No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 09:42 AM

How do I make a contribution? Please be specific as I am new to the mudcatters Thanks

kindest regards

Patrish

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 06:21 AM

I echo the advice given, though I don't know US law. Here in the UK the NPA (Newspapaer Publishers Association) demanded licence payments from Universities for imagined multiple copying. Although advice from those overseeing the copiers was that there was no evidence that this was going on & that in any case individuals were responsible for their own adherence to copyright laws, the institutions were scared of possible action and signed and paid up for licences to permit them to do what they might never do and what might have been legal under educational fair dealing any way.
Certainly challenge them to come up with concrete examples.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 01:42 AM

T-

Good advice--but please, remember that this is a public forum and anything you say here--well, you know the drill..

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Dave Swan
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 01:41 AM

Max,

Here are my best wishes, my indignation, and a few frogskins. All of us are in support of you. Those who wish to have a few pints in order to p*ss on these cretins, form a line. I'm buying. Dave

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 12:00 AM

Max, as usual this is not legal advice, does not establish a lawyer-client relationship, this is just my private opinion, etc.

I disagree with those who advise you to ignore the letter. IF the letter truly comes from the NMPA, I think you should respond (as I gather you are planning to do) saying that you DO have permisson to post copyrighted lyrics, so there! You might add that if any copyrighted words were posted without permission, notwithstanding the efforts of your clearance department, you are very sorry and would they please specify which ones they know of that have been posted without permission ?

The wording of their letter ("as far as we are aware, no authority for such activities has been obtained") suggests that they don't know anything about the Mudcat except that it posts lyrics. It's possible that they have received complaints from some members whose work was inadvertently posted without permission. If they have received specific complaints, of course, it would be a very simple matter for them to specify what lyrics are complained of. But my hunch is that they don't realize that you're already way ahead of them: you've already gotten permission (haven't you?) for most of the copyrighted lyrics on DT. Tell them that, and they may go away.

We should probably cull uncleared copyrighted lyrics from the forum thread archives, at least until we can get a lawyer's advice about them.

T.

and hey! gargoyle is back!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: DougR
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:50 PM

Question: Who is responsible for regulating the Internet anyway? Seems to me you can do just about anything you want to on the Internet. Am I wrong? (I have been one time before). DougR

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:31 PM

Gargoyle, you need to buy yourself a dictionary (large book with lots of words in alphabetical order) and look up "profit."

It still seems weird that some agency could claim they have more of a right to give something away than another agency. I also didn't see anything on their web page prohibiting further distribution.

They claim to be representing their "members." These people are so far nameless. How can they possibly expect you to investigate whether you've obtained permission from these "members" when you don't know who they're talking about? (Personal opinion: at this stage, they're just trying to intimidate you.)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:22 PM

Weird, I just sent off yesterday to Dick a song I wrote that he'd asked for & then asked Max if he would put my name to one of my songs that's in the DT. I'll post a check tomorrow along with written permission for any of my songs you post. Barry

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: MMario
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:20 PM

garg....NOWHERE is "non-profit" defined as "no income"

lighten up!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:20 PM

glory be, but Max has more tolerance than I would..(met him this last weekend...lovely Rolls Royce he was driving with those t-shirt profits)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:15 PM

I know I keep saying this over and over, but I am sure this is true; THEY ARE POWERLESS. THEY CANNOT MAKE A LEGITIMATE CLAIM OF COPYRIGHT VIOLATION. They are not providing a service to protect the rights of songwriters, they are making profit over the vagueness in the laws, and people's willingness to be bullied. F*ck 'em!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: _gargoyle
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:10 PM

Non-Profit....?????

