BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'

Subject: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 02:43 PM

German poet Gunter Grass sparked a furore recently with the publication of his politically controversial poem 'What Must Be Said'.

The sentiments expressed therein have sparked much debate, both within Germany and beyond.

Grass, who was conscripted into the SS as a teenager, expresses his own anxieties about openly speaking out against certain Israeli policies, for fear of being castigated as an anti-Semitic Nazi sympathiser.

While it is not a great poem, my own feeling is, even at this late stage in both his life and career, it must have taken a great deal of courage for Grass to expose himself thus.

I hope this thread will be allowed to stay open. And also that it remain civil and respectful.


What Must Be Said by Günter Grass

But why have I kept silent till now?

Because I thought my own origins,

Tarnished by a stain that can never be removed,

meant I could not expect Israel, a land

to which I am, and always will be, attached,

to accept this open declaration of the truth.

Why only now, grown old,

and with what ink remains, do I say:

Israel's atomic power endangers

an already fragile world peace?

Because what must be said

may be too late tomorrow;

and because – burdened enough as Germans –

we may be providing material for a crime

that is foreseeable, so that our complicity

wil not be expunged by any

of the usual excuses.

And granted: I've broken my silence

because I'm sick of the West's hypocrisy;

and I hope too that many may be freed

from their silence, may demand

that those responsible for the open danger we face renounce the use of force,

may insist that the governments of

both Iran and Israel allow an international authority

free and open inspection of

the nuclear potential and capability of both.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 02:44 PM

Forgot to include link to Guardian article here:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/05/gunter-grass-israel-poem-iran

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 03:17 PM

Ever since reading The Tin Drum, many years ago, I have been a fan. His history is interesting, and one suspects, not terribly unique. What is different is his willingness to confront it, and in public.
Not a man one can easily ignore. I think that most Germans both love and fear him. Love him for his art, and fear him for his open admissions of his (and his country's) past.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 05:49 PM

Here is a translation of the whole piece:

WHAT MUST BE SAID

Why am I silent, silent too long,
About what is obvious and has been rehearsed
In war games, at whose conclusion we as survivors
Are footnotes at best.

It is the claimed right of a first strike
That could annihilate the Iranian people,
Subjugated by a loudmouth
And herded by organized jubilation,
Because in this sphere of control, the construction
Of an atom bomb is suspected.

Yet why do I forbid myself
To name the other nation
In which for years -- although kept secret --
A growing nuclear potential is on hand
But out of control, because no inspection May be made?

The general silence on the evidence at hand,
To which my silence owes obedience,
I feel to be an incriminating lie,
Coercion, where the penalty is announced
The moment one missteps;
The verdict "Antisemitism" is familiar.

But now, because from my own land,
Whose own crimes, fundamental
And beyond compare,
Time after time catch up with her and take her to task,
On the other hand and purely businesslike, if also
Declared with facile lips to be a reparation,
Yet another submarine shall be furnished
To Israel, whose specialty consists
Of guiding all-annihilating warheads
To that place, where the existence
Of one single atom bomb remains unproven,
Yet where suspicion becomes evidence,
I'll say what must be said.
But why have I been silent up to now?
Because I thought my origin,
That bears a stigma, never to be redeemed,
Forbade me to regard this fact as spoken truth
About the land of Israel, to which I'm bound
And will remain so.

Why do I say now for the first time,
Aged and with my last ink:
The atomic might of Israel endangers
The already fragile peace of the world?
Because it must be said,
What may be too late tomorrow;
And because we -- as Germans incriminated enough --
Could become suppliers to a crime,
That is foreseeable, which is why our complicity
Were to be effaced by none of the usual
Making of excuses.

And let me say: I'll be silent no more,
Because the hypocrisy of the West
Disgusts me; besides it is to be hoped
That many others may be freed from silence,
May ask those responsible for the evident danger
To renounce the use of force and Likewise insist,
That an unhindered and permanent control
Of Israeli atomic potentials
And Iranian nuclear compounds
By an international authority
Be allowed by the governments of both nations.

