Public Liability Insurance (Again!)

Subject: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: matt milton
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:07 AM

One thing I don't understand - be grateful if anyone could clarify.

I am putting on a concert and a stipulation of the hire is that I have PLI "as a promoter", not "as a musician". Apparently the former not covered by EFDSS membership: it only covers you "as a musician" for any accidents that might be incurred by audience members.

In practice, I don't understand this distinction.

Largely because I intend to be playing at the event. In fact I don't even intend to be "promoting" it much - it's just me playing and some musician friends. The audience will be largely our mates and families.

So aren't I a musician in this instance? When does a musician become a "promoter" for PLI purposes? The second there is an audience?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 01:43 PM

Who are you hiring the room off? If they do not have PLI Event organisers insuranmce for all the people coming in, then you need it. That is the premises responsibility normally and I would be surprised if they don't have that. I think it would cost you around £65
You need the musiscians side to cover yourself whilst playing incase you injure somebody.
The Village Hall who I hire from, has it's own PLI, so I don't have to do it. It is included in the cost of hiring the hall.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:28 PM

"Promoter" and "musician" are different roles, with different responsibilities and carrying different risks. I suspect that is why the insurers differentiate. The fact that the same person may carry out both roles doesn't alter the fact.

Have you checked with EFDSS that their insurance doesn't cover you for promoting your own events (as opposed acting solely as a promoter booking other people)? It must be a fairly common occurence.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: matt milton
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 10:41 AM

well I'm being told all this by a guy from Cecil Sharp House, because it's the Cecil Sharp House bar that I was interested in hiring.

So, as CSH is run by the EFDSS, I would presume that he knows what their own insurance policy covers, and what is in place for the building.

It seems very weird that EFDSS would offer "Public Liability Insurance" as part of membership, yet not of a kind that would allow an EFDSS member to put on an event at EFDSS headquarters! So unlikely that a part of me wonders if they fully understand their own insurance policy...

(After all, the CSH barman would be there, and if PLI is as crucial as they suggest, I presume he has some kind of insurance - y'know, in case anyone chokes on the beer he's pulled. There'd also be whoever it is that mans the front desk by the doors - they'd also be a CSH member who would presumably be against, I dunno, letting too many people in)

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 06:49 AM

IF you are a Musicians Union or Equity member , ask their legal people ! Free advice is part of the membership deal .

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 07:01 AM

I couldn't easily lay my hands on my EFDSS PLI documents so I googled and came across a dccument "English Folk Dance & Song Society's Public Liability Insurance, Basic principles for Members and Affiliated Groups". Strangely, I couldn't find this on EFDSS's own website and they don't seem to have done much to draw it to members' attention, but you can find it here:

Leicestershire and Rutland Folk

It makes a clear distinction between individual cover (which covers only that person's activities, and not any events which he/she may organise because that inevitably involves other people), and group membership which covers only the group's activities and not those of individual members.

As an organiser of Poynton Ceilidhs we have group membership which covers the ceilidhs, but if I and the other organisers perform there as musicians we are not covered and need separate PLI (which our band has).

I suspect this would apply to most PLI policies, unless you had made it clear that you wanted cover both as a performer and as a promoter, in which case it would be reflected in the premium. As I said in my previous post, they are different roles and each require their own PLI.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:11 AM

Thanks, that's really helpful. Good detective work! I won't be hiring the CSH bar then. Shame.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 04:06 AM

Don't be fooled into thinking that insurance is for the benefit of someone who might be injured by your activities.
It is to stop you being bankrupted by a claim, through not being able to afford a lawyer to say that it wasn't your fault.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:11 AM

Mo is right. Just because you don't have PLI doesn't mean you can't be held liable, and just because a venue doesn't ask for evidence that you hold PLI doesn't mean that you don't need it.

To be clear, you owe a duty of care to anyone who can reasonably be expected to be affected by your actions. If you're negligent, you can be sued, and the PLI is there to pay out so you don't lose your house. The reason a venue might want to check you have PLI is in case your negligence affects them - they want to know that if they have to sue you then you're good for the money.

It's up to you to take a view of the risks and decide whether to chance it or take out insurance.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 05:46 AM

"It's up to you to take a view of the risks and decide whether to chance it or take out insurance"

Exactly, which is why I think it's a shame that an atmospheric, convivial, conveniently-located venue should take it upon themselves to nannyishly make that decision for me. Rather like an airline insisting I buy life insurance before taking a flight.

