5 Things Killing the Music Industry

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Elmore
Date: 24 May 12 - 08:19 PM

Hadn't noticed the music industry was dying. My favorite new (to me} artists are Leonard Cohen, and The Metropolitan Opera Company.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 May 12 - 03:39 PM

Music as a business has at least two economic problems.

1. Consumer electronics have made it possible for the average person to copy muskc into different formats and either enjoy them or give them away. When musicians lost physical control of their music, they lost the chance to collect the money.

In 1890, if I wanted to play "After the Ball," I had to go to a shop and hand over the money. Now I can borrow the original from the library, create a MIDI, and give it to millions of people.

2. Last Christmas, I thought I would make a video of me singing "The Little Drummer Boy" for the kids in my family. I tried to get permission, but I couldn't figure how to get it. I was willing to pay, but nobody was organized enough to sell me permission.

After looking at a dozen sites, it seemed that I would have to call somebody in England on the telephone. I dropped the whole idea.

If they want to sell the rights, why don't they get on the ball and do it?

As a boss of mine used to say, "Some people just like to play businessman."

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,raquel
Date: 24 May 12 - 10:59 AM

NOW ITS NOT REALLY ABOUT TALENT NOW

Its all about looks and wat ever muisc sells well.

ITS NOT MUSIC , I MEAN NOT REAL MUSIC BUT ITS SELL. THAT THE PROBLEM.

girls are fucking taking over . thats why JB IS famous.
NOW its so easy to get a record deal , 20 years ago do you think LAMOA "sexy and you know it" band, will GET A a record deal. FUCK NO

NOW i know why alot people love ADELE cause she doing like you should.      use your real voice , write your own music , put quality songs out and over all a damn good ablum . right or wrong.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Dumb Teenager
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 01:41 PM

I'd really like to believe you, Guest from Sanity, but "Itsy Bitsy, Teenie Weenie, Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" is still ringing in my ears...

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 01:57 AM

Good music LASTS the test of time! Cheap, throw away stuff, people don't remember. We need those who can change BACK, to pick up the creativity, in both sound, lyrics, chops and taste. Build it....we've had a lifetime to double-check your notes, and observe what hits people, INSIDE! When 'hip' fails, try honesty!

GfS

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Dumb Teenager
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 12:34 AM

If you've seen the error of you ways, josepp, it makes us feel as though our hard work ain't been in vain for nothin'.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 12:15 AM

Well, maybe comparable to Glenn Miller. But I think James Brown and Tommy Dorsey are probably better.   But then....hmm. Glenn Miller was idolized by teenage girls. I don't think James Brown was.

Hey! you got a point there, Josepp.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 11:53 PM

I, for one, have seen the error of my ways. Teenaged girls are smart and Justin Bieber is every bit as good as James Brown or Tommy Dorsey or Glenn Miller.

You know, I just knew there was something wrong with the way I was looking at the world. I wanted substance but now realize I'm just a stupid old fogey who doesn't know very much and, like all such people, I was griping for sake of having something to gripe about. Everything's fine.

So now you'll excuse me while I acknowledge Katy Perry's talent even though I don't listen to anything she's done and then I'll go wallow in my bathtub full of sheet music from 1900. Life is good.

Thanks Mudcatters. I owe you one.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 10:12 PM

"It doesn't matter how crappy it is, if it sells then it's highly regarded."

There's crap and there's crap; that experience is ultimately personal. I do not like either Horse With No Name or Stairway to Heaven. They are as far as I'm concerned absolute shite. But I do like Beach Baby and Listen to the Band. I've met people who now think I'm an idiot because I see the material that way. All four songs were monster hits way back.

Go Your Own Way has one of the greatest guitar rock-solos of all time, and the feelings it evokes in me recalls We Shall Overcome (done by Pete Seeger at Carnegie Hall) on his We Shall Overcome album. Music has always been intensely personal to me; it's one of few things that allows me to glimpse the fervour of people who truly believe in a Higher Being of some sort.

Some musicians have communicated directly with angels: Stravinsky, Mahler, the deaf guy who taught us all that disabilities can be surmounted and that the doing so can inspire even the least among us. As a consumer of music/song lyrics/melodies, I love genius and do my best to appreciate it.

Justin Bieber is a creation, but the young man has ability. Kinda like Pinocchio. I have no idea that the music industry is an actual industry although it seems to be such. I do have an idea that some folks have tried to tie up a piece of the market and choke whatever they do not see as beneficial to their interests. That said, regardless of one's musical proclivities it's possible to appreciate music 'outside' one's comfort zone, or someone else's comfort zone.

Midnight Blue is from Beethoven. As a 'rock' song it's awesome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bhoukHsSyG0 That's where art meets the world, and music marries itself to the best humans can accomplish.