Hats...T-Shirts....."kick-backs"

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:06 PM

I think the "60.000 free lyrics" is the reason for all of this--it could easily be construed that their intent is to get exclusive control of distribution of song lyrics on the web-- I can not help but notice the change that has taken place on the UBL, which once was a site that linked one to lyrics and fan pages, but now offers info on artists and has a shopping basket for your purchases--

If this is indeed the case(of course, I only postulate it, theoretically, as one of many possibilities) there may be reason to request anh h investigation from the justice department--

At a point in the near future, we should do a little web research and gather whatever information is available on other actions of this sort and their ultimate results--

At this point, I suggest forming a committee of some sort to oranganize efforts and create useful partnerships--

In addition, I recommend taking strategic and planning discussions to a listserve type arrangement, as it is possible for the HFA people to monitor all these discussions--

The reason for becoming a non-profit is simple--it makes it possible to solicit and collect money for any legal pursuits that may become necessary--

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: _gargoyle
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:39 PM

ahhhhh....what sort of a belly-crawlin-vile-scum-suckin-creep would have revealed the muck of the Mud to the "copyright police!"

Wellp' I guess it is goodbye MC....hello again...to the ol' DT.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:38 PM

One thing strikes me as being very weird. They offer free lyrics to "over 60,000 songs" on their own website. If they give them away for free, how can they possibly say you can't?

I agree they need to get more specific. If they don't tell you which songs by which "members," they can't say it's "willful copyright infringement." I would also make sure the return address is valid, and try to contact Charles Sanders personally. I think it sounds like a scare or a practical joke.

Would you like to tell us their mailing address? I don't have much mind left, but I'm very willing to share a piece of it with them.

I owe you a contribution anyway - on behalf of myself and on behalf of Graham Pirt who just sent me a gold mine of Keith Marsden/Cockersdale songs and asked only that I contribute.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Mudjack
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:18 PM

Getting ready to leave the state for 6 days, will pick this back up in a week unless I can get on someone's PC in our travels. Will surely be supportive,
Mudjack

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:10 PM

Utah Phillips' radio show was rebroadcast on pledge time for KBOO in Portland, so I was able to catch a piece of it, wherein he discussed his letter from the musical power elite about "Wabash Cannonbill." He said that many people are under the misconception that Roy Acuff wrote it, and he was delighted to fire back an angry letter saying just how long 'bos had been singing the song, and he had documentation from the Library of Congress to prove it.

Now, that might not have happened if Utah hadn't actually done time as a hobo, and was also a trained archivist who could do the research. Too bad that commercial music is full of stuff like this.

He also had a great story about taking The Wabash Cannonball (train) on its last run -- by accident; some of you must know that he refuses to transport by gas guzzler since the Gulf (Oil) War. According to U., every country western star was busy getting their picture took on that train. The train was actually named after the song, and not the other way around.

'Course, Utah has been known to stretch a point ...

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:07 PM

Max, did you get my private post? For what it's worth, I deal with lawyers alot. That letter requires NO answer. You don't have to answer anything but a lawsuit, in court and only subpoenas from judges...right Pat?

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:38 PM

I think M.Ted is right; it looks like a trawling exercise by greedy lawyers who are acting on their own behalf in the hope of cornering what they hope might become a lucrative market. If required to specify what material is at issue, they might just disappear; I doubt if they actually know. That said, the U.S legal system is a bit of a mystery to those of us who live in other countries not (yet) subject to it, so clearly this has to be taken seriously. It's true that there are songs on the database which are not credited to their writers, but there are probably a lot more that are credited to people who have simply claimed a copyright to which they have no moral entitlement. In the latter case, an alternative version could be substituted. Meanwhile, I shall send a contribution to the fighting fund just as soon as I can make the form work for me! Good luck,

Malcolm Douglas

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:21 PM

I'm old enough to remember when ASCAP or BMI went after the Catholic Church for photocopying music, and collected big-time. I'm afraid non-profit really is unrelated, except for PR value. (Remember the Girl Scouts and Happy Birthday??)

I was in one workshop about a year ago, where the teacher handed out some exercises consisting of the first one-tenth of copyrighted songs; he said this was the legal limit. (Using the work in its entirety is not.) For photocopying copyrighted printed material in a library, it is one-quarter.

The city of Chicago used to send out these blanket letters to anyone who had any at all outstanding parking tickets within the stature of limitations, with the statement "You may be liable to legal action."

