More stuff about the circle of 5ths

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 10:46 AM

Having had two semesters of (less than illuminating) Music Theory classes and after playing guitar for scores of years, I have stumbled upon this enlightening and relatively easy to digest explanation of the Circle of Fifths. It now begins to make sense to me – especially the mathematical background of it. It occurs to me that maybe others here might appreciate a better understanding of it. Please excuse me if this has been posted before: https://youtu.be/_UxzDjU3-hM

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 09:41 PM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 02:25 AM

Chord Chucker, Cool..Now, (or shortly) I'm going to post some other stuff I (we, in some cases), that is COMPLETELY different from what you've heard...some LIVE hot jazz, some movie soundtrack stuff with vocals that will make your knees buckle!
..but for some reason, I just love the stuff you've been listening to, too..though, 'Bittersuite:Joy' has a version with real Timpani's, French Horns...and other stuff...but that one(YouTube's) is cool, because its ALL LIVE..and just one guy(me) doing it....oh, and I'm looking forward to hearing something with you on it, as well...
.....and KEEP IN TOUCH!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 05:59 PM

GfS--I did listen, a couple more times, in fact, and began to hear what you mentioned. I tend to listen to stuff that interests me repeatedly, because the more familiar you are with something, the better you understand it.

I liked to practice this way, too, which made certain people dislike me intensely. A singer once told me we should stop rehearsing a tune because she was bored with it. I said when you were bored with a tune it meant that you knew the notes but hadn't found anything that interested you in it yet, and so you needed to keep working with it.

Anyway, I enjoy your work, and your stimulating conversation. Hope to hear more...

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 05:28 PM

This seems to be doing the same sort of thing as josepp's diagrams, only better...

Dmitri Tymoczko: Chord Geometries

... but with no greater relevance to any music I am likely to play.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 03:50 PM

I must be seeing things. There was a weird post from somebody in Philippines that has seemingly vanished. Did anyone see it? Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up meth.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 03:16 PM

Carl Sandburg says the Eleventh Commandment is:

Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery.

Don Firth

P. S I believe Sandburg said, "The Eleventh Comnandment includes all of the previous ten."

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 03:14 PM

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 03:05 PM

Dick Greenhaus: "Isn't the eleventh commandment
"Thou halt not beat a dead horse"?"

Oh, I thought people beat a dead horse, because they already flogged their dolphin to death, and it was time to move onto bigger things.

GfS

P.S. Hey, Chorh Chucker, Did you ever check out what I was telling you?

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 01:07 PM

Isn't the eleventh commandment
"Thou shalt not beat a dead horse"?

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 08:09 AM

//////Now that you have the hang of the root notes, let's fill it out. Since this song is ii-V7, that means the ii is a minor chord and V is a major chord. Do the first bar as a D minor chord: D-F-A-D. And the second bar as G-B-D-G. Third bar--E-G-B-E. Fourth bar--A-C#-E-A.//////

I forgot to add that after this you would play D-F#-A-D for one bar then Db-F-Ab-Db for one bar and THEN go into the turnaround.

Another thing that adds some pizzazz to the mix is to invert chords. So if you're working your way higher and higher, you don't want to go too high or it sounds ridiculous, so you invert a chord to get it back down into the low registers. So you'd hit the root up high, drop down to an octave lower for the 3rd and 5th and then hit the root again only an octave lower. This would work well with starting E minor at E2 then inverting the chord so that you can play the A major starting at A1. But it's up to you how you want to do it. Again, it takes practice to get used to it but it comes pretty intuitively once you understand why you're doing it.

The point is when you hear a guy walking, he's not just guessing intuitively what note to play next; he's mapping it out in his head just before he plays it--note by note. So when you hear him cycle back through a part a second time and it was different than the first time and you wonder how he did that, all he did was vary between root-5th, root-3rd, root-7th or root-root. Or maybe he played a full 7th chord but inverted it. IOW, he knew what notes were available to him and chose which ones to use and consciously chose different ones than he played the first time. But he wasn't just guessing. It takes experimenting though because certain combinations don't sound that good and you learn to avoid those. But that is basically how it is done.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 03:29 AM

Time to pack it up, josepp--the bar's closed. Next week, I wanna hear "Caravan", with a drum sola:-)

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 06 Apr 12 - 04:24 PM

Ok, still toying around with ii-V7, I'll show you how to walk a bass for "Satin Doll". I've heard this song down in every possible key so it doesn't matter which key I do this in. If you want to do it in another key, use your circle of 5ths to figure out the appropriate chords.