In the words of the prophet/profit, fuck 'em. Like what you like, because ain't no one else gonna like it on your behalf.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:45 PM

Aha! I knew it! It's not the likes of Justin Bieber and Katy Perry killing the music industry. It all started with Sing-a-long-with Mitch. Debate that one, Josepp.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Dumb Teenager
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:04 PM

They did a lot to annoy us, though. Lawrence Welk, Sing-A-Long with Mitch, no one ever sang along with anything after that!;-)

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:56 PM

There's that, DT. Because I'm pretty sure we never did anything to annoy our elders. Well, I know I didn't. lol

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Dumb Teenager
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:40 PM

GUEST, 999, It seems like every generation of adults finds teenage music annoying, no matter what kind of music it is. I think they are really just annoyed by the teenagers.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:09 PM

GUEST,GUEST, Dumb Teenager, I heard the same stuff from many of my elders when I was a teenager 50 years ago. It usually went, "HOW can you LISTEN to THAT?"

from another Dumb Teenager.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:45 AM

Greed what else?

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:41 AM

in the last ten years I have bought Zero cds of a "mainstream" industry type nature..
for the last ten years I have mostly been buying cds from blokes and lasses that sang the songs on the cd ,in the pub or club where I heard them live...
I can find my own music heroes and don't need the big bucks business hype or the affirmation of my peers to figure out what I like..
Surely I am not the only one ?

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:20 AM

As my grandmother said to my mother "I don't know what you see in those Savoy Orpheans, it's just plink-a-plunk-a-plink-a-plunk".

90% of everything is shit. We just remember the memorable bits and the rest fades.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:59 AM

Other post had a typo in it that changed the meaning of the sentence(sorta). This is the good one. OK, 'Mod-Elves', do your stuff...


I agree with Will Fly. With the internet, you don't have to worry about the 'industry'...spend your energies on your instrument, including your voice. the human voice is the ONLY instrument on the planet that pronounces words!......for God's sakes, PRONOUNCE THE WORDS, and don't hide behind style!!
Along with that, and Mudcat has been GREAT for this, THINK DEEPER!
If your do 'folk' try to reach the mass common denominator of folks...not some faction you think your politics would fit into...or vice verse.
if you have the gift of music, do EVERYTHING to learn as much as you can about it. I've said this on here before, Musicians are as a different breed of people...DO NOT waste your 'difference' trying to be the same!! If you want to be 'different', be excellent!!(I raised my kids teaching them that...and it works! 'Build it, and they will come!'
Music, when done right, DRAWS PEOPLE TOGETHER...the 'industry' force feeds 'trends' to sell!!........but once in a while, something excellent stands out.....the more it gets out, the more demand...and there are plenty of marketing options online...WITHOUT the 'industry'!!!! Perhaps the 'industry' should LISTEN to the heart and soul of where the music COMES FROM, instead of how to distribute mental junk food...and employing cheapness to create appeal to lower mentality noise junkies!   

OK...I'm off the soap-box.....but it's true!

GfS

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,GUEST, Dumb Teenager
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:28 AM

Larry, the "you don't know much if" was a rhetorical device, and I probably should have left it alone. If I offended you josepp, I am sorry.

That said, I cut and pasted that "teenage girl" line from you, josepp-- but you were referring to contemporary music.

In retrospect, I may not have been clear, but I only meant to point out that people used to say the same thing that you did, only about those swing bands that you mentioned, as well as the later R&B artists.

However, I also feel very strongly that you shouldn't judge music by the audience, or by stereotypes of the audience. Teenage girls have as good an ear for music as anybody else.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:32 AM

A hundred years ago a quarter section (sq mi/4) of land in Alberta kept a family. As markets grew, sales people, transportation companies, distribution agents, advertisers and end users from far away got into the picture. Farmers received basically the same amount of money for their products but the cost to end users rose because of all the hands the product passed through. And even farmers became end users over time. The family farm is dying. I know of very few small farms that do not struggle.

Some advances in seed and farming have been hugely beneficial to both producers and end users: wheat with higher yield and less waste; research into the triticales; harvesting methods, etc. Some other aspects are less than desirable: Monsanto is one of these, imo.

Then there's the bakers who produce the breads we depend on so much. Some make it the way grandmother did, and others have added twists and turns to produce different examples of bread-baking. These days we have large commercial companies that produce breads some of which are pretty darned good and others that are deplorable in quality and taste. There are still home-style bakeries around and doing OK.

Agribusiness (something that used to be called farming) has changed the nature of the thing it used to be. Today we have agribusiness people and farmers.

##########################

I seem to have written the above on the wrong thread. Sorry.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:03 AM

I seem to be somewhat insulated from the demise of the music industry.

I don't listen to pop radio and I haven't been in a place that has a juke box in decades. The number of radio stations I listen to during the day is deliberately small. I listen to my local NPR affiliate (KUOW-FM) for morning news and local discussions early in the day. The station has some excellent interviewers who ask guests the same questions I would ask them. Then, I usually switch to KING-FM, which is a classical music station. Listener supported, so no commercials. One of the afternoon announcers plays classic guitar himself, so he's in the habit of playing a fair number of classic guitar records.

On weekends, I sometimes listen to KBCS-FM, which is another college station. They have a number of programs that feature folk music, and with some frequency someone goofs and plays an actual traditional song or two.

On my shelves, between classical and folk music, I have a good four feet of vinyl records (stacked on edge) and my wife has at least as much. We also have a sizable bookshelf that's full of CDs of various genres. Classical, opera, folk, early music, lotsa stuff.

