Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig

Subject: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 06:25 PM

Sunjay Brain - the teenage senation acoustic folk blues guitarist playing stuff the old guys can only dream about playing at the portsmoth Hoy, Poole Quay tomorrow May 1st.(deprived and cheated of the greatest folk musician living title, only by the shady machinations of the traddie branch of al quaeda!)

Come and see the legend! before the world awakes to it!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 01 May 12 - 08:42 AM

Big Al, you need to get out more, try Chris Smithers, Leo Kottke, not to mention Tim O'Brien, Steve Hicks, and many many more.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 12 - 08:53 AM

Last month at Bristol - Chris Smithers specially invited Sunjay to be his support act. For a laugh Sunjay played three Chris Smithers numbers for his sound check. Chris's roadie went to get Chris, saying - you've got to hear this.....this kid does your stuff better than you.

I'm not saying at only just eighteen Sunjay is as good as Chris Smithers. But he's pretty damn good. Also he's clued up - he had a gig near Hemel - so he went to visit the now retired Derek Brimstone. He went and played for Derek.

Its not what some people would accept as tradition - but theres something of that nature going on

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 01 May 12 - 12:35 PM

Big Al, I'm not saying he isn't any good, I'm merely saying in the overall scheme of things he has a very very long way to go. He needs a style of his own, just copying Chris Smithers all the time, puts him in danger of being classed as a tribute act. Heres a few more names to think about, Chris Proctor, Brooks Williams, Stephen Grossman, and if you want to talk world class Tommy Emmanual.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 May 12 - 07:59 AM

Have you seen Sunjay lately. Several of the people on your list would have trouble following him on stage right now.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 12 - 02:17 PM

Hear hear, Al. I saw Sunjay perform last night (followed him onstage, as it happens, although not directly) and, speaking as paid-up Traddy Al-Qaida, I thought he was bloody good!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 May 12 - 02:55 PM

'Guest' was me.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 12 - 06:11 PM

little bugger blew me offstage the other night at Seaton.....not that I resent it! (ho hum!)

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 12 - 06:54 PM

Sunjay just phoned. He's won the Wath Festival Young Performer of the year. He's walking on air. The cup presented by John Tams.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 May 12 - 03:52 PM

Congratulation Sunjay!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brain in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 08 May 12 - 12:22 PM

There is an argument that one cannot sing bluesy songs without an american accent, or an Irish song without an Irish accent, good on the guitar but he needs to find his own voice

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 08 May 12 - 05:47 PM

Absolutely spot on Stallion, and if you wanted to be really critical most of his guitar playing has been stolen or copied from Chris Smithers. The vast majority of Traddies have probably never heard Chris Smithers, which is why Sunjay gets away with it. So Traddies check out the following if you want proper fingerstyle blues guitar; Kirk Lorange, Bob Brozman, Seasick Steve, Woody Mann, Roy Bookbinder, Kent Duchane, not to mention an acoustic Eric Clapton.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:36 PM

'Sunjay gets away with it.......'


words fail me. So typical mudcat. The utter negativity towards a boy scarcely 18 years.....

The real comparison is listening to 2o year old Eric Clapton fumbling his way through his firsttentative grasp of the pentatonic scale in the the Yardbirds albums. And frankly the mature Eric Clapton for the first three acoustic albums would scarcely have raised a flicker of interest - as one acoustic player I know said - take that down the folk club and the reaction would be ....so what!

I've seen Chris Smither. Woody Mann and I've heard Roy Bookbinder.

You have not a CLUE what you are talking about. I watched Sunjay play Seaton FC last week. Paul Downes, who was sitting next to me in the audience, looked at the queues that were surrounding Sunjay in the interval and said - I have never seen anything approaching that....

What makes Sunjay unique is that he is following a tradition. Not 'the tradtion - but a tradtion. The coffee bar cowboys - so despised by 'the traddies'. His style is defined not only by Chris Smither - but derek Brimstone, Gerry Lockran, Roger Brooks, Grossman (and with him comes all the major American black blues artists), Jack Hudson and I suppose myself.

Anyway are any of the people on your list doing free gigs in pubs or working at the bottom of the bill in festivals?