The basic melody is the part where Eckstine sings:

"Cigarette-holder, which wigs me
Over her shoulder, she digs me
Out cattin', that satin doll"

Actually, the original melody by Ellington was an instrumental. Johnny Mercer added the words later. Of the vocal versions, I don't think anyone can match Eckstine.

So, anyway, the first bar on the bass is in 4/4 time as DD/GG repeated twice making two bars and there's your first line.

The second line is EE/AA repeated twice in two bars.

The third line is D (in one bar)/ Db (in one bar) and that ends the first verse and there's a kind of turnaround that goes:

CC/BB (one bar), BbBb/AA (one bar). Try it on a bass, if you have one. You can try it on a regular guitar on the bass strings--doesn't matter.

But that's just one root note per beat, you say. How do we walk it? Chords!

Now that you have the hang of the root notes, let's fill it out. Since this song is ii-V7, that means the ii is a minor chord and V is a major chord. Do the first bar as a D minor chord: D-F-A-D. And the second bar as G-B-D-G. Third bar--E-G-B-E. Fourth bar--A-C#-E-A.

Now at the turnaround, you can play C-G-B-F#-Bb-F-A-E--one note per beat. Since you're playing two chords per bar, you have to shorten them by playing root-5th as above BUT you could choose root-3rd:

C-E-B-D#-Bb-D-A-C#

OR you can play straight root notes OR ANY combination thereof including 7ths. Here's one I do:

C-E-B-F#-Bb-Ab-A-C#. Notice the 7th of Bb instead of the 3rd or 5th. You play that on the G-string and then hit the A-string open and then play C# on the A-string. The 7th sounds out of tune with the rest of it but the A to C# straightens it back out very nicely and it's a cool effect. Hey, what do you know--you're walkin' it!

7ths also work very well at turnarounds. Play in major and minor triads and then hit a 7th as you go into a turnaround and see what a nice little variation that throws into your walk. It works especially nice if you have a fretless bass instrument and slide that 7th down to whatever note it resolves to for the turnaround.

Play around with it. That's the secret to walking the bass--knowing your chords. Now there's more to the song than I showed here but just play around with what I showed you and you might be able to work out the rest on your own.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 10:30 PM

Ornette Coleman links musical phrases together in every possible way in the space of a piece. He might play in C for a bit really hugging as the tonic but then suddenly he starts playing C as the 3rd of Ab. Then he'll switch to C as the 5th of F. Then he might play a type of line that only Ornette uses--I've never heard anyone else do it unless they were disciples of his--but he plays a line that has no meaning, no key, no center, no message. Its only purpose is to make the listener (and the fellow musicians) forget what he just played so you can't get too settled in. Since he left off on in the key of F and the way it related to C as the 5th, now he'll start toying around with F and finding all kinds of different ways to relate it to every note in existence and even with notes that don't exist but which Ornette plays nonetheless.

But you never know how he's going to relate, what tonal center he might jump to or when he's going to erase it all and start with something else that you also can't predict. It's a new way of writing, playing and of listening to music.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: reggie miles
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 04:16 AM

My mind must be near to the consistency of stone because I got lost way back in the first post of this thread. I've not read every post in this thread but even some of the later posts were beyond my comprehension. I do have a basic grasp of how a circle of fifths is played on my open G tuned guitar. I even play a number of songs that make use of that chordal relationship. However, the diagrams depicted weren't very helpful for me until I picked up my guitar and compared what was described in the pictures to what I was playing on my guitar. Then, I began to understand what some of the hen scratchins were about.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 12:41 AM

GUEST,Chord Chucker:"It really has little utility for folk music..."
I would be the first to agree with you on that point, Frank--except that my own life experience seems to be leading me in a different direction:-)

Ah, but there is a glitch in all that!