All purchased legally over time.

We think very carefully before we buy anything new. The last CD I purchased was from a young woman who lives in the same apartment building we do. She's a singer-songwriter and writes some fairly interesting stuff. I bought it from her for two reasons. Good songs well sung, and in the spirit of "support your local musician."

A note on my likes and dislikes as far as my own performing is concerned. Arena-sized venues? Only a couple of times, to crowds of around 6,000. The other singers and I were well received, but I didn't think it was that good a venue for traditional folk music, which is what I sing. I much prefer small theaters, churches, and best of all, house concerts.

I don't think the "music industry" is much interested in things on that small a scale.

Don Firth

P. S. Most of what gets played on pop radio these days sets my teeth on edge. But then, I'm well into my fogeyhood.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Beer
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:07 PM

Spleen Cringe I also like what you wrote. in fact i really really like what you wrote.
ad.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:37 PM

Chord Chucker: Yes, there was a music industry in 1900, but it was much less centralized, and there was much less money in it. In those days, a hit song was one that sold a lot of sheet music, so that a lot of people could play it on their own pianos & sing it themselves. One may study what has happened since then in an interesting book, _How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
[ignore that part of the title; it was stuck on by the publisher]: An Alternative History of American Popular Music_ by Elijah Wald (Oxford U.P., 2009); I am hoping to put a review of it on LiveJournal by & by. It appears that until the 1890s making money in the music business was as catch-as-catch-can thing, but then one song, "After the Ball", became extraordinarily successful, a superhit. It couldn't have happened to a nicer song, but it attracted a lot of vermin into the business.

Why they were able to take over is not clear. One is tempted to imagine that it was the exploitation of new technology, beginning with the phonograph; but it seems that the public temper had been prepared for massification well in advance of that. In 1905 G. K. Chesterton wrote: "Once men sang together round a table in chorus; now one man sings alone, for the absurd reason that he can sing better." He could stick that arrow into the encroaching depravity, but he could not stop it.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 06:57 PM

Cone on, folks. Keep it civil.

It is getting a bit personal, Guest, to say that Josepp doesn't know much. While I disagree with him, I think he knows a lot--particularly about jazz.

At the same time, Josepp, I think you're splitting hairs. The point that is being made is that it's not 'teenage girls' who are today killing the music industry, anymore than it was in the past.

And I suspect that it's not only teen girls who appreciate Justin Bieber. The boy does have a certain talent, even if it doesn't speak to me. But yes....the music industry is driven by youth.   More so than before? I don't know.

And as those youth mature, they (hopefully) discard the musical loves that have no substance, and find new ones.

I think the industry as an industry probably does deserve to die.

Of bigger concern to me is how satiated audiences are getting from hearing so much "product"....and I think the best way to revitalize it would be for all performers to take songs seriously....to be always looking for new great material instead of feeling we have to write our own.

And I think that Stringsinger has made the best points here in talking about one of the big differences that is hurting the industry and diminishing the appreciation of the 'music' is the increasing royalty fees that go to prop up the already powerful, rather than the songwriters who are creating gems.

My solution? Fight ASCAP, BMI, CAPAC, SOCAN, etc. wherever you can. And look for great songs and spread them around!

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 06:11 PM

////Then you don't know much, josepp. The Dorseys, Glen Miller, Artie Shaw, Bob Crosby, were the ones that the "Bobby Soxers" danced to. And a few years later, it was Little Richard, The Ravens, The Orioles, James Brown, Johnny Ace. Teenagers bought records and played the jukeboxes, and that was where the business was at in those days.////

I never asserted otherwise, did I? It is you who is wrong by saying that ONLY teen girls listened to these bands. I don't know how more wrong anyone could ever be than to assert that. And don't tell me you weren't saying that. Go back and read the statement of mine that you disputed.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,BoB
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 03:24 PM

The old industry is also dieing.

http://lextekreport.com/2011/04/12/code-law-money-and-john-philip-sousa/

BoB

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 01:08 PM

If I could agree with Spleen Cringe a hundred and ten percent, I would.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 12:16 PM

Depends what you mean by 'music industry'. Most of the interesting stuff I've bought over the past few years has been self-released by the artists or released on small, independent labels - often run part time, on a shoe-string, as a labour of love.

The thing is, there's probably more good music out there than ever and most of it will sell no more than a few hundred copies at best. It's luck of the draw who will get to hear it, because so much of it is part of that sprawling, decentralised, off-piste cottage industry that is 1000 times more vibrant than the official music industry but slightly under the radar.