Only so may all be helped, Israelis and Palestinians,
And what is more, all people who live
In this region occupied by delusion,
Side by side yet hostile,
And finally ourselves may be helped as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 12 - 06:30 PM

He is absolutely right. The hypocrisy of the West sickens me too. The West's craven and complicit silence whenever Israel does, with impunity, what is not tolerated if ANY other nation would dare to do it is a disgrace to the whole world, is implicity racist in its nature, is a sanction of aggression and mass murder, and is, to me, intolerable.

Iran's nuclear program is not the problem here. The political cause of Zionism and its narcisstic delusions of its own grandeur and supposed moral justification to do murder is the problem. It IS a "Master Race" psychology on the part of Zionists, and we've seen that before...on the part of Germans. Forcible land theft from Palestinians is the problem. Racist persecution of Palestinians by Israel is the problem. Illegal aggression upon other nation-states is the problem, and the primary prosecutors of that illegal aggression in the past few decades have been Israel, the USA, and the UK (as well as my own complicit country, Canada, presently ruled by a neocon administration that does anything the USA wants it to, and which, I suspect, would support Israel even if they reinstituted Nazi-style death camps for Palestinians).

Until Israel itself is made to submit to international law and to a regulating international authority over its undeclared nuclear arsenal, there will be no chance of peace or justice in the Middle East. Israel must be treated exactly as other nations are treated, not as the sole, untouchable, un-criticizable exception to international law, which can do anything violent that it wants to, to anyone it wishes. An exception to law is an outlaw, and that is the role Israel has been playing...with, generally, the full connivance and support of the USA, the UK, and Canada.

Anyone who dares to point this out is labelled "antisemitic"...and that is the greatest hypocrisy of all on the part of the compliant West and its craven politicians and media people. Very few dare to speak out. I'm glad that Mr Grass has dared to, because we are now on the edge of a very dangerous precipice, and it will not be avoided by playing the same old hypocritical games as in the past...and thereby supporting naked aggression and colonial occupations by Israel, the USA, and the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 05:07 AM

I see a sort of parallel between the attitude towards Israel, and that towards the Trades Unions
Both Jews and workers were so put upon, and abused throughout history, so many people make allowances for their retaliatory excesses, putting it down to a righting of old wrongs.
Hoever there comes a time when revengs has to stop, and a truce is declared.
Not forgetting that BOTH sides must agree to said truce.
However I fear that intransigence will always rule in both cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 05:21 AM

Many thanks for the full piece McGrath.

I think his purpose as articulated here, is the most significant aspect of the piece:

And let me say: I'll be silent no more,
Because the hypocrisy of the West
Disgusts me; besides it is to be hoped
That many others may be freed from silence,

It's essential that public figures as Grass should set a precedent by risking speak openly in such fashion in order to provoke essential debate in the West. And of course it's very important for Germans in particular - who clearly remain buried under an impossible ethical burden where honest debate about Germany's unflinching support of Israel and all she does - so that both Germans (and others in the West) may feel liberated to do likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 08:27 AM

The predicted backlash against Grass for publishing the poem has begun.

Israeli govt. has now banned Grass from ever (one wonders how worthwhile banning an 84 yr. old might be) visiting Israel, by implementing a law which denies former German soldiers involved in WWII access to the Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 09:01 AM

Are the US and UK inspected by officials of an international organisation, to prevent nuclear weaponry proliferation? That is not intended as sarcasm - I really do not know the answer.
Günter Grass is obviously right. The most important part of his poem is the part in which he asserts that it is his duty to speak out against the delivery of a submarine to Israel, which has nuclear capability. His fear is that by being a part of this, his compatriots are participating in what is potentially another crime against humanity. I am frankly a little baffled that such a well founded comment can provoke such outrage (or mock outrage).

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: number 6
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 01:07 PM

"In an interview with Suddeutsche Zeitung, Grass said he did not mean to attack Israel, but Mr Netanyahu's policies. ''I should have also brought that into the poem,'' he said.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 08:18 PM

View of the Chief Rabbi of the UK http://www.rense.com/general28/incomp.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 02:58 PM

I am pretty sure that the US and Russia inspect each other as a result of SALT and subsequent treaties.

Obviously Israel does not, since they officially deny any involvement in Nuclear activities. There have been UN inspections in Iran, but the UN accuses them of having secret facilities.