One of the reasons I wanted you to check out those links, is that folk music, though extremely simple in structure, can be transferred to other forms of music, and vice-verse.

You posted: "The motion is full and profound, and the architecture is clean and big enough to hold a long piece together (too many times long pieces are just bits strung together with no real form)."

YES, I fully agree with you that long pieces tend either to 'wander' or spend too long in 'developing'...and when composing the piece, I was all too aware of NOT allowing that to happen, but to TELL THE STORY! To do this, you might notice that the piece is actually several 'movements', as 'vignettes', and to facilitate the key changes, we play off the 'circle of 5th's going up to the '5', working it in that key, and then coming back down....and it is so subtle, you don't even notice it...other than, well maybe, on second thought, maybe you don't notice it, at all.
All of the 'vignettes' have either Celtic or folk roots...but without sounding 'folkie', Celtic, or 'New Age-y'.

Also, myself, being a left handed guitar player, find some distinct advantages, when using the keyboard. My left hand, on the bass octaves, is also my finger-picking hand on the guitar, and my right hand is my fretting lead hand, on guitar, and happens to be the lead melodic hand, on the piano! As a result, my upper notes, on the keyboards, can blaze at light-speed, while the bottom has a 'round' movement, as in finger-picking....but in this case, instead of guitar, or piano voices, I'm using string section voices, so certain notes remain depresses, while the other fingers keep the movement rolling, as in finger-picking on the guitar.
I just put all that, because YOU seem more into the structure, and the nuances of music, than a lot of the regular folkies who are still working at getting their campfire strumming of 'Kumbayah' down!...and really stretch when they got their Neil Young/Santana upgrades!!!
(I have to stop myself from grinning on that one).
When you find the time, you might want to take another listen, and you'll note what I'm saying.

The other piece, 'Seascape', unlike 'the long one', was recorded in a studio, using three tracks on a Roland Juno 60, which is a lovely instrument, BUT you can only depress 6 notes at one time before one will cut out, as you hit the 7th!...THAT is a trick to pull off, but we got it!!!

Hey man, it's been a REAL pleasure to bump into you on here!!!
Stay in touch!!!

Warmest Regards!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 02:55 PM

"It really has little utility for folk music."

I would be the first to agree with you on that point, Frank--except that my own life experience seems to be leading me in a different direction:-)

As luck would have it, lately a friend has been inviting me to drop in on what seems to be a sort of bluegrass jam with mostly guitars and mandolins--they solo around the circle for every tune, and, owing to a certain uniformity from one tune to the next, I run out of ideas pretty quickly.

Strange as it may seem, I've been listening to listening to Coltrane lately, not to "borrow" so much as to see how he thinks about things, with the general object being to finding ways to express thoughts of my own.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:54 PM

"Giant Steps" derived from the bridge of "Have You Met Miss Jones". It's very Wagnerian
in that the tonal center changes continuously. It really has little utility for folk music.
Coltrane is a musical genius who has innovated a new kind of contemporary jazz.

The circle of fifths should be thought of as the circle of fourths, rewritten so instead of progressing by fifths, it should progress clockwise by fourths: ex. C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, etc.

This is more useful in its application to harmonies in jazz. For example: "Sweet Georgia Brown" in the key of F starts with a D7, then progresses a fourth away to G7, another fourth to C7, then to the tonic chord of F which moves to an A7, and proceeds a fourth to D7,
G7, C7 etc.

In jazz this is called back-cycling.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:38 PM

GfS--I listened to your stuff last night, but it was pushing 4am when I finished, and I was to sleepy to post. However, I thought it was wonderful stuff.

I liked the Planetarium piece best by a little bit, perhaps because it had been polished for public use, and I was not as focussed on the 29 min piece as I could have been, because halfway thru, I realized that I needed to make a bank deposit and do some related juggle before morning, or my rent payment would be in peril;-)

Anyway, I love the way the tone center moves in your work. The motion is full and profound, and the architecture is clean and big enough to hold a long piece together (too many times long pieces are just bits strung together with no real form).