My lawyer's comment? "Yeah, and the sun may not rise tomorrow."

Which doesn't help the sleazy feeling this fear-mongering gives us.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Banjer
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:07 PM

I don't usually understand nor pretend to understand all the legallese connected to copyrights and all tha goes with it. My contribution went in about ten minutes ago via the secure server. Let's get enough money together to defeat these idiots and go on with life.....I get so damn aggitated at everybody always tryin' to make a profit off of somethin' I enjoy....

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:58 PM

I understand and support, totally, the process as we know it here, and in folk music, but I also understand the part of the artist, esp in classical music. I would not be happy about the copyrights on my brother's symphonies and piano concertos expiring any sooner than is already in place. There must be some sort of happy medium. Excellent points, well put, though T-bird.

kat

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:52 PM

I would like to donate a flower-pot to this moment in Mudcat time...Just send $50.00 to Max and I will mail you a pot I have made for both The White House and Monticello..It is taken{Inspired} by the portrate of "Rubens Peale With Geranium"1801 {Public Domane!!!!} I will take up to 10 hits this way or $500.00<<<>>> All takers just leave your adress { plus phone # for the UPS man} with MAx along with your check and he can pass the adresses on to me.. My best to Max and all my friends at Mudcat!!! Yours Guy

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Alice
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:49 PM

wow. I leave for a day and come back to this news. M.Ted has it right. Request that they respond with the information he outlined. Haven't we asked this question several times - "Is there a lawyer in the house?"

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:38 PM

Max---You know we're with you!

Art

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: T. in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:37 PM

For good or for ill, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just someone who's miffed at the way the copyright interests keep squeezing and squeezing, trying to turn the law to their favor every way they can.

I'm pretty sure that not-for-profit status has no effect on whether you can publish lyrics. It may matter to whether and how the Mudcat comes under other areas of copyright (e.g. the radio program). The Lyrics in the DT, though, must all be in the public domain or copyright-cleared. This probably is the vast majority, isn't it? So even if we have to cull the DT of uncleared copyrights, we'll still have a pretty big database ?

As I mentioned earlier, the occasional posting of copyrighted lyrics to this forum (as opposed to the DT) OUGHT to be a fair use. There's nothing systematic about it (as was the case with intabulations posted to the OLGA). It's just once in a while, it isn't the main purpose of the forum, no one can find them through a web search (at least I don't think so), and most threads vanish after a few weeks into the forum archive, their existence known only to a few regulars. But to be safe, we may have to cull those posts from the forum archive. We can substitute a message like "Lyric withdrawn due to threats from _____ (substitute some appropriate epithet or designation). See the following book" followed by a citation to a book where the lyrics can be found, or by a hyperlink to a well-heeled lyric server that can afford clearance.

This demand from the NMPA wouldn't be so annoying if the duration of copyright were more reasonable. (I hope y'all don't mind. I can't resist going on about one of my pet peeves.) I hope our Australian, Canadian, Japanese, Swiss, and other friends encourage their lawmakers to hold the line at life plus 50 years (which is still too long), at least while the recent U.S. extension is being challenged in court. Maybe the recent orgy of copyright extensions can be reversed, or maybe, at least, we can be well enough organized to have a fighting chance of preventing the next extension when the entertainment industry asks for one in about 15 years.

T.

Disclaimer: as usual on the web, this post is private opinion, nothing in this post is legal advice, and nothing in this post establishes a lawyer-client relationship. (I'm not even a lawyer!)

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:20 PM

Excellent post Ted...and from reading other posts of yours I have reason to believe you know of what you speak. And your points make much sense.

Spaw

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Gorgeous Gary
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:05 PM

ISTR reading in an IRS pub on non-profits (No. 557, I **think**) that you can automatically claim 501(c)3 if your org's annual income is under $5000 a year, without having to file. Filing is required only if your income is over $5000 or if you have an actual need for the letter of determination to show someone.

I can actually see both sides in this debate. I understand NMPA's position; they're afraid we won't buy their artists' songbooks if we can get the lyrics here for free. OTOH, even if I can get someone's lyrics off the web, I **still** would usually need the songbook for the chords (and the tune!).