Of course it might be pointed out that a logical reason for Iran's secrecy might be Israel's constant threats to destroy the known facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 05:01 PM

"Fortunately, Grass has a significant number of critics in Germany. Henryk Broder, author of a recent and incisive polemic entitled "Forget Auschwitz: On the Final Solution of the Israel Question," correctly describes Grass as the "prototype of an educated anti-Semite," one who presents himself as a friend of the Jews yet seeks to undermine Israel's capacity to defend itself. Richard Herzinger, in a withering essay in Die Welt, dissects the strategic ignorance in Grass's poem and compares Grass's argument to Nazism's presentation of the Jews as advocates of mass murder. Josef Joffe in Die Zeit sets the record straight regarding the German delivery of a submarine to Israel and sees the Grass publication as evidence that the anti-Semitic argument that "the Jew is guilty" is again part of public discussion in Germany. Grass critics also include Frank Schirmmacher, the editor of the cultural pages of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung; Clemens Wergin, in Die Welt; and Michael Naumann and Malte Lehming, both in the Berlin-based Tagesspiegel."

The New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 05:48 PM

Hmmm, charges of anti-semitism against GG for daring to stimulate debate on the issue of nuclear proliferation and Western hypocrisy,
are from the same mould as charges of "homophobia", now widely used to suppress debate on homosexual marriage and the promotion of homosexuality into mainstream society.

Orwellian and cowardly in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 11:40 AM

Grass is an anti semite and always was one.And most of the people who are railing against the Jewish state have a strong streak of hatred of Jews that they do not care to admit to. They have forgotten history and are ignoring the present. It's become popular with many strata of society to blame Israel and the Jewish people for all the troubles in the mideast, and the world. Those who are speaking of Isreel to be the same as Iran- ought to move to Iran. Or Syria. Or any of the countries who have made a target of the Jewish people.

Every time I've heard a person of my acquaintance rail against Israel, they always reveal a strong streak of hatred of the Jewish people to be the basic building blocks of their philosophy.- It's a foul disguise. The Jewish people need to be louder in defending themselves, from a nation and their supporters who want to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth. We've been there before haven't wel

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 11:51 AM

"It's become popular with many strata of society to blame Israel and the Jewish people for all the troubles in the mideast, and the world."

I know a number of English Jewish people who have never been to Israel, I fail to see how they can be blamed for the warmongering of a foreign country's government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 01:16 PM

"From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 11:40 AM

Grass is an anti semite and always was one.And most of the people who are railing against the Jewish state have a strong streak of hatred of Jews that they do not care to admit to. "

Do you have the courage to identify yourself? Pretty strong unsubstantiated word from and an unnamed guest. You call any critic of the Israeli military as racist. Yet I know many Americans who "rail" equally equally against both the US and Israeli policies. What does that make them? What does that make you?

Mudelfs, If you delete the improper GUEST posting, please feel free to delete this one as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 01:30 PM

It's great that a poem can still reverberate far and wide

like it or not

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Ernest
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 02:38 PM

It doesn`t reverbate far and wide because it is a poem. Especially it is not a great poem by literary standards.

It does reverbate because it is controversial.

And - as a lot of other people have pointed out - it is nonsense. Israel never threatened to destroy Iran - Iran has threatened to "put Israel off the map" more than once.

Israel has the atom bomb but never used it. I wouldn`t trust Iran not using it once they have it. Therefore I consider their nuclear program a problem.

Frankly I can`t understand why people who are against war, nuclear weapons and even nuclear power used for energy are neglecting the dangers when other-than-western-world-countries have them.

Back to Günter Grass: I don`t think he is antisemite. He is simply wrong here.

As for moral authority he ain`t one: I don`t blame him for being conscripted into the SS as a teenager, he was probably a mislead youth then. But someone who was always first of accusing others for being dishonest regarding their behaviour during the Nazi rule while he himself forgot to mention his own histotry for about sixty years can`t claim any superiority anymore.

This begins with the title "what must be said". Grass is claiming a singular moral position here. Apart from the fact that many right wing writers argue with similar patterns ("it must be allowed to say...") it is not in any way singular or heroic to critisize Israels politics, export of weapons etc. This has been done a thousand times or more, by politicians, writers, the press or here on the cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 03:13 PM

Thanks, McGrath for the full poem. It must be said.