I also love the pulse, which, though powerful and driving, also ebbs and flows, leaving quiet and contemplative places without breaking up the overall flow.

Finally, you weave a surprising number of diverse themes and ideas, and somehow keep the same, seamless sense of forward movement.

Well done, and I look forward to hearing more!

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:24 PM

////Listen again to "Sugar, Sugar" The vibes are doubling that lick with the organ, which is also all over the bottom.////

That's a Rhodes. If an organ was doubled with the vibes, it's a Hammond B-3 (almost a Jon Lord sound) and not a Farfisa but I think it's a Rhodes playing extra heavy on the bass notes.

///And listen to "Yummy, Yummy, Yummy" again, it doesn't stand out, though it is more obvious in the last verse. As the young folks say, "It's in the mix."////

Don't hear it.

////And check the picture of the band. Their organ player was one of the most famous cartoon characters of all time:-)
The Archies////

Yeah, well, there was no vibes player in the cartoon band but there certainly is in the studio recording. How much stock can you put in that?

////And hey, I am not trying to be a jerk about this stuff--it's music that I listened to and played long ago, and I am just trying to share what I know about it, for what it's worth :-)////

I appreciate it but, as a said, I was making a stereotypical comparison. I could have said Christmas songs or children's songs and it still would have been stereotypical because they're not all major 7ths either.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 04:13 AM

Ok, Al - one more time - and still on "Sweet Georgia Brown...

This diagram: Sweet Georgia Brown sequence - key of C shows how Sweet Georgia Brown, in the key of C, starts on the C chord, drops down to the A chord, and works its way back to the C chord through D and G. That part (arc) of the circle is shown in yellow.

This diagram: Sweet Georgia Brown sequence - key of F shows the same arc shifted around the circle so that the tune starts in F, drops down to D, and then works back through G and C to F.

This diagram: Sweet Georgia Brown sequence - key of Eb shows the same arc/sequence with the tune pitched in Eb. It starts in Eb, drops down to C, then works its way back to Eb via F and Bb.

You can see the same relationship for the tune in all three keys - which is what makes the circle such a useful tool for both understanding common chord sequences and for transposition.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 12:41 AM

Chord Chucker: "As to whether we need to know this for the music we deal with, I know for a fact that GfS, Big Al Whittle, and josepp, and, to a degree,Don, all play music......"

Now this is considerably different, than what you may expect...

For Chord Chucker, if you haven't heard these....there are 4, all have the same picture,...I've posted them on here, before, but I think you are newer.

The first one is 29:26 minutes long but......

Give me you feedback.

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 10:52 PM

That was me, again.

And yes, I know "Yummy,Yummy.." was not the Archies. As to the lewd, pulsating eighth notes, they are more implied in the Archies stuff, which was Don Kirshner/LA studio music, and more explicit in Buddah Records stuff(the authentic bubble gum music:-)

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 10:39 PM

Those of us who were playing pop/top 40 stuff back in them days(and who dare to admit it) remember that for a number of years, the organ was a standard fixture in most club bands, and in much, if not most recorded stuff.

Listen again to "Sugar, Sugar" The vibes are doubling that lick with the organ, which is also all over the bottom. And listen to "Yummy, Yummy, Yummy" again, it doesn't stand out, though it is more obvious in the last verse. As the young folks say, "It's in the mix."

And check the picture of the band. Their organ player was one of the most famous cartoon characters of all time:-)
The Archies

And hey, I am not trying to be a jerk about this stuff--it's music that I listened to and played long ago, and I am just trying to share what I know about it, for what it's worth :-)

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 08:38 PM

////It depends, josepp, on what you mean by "Bubblegum Rock", but "Classic Bubblegum" of the Ohio Express/1910 Fruitgum Company variety used straight major and minor chords and *avoided* major 7ths. The "SECRET" of Bubblegum music was the pulsating bass-all eighth notes, on the chord fundamental, while a cheesy Farfisa organ played something like "Bah Bah Bubah-Bah Bah Bubah" and the guitar avoided leads of any kind./////