I like the approach of a friend of mine who is an incredibly talented guitarist, songwriter and sound engineer. He makes music for the love of it, and as far as he's concerned, if there are 100 people in the world who 'get' what he does, he's happy. It isn't about making money or becoming famous or any of that: its simply about making music. Thankfully we're in a world where its easier than ever before to take that approach.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 12:15 PM

Then you don't know much, josepp. The Dorseys, Glen Miller, Artie Shaw, Bob Crosby, were the ones that the "Bobby Soxers" danced to. And a few years later, it was Little Richard, The Ravens, The Orioles, James Brown, Johnny Ace. Teenagers bought records and played the jukeboxes, and that was where the business was at in those days.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:55 AM

/////Thing is, josepp, many to most of those folks on your CDs were once "acts that only dumb teen girls could find palatable"./////

Well...we know that's not true. Yes, there were teen girls who listened to some of these artists but they were certainly not the only ones. The speakeasies and the black & tans weren't populated by teenaged girls. And I'll fall madly in love with any teenaged girl who tells me she listens to Dave Young and the only reason I say that so brazenly is because I know that's never going to happen.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:12 AM

JohnP is both right and wrong--it is true that people need to just go on playing, as they always have, and not let the "music industry" make or break them. However, power of "Music Industry" is trying to restrict our ability to perform, record, and distribute our own music. Witness that Mudcatters who have been ordered to remove their own original material from YouTube.

Stringsinger has the right idea--" Occupy the Music Biz" needs to happen.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: John P
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 10:36 AM

The music industry is just like any other industry and can be cheerfully ignored. Music will never die.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 10:32 AM

The solution is to take the view that Woody Guthrie took. Don't participate because in spite of negative circumstances, Woody, Esperanza, etc. will survive because they will be recognized eventually.

It's nice that the companies have released the "milestones" of jazz, country, rock etc. but these are museum pieces which have value but no bearing on the music industry today. YouTube is great because it is a museum piece resource.

There is a plethora of talented people who will be appreciated in their local communities as they should be regardless of the industry. What the industry does is to scout out these talents and then co-opt them to fit their business model. The best thing for these talents is not to play with the industry. Let them become industries of their own, their own recording companies, publishing outlets, and court ancillary agencies that will help them along because of interest in their talent other than just making a buck off of it.

I don't buy the argument that Napster is cheating the artists. No, these outlets are cheating the industry moguls who are cheating the artists. Do you think that unknown singer/songwriters who are in ASCAP or BMI are receiving immense royalties? (Just pennies). Those defenders of the industry against Napster etc. are pocketing the proceeds made by the artist who is being exploited by the industry by greed. Artists continue to be a commodity in the industry corporate mentality that is to be used up to make more money. It ties into the whole concept of corporation and there needs to be an Occupy the Music Biz. A complete reworking of the value system of the industry is analogous to the reworking of our political system in the US which is controlled by monied interests. The music biz is a reflection of our corporate oligarchic preoccupation with exploitation in the system.

The lawyers and salemen have taken over the music biz and the musicians are given short shrift. The solution is that the real musicians need to stand up and take control of their "product" (an unfortunate term like soap suds). That's what Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie and others have done and as a result, there is their influence which has created valuable music for society. That's ostensibly what the "Indie" business was supposed to do but the Indies bought into the industry hype and try to fashion their product so they can be picked up by major recording companies. (Big mistake!)

Time for musicians and musical artists to reclaim their talents.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: stallion
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 05:15 AM

It is interesting, that in this thread, there isn't, and never has been an equitable share in the cash pot generated by the "industry". My gripe is with music licences to record, on the last CD we did I knew that the money we paid would not reach, due to the rules on sharing out the money pot, the actual writers of the material, it would go into the zillion selling organisations pot. And, yet, there are people, in this forum, that vehemently defend the present copyright system. That I find puzzling since few of them can have made a fortune, it maybe they are expecting a big break, try buying a lottery ticket. As I have said before the "industry" is having convulsions as the old guard are trying to cling to their income streams as the ship falls apart. I am not sure where it will end up but I do know that although that some of the stored music is in outdated mediums like vinyl and tape I find all my music on the internet, I have just bought a CD of Gerry Hallom's Undiscovered Australia II on Amazon previously pony available on vinyl. I don't know if Gerry even knows it has been released on cd, I think an US company owns the rights to six of his cd's and the last time I spoke with Gerry he said they were not releasing his stuff on cd and that was about six months ago. I think Gerry would tour again if he had cd's to sell but is over a barrel by a recording company. The industry whiffs, t always has whiffed, bin it!

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 04:54 AM

we don't need to pay attention to what the 'music industry' is doing. turn off the tv and don't download. buy your music from real record shops (i ring coda records in edinburgh (folk country, roots) friendly service and next day delivery)and get to as many live gigs as possible. don't use amazon. or ticketmaster. as artists can't rely so much on sales they have to tour tour more -hard work for them but good news for us. our wee town has a small arts centre (150 seats) where we have seen spiers and boden, eliza carthy,michael mcgoldrick, kris drever, lunasa etc -all in the last year. big names in the folk world who i have also seen headlining at the many (smaller, friendly) festivals available for those of us no longer interested in what is currently popular or mainstream. musicians are still making real, good music we should support them and have nowt to do with those who want to steal it, sanitise it, package it and sell it back to us.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 03:30 AM

There is only one thing killing the music industry, everything else stems from it, GREED.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:41 PM

Thing is, josepp, many to most of those folks on your CDs were once "acts that only dumb teen girls could find palatable". Same for you, JoeF, if there hadn't been a music industry in 1900, you'd be listening to dead air.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 08:03 PM

"Most would agree that things must change to prevent the public from becoming bored." I dare say most would; but I don't. I have compiled a list, and am now assembling a book, of my 300 or so favorite songs. The median date of composition is 1900. I would do fine without a music industry.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 01:28 PM

I bought a big band swing anthology recently: 2 CDs, 40 songs by Duke, Basie, the Dorseys, Glenn Miller, Lunceford, Fletcher Henderson, Artie Shaw, Woody Herman, Erskine Hawkins, Charlie Barnet, Muggsy Spanier, Don Redman, Earl Hines, Lucky Millinder, Tiny Bradshaw, Bob Crosby, Chick Webb, Andy Kirk, Luis Russell, etc. It has a beautiful booklet and beautiful graphics. It's put out by Decca Jazz.