It is unfortunate that the government of Israel, governing a group who have suffered, must inflict that suffering on their neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 03:32 PM

Ernest, for what purpose do they have atom bombs if not to use them?

If it was for deterrence They would say that they have them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 06:09 PM

Maybe it's all a clever bluff by Israel,and they haven't got any bombs after all. If they had said they did have bonbs people would go being sceptical about it, and saying "prove it" - as it is they've got the same deterrent effect, but maybe saved all the hassle of making the things. All they needed to do was set up Moredecai Vanunu as a whistleblower and bang him up for ever, and everyone takes it as read that they are armed to the teeth.

I don't suppose it would work if Iran tried the same ploy, and instead of saying they don't have any bombs and have no intention of developing them, they just went in for saying "Wouldn't you like to know?" instead...

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:59 AM

"it is not in any way singular or heroic to critisize Israels politics, export of weapons etc. This has been done a thousand times or more, by politicians, writers, the press or here on the cat."

Indeed. But it has not been done a thousand times by a significant GERMAN national figure. As I said before Germans (despite the volume of anti-Semitism prevalent throughout Europe during the war, resulting in much Nazi collaboration) are bound under a singular impossible ethical burden to Israel, and considering the burden of both their collective and indeed personal history/histories, how may ordinary German people feel free to openly debate the rights or wrongs of unstintingly supporting Israel in all she does, and in this case supplying her with specific nuclear abilities during a very fragile time? Grass was breaking a taboo. And hoping that by doing so and invoking the inevitable backlash, that it might at least inspire others who feel similarly bound, to do so likewise.

German columnist Jakob Augstein in Spiegal Online, say's this:

"It is a sentence that has triggered an outcry. Because it is true. Because it is a German, an author, a Nobel laureate who said it. Because it is Günter Grass who said it. And therein lies the breach. And, for that, one should thank Grass. He has taken it upon himself to utter this sentence for all of us. A much-delayed dialogue has begun."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,826180,00.html

CS

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:25 AM

Slight thread drift, but the idea that Trade Unions are no longer necessary or somehow oppress the poor profiteer capitalist or that the working (or unworking) man (or woman) no longer needs defence is simply irrational. Now as never before in the UK the welfare state and the hard-won rights of those outside the aristocracy and/or plutocracy are under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:42 AM

Well said Richard.

Back to the topic though: a German SS veteran publicly criticises Israel. Israel says he's not welcome in the country. Ergo, Israel is once again the bad guy.

Can someone tell me exactly how that works?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 09:18 AM

"Israel says he's not welcome in the country. Ergo, Israel is once again the bad guy.
Can someone tell me exactly how that works?"

It's not the first time Israel has taken such a dramatic and arguably repressive stance.
Freedom of speech (amongst other things) must be an essential aspect of any supposed democracy. By stifling debate and banning foreign dissenting voices such as Grass, Israel steps into political territory more typically occupied by dictatorships.

Other examples off the top of my head of similar Israeli repressive activities here:

Israel bans boycotts

US academic banned from Israel

Chomsky banned from entering Palestine

And a whole rash of recent laws ironically moving in the opposite direction of current political activism in the Middle-East:

Israel's new repressive laws


CS

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 12:04 PM

Jack: no need to say that they have them for deterrence since everybody knows they have them.

anonymus Guest: Israel has been criticised by German politicians, papers etc. as well. Maybe some you wouldn`t call significant but nevertheless he wasn`t the first to break a taboo. Jacob Augstein is wrong here too (especially when saying what Grass said is true, s.a.). And Grass is certainly not speaking for all Germans. He has been critisized from almost all parts of the political spectrum - including the Social Democratic Party (SPD), whose candidates Grass used to support.

Israels decision to forbid Grass to enter the country is not a wise one IMHO because it allows Grass to present himself as a victim. Even if his right to speak out his opinion is not touched by this and other democratic countries have done accordingly before (remember former UN Secretary Kurt Waldheim?).

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 01:02 PM

Ernest, it's been obvious for decades that Germany (and most Germans) dare not criticise Israel, and the reason for such reticence is equally obvious. It is for that reason and the fact of Grass being something of a literary celeb that his poem is noteworthy. As it comes across in English, I don't like it much and surely it is stretching a point to call it poetry, but if he wants to lower his standards, that's his affair.