This is also why I'm going to be real careful about getting permission before I post that song the Getaway folks want me to post. The people who have the rights to that particular one are also **very** protective of their rights.

-- Gary

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:03 PM

I knew it was only a matter of time before these *expletive deleted* hit on Mudcat! These people are associated with the Harry Fox Agency, who basically collect mechanical royalties--performance royalties for recordings and films, and yes, though they are real, this is basically a shake the tree and see what falls out expedition--more designed to show that they rule the internet than to really excercise legal anything--

The On-line Guitar Archive and many others have had the same letter--and they went through all of this other stuff that you are proposing--

They have a team of volunteer lawyers in place, who are acting on this, and it would be wise to get together with them--

The legal grounds for their request are thin, and the fact of the matter is that Harry Fox Agency does not actually represent the publishers for the lisensing of publication, when pressed as to their justification in sending these letters out, they say that they are sending this notice as a courtesy to their members--

Oddly enough, since no legal action has been commenced, no action is necessary--but the best response is probably the one suggested above--

In the response, you should ask that they supply you with a specific list of all the songs that they feel violate a copyright, what the legal grounds are for claiming that violation, and the names of the publishers and the copy right holders, and documentation that substantiates their claim that they are authorized by the publishers and copy right holders to act on their behalves--

then assure them that, at the time they provide you with this documentation, you will take appropriate measures--

at OLGA-- they decided to pull the site until they got all the legal issues resolved--but there still was legal consensus that the postings were well within proscriptions of the law.

If worse comes to worse, the real resolution is to get permission to reproduce lyrics--this can be resolved with direct correspondence to the publishers and authors--The people who publish "Rise Up and Sing" had to do this--so it might be worth a phone call or something to see how it was done--

There are more than 30,000 music publishers, and it will be a lot of work for the NMPA to connect songs with publishers to determine what any of their members have a claim on--you can bet that, if they do that, it will take a long time--

Some of the stuff in the DAT is public domain, and a some of the rest of it is copyright expired--when you think about it, much of the rest of it is probably owned by people that are friends and associates--as Max has said, some permission has been granted--

MTed

Note: I am not an attorney, nor do I claim to be an attorney--as a member of this list, I am only expressing my opinion--

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: j0_77
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:51 PM

Most of the posts here I notice are discussions about things and a lot are not about music.

Majority of songs are Folk songs which as far as I know are not copyright.

I believe the whole thing is a smoke screen to nail the radio/audio resources. Hang in there folks. MP3 is still there and allows free exchange of original/evolved material.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:43 PM

I'm smashing my piggy bank right now Max. The suggestions to seek advice from a copyright lawyer will hopefully help ease the concerns here and put this situation in perspective. Little Neo

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:40 PM

Max,

Geezis....I'm out of pocket as it were for a few days, just a couple of check-ins, and tonight I find this.

Look at the posts here and you know we're in this too. My money via MC debit was put through to you on the Secure Server and I'll touch base with you tomorrow PM.

This is some fockin' bullshit, but at least it got me off my fatass contributionwise.

Let's keep all those other plans of yours in the works.

Spaw

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:33 PM

Don, can you provide Max with a photo of a similar bracelet? I'd really like to see it, or you could just email it to me, but I suspect others will want to see it, too.

You can go to the Mudcat Auction and enter it as an item, with a picture attachment or not. That way you get to describe it, decide what percentage you want the Mudcat to get; and name a minimum bid.

I have put four necklaces on there, today. Photos will be up as soon as Max has a chance. These are not custom designs, although they are one-of-a-kind originals; nothing fancy, a couple of fun ones and a couple of very simple, kind of elegant ones.

Also, there is an old collector's cardboard phonograph record of Rudy Vallee, with his picture on one side, which I listed. An early radio days promotional item.