Getting away with it...you have no idea what it takes to become a Sunjay Brayne.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 09 May 12 - 03:58 AM

C'mon Al, that was sound advice, I was hardly rubishing him, It is a truism that one has to see a performance and one cannot judge peoples ability on snippets, thats why it's hard to book acts from hearing cd's cos some people take weeks and months, even years producing a cd and others take a few hours and what you hear is not always what you get. The lad has ability on the guitar but I know very little about guitars, I do know that the voice I heard grated on me because my pet hate is that false american , sometimes called, mid atlantic accent, my granddaughters do it all the time and it annoys the hell out of me. Can't comment on his songwriting ability cos I haven't heard enough. What Sunjay has is a developing talent and it will grow with experience and he will find his own way, and yes he is doing the rounds required to establish oneself and earn a reputation which will be a platform for a successful career, and Al you are quite right in flagging this guy up, definitely one to catch up with. Al, take the comment I made in a positive way and encourage the lad to find himself and then watch him shine.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 09 May 12 - 04:01 AM

Having said all that you should hear us singing "West Indies Blues" in estuary english, it works, just!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 09 May 12 - 04:33 AM

I rarely post these days.

I was one of the judges. He was outstanding.

On his CD 11 tracks - 3 Chris Smithers; one CS/Steve Tilston; 2 Roger Brooks; 1 Knopfler; 1 Dylan; 1 Tilston; 1 Tom Hoy; 1 Blind Willie Mc Tell.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 09 May 12 - 04:53 AM

praise indeed

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 May 12 - 05:00 AM

Astonishing negativity. Of course Sunjay will develop, no one was saying he's the finished article, merely very good. As one of those 'traddies' that Al insists on rubbishing (even though two of us are batting for him on this thread!) I'd probably be better at spotting a Carthy clone than a Smither one, but I do listen to blues and I judged Sunjay Brayne on grounds of musical quality and enjoyability. Since when was Seasick Steve the benchmark for "proper fingerstyle blues guitar", anyway?

As to the accent, every UK blues singer has struggled with this. Would Sunjay be more 'authentic' if he tried to sound like Howlin' Wolf? Give him a chance, chaps.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 12 - 05:01 AM

Well yes the Statesboro Blues is very Chris Smithers as well. Yes he's a big influence.

But Roger Brooks, Tom Hoy (of Magna Carta) Steve Tiston, Derek Brimstone, Bert Jannsch ........these are the mainstays of the live act. This isn't your typical mid atlantic lisping twit that you get on Britains got an X Factor.

This is someone who has taken seriously the music coming from the English folk clubs and lent his considerable talents to that tradition. Its not the tradition that Martin Carthy recognises as such. Its the one that I gave my life to. The godfather i suppose is Josh White - who took old traddy songs and turned them into something live and sexy.

I can't tell you how upsetting Sunjay finds all this snotty sniping. he's a delicate kid and doesn't enjoy the best of health. I tried to explain to him last time some idiot had a smack at him on Mudcat (he was 17 at the time and some idiot said English folk music is in real trouble if this is the future...).When you're a performer, its open season on you - anyone can say anything. I tried to tell him that if you do this seriously - you need to have the hide of a rhinoceros. Nick Drake is great music, but its not a great career plan. On one occasion had to walk away from Mudcat.

Is it really necessary for the traddies to impose their doctrinaire view of the universe with such a heavy hand?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 May 12 - 05:16 AM

Al, I think we cross-posted. Seems to be a bluesman sticking the boot into SB here, and at least two 'traddies' sticking up for him. Bugger 'doctrinaire'.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:01 AM

As you know Brian - I love and honour the work that guys like you and Carthy do, and the late Tony Rose. Ewan MacColl and many others.

I just think the English folk club phenomenon. artistic movement - call it what you will, contains so many other elements - all sort of valid. If validity is possible to determine.

I always love that conversation the narrator in Cakes and Ale has with Alroy Kear, the society novelist - some unspecified time in the 1920's - 'You can't think how secure Meredith and Pater looked in their reputations forty years ago....'

Who knows what future generations will think of us as artists? One generation sees Renoir as 'cutting edge' hardly respectable - the next sees him as chocolate box stuff.

I have so much respect for you as a musician, Brian. For your hard work and talent and vision.