The Israeli reaction has been predictable and childish; likewise the facile line heard from some zionists, including an anonymous guest in this thread, that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism. For how much longer can the Holocaust be used to excuse the excesses of this repressive theocracy?

An example to us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 01:26 PM

i almost had a heart attack when i realized i agreed with richard bridge. but the union issue doesn't gore his ok(britannia).

i also take exception to the statement that grass was forced into the ss. NO ONE WAS FORCED INTO THE SS, WAFFEN OR EINSTAT GROUPEN. all ss units were volunteers. the worst punishment for anyone refusing to serve in the ss was to be transfered into the regular army. there were great perks being in any ss unit. best equipment, best assignments and with the ein stats groupen, you got to run the death camps and avoind risking you life on the russian front.

i studied history with an expert on german social history bewteen 1920 band 1950. he stated categorically that after over a hunbdred thousand interviews he did not find a single reputable story of anyone being forced into the ss. in addition when probed he found every person he interviewed had a personal story of wirtnessing an atrocity against a jew.

there were disenters in germany and they served in the regular army at great risk to their own lives. and they should be credited for taking the risk that ss men refused.

on israel and iran. we don't like iran having weapons of mass destruction because they will likely use them on us. plain and simple. a tactical nuclear war head would destroy an air craft carrier flotila of the us navy. those carriers keep the persian gulf open. another great reason the use alternative energy and get off the addiction to oil.

now although i condemn israeli policies on the settlements and human rights abuses on the west back, i am not much of a fan of the palestinian representatives. they are mostly fascists. abbas is called a moderate but he did his phd on relying on the protocols of the elders of zion--as truth. that's a moderate out there. i don't support fascists. they occasionally have good issues but i just don't support fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:01 PM

Günter Grass, perhaps Germany's most noted contemporary writer and the 1999 Nobel laureate in literature, penned a poem this month that reminds us art can still have a global impact.

Perhaps "art" is an overstatement. While it probably sounded more melodic in the original German, Grass' poem is really a political screed. In "What Must Be Said," Grass depicts himself, the poet, as one of the only people in the world with the courage to stand up and speak out against Israel.

It is a psychosis shared by many with Grass' political bent – to shriek so loudly about being silenced and to crow so proudly about their courage in standing up to the global Zionist onslaught that they can't hear much of the world screeching with them. To them, their cause is so just and the offences so evil that nothing short of the most-shrill language is justifiable, and anything short of a unanimous worldwide cyclone of fury is silence.

The shrieking directed at Israel is so massively disproportionate and irrational in the context of world events that to observe this hysteria and hear nothing, as Grass does, verges on a form of social madness.

The narrative of victimhood in Grass' poem is telling and familiar. The victims are, first and foremost, downtrodden heroes like himself who dare to speak. Almost secondarily, the victims are the Iranian people who, under Grass' artistic licence, are under threat of extinction by a maniacal Israel. The inversion here is absolute, given that it has been Iran's leaders who have repeatedly threatened to eradicate Israel and Israelis, not the other way around.

In assuredly the most unoriginal stanza of his recent masterwork, Grass raises that most familiar of red herrings, and succeeds in a perverse way to undermine his own message: "The verdict of 'anti-Semitism' is familiar."

Of course, that's it. Millions of people are being prevented from criticizing Israel because they fear being wrongly accused of antisemitism. Never mind that the accusation is false and, therefore, should not have the intended sting. Never mind that antisemitism exists only in the devious Jewish mind as an accusation intended to silence the justice-seeking people of the world, despite what the simplest Google search or switch of the TV channel reveals.

The incriminating evidence is the poem itself. It is a confession from a former Waffen-SS conscript that serves as almost a textbook personification of a German and European social psychology phenomenon in which Israel is condemned in terms that defy all reason. Depicting Israel as worse than the Nazis provides post facto justification or, at least, exoneration, for the deeds of earlier generations. Or, in Grass' case, his own deeds during the Holocaust.

This psychological analysis may be simplistic and the evidence is admittedly circumstantial. However, when an old Nazi recasts himself as the hero of freedom while the freest country in the Middle East is recast as a Nazi regime, reasonable people should smell a contrast that is, well, poetic in its artistic perfection.