What was that saying, do it and apologise (or plead ignorance) later...something like that; Max is right, we should not be scared off by this.

kat

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:31 PM

There are situations where blanket accusations are made, simply in order to 'formally' serve notice when THEY have no idea what is at issue....you have ALWAYS stated willingness to remove copyrighted stuff from the database if requested...as to things that appear in threads, does " participated in, caused or authorized," cover something I might have typed in?

In any case, as of tonight my copy of Sing Out-Vol.I,no.2, is up for auction...will note it in a separate thread.and looking at other stuff

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:18 PM

MAX -

Don't forget; these b*stards really may have NO right to make demands of you. They probably CANNOT touch you. And they ceratinly have no right to expect you to respond to such vague accustaions. What if the police stopped you and said, "We didn't see you drive the last few miles, but we know you broke some laws, so we want you to write down all of the laws you broke, and we'll write you a ticket!"

Bullsh*it! They can't make you do that! If these guys have a legitimate beef, they can be specific. I think you'll find they haven't any songs 'they own' in your database. i think you'll finf they formed their company, and they wrote thousands of generic (mis-spelled) letters to every organization they could think of, in order to get annual dues. They don't really protect artists like us.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: alison
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:06 PM

Hi Max,

good luck,

I just tried to send you money using the secure server... didn't work.. will leave you the message in the help forum.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: DougR
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:06 PM

Max: My contribution via my Visa card is on the way.

If you are already incorporated as a 501c3 organization in PA, I see no need to further incorporate. You have your exemption from taxes letter from the IRS for the Foundation, right? Simply work everything through the Foundation. Wouldn't that make sense?

I am with those that don't believe your status as a non-profit will shield you from this kind of thing though. If they have a legitimate complaint, you may have no choice other than to comply with what they want or face litigation. Some good Attorney who also enjoys the fruits of the Mudcat could surely advise you how successful you might be, even if you could afford to defend yourself.

Bummer.

DougR

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Max
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 07:03 PM

I added "Contact Us" into Quicklinks because I notice a lot of folks ask about how to send stuff. Thank you to everyone for your support. I checked out the IRS site, and printed all the 501c3 stuff to put me to sleep tonight. I will be composing a letter this weekend to be sent monday to the NMPA. I am not panicking and neither should anyone else. Please post lyrics as usual, don't be affraid. If we alter our righteous-to-begin-with behaviour, they are winning in at least one way.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Gint
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 06:50 PM

How do you stand in U.S. law as a lending or refernce library

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Gint
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 06:46 PM

In answer to Llanfair most U.K banks and definately National Westminster and Barclays can organize cash transfers in U.S. dollars if you have the recipeints bank details.

I have 2 visits on sites for shows next year but can let you know full details next thursday when I have sent my donation

Subject: RE: Trouble
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 06:37 PM

Max,

A check is in the mail tomorrow to the address above in the attorney's letter. I can't believe that there is no lawyer among us who will do a pro bono gig to help moderate the situation for you.

For the auction: A Sterling Silver bracelet of a style known as The Jeweler's Choice made to fit the size of the person who wins the bid. The bracelet will be mailed to the winner at my expense and if it is the wrong soze we will swap bracelets through the mail till we have one that fits. This bracelet is the last style my father designed for production before he passed away and it is piece that is quite striking in appearance. Wear it as a casual piece (With jeans, Spaw,) or for dress up,( thats how you don't dress, Spaw.)

Let me know how else I can help.

Donald R. Meixner, Silversmith

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Matthew B.
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 06:30 PM

Let's start a "Lawyer Neeeded!!" thread with a link to this one. We need to get people onto this ASAP, and it might call attention to the problem more quickly.

However, it is my unqualified opinion that we don't need to slit our wrists just yet all at once. It might make more sense to get as prepared as we need to be but take a "wait and see" stance on things, only complying with their "wishes" when absolutely necessary.