My statement is a total stereotype meant to give the reader the idea of how a flatted 7th differs from a major 7th. Like any other genre, no one statement can cover all of bubblegm and be right all the time. And your statement is proof. There is no farfisa in "Sugar Sugar" that I can remember. It used a vibraphone. There was no keyboard at all in "Yummy Yummy Yummy" and no particular straight-8 beat that I recall. "Green Tambourine" also does not follow your formula nor does "Finders Keepers" or "Captain Groovy and His Bubblegum Army" (which has a manic rock guitar lead at the end).

/////He starts on a B, then jumps to the D7, which is the fifth(dominant) in the key of G, and resolves to G.

Then he jumps to Bb which is the 5th (dominant) in Eb, and resolves to Eb.////

5ths love to resolve. In jazz, we are taught to virtually always go to the 5th before resolving. I can't imagine it wouldn't be true in other genres of music popular in the US. And it is very musical sounding.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 08:24 PM

The thing is - if you play acoustic guitar - the main thing is to keep as many strings open as possible. If yo play electric guitar - its all about how the note sustains - so it wouldn't matter, play barre chords. Acoustic playing is about how the note dies.

So I'd probably approach that sequence capo-ing two frets = playing the B chord as a A shape. Either that or I'd listen to piece and try and work out an open tuning

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 08:01 PM

You're a great googler, Jack.

Actually, though, "Giant Steps" uses the circle fifths, as well as the "Carlos Santana secret chord progression, and another composer trick, used in SBrown, which you can call "Jump to the 5th", simply stated, is:

to change key, jump to the 5th in the new key you want to move to(this can be *any* chord, as long as it is dominant 7th).

To clarify:

If you are in C and want to be in D, jump from C to A7, (which is the 5th, or dominant 7th chord in the key of D), then resolve to the D chord, and there you are!



If you are in C and want to be in Eb for some reason, you just jump to Bb7 and resolve.

If you are Ben Bernie and Maceo Pinkard, and want to write a catchy song that doesn't just bounce around in the key of G, you jump out to E7, which is the dominant in the key of A, resolve to A7, which is the dominant in the key of D, resolve to D7, which is the dominant in the key of G, and then you've moved in through the circle of 4ths, back to your home key.

Now, a few words on the "Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression". Instead of moving from, say, D7 to G7, then to C, you play Dm7 to G7. The "Santana" part is that you just repeat it over and over and never go to the C at all.

The "secret" is that any time you've got, say, one measure that is four counts of G7, you can play /Dm7 G7/. Josepp mentioned this above, and called the "Carlos Santana SCP" something like a "Two-Five" progression. If you're still here, Big Al, we'll give you three guesses as to why that is;)

Anyway, John Coltrane didn't want to play "Sweet Georgia Brown" all his life, so he developed a related, but new chord progression:

Giant Steps

||:B D7/G Bb7/Eb Eb/ A-7 D7/

G Bb7/ Eb F#7/ B B/ F-7 Bb7/

Eb Eb/ A-7 D7/ G G/ C#-7 F#7/

B B/ F-7 Bb7/ Eb Eb/ C#-7 F#7:||

Frightening to look at, until you realize that

he is really just jumping around and changing keys.


He starts on a B, then jumps to the D7, which is the fifth(dominant) in the key of G, and resolves to G.

Then he jumps to Bb which is the 5th (dominant) in Eb, and resolves to Eb.

Then he jumps to F#7, 5th(dominant) in B, and resolves to B.

Then, to add some color, he does a "Carlos", jumping to F-7 and Bb7 instead of just Bb7, and resolves to Eb.

Do I need to explain the A-7 and D7 that resolve to G? I WON'T! This is already way too long of a post!

As to whether we need to know this for the music we deal with, I know for a fact that GfS, Big Al Whittle, and josepp, and, to a degree,Don, all play music that uses these ideas.

For most of us, though trad/folk music is important, it's not the only music we hear or play.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 03:54 PM

Chord Chucker's posts do point out some real uses for the circle idea, unlike pretty much everything else in this thread.