The history is not irrelevant. It is a part of Grass' identity, just as the Germans with whom he grew up were also subject to propaganda that depicted the tiny population of Jews as a powerful threat, far beyond numerical possibility, seeking to destroy all things German. The theme of Jewish power seeking to destroy relies on ancient ideas of supernatural Jewish power and modern ideas of financial and political Jewish power. Only these sorts of ideas could allow a man like Grass – and millions like him – to believe he is a lone voice in the wilderness confronting the hegemonic silencing power of the Jews.

"What Must Be Said" is a magnificent poem in this respect only: it is a meta-narrative that reads like fact to those who subscribe to Grass' ideology; to those with self-awareness and a critical historical eye, it is the surest proof that the poem, its author and those millions who laud its message are so massively misdirected by their moral compass that they exactly invert victim and perpetrator.

If people like Grass are in fact being subject to attempted silencing, perhaps the perpetrator is not us, but themselves, perhaps it is a tiny moral whisper in their own souls, crying like real heroes for them to be quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:52 PM

"the most-shrill language is justifiable,"

Mmm, writer take note, as you've obviously spent some considerable time composing this somewhat overblown and dramatically descriptive post. Supposing of course it's not just a cut & paste?

"Never mind that antisemitism exists only in the devious Jewish mind"

That all depends as to whether or not you perceive "the Jewish people" to be identical with "Israeli government propaganda" which I personally, don't. Something over two thirds of the world's Jewish people are not Israeli of course, and clearly cannot be held in any way accountable for the actions of the Israeli govt., be those devious or otherwise.

"This psychological analysis may be simplistic"

I don't think that you think that.

"they exactly invert victim and perpetrator."

Freud was a brilliant mind. I've read him. He was in fact so brilliant that he managed to convince Vienna that the evidence of abuses he had discovered were in fact merely the erotic fantasies of the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:16 PM

ollaimh, if 100,000 people were interviewed, I assume the results are documented somewhere. Can you provide a pointer? If the interviews were conducted by your expert colleague, as you rather imply, it would have had to work six hours a day, seven days a week, for more than eleven years - assuming only 15 minutes per interview. A bit unlikely?

As for what alternatives were available to those who joined the SS, your theory takes no account of factors such as family and peer pressure, teenage hubris etc, which would certainly be relevant in the case of a 17-year-old recruit who was enlisted for only a few months. (Incidentally the Russian front had lost its significance by the time Grass signed on, and with Belsen already over-run, service in the concentration camps would have been a dubious option.)

I've always thought it safer to avoid criticising those who were caught up in the nazi phenomenon. Much as I dislike the present pope and everything he stands for, I have never made an issue of his enrolment in the Hitler Youth. So I am certainly not going to judge Grass. Hitler and the circumstances of post-Versailles Germany swept along many who would no doubt have been decent enough people had they been born into other circumstances. Those of us who were indeed born into other circumstances can only hope, but without knowing, that we would have been among the brave few who resisted.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:24 PM

Don't worry Olly, I'm just as amazed. Can I lend you a capital letter or two?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:19 PM

Gunter Grass was in the SS. Common decency alone demands that he keep his mouth shut about Israel until the day he dies. Whatever he has to say, I don't want to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:39 PM

Gunter Grass was in the SS...

Um, and then there's the Pope.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:32 PM

...depicting Israel as worse than the Nazis

Which of course he didn't do.   Couldn't we avoid this kind of distortion?
..................................

The repeated assertion that criticism of Israel is by definition a form of antisemitism is cynical and dangerous. While setting out to evoke a response "I could never be antisemitic, so I can never criticise Israel" it at the same time risks a reverse response, and in the process even sanitising the term antisemitic.

Racists have tried the same trick, suggesting for example that opposition to Apartheid were anti-white.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 09:10 AM

For those who didn't follow my link, the headline reads -

UK Chief Rabbi Says Israeli Policy
Incompatible With Judaism

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 09:32 AM

Is Iranian policy compatible with Islam?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 09:43 AM

Is U.S. policy compatible with Jesus' teachings?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:42 PM

Exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 01:21 PM

Peter K (Fionn): I have to concede that critisizing Israel is a problem for Germany/Germans, but has been done before - even by celebrities like author Martin Walser (same generation as Grass).