Mind you, this is now a conversation we've already had. Thanks for clarifying, via that link.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 08:35 AM

Thanks to all in this thread, for reminding me that our ceilidh band PLI has expired :)

I was going to renew with Musicians Insurance of Matlock (don't know what happened to my renewal notice but there ya go) unless anyone can point me to another source.

I looked at getting the band membership of EFDSS for the benefit of their PLI cover (because I realise that my membership only covers me for my own activities, not the whole band), but I read the document linked above as saying that it only covers events that the band has organised (as opposed to ones we get booked by someone else to play at).

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 08:57 AM

Steve, I think if an organisation (whether a band or a dance club) takes affiliate membership then it is covered for its own activities. So for a band that would cover playing as a band but not organising ceilidhs, whereas for a dance club it would cover organising dances but not committee members playing as a band. However that's just my own interpretation, best check with EFDSS.

And in reply to Matt's last post, EDFSS aren't being nannyish in asking for evidence of PLI, it's to protect themselves - in case there's a claim against them for which the promoter might be partly responsible, or a claim by them against the promoter, they want to know that he has sufficient financial resources, and isn't what lawyers call a "man of straw".

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:14 AM

Cheers Howard - I will clarify with EFDSS, because I would like to go down that route if possible.

More and more halls and venues are insisting on bands and event organisers providing their own PLI - I've known bookers not confirm until they've seen a copy of our PLI certificate, which is why I'm keen to get this sorted. It is a pain, but it's a symptom of the compensation culture that the ambulance chasers have helped create, and I certainly don't blame C#H for going down that route to limit their own liability.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 11:05 AM

"And in reply to Matt's last post, EDFSS aren't being nannyish in asking for evidence of PLI, it's to protect themselves - in case there's a claim against them for which the promoter might be partly responsible, or a claim by them against the promoter, they want to know that he has sufficient financial resources, and isn't what lawyers call a "man of straw".

That's not exactly reassuring!

It suggests to me that, on the million-to-one, once-in-a-lifetime scenario that something did indeed go wrong, and that someone was indeed seriously injured, the venue would be doing their damnedest to make sure it was the promoter's insurance that paid for it, not theirs.

All academic anyway. I'll go for either the Wilmington Arms (£100 all inc, with soundman) or the Constitution basement (all-acoustic, £50) instead.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:27 AM

"It suggests to me that, on the million-to-one, once-in-a-lifetime scenario that something did indeed go wrong, and that someone was indeed seriously injured, the venue would be doing their damnedest to make sure it was the promoter's insurance that paid for it, not theirs."

Of course they would - and similarly, the promoter would try to push the liability onto the venue. The important part of that statement is that it is the promoter's insurance which would pick up the tab, rather than the promoter himself - who probably doesn't have the money.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: matt milton
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:57 AM

It's been an interesting search - I've come across some really good, cheap and free performance spaces in London. If anyone is ever struggling to find anything similar for an event, send me a PM, and I'll give some pointers.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 09:07 AM

Amid all the push around of liability, the insurers would be trying to say that the claimant hadn't proved that their client was not to blame (hence they tell you to say nothing if an incident happens - in case a 'sorry' was taken as 'sorry that it was my fault' not 'sorry you are hurt').

No guarentee anyone will get compensation.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 09:09 AM

Not that anyone wants to be injured and get compensation.
What they want is for you to take reasonable action to avoid injury.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 09:51 AM

Unless British insurance companies are different than those we have in North America, what they want is your money, no risk and that's all. They have more fine print than a hundred issues of The New York Times.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Sarah Davison
Date: 03 May 12 - 11:16 AM

I struggled for a long time trying to find some cover that would actually cover me for what I wanted and the only ones I could find were http://www.publicliabilityinsurance.org.uk/ but you have to pay for the cover that you want.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (Again!)
From: GUEST,Public Liability Insurance
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:11 PM

When you are about to choose the Public Liability insurance policy for yourself, then you have to ask a few questions to your own self.

How much money you are in need to borrow?

What amount you would be able to afford to pay each month?

For how long you would like to use the borrowed money?

What would be the amount of interest rate that you afford to pay?

Once you have asked all these questions, then you will come to know that which type of Public Liability insurance plan would meet your requirements.