Here's another one - not an actual circle, but topologically it's the same, and unlike "Sweet Georgia Brown", it's not something that fits a ladder.

Animated analysis of Giant Steps

Very clever. It does show you what's going on. But how many of us here actually need to understand that for the music we deal with?

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 03:17 PM

That, again, was me.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 03:02 PM

"The secret to writing bubblegum rock songs was to make them major 7th so that they sounded sweet and non-threatening."

It depends, josepp, on what you mean by "Bubblegum Rock", but "Classic Bubblegum" of the Ohio Express/1910 Fruitgum Company variety used straight major and minor chords and *avoided* major 7ths. The "SECRET" of Bubblegum music was the pulsating bass-all eighth notes, on the chord fundamental, while a cheesy Farfisa organ played something like "Bah Bah Bubah-Bah Bah Bubah" and the guitar avoided leads of any kind.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 02:12 PM

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 02:07 PM

Sorry!

I just re-read

C is the root, D is the 2nd (passing note), Eb is the minor 3rd, E is the major 3rd, G is the 5th and Bd is the 7th. Now you wouldn't play all these at once. The passing note is only play with the minor 3rd chord (which would be C Eb G, in this case). And these relationships are true of each row--root, passing note, minor 3rd, major 3rd, 5th and 7th.

I'll try that and report back.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 01:47 PM

Mixolydian?

Stu

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 01:33 PM

Okay - so which of those five have you chosen for your circle of fifths, and why are they significant?

I'm beginning to sound like that guy in City Slickers that couldn't understand how you could video one programme while you're watching another

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 12:09 PM

Al, the fourth is ALWAYS directly to the left of the root note on the circle. In the key of C, you shift to F. F is the subdominant. The dominant is always the fifth which would be G in the key of C.

The notes in a scale are designated:

1. Tonic
2. Supertonic
3. Mediant
4. Subdominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant
7. Subtonic or Leading tone

These designations are not all that important to know. What's important is to know the musical distance each note is from the tonic or root because that makes all the difference. In adominant 7th scale, for example, the 7th is flatted. That doesn't mean the 7th has to have a flat sign in front of it; it means that the 7th is 10 half-steps away from the tonic instead of 11 as it would be in the major scale. The difference sounds insignificant but it is huge. Songs in dominant 7th sound dark, sinister, mean. Song in major 7th sound sugary, sweet, light.

The secret to writing bubblegum rock songs was to make them major 7th so that they sounded sweet and non-threatening. True rock sounds are generally in dominant 7th or in minor scales (flatted 3rd and 7th) and so have that "heavy" sound.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 09:37 AM

Thanks Will

so which one of the five is the subdominant - the fourth?
C to F

So what is steps two and three, and five. Then perhaps I'll have the picture?

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 07:40 AM

Hit an F chord, Al - and hope...

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 05:32 AM

Well, being as you jest...try this: "C, don't B flat, B sharp, but B natural"

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 05:28 AM

I suppose I could plead the fifth....

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 04:50 AM

So I'm playing in the key of C - the tune spins wildly out of my comprehension - someone shouts 'go for the fourth' (and presumably they don't want me to jump off the Forth Bridge) what do I do?

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 03:58 AM

Ah! nice to hear from a player who KNOWS!!
BTW, Frank Zappa had a piece called 'The Secret Chord Progression of Carlos Santana', as well!...If you WATCH Carlos play one of those long pieces, then you already know how much of it is bullshit!...I mean he's got his tricks...but hell, ANYONE with that percussion section could just about play anything, and it would sound hot!
If you've ever watched his performance at Woodstock, (after he dropped a hit of acid), he picks up after the drum solo by Michael Shrieve (which he carried the piece), Carlos starts his guitar 'solo'(?)...in the wrong key!! Plain as day....BUT, his finger PATTERN was right..just in the wrong position(fret). You might amuse yourself with that, if you watch the footage!