It is the fact that he gets things totally wrong that makes his statement worthless. Iran has threatened to destroy Israel, not vice versa. Had herefrained himself to critisize Israels politics toward the palistinians, he wouldn`t have got the shitstorm that he is getting right now.

I also agree with you that Gras`s joining the SS (voluntarily or not) can be explained with him being a misguided youth (even if I don`t get the part of the eastern front losing his significance: on the contrary saving the people from the russian troops was a strong motive then). What he has to be critiszed for are his double standards, that he executed for 60 years: he was always very critic of people involved in the third Reich trying to hide or belittle it, but he himself hid his membership in the SS and claimed to have been just a Flakhelfer (anti aircraft gun ammunition carrier). Quod licet Jovi....?

What about the pope, Greg F.?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM

"Iran has threatened to destroy Israel, not vice versa."

I have read it repeatedly put, that willful Western misinterpretation of Iranian political rhetoric is responsible for this particular perception. And that the Iranian regime are in fact only opposed to the ideological Zionist aspect of the Israeli state, and not the physical existence of the Israeli state per se.

In other words while Iran is politically opposed to an exclusively Jewish state (as Israel maintains itself to be despite a quarter of it's inhabitants not being Jewish), such Iranian political rhetoric does not actually imply any form of literal or physical Iranian aggression against Israel.

Of course I do not know the truth of the matter. Not being a scholar in Iranian language, custom or politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 01:56 PM

I'm not clear whether it is in fact the case that "Iran has threatened to destroy Israel".

Predicting that the present state of Israel will at some time cease to exist, or saying that this would be a desirable development, or even supporting groups with this ambition, is not quite the same as "threatening to destroy Israel".

All those things could properly be ascribed to those who supported the aims of the African National Congress in relation to the apartheid regime in South Africa. However it is also very arguable that such opposition was in the longterm interests of all South Africans, including those who feared the end of apartheid.

And I am not suggesting that there were not important differences between Israel and South Africa, alongside some disturbing parallels.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 02:05 PM

I keep hearing the Iranian statements as "The Zionist state should be wiped off the map." That is far less provocative than "we are going to destroy it." It is certainly less provocative than what the Israelis themselves are doing to local non-jewish populations. Perhaps the Iranians are looking at what the western European Settlers did in the Americas in 200 years. The European Settlers have only had 60 years so far in the Middle East. It is not unreasonable to see the US Sponsored Israeli colonization of the region as an existential threat to generations to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: ollaimh
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:39 PM

again i state that no one was forced into the ss, and to say so ignores the courage and ethics of the hundreds of thousands of germans who refused both the ss and the nazi party. perhaps they should have done more, but at least they didn't directly participate in the holocoust.

this is hardly a list to teach histoty fionn, if you are interested start with professor stokes of dalhousie unibversity, he has many books on german social history, he mined the interviews he did for decades. more radical is goldhagens book "hitler's willing executioners"

right here on mudact we have had the protection of a life long holocoust denuier and his family by our host joe offer. if you read norbert ruebsaat's blog on geist you will see the way people weave the lies. he states that has family wasn't nazi, they were deutchlans party--(the german national people's party--dnvp). and that they marched with the stahlhelm--the party's street goons also called the stahllhelm bund der frontsoldaten. nice finesse for those who do not read history. unfortunatelt for norbert and the ruebsaat clan. the dnvp and stahlhelm disappeared between 1932 and 1934. where did they go? their leader joined the nazi's immediately and took a post in the fledging ss, a branch of the sa at the time(prior to the sa being purged). manyothers followed. by 1934 all the dnvp and stahljelm were part of the nazi party and the ss branch of the sa(as the ss was then, prior to the purge). the dnvp was an openly fascist party with antisenitic policies and almost identical to the nazi party except they were led by aristocrats and wanted a furher but they wanted the kaiser or a relative to be der furher. they compromised when they lost a lot of popular support and dropped to eight per cent in the polls. they then joined the nazi's starting in 1932 and complete by 1934. they crought the german industrialists with them and were party of the coalition that passed the enabling act that allowed hitler to asume total power.
so a nice con to say one was dnvp or stahlhelm, as norbert's father used to say. except that norberts fater was thieteen when the dnvp and stahlhelm disappeared into the nazi party. ignoring that between 13/14 and 20 helmut ruebsaat, norbert's father, was in the ss and a member of the junior nazi party and when of age, 18, he joined the ss and the formal party. you just forget what happened between 1932 and 1940 and presto you\re not a nazi! of course while he was alive helmut told people he was thirteen when the war broke out so he could pretend he was too young. the truth was revealed in his obituary.