However you are talking to a man who has been whinged at for nearly forty years for singing in a mid atlantic accent. Sorry if I seem prickly!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 09 May 12 - 08:08 AM

There is no hope for you Al, may as well put the tradelle patches away! My favourite band of all time was Free, loved it then love it now. Oh and dunno where the thought that I was a traddie came from, we were rejected by the die hards long ago!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 09 May 12 - 08:58 AM

nobody is ever the finished article. that's when you retire.

it also seems bizarre to diss Sunjay Brayne for a "mid atlantic accent", when the clips I've just watched on YouTube reveal someone singing largely in a (rather middle class) english accent, vaguely reminiscent of Nick Drake's.

Yes, some bits of an American accent on some lines, but really... not as much as any number of respected esteemed UK bluesmen and women of yore... eg Duster Bennett, JoAnn Kelly, Dave Kelly, Gordon Smith, Christine Perfect et al.

The only British singers I can think of off the top of my head who sang/sing in an entirely non-American accent are Ian Anderson and the Boycott Coca Cola Experience. (And maybe the Flying Lizards on their cover of "Money")

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:11 AM

'The only British singers I can think of off the top of my head who sang/sing in an entirely non-American accent are Ian Anderson and the Boycott Coca Cola Experience. (And maybe the Flying Lizards on their cover of "Money") '

well there was George Formby - who was singing mainly jazz tunes. Noel Coward. Ian Dury....

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:12 AM

the only thing I would say - and this is in no way a criticism of Sunjay Brayne, whose YouTube clips I've just enjoyed listening to, is that I do think it's a shame that the UK folk club circuit does seem to only pay attention to people who plug into it... it's not very good at actually looking around and keeping its ear to the ground.

meaning that both Sunjay Brayne and Blair Dunlop have received a fair amount of "folk club" press recently.

Whereas I've never seen any mention on Mudcat of other young fingerpickers such as: Michael Rossiter, David Broad, Serious Sam Barrett, Flake Brown, Pepe Belmonte, Jack Day, George Frakes, or Nygel's young Folk Police discoveries Ewan D Rodgers and Jack Blackman. Despite the fact that several of them have been gigging around the UK and recording albums for a good few years now.

Even Jason Steel, who has had a fair few releases now, doesn't seem to ever get mentioned beyond the occasional fRoots review. Don't recall ever having seen a mudcat post concerning him.

There's a whole world of young fingerpickers in the UK right now doing interesting things in a blues/Fahey/Jansch/Basho/Wizz Jones/M John Hurt type of tradition. Sure, they might not play the established traddie folkclub circuit, but they play a lot of gigs nonetheless and, y'know, we do have this thing called the internet... I think too many folkies (in the UK at least) rely too much on that circuit to hear about new musicians, and I think they miss out. That's certainly the impression I get whenever I listen to Mike Harding at least.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:17 AM

"well there was George Formby - who was singing mainly jazz tunes. Noel Coward. Ian Dury...."

well there you go. Nick Drake's "Family Tree" album features his early home recordings, on which he's singing many blues standards in his own middle-class accent.

I'd personally rather hear that than a put-on American accent.

But it's not such a huge sticking point for me that I can't enjoy, say, JoAnn Kelly's singing on her fantastic first album (which is entirely American-accented).

What I'm saying is, of all the British singers currently singing blues, Sunjay Brayne seems like a very poor target to pick in terms of "singing in an American accent". By and large, he doesn't! The occasional line maybe. Whereas up and down the country, you'll find billions of blues bands who do.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:19 AM

I don't think Noel Coward or Ian Dury ever sang BLUES specifically though, did they?!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Sunjay Brayne
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:27 AM

Right! *Rolls up sleeves*
Firstly to Big Al, Brian & Kitty thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. -Although Al "traddy al quaeda"? Come on, I must admit that when I started out (A mere 9 months ago), I didn't much like traditional music, however time has changed me and I have grown musically, and I can now appreciate all forms of music (traditional included). Being at college has helped me greatly with that. A lesson perhaps that many people should learn on here? Respect for music and musical talent is of the most important things to me. Sure it might not be your thing (Traditional, Contemporary, Blues, or otherwise), but I think people need to stop thinking that their opinions are more important than the HOURS of work/practise that artists such as myself do.