Back to Zappa...he smoked that one!!..though I preferred his 'City of Tiny lights' and 'Yo Mama', from the 'Sheik Yerbouti' album. My brother, a drummer and in the 'Rock and Roll Hall of Fame' had jammed with Frank, back in the '70's &'80's....Jeez, I'm straying from the thread..but being as you took notice, of what I posted, I thought I'd share that tidbit with ya'!

HEY!!....Super Regards To You!...and for goodness sakes..KEEP PLAYING!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 02:04 AM

That was me.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 02:03 AM

LOL-GfS! We beat the Carlos Santana secret chord progression to death. Though we often played without a drummer, at *every* gig, the singer would pull out a guiro, and we'd eat up 7-10 minutes, pounding out those two chords while people danced. It was easy, but sounded very cool, and we always got compliments.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 12:49 AM

In a rather related, practical application, especially when playing live, and jamming, or in a studio...you might get one of the players who calls out, "go to the 4th"....or the fifth...the second..etc, etc, and you, who may be just sitting in, will know EXACTLY where to go, and know what is related, and so where to go to, or your options....but I'm not sure that people who's musical catalog doesn't go much beyond 'Kumbayah' or Neil Young would care to understand. They probably are not that much interested in music, anyway!

I believe Don would agree.

Regards to All Those Players Who Really Give a Crap About What It Is!

GfS

P.S. Maybe someday when they want to FEEL accomplished, they might even learn the secret chord progression of Carlos Santana....HINT: It's usually TWO chords!

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 10:32 PM

At peril of causing more confusion, I will say that, though I studied music theory in music school, the circle of fifths didn't make practical sense until I was hired to play casuals(basically a pick-up band that played standards for parties and such things).

The leader/guitarist/singer who hired me(a wise, kind, and patient man, unlike the others in the band) quickly explained a few things.

First, that the old standards, (unlike the folk and rock music that I usually played), nearly always moved thru the circle of 4ths. Second, that the strings on the guitar(and electric bass, which is what I usually played) were a 4th apart. Third, and most important,that if he told me what key we were in and how far out in the circle the progression went, I could start on the key note, jump up the neck and walk back down.

He also told me to never drop the rhythm, even if I was lost, and he taught me a trick for deadening a bad note so you could feel the beat without hearing a mistake(still use that a lot).

Did it for several years--many of my jazz, rock, and folk music friends were highly disdainful, but I worked regularly, and got paid, which is special in it's own way:-)

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 06:16 PM

Well, yes there was, Chord Chucker, but at this point, I'm afraid that attempting to clarify it would merely add to the confusion, especially when there are so many experts (you know what an "expert" is: it comes from two Latin words, "ex," which means "has-been" and "spurt," which is a little drip under pressure) around here who insist on displaying their lofty knowledge by trying to load it down with all kinds of totally irrelevant bells and whistles.

Although there is a great deal of information about music that can be gained by examining the Circle of Fifths, it is essentially a tool for beginners, by which they have an easy visual idea of what chords go with which keys.

It has NOTHING to do with pure intonation, even temperament, or the esoteric modes used in the chanting of Tibetan monks.

Sometime when I have time and feel inclined, I may attempt to give a very straightforward and simple explanation of how a beginner can make good use of the information to be found on a Circle of Fifthes.

Which, of course, will be immediately buried under totally irrelevant Rococo curves, whorls, curlycues, gold plating, and mother-of-pearl inlay by hungry egos desperately yearning for recognition.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 05:22 PM

I am wondering if there actually was a point.

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 04:19 PM

Maybe because they think that the circle of 'fifths' is just another round of Jack Daniels!

GfS

P.S. When Don and I, of all people, so polarized (sometimes), agree(for once), and most all of the other Mudcatters miss the point...there is only one conclusion.....we must be talking about music.....(God forbid).
Hey Don, Do you think that they should pay more attention to politics, or music, to get this one??? (Regards).

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 03:02 PM

Regarding the Circle of Fifths:

I see that everyone has completely missed the point.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: More stuff about the circle of 5ths
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 02:29 PM

"It doesn't go round the circle. Stays within one-third of it, going back and forth. "

So you acknowledge that the circle exists, Jack--