I have an anthology of early rock and roll in 3 CDs featuring the Ravens, Sticks McGhee, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, the Delmore Bros., Peppermmint Harris, Jimmy Forrest, early James Brown, early Little Richard, Johnny Ace, Hank Snow, Paul Hucklebuck Williams, Big Joe Turner, Arthur Crudup, Wild Bill Moore, the Orioles, Little Walter, etc. Again, a beautiful booklet that details how these early minority labels came to be.

I have anthologies of western swing, early jazz, even early Brazilian music recorded on cylinders. My question is, if the recording industry doesn't put this stuff out--who will? So if the recording industry dies, a lot will die with it than just stupid, lousy music and bad acts that only dumb teen girls could find palatable.

While I do shop online for CDs, it's not acceptable that this should be the only way. In a CD store I frequent, a guy asked me where the Grover Washington was. He thought I worked there. But I took him over to the Grover Washington bin anyway. We were talking as he thumbed through the CDs when I saw this Dave Young boxed set. Young is a bassist. It was called "The Piano-Bass Duets." It was 4 CDs of Young playing with all sorts of great pianist including Ellis Marsalis, father of Wynton and Branton. The bass sound is so up close that you feel like you're inside the damn thing. Nice booklet too.

I found it by chance. If I hadn't helped this fellow find his Grover Washington, I would have missed it. The problem shopping strictly online is that you generally have to know what you're looking for. The problem is, I often don't. I browse and buy what looks interesting. Again, without a recording industry, where would I get stuff like this?

The idea that as long as there are local performers and Breton fiddle to listen to does not cut it for me. It's not acceptable. I need more than that to keep me happy. The recording industry must not be allowed to die although I doubt any of us can do much to prevent it.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 10:41 AM

Programmes over here in Britian called the x factor or britain's got tatlent or some blood recored producer just wanting money and plenty of it.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Arkie
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

The business end of music can serve a useful purpose in assisting the creative folk in a way to profit from their talent. When the business people began to control the process, take the larger share, and dictate what the public was receiving it contributed to the decline, at least, as far as commercial pop and country is concerned. It did not help when producers and other executives discovered that they could produce trash, call it music, and get it recorded on an album and then collect the same amount of royalties as the 'hit' song for which people bought the album. It seems the more mainstream stations in Arkansas get their music and playlists from some centralized producer so all country stations play the same music, etc.   Have read that record companies can also influence what goes on the playlist. I remember days when stations had their own playlist and if one heard something they liked they could call or write to encourage another station to add the recording to a playlist. The decline in the music industry profits is more complicated but I think the decline in artistry started first. I have not heard a song on radio in over ten years that I wanted to hear again.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 07:01 AM

Who gives a flying fuck for the 'industry'? Not me, for another one!

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: banjoman
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:23 AM

The sooner the "Music Industry" dies the better because that what it is - an industry , there to make money for its bosses. It has nothing to do with the music I like which will always be around so long as there is someone with a voice, a guitar/banjo/squeeze box etc.. Long live live music.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:55 AM

(Oh - and Glueman - apologies for not continuing the other debate on scientists and historians - got sidetracked away on other matters...)

:-)

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:53 AM

There always has been, and always will be, a music 'industry'. The article Josepp quotes is interesting - but I seem to recall my father saying some of those things 50 years ago.

If the 'industry' is dying, then let it die, and three cheers. The music that interests me is the music that has always interested me and which will continue to do so: blues, jazz, ragtime, classical music, traditional tunes, music-hall, township jive, French waltzes and mazurkas, cajun 2-steps, Cape Breton fiiddling, New Orleans second line, 60s Stax stuff, Muscle Shoals, Appalachian stuff.