Secondly, to Gibsonboy - for you to have the tenacity to say that I "just copy Chris Smither all the time" shows how little you really know. You Sir are the one who needs to get out more, specifically to one of my gigs, and you will see what a load of rubbish you talk! Yes I do a handful of Chris SMITHER (Not Smithers you ignoramus, a common misconception by people who don't know him and don't know his music... I also do a handful of Roger Brooks songs - no doubt if you knew Roger you'd call me a Roger Brooks tribute act? Well...?

"most of his guitar playing has been stolen or copied from Chris Smither"

Again what I load of rubbish, what that really means is "I went on youtube, clicked on the first link I saw, and saw Sunjay doing Love You Like A Man, and never bothered to check out the other 1h 27mins of his set." Most of my playing is "stolen"? Yeah me and every other guitar player in the world! May I remind you of a certain Bob Dylan who for several years when he first started performing, was doing ONLY a mix of old Blues songs & Woodie Guthrie.
Again you obviously haven't researched me, because if you had, you would know that I am currently working on a new CD project which will have mainly my on material on. (With a few covers just to keep you happy!)

Thirdly, Stallion - I'm sorry that my voice "grated" on you. I would like to quash this rumor that I sing in an American accent, a British accent or anything else. - At the Wath Young Performers Competition I was praised by all three judges for singing in my own accent, whilst encompassing an American flavor. May I add that the way i sing is not "put on" or anything like that, and if I do sound American to you then it hardly matters to me, seeing as I am in fact a quarter American.
My paternal grandfather's family were pre-Mayflower Americans FYI.
So if there is a touch of American in there, great! I'm also half Indian. If i sang in an Indian accent would you say the same? I hope not.
Thank you for not "rubbishing" me though, however back-handed compliments are always the worst...

Sunjay

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Sunjay Brayne
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:29 AM

Thank you also to Matt, (who posted while I was writing).

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 09 May 12 - 11:28 AM

Its not the tradition that Martin Carthy recognises as such.

Judging from his recorded repertoire Martin Carthy listens to a much wider range of material than you give him credit for I suspect. And he bought his first guitar to learn to play like Lonnie Donegan. And talks lovingly about the first song he learnt - Heartbreak Hotel.

I doubt there is little that people on here can teach Sunjay who seems to be learning very quickly as he is.

Except perhaps to avoid Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 May 12 - 11:38 AM

Martin C. claims to have been influenced by Elizabeth Cotten if I remember rightly.

And what about Shirley Collins & Davy Graham....?

Sunjay: don't rise to it, just let your music do the talking.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 09 May 12 - 12:31 PM

Firstly, Sunjay it wasn't your voice that grated at me it was my granddaughters in whom it is very pronounce and drives me mad you just got tarred with that brush (a la "high street musical"), Secondly, I said that I hadn't heard enough to pass a valued judgement and then commended you for plying your trade and working at it, I may not have said, but implied that you would develop your career and be a success because you undoubtably have talent.
Thirdly, I thanked Al for giving us the heads up, I think you would easily get a gig at the Black Swan Folk Club in York, give Roland a call.
Please do not lose sight of the fact the people will pay good money to come and see you, treat them well. Don't make the assumption that all criticism is negative carping nor should you take it personally, there are some mean spirited people about but generally speaking people in this place try to help

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 12 - 01:40 PM

so who knows.....will he 'get away with it'?

Watch this space......

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 12 - 01:40 PM

lol

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:51 PM

high school musical!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 10 May 12 - 02:26 AM

Oh, and one more observation in general, people that pack them in are not always the best technicians it will drive you mad at times!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:49 AM

One of the unconscious paths of any developing musician is the trajectory of learning from, and copying role models to acquiring one's own voice. If we've any aspirations whatsoever, we all start with being inspired by others. As time passes, the influences sink in and the varied experiences of playing mold us into something other than what we started off as. How long that process takes and where it takes us is something that we can't predict.

I've never seen or heard Sunjay, so I can't comment on where he is on that trajectory, but it seems a mite hard to get picky with someone who, it appears, has great talent at a young age (17, do I hear?). I first picked up a guitar at the great age of 20 - that was 48 years ago - and I was obsessed with the playing of a number of people, from Hank Marvin to Lonnie Donegan to Davy Graham to Brownie McGhee to Leadbelly to Django Reinhardt to Eddie Lang and many, many others. I still enjoy the music of these people but I can't say, after all these years, that I play like any of them.