It also might make sense to find out how all those Beatles, Doo-wap, R&B, C&W and other lyrics websites (and there are many) handle this type of situation. Have they ever encountered a problem of this kind? How did they handle it? What was the outcome? And lastly, have they ever banded together for strentgh, with jointly appointed legal representation (which Mudcat could take advantage of)? Max, a simple form letter to their webmasters could get the ball rolling on getting the answers to these questions and more. United we stand!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: bbc
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 06:03 PM

I'm frustrated. I was just about to post what is probably my second copyrighted set of song lyrics (guilt!). Guess I won't. Just sent in VISA, Max.

love you,

bbc

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Uilleand
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 05:58 PM

Max, the IRS website (an excellent resource)provides detailed steps on how to get tax-exempt status. Since I don't much about the mudcat setup, it would be more helpful if you could read through it. It seems very straight forward. If there is paperwork to be done, I can try and do some but need the information from you. I downloaded the 1023 Package of forms to file for tax-exempt status which is available on the website. Since mudcat is already incorporated I don't think an attorney will be necessary to apply. The website is www.irs.gov/bus_info/eo/index.html

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 05:58 PM

I have just been listening to the Oct 14th radio show where y'all discussed this letter. I think you are correct in your approach; you are not for profit, and they MUST tell you what specific complaint they have or you cannot respond. It is very likely that none of the publishers in their organization have any lyrics listed on your site; make them prove you have erred in this way! You probably DO NOT NEED TO COMPLY WITH THEIR DEMAND, even though they claim you do, because you are nonprofit. Because there can be no claim that any profit is being gleanned from these posts.

I suspect that this organization, like the others, is just trying to scare organizations like yours into buying yearly renewed memberships ... they are playing a numbers game. They have no real power, and may serve no real purpose!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 05:43 PM

liam needs to get his brain connected to his fingers ... it appears that his typographical shortcomings leave his posts barely understandable!!

sorry folks (not floks) - I hope the previous message makes some sense!!!

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 05:29 PM

once again the pulisher nazis strike. folk music is flok music. how songs in this database bemoan man's pretense to own land, mountains, sea shores, etc? how much more absurd is one man or woman's claim to ownership of performance art material.

as a songwriter and owner of copyrights, I understand the artist's wish to garner monetary recompense for his or her art work, and this opportunity is pretty well protected in our modern society ... but this demand from NMPA is truly exploitation.

you are right-on in pressing them for specifics. if they cannot provide you with specific complaints, they cannot expect a response. I would simply tell them to piss off, but then I am a confrontational type.

best of luck with these snakes ....

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 05:23 PM

Max - It seems like the worst-case scenario would be that you'd have to remove from the site lyrics for which you don't have written permission to post. (Since I contributed Loreena McKennitt's "All Soul's Night" without thinking about whether that was OK or not, I'm feeling partially responsible for this.) But that would mean removing those lyrics from Dick and Susan's database and the forum - what a pain. Still, if distributing those lyrics without permission is a copyright infringement, I don't see what choice we have.

I can just imagine the furtive nature of future requests for lyrics: "Does anyone have the lyrics to "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm OK"? DON'T POST THEM, they may be copyrighted, just leave them in the hollow tree at the intersection of Route 66 and 151. Thanks."

Anyway, the request for more specifics seems like the best course right now. They may be just fishing. Hang in there.

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 04:57 PM

If you want to know why I love you all so, just take a look at the posts here. My contribution is in the mail. If we all pitch in a little, our Mudcat will be OK.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: No Joke: Mudcat Under Attack
From: lamarca
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 04:09 PM

Sorry, folks, but NMPA is indeed a real organization, and constitutes a real threat to our Mudcat! Here is the Website for NMPA and a Press release about their recent licensing agreement with AOL. Sounds like they're trying to exert more control over Web publication of members' copyrighted songs. Also, a search on "NMPA" came up with this depressing precedent involving "educational use" of copyrighted material...

I think copyright search and permissions and stuff is a pretty arcane aspect of the law that needs to be done everytime a film or video or radio is released with a soundtrack, and we can't expect Max to foot the bill for the lawyers to help the DT with this. Let's all send our contributions for stuff like filing with ASCAP and for a 501C3 tax exemption, but also start asking around for friendly lawyers familiar with copyright law who might be willing to help out pro bono...