It's all there - and much more - wonderful music in a host of different disguises! Who gives a flying fuck for the 'industry'? Not me, for one.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: glueman
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:43 AM

The music industry is an irrelevance, it turns out product in the same way as Ford or Walmart. The only people who should be worried are those with an outdated idea of having a 'hit' and getting rich on the back of it, because the business is now so vertically integrated and focused that nobody stands a chance of turning their talents into serious money. Everyone else can get on with real business of singing songs they love for people who like to listen and earning a few quid along the way.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Darowyn
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:38 AM

Music has always been a doubtful source of income for the musician. Bach and Handel needed their titled sponsors.
In popular music, there are always more losers than winners, always more dross then gold. The money there has come from the performer hooking up with an entrepreneur who has invested time and money in the expectation of big returns, of which the muso gets the crumbs from the corporate table. Of course there were still more flops than mega hits.
There are still people trying for the next big thing though, with the Gaga, Beiber, Talent show results that posters here rave about.
The thing that has changed in recent years with the widespread availability of the 'means of production' as Karl Marx has it, is that anyone now wishing to sell their music has to compete with those musicians who give it away free- and survive with those 'consumers' who steal it on a massive scale.
No industry can cope with that.
Music cannot now be an industry. I have always resisted the term anyway. At best it is a small business, creating and operating in niche markets.
For most of us though, it's a hobby, a wonderful, creative, rewarding and frustrating passtime.
Maybe I'm lucky in that I can live with that.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:58 AM

The Beatles got one quarter of a penny for every 45rpm sold. So how did the musos with less clout work out. they got literally nowt. Its never been about making a fortune. We've always been musicians in spite of the music business - not because of it.

The internet with things like Youtube and Mudcat has been all for the good.

We don't even have to cowtow to the BBC to let us have an authorised folk website.


The music business had it coming to them - for its sheer grossness, its ineptitude and for not taking care of its own when they fell upon hard times - few of us inside it feel much gratitude to it, or warmth for it.

I suppose in a way its like the passing of the great movie studio systems. You have to grudgingly admire the Bogarts, The Hitchcocks, the Howard Hawks, the Busby Berkley, The david Selznick - but bloody hell it made a mess of people. And the same can be said for the pre internet music business.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:02 AM

When I was a kid, musicians always got their money because you had to buy a 45 or an LP to hear their music. Then tapes came along, and people could buy the equipment, duplicate the tapes at home and hand them out all around. Then came CD's, then CD copiers. Then came the internet.

The music industry lost its power because it lost control of music media.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 12:37 AM

Josepp, you make some good points, and I trust your expertise in your analysis of the youthful trends in jazz.

I'm just convinced that this 'quality' problem, the focus on looks, youth, etc. is that much different from previous eras. I grew up in the late 50's and early 60's.....with lots of very young singers named Bobby.   And how old was Eddy Hodges when he sang "I'm Gonna Knock on Your Door".?

I do agree. Esperanza Spalding is certainly one of those rare gems!

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 12:07 AM

The record-buying market is 11-14 year old teen girls. That's why Bieber is popular. The problem is that the recording industry has wrapped its entire future around this particular demographic to the near exclusion of anything strictly for monetary reasons. Every time I see some band that's popular among a young female demographic, it's some damned pretty boy band who have nothing going for them except the look. What the hell do we teach girls in this country? Clearly, they are not taught to appreciate music. Their fandom is purely visually based.

And it's that way in all genres now. Country music has for years been a mere visually based medium--every guy a hunk and every gal a doll. It ceased long ago to be anything a person with taste could possibly appreciate. In both jazz and classical, the trend has been to go younger and younger and younger due to this unbelievable over-emphasis of youth this country can't seem to get enough of. The result is that classical musicians burn out at 22 these days. You almost never see a violinist who started recording at 10 still recording at 42. They have burned out long before they reach that age.

In jazz, younger and younger musicians are being pressured into being bandleaders but lack the cred and the music betrays it. They lead bands when they should be learning from a more experienced leader. Esperanza Spalding is an exception. They made her a bandleader at a young age and she's a beautiful young woman (i.e. the right look) but she is also so talented and so well educated in music that she met the challenge but that isn't going to happen the vast majority of the time. So with each passing generation, the music degenerates because the newer generation listens to the older one that started when it was too young to know what it was doing.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 10:50 PM

Hmmm. I guess before we really can answer the question, we have to determine if the music industry really is dying. Guest CS seems to feel it's doing as well as ever. Yet, people I know who work within the industry have been complaining of the mass layoffs that have been going on for the last 10 years. Whether that reflects changes in the 'sharing of the wealth' or a decline of the industry....I'm not sure. My guess is that it's a bit of both and the music industry really isn't doing all that well.

Assuming it is self destructing......I really don't think it has anything to do with quality. Every musical era had a high proportion of crap. And a few gems. I agree with ChordChucker...there really is some great stuff, even profound, and once in awhile, by chance, something that's really good also becomes commercially successful.

The comments about the crap coming out of the music industry I've heard all my life. I don't think anything really changes in that respect.

But I agree with Stringsinger:   ASCAP and BMI have not helped live music...not just in the clubs, but anywhere. And I argue it hasn't helped recorded music either....back to my old point about people being pressured to record their own 2nd rate songs instead of searching for the gems. But it's become too expensive (especially in Canada) for anybody to record somebody else's song that's registered with ASCAP, CAPAC, BMI, etc.   So you get a glut of songs that sound like every other song. And it's overwhelming. So much easier to play computer games or type messages on the mudcat forum then it is to listen to another cd or song someone loaded onto facebook.

And Josepp: Who really knows when Justin Bieber might someday lead to? Nobody can predict the future.

Mr. Bieber certainly isn't my cup of tea (now Lady Gaga....maybe), but it would be fascinating to try understand exactly what it is about him that "speaks" to some people.   And why other seemingly similar phenomena didn't speak so strongly and, hence, nobody's heard of them. (I can't give examples of any of them, because I never heard of them).