I just do my own thing and hope it comes out as me, and I'm sure Sunjay will do the same - if he isn't doing it already...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 12 - 05:58 AM

@Will - I get the impression he is - and I believe he is 18.

Shixty eight? Shome mistake shurely? :-)

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 May 12 - 06:45 AM

Sunjay is really good at what he does and I'm sure the longer he does it the better he'll get.

I think it's a bit disingeneous, Al, to set up this fake scenario pitting one 18 year old against the whole of traditional folk. There are loads of 'young people' playing folk music of one sort or another other than straight English/Scottish/Irish trad (including finger picking guitarists). Some of them are brilliant. It's just that they don't play at folk clubs. And why should they? They won't usually find their peers there, just their grandad's peers :-)

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 12 - 07:07 AM

I just took exception (strong exception) to the idea that someone who had obviously put in hours and hours and hours of practice and was playing not merely from the traditional cannon was somehow -'getting getting away with it'.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 10 May 12 - 11:28 AM

Big Al, When I hear people using language like "teenage sensation", "playing old guys can only dream about", "deprived and cheated of the being the greatest folk muscian", etc when the reality is that he is just an average picker, (and if he's honest he would agree with that), grates with me a bit.

Sunjay, I have been watching Folk Blues guitarists for over forty years, not only in the UK, but in its own back yard the USA, and in that time I have gathered a pretty good understanding of what Folk Blues Fingerpicking can be, so I'll take no lectures from you.

I will wait with interest to hear your new CD, hopefully it will define what you are, and help you evolve as a player and performer.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 May 12 - 12:24 PM

Want to learn guitar? Start here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZDjWLwqAPY

If only more folkies would play like this there might be a future in it...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 12 - 12:35 PM

'he is just an average picker'

Gibsonboy - whoever you are - you are utterly beneath contempt. I would like to summon up pity for you.....

Nothing average about Sunjay. I've taught guitar for years - he's probably the ablest guy I have taught. And I would place him in ability alongside my other star pupil - Donald Ross Skinner.

Of course what really pisses you off is that he has vision - he's not prepared to accept folk music as being the stuff handed down on tablets of stone by the great and the good.


he knows what has excited his passion and he communicates thatvery well to every audience.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 10 May 12 - 02:47 PM

So he is or was one of your pupils eh, that explains all of the extravagant language. At least Sunjay can tap his foot in time.
PS thanks for the pity but I really don't need it.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:03 PM

Not really one of my pupils. I taught his Dasd to play guitar - we became friends, And Sunjay turned up at odd times for a few tips.

I hadn't seen Sunjay for about a year, and we did this gig together last week at seaton. I wasn't sure what to expect . I knew he could play - but it was a revelation.

There were only about forty in the audience. At the interval there was a queue across the room of people who probably wanted to say they's spoken to this guy before he was a star - he sold 17 cds. The performers award at Wath(where I'm told he took the roof off) was the third major award. Offers are flooding in from the biggest record distribution company to various management companies.

Only someone who'd never seen him perform a full set would agree with you.

I'm not being extravagant in my language - just describing whats before my eyes and ears. steve Hicks and I are old old friends dating back to the early 70's. I knew Steve when he wasn't much older than Sunjay and really - had none of Sunjay's tecnique at that stage - and (god love him) I really wish that Steve had what Sanjay has with audiences.

Take it from me Gibsonchild: at best you are being jealous, at worst horridly malicious.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Jeri
Date: 10 May 12 - 03:10 PM

There's a tendency by some unexceptional people to resent those who break away from the pack. Realize you can't win everyone over and accept that they attack you because you're so much better than   others. They're usually pretty obvious because they try too damned hard. It's a little bit of a compliment to your own skill that it sets them off so.

Real talent recognizes real talent, and those guys see it in you. Those who can't, or won't, acknowledge it, whether they perform or just listen, are punished by their own outlook on life.

I enjoyed your playing on YouTube very much.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,JOHNCHARLES
Date: 11 May 12 - 04:59 AM

Just listened to Sunjay on youtube. Sounds good, but whatever it is that he is tapping his foot on is a real pain.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 12 - 05:56 AM

yeh I've got my reservations about the manic toe tapping....still he's got further career wise in five minutes than I have in forty years - so advice from me is like navigation tips from the captain of the Titanic.

