the Brits have their Michael Caine and 'Harry Brown'.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:58 PM

These shooting and killing are really a new event in our country. they just didn't happen back in the 50's and early 60's. The gun show law was on the books forever. Those shows were all about the sportsman. Shotguns, duck calls, etc .. At that time gun laws were sparse. Hell you could buy anything war surplus from a mail order catalog and cheap. No problems. However as the drug folks got organized, more and more killings. The gun laws go tighter. The killing rate got worse, so more gun laws, more killings. The criminals figured our really quick they could buy all they need and more from the shows. More and more laws that did nothing to help. If sensible laws are passed, it will be much harder for them to get weapons. Sportsmen support sensible laws, but we don't support stupid and meaningless restrictions that make no one safer.

If we address the huge profits from illegal drugs, you will also fix the gun violence. No sportsman is doing the drive by shootings.
My home town in Pennsylvania, there is no crime, there is no killings. There is no drug problems either. Everyone is armed to the teeth, because everyone hunts for food, fishes, grew up with firearms, loves God and takes care of one another. Most doors are never locked.And if a stranger needed help they would do anything to help them. It is the culture. It is the way they were taught. Hard work, God , family, friends. But those people can defend themselves. I like all the kids back there could shoot before I could ride a bike. Safety training starts in the womb I think. We just never had an issue of any type and still don't when I go back home. It is the nature of the society and how people grow up. Drugs have not taken hold there because there would be no profit .. few if any would buy. Other parts of the country, not so ... America is a huge country. My county alone is twice the size of Great Britain. Populations are diverse and cultures are different as is the problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:52 PM

I just want to say I am not against gun controls .... I'm for them .... what I'm trying to say is don't expect gun controls to have much affect against murders. Humans are much, much, more dangerous then guns.

now ... back to the debate

Preceptions again .... Western Europe, most of whose countries have much tougher gun laws than the United States, has experienced many of the worst multiple-victim public shootings.

mass shootings at schools ... Where have the worst school shootings occurred? Nearly all of them in Europe. The very worst one occurred in a high school in Erfurt, Germany, in 2002, where 18 were killed. The second-worst took place in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, where 16 kindergartners and their teacher were killed. The third-worst, with 15 dead, happened in Winnenden, Germany. The fourth-worst was in the U.S. — Columbine High School in 1999, leaving 13 dead. The fifth-worst, with eleven murdered, occurred in Emsdetten, Germany.

and then there was the Norwegian tragedy last summer.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:41 PM

Poor debating technique, if unintentional, dishonest if intentional, trying to conflate gun homicide rates with total homicide rates.

Meaningless correlation!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:33 PM

""As I have been saying all along here in this thread, it's not just an American problem.""

It's a matter of scale.

In Europe such events are so rare that the chance of any individual being shot is rather less than the chance of winning the Euromillions lottery.....twice!

In the USA mass shootings at schools are approaching the status of an annual tradition, and citizens don't feel safe unless they carry weapons.

It's a bigger and more frequent problem in the USA than in almost any other "civilised" nation.

The nation with the most guns per 100,000 population has the highest murder rate.

And please don't try the old Rwanda, Somalia etc. argument. These are not even semi civilised, and don't really rate the description "nations".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:29 PM

btw, just to let you know .... I don't own a gun, I have never owned a gun and have no intentions of ever owning a gun .... but I do have a shillelagh ... ;-)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:11 PM

I was talking specifically about the US vs. UK and Norway. Not the same thing as North America vs. Europe. We call your stunt "Moving the goalposts", and it doesn't wash.

I don't have the numbers to hand right now (some of us are working) but the last check I made which covered, I believe, year 2005, the per capita gun-homicide rate for the UK was <1/10 of the US rate - working from memory we had approximately 50 or 60 deaths, which pro-rated by population should have produced around 350 in the US - the US actual was in the region of 3,600. Go figure, it's not a giant leap, provided you're willing and able to accept the resulting correlation (which obviously the NRA would deny as a matter of principle).

Now I'm out, before you start waving your gun at me.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

The U.S. is a very large country ... larger than Europe .... may regions in the U.S. have a murder rate equal to GB on the other hand many parts of Europe (which have strict gun controls) have a murder rate equal to many regions in the U.S. ... so to say the whole of the U.S. is murder central in the global sphere is rather biased ... that perception is based on the the cowboy gunslinger image that is presented in the mainstream media, movies, T.V. programs etc. .... yes, the U.S. has many problems these days and we all like to point our fingers at that them, but they as a country are not more violently inclined as a people than many other parts of the world.

Having walked through the city of Boston many times I know there are sections of the city that I feel safe waking through and then there are sections that I feel more vulnerable and know I should be careful .... not unlike walking through the cities of Glasgow, Madrid and Munich.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM

"And our murder-rates (like those of Norway) are a fraction of those in the US."

Homicide rate per 100,00 2010
North America ... 4.7
Europe .......... 3.5

List of countries by intentional homicide rate

As I say, none is so blind as he who see's only perceptions.

biLL a Canadian guy

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:08 AM

What don't you understand about "the the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero", or "I've never felt that fear over here, never."?