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:09 PM

Ok, if Vallee was the Justin Bieber of the 20s and 30s then where's our Louis Armstrong? The truth is, there's no place for him. Back then there was a fledgling jazz that he transformed into swing. What is there to transform today? Nothing.

That's why Santana plays duets with Bieber--he's the only game in town. You want an audience, you have to go through him. How does that shake out 10 years down the road

The indie scene is our only hope and even it has been largely contaminated but it's all we've got.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Chord Chucker
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:26 PM

I am ambivalent about this--I listen to a lot of contemporary pop music, and there is a lot of well written, well performed, and occasionally very profound stuff out there. Given that, there is a lot of derivative, overbearing, and generally annoying stuff out there, but there always has been, and it doesn't make me angry.

My point, I guess, is that, more than ever before, no matter what kind of music you like, you can find lots of of out there.

What bothers me, though, is that the greedy "Music Industry" that Stringsinger mentions above, has way too much power and influence--as he says, they no longer care about music at all--all they are concerned about is collecting fees, and they have more power to do it than we have to stop them.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:27 PM

The main thing killing the industry is reflective of other corporations, greed.
The music merchants no longer are concerned with the quality of the music, whereas,
at one time they were. Not everyone can agree on what the standards for quality music are,
but the motivation for selling music has changed.

ASCAP and BMI have not helped live music in the clubs. Probably the same thing with PRS
in Britain. Back to greed. The publishers and recording companies, not the artists, are seeing the expensive royalties. Remind them next time they complain about copying music.

In spite of the industry, music flourishes on a local basis. It no longer has to be on disc.
Live music is the solution to the problem. Supporting local talent in house concerts,
local radio shows, coffee houses, and small venues will help.

The net support for lesser-known talent is another possible.

Don't buy the music merchant crap. Boycott it.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,ian268
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:21 PM

Crikey, I have just realised that Howell rhymes with Cowell, sorry folks. Who would have thought eh ?

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,ian268
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:11 PM

5 Things that's killing the 'Music Industry' make that 6. If the definition of 'music industry' means the current crop of TV stars and celebrities on offer, I'd love to plunge the knife in now and start again. But I do think its not the Simon Cowells of this world that you should fear.

The people you have to be really careful of is Kim Howells. The pompous ex-miners union leader, got the job of junior culture minister a few years back and decided to stop people from singing in pubs unless the pubs coughed up a substantial licence fee.

I believe it was his lovely piece of legislation that led to one of East Yorkshire' most loved live music venues 'NELLIES' in Beverley to stop singers and players performing altogether. Followers in the Mudcat Cafe should always remember this.

These are the sorts of people who are killing our music. Politicians. They should have far more important issues on their agendas to deal with. And certainly not stamping down on our musical culture.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:47 PM

yes how will we manage without the industry. The industry that told me in rural Lincolnshire in 1963 - there was someone who felt the same way as I did about the Cuban missile crisis. A guy called Pete Seeger writing a song called Where Have all the Flowers Gone? Packaged into the Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,JohninMullion
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:25 PM

The industry may be dying but the music lives. I hear it every week in my local folk club, floor singers and guests. The faces may have changed but the songs and tunes remain and I enjoy them just as much as I did 50 years ago.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM

The Industry seems to be doing as good, if not better, than ever.

But as for me:

Sex? Yes I was talking to the bf other day about how butt ugly many early singers were. Very little chance of that today of course. Now Rihanna gets her kit off in every edition of the Daily Mail, and Lady Gaga's "art" version of same is getting old.

Computers? Mixed feelings. I like progressive music which explores electronic possibilities, but it's sad that butt ugly birds with great voices (and even beautiful birds with great voices) have been sidelined by auto-tuned birds who get their kit off. Not that I've anything against women doing soft porn in itself, I just prefer my genres to stay a tad more clearly defined and for there to be a little less soft porn and a little more music in my music.

Can't remember what the other points were!

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:04 PM

number one on my list would be bad music

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:00 PM

Sorry, that last one was from me.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:59 PM

Aside from the fact that I kind of liked Rod doing those songs.....but back to the main point.

I totally agree with Sandy that the music industry deserves to die. It's probably about time.

But as for what's killing it?

Hell, it's not the Justin Bieber's, Katy Perry's, or even the Millie Vinelli's, and the idolization by teenage girls.

I'm assuming you've all heard of Rudy Vallee.....the Bieber, Perry, Vinelli of the 1920's and 30's.   He certainly didn't kill the industry.

The the talent he displayed was questionable at best. (Abysmal at worst).   And I'm sure there are many other examples.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:53 PM

Nothing wrong with the songs. But Pavarotti's voice wasn't made for those songs and Rod's wasn't. he does what he does well.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:45 PM

The music industry, as it stands today, can't die fast enough! Music will live forever but the industry has degraded to a cesspool!

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:45 PM

I agree with Al that it boils down to units to move. There was a time that a quality artist didn't have to move a lot of units to be highly regarded. Laura Nyro didn't sell a lot of albums but she was highly regarded as a great songwriter and performer.