Thanks for the nice things yousaid Jeri. I know I'm no great shakes as a musician or Sonwriter - what did Nick Drake say - Time has told me! Still as you say, I do recognise talent.

Martin carthy being a good case in point. I love his guitar playing. Such a divergent thinker! And yes I DID know that he'd recorded heartbreak Hotel and Gilbert O'Sullivans Alone Again naturally. Yeh he's all street cred is Martin...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 11 May 12 - 06:15 AM

"! And yes I DID know that he'd recorded heartbreak Hotel and Gilbert O'Sullivans Alone Again naturally. Yeh he's all street cred is Martin..."

Actually, I kind of think that playing the occasional cheesy cover entirely straight is almost a folk tradition.

When you listen to Mance Lipscomb or Leadbelly, they just played whatever caught their ear off the radio. I really like Mance's "Shine on Harvest Moon" for instance...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 May 12 - 06:27 AM

Wasn't it 'O Sullivan's Nothing Rhymed that Carthy did? Maybe he did them both. Anyway - it was ghastly in any context but on the otherwise flawless Because it's There it was perverse in the extreme. That was 1979, same year as Unknown Pleasures and Live at the Witch Trials; were it not for Nothing Rhymed BIT would fit right in there, if only for The Death of Young Andrew. That's the revival for you - forever cementing its allegiances to MOR pop-schlock by way of 'reaching out'. I have my doubts...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 12 - 06:55 AM

Wasn't it 'O Sullivan's Nothing Rhymed that Carthy did?

I stand corrected - as always.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 11 May 12 - 07:08 AM

"That's the revival for you - forever cementing its allegiances to MOR pop-schlock by way of 'reaching out'. I have my doubts..."

hmmm, i was thinking more of, well, the covers i mention... the teasing out of a hidden poignancy in a pop song that you wouldn't have given a second thought to otherwise. Maybe the radio songs of the 30s had to be a bit more lyrical than Gilbert O'Sullivan...

You know, I don't think I've ever heard a Gilbert O'Sullivan song. Sounds like I should count myself lucky. Though I'm aware that there's a Biz Markie track that samples him, and I'm a big fan of the Biz, so I guess I've heard some of O'Sullivan's artistry by the osmosis of old-school hip-hop.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 May 12 - 07:11 AM

You President of his fan club then Al ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 12 - 07:42 AM

No I'm not really aware of what Gilbert's up to these days. i was never a what you'd call a fan. Tobe honest, I hated him - particularly after that Clare record.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 May 12 - 11:05 AM

No I meant Sunjay.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 May 12 - 11:08 AM

the teasing out of a hidden poignancy in a pop song that you wouldn't have given a second thought to otherwise

This is the sort thing Jim Eldon does as a matter of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2u1SMdJ9a8

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 12 - 11:41 AM

No not really. I feel very defensive about him though. Currently he's doing the definitive Roger Brooks songs - at least as good as Roger did them in his prime. I'd hate to see Sunjay's talent be sidelined like Roger's was.

Roger was to me, the best songwriter of our generation. I had thought his work would be lost for ever - Roger wasn't terribly interested in the recording process. like a lot of that generation.

Listen to Sunjay singing Wild Bird Flying through a Cold dark Night - the love song Roger wrote for Nikki Haan, when they were both young lovers in Paris. Tears my heart out every time.

Nikki sings some of roger's songs too. She runs an open mic. session on the quay in Poole at the Portsmouth Hoy, every Wednesday.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 12 - 08:39 PM