Your problem is that you're so used to every Tom, Dick and Harry having firearms, and so used to running around scared shitless of every shadow, you can't begin to conceive of a life where those aren't the case. That's the life we have here - I've never seen a gun, except in the hands of farmers (shotguns usually, for vermin control and hunting small game), gun-club members, the police and members of the armed forces. And our murder-rates (like those of Norway) are a fraction of those in the US.

How the nation brilliant enough to put men on the moon can't understand a simple correlation between gun-ownership and gun-homicide rates beggars belief (or would beggar belief, if it weren't perfectly obvious that it's not a case of can't understand, more a case of 'don't wanna' understand).

As I said, none is so blind as he who will not see. You just proved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:23 AM

"Because I know that, if I'm in a crowd of a thousand people, the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero."

Tell that to the recent mass shooting victims (in public places) in Norway, Belgiuum, France.

That Norwgian madman has admitted he took his 'attack' training on video games.

As I have been saying all along here in this thread, it's not just an American problem.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:24 AM

Spot on Richard. It's so fuckin' simple innit?
None is so blind as he who will not see.
It must be dreadful for those people over there, living their lives in such abject fear and terror that they feel the need to have a gun to wave in other peoples' faces. I've never felt that fear over here, never. Why? Because I know that, if I'm in a crowd of a thousand people, the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:52 AM

Look. If you have a gun it is easier to kill someone than if you don't.    If it was just as easy to kill someone with a knife or fists, why would soldiers carry guns? Guns are for killing.

Restrict guns and killing is harder.

It is so simple anyone (except, it seems, the NRA lobby) can understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:55 AM

'Norway is a country that does have strict gun controls, and a population that is not so fascinated with weaponry.'

And that is why, the one off extreme situation of a madman wreaking havoc, they have the low murder rate they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 11:47 PM

If you don't want people to have guns, don't make the fucking things.

Once ya realize that the projectile leaves the barrel due to gas expansion, it's easy enough to make a gun, at home, in your spare time.

America is at once the best and worst country in this world. The people do little to slow down their government when times are financially good; that is, when the US controls the world economy. When times are bad, as now they are, the same people who were quiet become vocal.

The reason the US controlled the world's economy is because the US people allowed the mass production of nuclear weapons, the development of terrible chemical and biological weapons, and their saving grace is that they did it in the name of freedom, the same freedom they lost when Executive Orders stripped The Constitution. The US is the last place I'd look for answers regarding guns. The USA does NOT set the standard, nor does it set the bar. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 11:29 PM

Yes ... the U.S.A may be a country of cowboys who are fascinated with guns. It it may be a country that is somewhat liberal when it comes to gun control.

With that in saying may I remind all you kids that there is a trial currently in process in Norway where a complete horrific madman is on trial for killing 77 people. Most of the victims were children, shot with a gun. Norway is a country that does have strict gun controls, and a population that is not so fascinated with weaponry.

Hatred and violence is not a plague that affects only the U.S.A. Gun controls cannot prevent the killing.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 10:24 PM

The loss of his son was horrible. As I seem to recall, his son was changing a flat tire on his Mercedes when a criminal (a poor immigrant? I can't recall) demanded money and shot him because he was "moving too slowly".

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:12 PM

Interesting to see what Bill Cosby thinks, esp. as he lost a son to a random shooting fifteen years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 05:41 PM

vis a vis the Ted Nugent thread: If anyone needed proof that the current NRA (I, like olddude was a member back in the day & quit in disgust many years ago) is an organization of the assholes, by the assholes and for the assholes its their letting lunatic jackasses like Nugent, Limbaugh et. al. speak for them. The old NRA never would have allowed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:36 PM

Just couldn't read the whole article. It became tedious and obvious early on.

I think youse should find a better choice of words. Maybe something like, "There are so many people who live in abject poverty, who use heavy drugs to deaden the pain of their dire standard of livng, who... fill in whatever else... that have access to guns and will use them in crimes when they have to do so to survive that MANY people feel personally threatened and arm themselves in order to be able to defend themselves.

Like I keep saying, guns do not kill people but poor, uneduated, unemployed, homeless, hungry people with easy access to guns kinda do. Ya wanna cut down gun related crime, fix crime. How? Spend yer dime raising the standard of living. Is it gonna happen? Read on.

Let's take a walk down the road to hell. For the millionth time, I say "the rich subjugate the poor". Why, you ask. Simple. They need to force the poor to join the military to blow shit up and kill people so the rich can stay rich by exploiting foreign resources. I think it started about, ooooh, thousands of year ago, to be exact.

Gun laws? Nuh-uh.

Fascination with guns? Nuh-uh.

Scared shitless? Yup, big time.

And, as far as the gun-homicide rate. Yeah. So what? I contend most of these are criminals killing competing criminals and criminals killing people for profit. As for some guy killing the bitch for fuckin around on him or the like, I contend he woulda used that hammer if he was a bad shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:05 PM

Sorry, I posted the link to the article this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM

'The USA is not fascinated with guns. That is a simplistic statement which is unsupprtable.'




Article from yesterday's Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:39 AM

I'm stunned and amazed - I find myself in total agreement with Richard Bridge.

Some (but by no means all) American people seem to live an excess-testosterone-driven-wild-west-fantasy-world-lunatic-obsessional existence. I count myself extremely fortunate that my only obsessions are my wife and my guitars - all sane, all peaceable, and all very pleasurable.