this is how you do waldheimer disease(you forget what yopu did during the war), a few tweaks here and there and no one will know. grass was ss by ideology or maybe cowardice--you could get out of fighting on the front in some ss units--at least untill near the end. and of course it was very prestigeous.

so that;s how its done. then you are a good german who didn't know anythoing about the holocoust nor other atrocities. you were just a jew hating qristoctatic fascist--not a nazi at all.and all your friends and family become good germans even joe offer. who reads history anyway?who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: ollaimh
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:42 PM

and thasnks again richard for pointing out my physical disability. yes i have trouble typing with a couple of physical disabilities. perhaps you suport the nazi policy of exterminating those with disabilities?

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: ollaimh
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:48 PM

finally , yes i blame those caught up in the social scene and thus helping with atrocities. for evil to prosper all that needs happen is good men do nothing. those who did something should be aplauded. those like joe offer who do nothing needn't be harshly punished but do not deserve any postion of power.

ratzinger should be able to be a priest, but he should have been forever ruled out as a leader by his past, some sins are so severe thay require more than an apology, they require atonement.
are you listening joe? this children and the wife you listened to being beaten and did nothing--have you atoned to them?

the present pope is being investigated for obstruction of justice in germany for his handling of the child rape cases that he reviewed as a bishop. i doubt he will be charged because of the political influence of the church. however his tolerance of egrigious abuses while a teen hitler youth and as a bishop are no coincidence(imnho)

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 12 - 03:20 PM

What's this about Joe Offer? Back it up, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: ollaimh
Date: 23 May 12 - 10:16 PM

read the other discussion on abusing catholic priests, do your own backup, ignorance is no excuse.there weas a long discussion where joe said he had a wife and child beating neighbour and he didn't call the police.

i do wish to point out that there has been a long and deep alliance between the catholic church and fascists. the vatican issued the passports for the escaping war criminals, and protected paul touvier, the french nazi for decades. it is no accident they habve atolerance for fascists and nazis and non accident that people on these discussions who are repeat catholic apologists are also loath to discuss nazi's in our midst.finally it's no accident that these same people are tolerant or willing to ignore child beating abuse and molestation.

the catholic church has a long hostory of subverting justice, both for war criminals and child rapists. in addition they were instrumental in the genocide of native children in north america. the apologists are either hiding theorn heads in the sand or , more likely unconcerned about nazis fascists child rapists and justice in general, but just concerbed with the power and reputation of the church--too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Gunter Grass: 'What Must Be Said'
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 12 - 11:38 PM

Joe Offer: "When I lived in Sacramento in the 1980s, the man across the street beat his kids. Not brutally, but he'd lose his temper all the time; and he'd hit them a lot, yelling terrible things at them. Sometimes, I did quiet things to intervene, but I never reported him to the police. I figured it was his wife's responsibility to do that. Everybody in the neighborhood knew he was beating his kids, and I was the only one who even made a feeble attempt to intervene - and believe me, my attempt was feeble.
"You watch something like that, and you don't know what to do. You're half afraid that calling the police will just make him madder and more likely to harm a child. And he and his wife lost a child to drowning early in their marriage - was that the cause of his anger, or was the death of his child really his fault somehow.
"All I can say is that I saw it, and I didn't know what to do. Eventually, the wife divorced him and he moved out of the house, and the neighborhood quieted down. But his angry outbursts were a disconcertment in the neighborhood for a long, long time; and nobody did anything about it."

It might be kept in mind that in the last 20 years we all of us - have become a great deal more sensitized to child abuse and domestic violence and our responsibilities to children. Think of the days, not too long ago, when police themselves didn't interfere with the battles between husband and wife. That has changed.

There was a time when if I had seen a person mistreating a dog I would have done nothing about it except scowl and hurry away. Ihere was this presumption of ownership- and that no longer pertains. Nowadays I wouldn't hesitate to intervene, to call the police and the Humane Society and make it clear that the animal should be confiscated.