Review of the Seaton gig

First, it was an extraordinary night at Jurassic Folk at the Grove, Seaton, on May 2nd, with two major and highly contrasting performers entertaining a highly appreciative crowd. Starting off there was Big Al Whittle, who is big in every sense, with his individual and uproariously funny songs, such as "Buster, the Line Dancing Dog". One listener wrote afterwards " ..my first really good laugh in a while, Al. Thank you very much.." Big Al is a seasoned entertainer and is probably three times the age of the main guest of the evening, Sunjay Brayne, who's tender age of just 18 belies the maturity of his guitar playing and singing. His genre may largely fall within the "blues" category, with his powerful, resonant guitar accompanying songs with strong lyrics and evocative story lines, and if he is as good as this at 18 the mind boggles at what he might achieve as he develops. The weekend after appearing at Jurassic Folk he went on the win the Young Performers Award at the prestigious Wath Festival in South Yorkshire, and is clearly someone to watch for the future. For those of you who missed this night, you could have a glimpse of Big Al at http://youtu.be/m9Mo08whFlI and of Sunjay at http://youtu.be/XFLL2NuVVI8 and several other clips we've put up on YouTube. And Jolly's pics of the evening will be up on the gallery very shortly at http://eastdevonfolk.jalbum.net/

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:39 AM

You know, I have seen this somewhere before. Someone new , who I like = good. Everyone else = Bad, traditional, miserable, folk police. I can't think who though. Maybe a fan of yours Al? :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:56 AM

Looking through Sunjay Brayne's Youtube videos, he reminds me of the singer / guitar player John Smith. Both good singers, good guitar players, but neither in any way sounding like themselves, more indebt to the hundreds of others who've passed before. Not a bad thing in itself, we all do it to a certain extent. I'm sure they'll both find their voices, but right now, they're like interesting and talented mimics.

Here's John Smith - http://youtu.be/GupnKLhKT10 - but he has loads on Youtube.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:47 AM

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about John Smith. Saw him live a few times a few years ago.

There's also John Drain, another young brit bluesy fingerpicker you'll find on youTube.
Tom Dale, in Cornwall, too (who I really like)

I might start a whole new thread on British fingerpickers who people ought to listen to.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:17 AM

yeh and i've heard it all before from your lot,Dave.

songs about me grandad's wellies in the first world war - great.

everything else - pseudo American rubbish

friends of yours, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:23 AM

Al - can things really be as bad as make out? I never see this side of open folk combat (save from the occasional spat on Mudcat) but we get all sorts in our club, from finger pickers to nose pickers and often both. Try Ross Campbell (who isn't a nose picker) whose flawless 12-string finger-style is the joy of many...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Hendrix
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:25 AM

but the thing is Sunjay doesnt write his own material, whereas most of the others mentioned do

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:34 AM

Steve Hicks writes his own material

Martin Carthy writes his own material

Not what they're primarlly known for

Just cannot see what why you feel so negative about this young man - hardly more than a boy.

Perhaps because he points to people like Roger Brooks and Gerry Lockran - who you had no business excluding from English folk music in the first place. he points the way to the potency of this kind of music, and the way it excites and relates to English audiences in the way that 'the tradition' doesn't.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Hendrix
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:58 AM

take your point Al, but they do their own arrangements of songs. Basically all we are saying is that he's good now, but once he has found his own voice he'll be even better.
I think we should be encouraging him to write.
I think your comment about him being 'cheated and deprived of being the greatest living folk musician' hit a few nerves because of this. Performing very good and accurate renditions of Chris Smither and Roger Brook songs and their arrangements of other songs will only take him so far.
I'm not excluding Roger Brooks and Gerry Lockran from English Folk, for what its worth I consider the Artic Monkeys to be folk music.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:33 AM

Yeh it was just 1970's that damaged us all you had to be either Ewan MacColl or Fred Wedlock - anything in the middle got the bums rush.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:33 AM

Whereabouts were you in the '70s, Al - just out of curiosity?

I was in London until 1975 and the prevailing style in many of the "folk" venues at that time was stuff in the manner of Davy Graham, Renbourn, Jansch, McTell, Mike Chapman, etc., plus the Bristol-based blues contingent. The Cousins was still doing its typical thing, and I recall getting any number of gigs solo and a regular residency in Bayswater with a jug band in those years.

When I came down to Sussex in 1976, I fell into the Dark Side and started playing jazz with the guys in Brighton - but there was still a good, contemporary scene there as well, in venues like the Marlborough, the (former) Springfield, the pub now called Circus Circus at Preston Circus - and they co-existed alongside more traditional clubs in places like Lewes. I used to drop in the Brighton venues for a bit of blues and ragtime picking now and then, and then nip into the jazz pubs for a sit-in on rhythm guitar.