Today, it is nothing but how many units you can move. It doesn't matter how crappy it is, if it sells then it's highly regarded. That's why someone like Justin Bieber or Katy Perry are regarded as "serious" recording artists. Stupid teenaged girls raised on vapid, pointless crap pop culture are the ones buying this shit and in two years they'll be too embarrassed to admit that they did. But once it sells, it's too late. It brought in money so it's better than whatever doesn't.

Once in a while a Carolina Chocolate Drops or an Esperanza Spalding sneak in and make you hope that perhaps all is not lost. But sometimes I think they just prolong the inevitable.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:31 PM

Can't agree, Al. There have always been charasmatic performers of questionable talent who make money for somebody else as well as themselves. (As well as great artists who enhanced the status of their benefactors).

Today we have Simon Cowell. Yesterday we had the Gong Show.

And the quality of the songs that Rod Stewart has recently song is far better than the quality of the songs that most of the singers who are pressured to put out their own second rate material have sung. (Even if it's debatable as to how well he sings them).

I think there are just too many songs that don't really need to be heard outside of somebody's basement....and people are being overwhelmed. And it's burying the rare 'great' stuff.

True, some of this has probably come about because of this 'growth industry'....there's more money in collecting song royalties as well as sales of the recording (whatever media is used)

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:25 PM

I don't know if the author was kidding when she wrote that "musical snobs" would likely agree that going independent is the best route. I don't know why you're a musical snob if you do this. In many cases, what options do you have other than going indie? Most of the time, big labels don't want to hear you no matter how talented you are unless you have, as she points out, the right look and crappy music to match.

I think the Milli Vanilli debacle proved just how underhanded the recording industry is and yet MV fans took it out on the guys who posed as the act rather than the labels who cooked up the whole thing in the first place. It was shit music to begin with so I don't have any sympathy for the fans who felt they were duped. They duped themselves just by buying that mass media marketed crap in the first place and it justifies my feeling that way about it. It's garbage.

The recording industry has always been a watering hole for shysters and cheats--most of whom are masquerading behind law degrees. All they've done is achieve their dream of a reducing the industry to nothing but money and art be damned. I mean, there's still good acts and there are still good labels trying to do the right thing but the mainstream has gotten very wide, very boring, very unoriginal, very formulaic and it's jealously guarded by crooked lawyers and execs who only want your money and are fully prepared to give you nothing in return.

What's scary is that a lot of people--young and old--have gotten used to it and are happy with getting nothing in return. They have no good ol' days of music to remember or have forgotten it and think this is an acceptable situation and see nothing wrong with it. These are the people that the industry wants to sell to and gears everything around.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:11 PM

Whats done more to kill it has been the perception of it as an industry......units to shift, etc.

I think it was always - even from the days of Mozart and Haydn - a business. I think the musicians and composers were small businessmen.

I think the Beatles changed everything. Fortunes of millions - not necessarily going to the artists. The public schoolboys began to see it as a growth industry. Create a charismatic performer and you can sell mediocre product - just like packaging biscuits - and you can sell by the millions of truckloads globally.

the trouble is - you can fool all the people some of the time. But after a while it becomes obvious that Rod Stewart singing the telephone directory, Pete Waterman, and Simon Cowell have smeared the surface of the world with shite pretty much - well I defy anyone to argue with the fact that its not the standard of quality that Beatles and Sinatra people from the days of small businessmen worked to.

The real sad thing has been seeing the folk world aping the antics of the pop world. Searching for the next big thing - that was a bit like last years next big thing.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Guest: Michael William Harrison
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:40 PM

Larry Saidman - me thinks you hit the nail on the head here. Yes, I don't care if the singer wrote the song or not; what difference does it make? Also, I've said for years that it is a sad world that shuttles songs into landfills because the writer and/or singer has died - wouldn't trad music/songs eventually die off with that attitude? What would happen to the songs of Harry Chapin or Stan Rogers, or Townes VanZandt? Case in point, I never heard Townes sing "Poncho & Lefty," but I'll be damned if he could take it to my heart the way Emmylou has done - no way he could. Nanci Griffit didn't write "Roseville Fair," but is there a better version out there? Has anyone done "Ballad Of St. Anne's Reel" better than Dave Mallett? Yes - several Celtic performers have, and do. Jus' sayin'.

Subject: RE: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:27 PM

I think the biggest thing killing it is the glut of songs being written, with every Tom, Dick, and Harriet wanting to record being pressured to have "original material"---99% of which is really bad because they aren't songwriters. The art of songwriting is dying, because songwriters aren't recognized unless they are also performers.

When a great song is written, it's ignored by everybody except the writer, because there's no benefit in doing somebody else's song (with a few rare exceptions). I think that copyright laws may have something to do with it. Combined with that distorted value called "original material".

The music industry could be revived by any encouragement to look for great songs.........many of them obscure that are fermenting in the many song landfills of the world.

Recycling is the answer. Wouldn't it be great if a few groups of "song recyclers" came into being?

Subject: 5 Things Killing the Music Industry
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:49 PM

5 Things Killing the Music Industry

What do you think?