But perhaps London and Brighton were more cosmopolitan in those days than other areas. What I've never done is the singer-songwriter/contemporary self-penned stuff - I always left it to others of that persuasion.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 09:25 AM

I was in Brum most of the time.

Jasper and Malc Stent were going great guns over at The Boggery.

The Grey Cock on the rimgway wouldn't let me play there cos i said my main influence was ralph McTell.

Ian Campbell had replaced Swarbrick with a succession of musicians Colin Tomis, Aiden Foord, Andy Taylor, and the Jug of Punch was struggling on.

You could see Christy at Digbeth Hall for 50p but there were bombs going off - I didn't give nim my patronage - I didn't approve.

The drunks at the Broadway Folk Club kept booking Gerry Lockran, but they didn't pay him the coourtesy of shutting up.

Billy Connolly, Jasper, and then Mike Harding paid Alex Campbell and derek Brimstone the compliment of naming them as their main influence bu they were working for ten times their main influences fee.

My first paid gig was to Nic Jones . he pissed the floor singers off by staying downstairs and not listening to them.

The organiser at The Old crown in Digbeth confided - he could get Carthy forsixty quid (about what I was earning as ateacher per month) cos Martin was a mate.

Vin Garbutt was the new kid on the block Very funny and a good whistle player, but the music plodded, the Ballad of lesley seemed interminable.

Alex made an album called Goodbye Booze. But he still sang the last Thing on my Mind twice and didn't seem to notice.

And the hits keep coming.....

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:53 PM

yeh and i've heard it all before from your lot,Dave.

songs about me grandad's wellies in the first world war - great.

everything else - pseudo American rubbish

friends of yours, perhaps?

I find that particularly Ironic, Al. Seeing as I gave your CD a good review and offered you a gig at our club. Maybe if you continue along the same path you may just get noticed as a clever writer rather than a whinging wassock :-) BTW - My favourite band of all time is Jethro Tull. Funny you should mention Ian Anderson as being one of the few who sings entirely in a non-American accent. There are in fact loads more but as a ridiculously phoney American accent seems to feature hevily in some repertoires closer to home I guess you just didn't notice them?

How come you never took me up on the offer of a gig BTW? I am still happy to put you on at our club. Any Friday that isn't booked. You dictate the fee and format and keep the whole of the door takings. At least 2 traditional and 1 contemprary acts from the 'cat have done the same.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:13 PM

Oh, and just to make sure that don't get hold of the wrong impression about our club, as you have obviously got the wrong impression about me and a lot of other people I will set another challenge.

Look at our YouTube channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/swintonfolkclub then come back and tell me what proportion of singer/songwriter to trad material you find. I could give you the answer right away and it amazed me. But I would rather you work it out for yourself.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:15 PM

and the way it excites and relates to English audiences in the way that 'the tradition' doesn't.

But not half as much as Elton John or Cliff Richard or The X-Factor or Barry Manilow, eh? Still, in your regime of hierarchical absolutes, Al I suppose it's all a matter of scale - and knowing ones place in the conspiracy. And there I was thinking it was all a matter of taste. How wrong I was...

My favourite band of all time is Jethro Tull.

Just bought the Isle of Wight DVD (Nothing is Easy) the other week - absolute classic. I lose interest after Thick as a Brick, but this is always worth a look for Wyrdish Vibes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wT6fkDg8k

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:41 PM

I'm grateful very gratefuk for the offer of a gig. Thankyou. However thanks to thefact that no one would give me tumble in my younger days - I have no national profile - I couldn't fill a telephone box in Manchester! But thanks. Also my health is quite precarious - I have a heart condition, due to something I was born with, but has got serious with the advancing years. I find travel very tiring.

But seriously thankyou.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:52 PM

Difficult to explain Sweeney - its not what you think.

What its to do with is this. For long years i was the guy who set his gear up in front of the dart board in the pub, or I was in the group that no one had heard of down the WMC.

And in that time, because I kept my ears open I learned about English people. What they responded to/ What they sang along tp. What made them laugh. What made them get up and dance.

And you know - much as I loved most traditional music in the folk clubs. Much of it, and its performance was confrontational to what it was English people loved in music.

And to be honest I grew quite dismayed when traditionalists started opening clubs where populist music was discouraged, running university courses encouraging young people to spend their time on the shelves of the library in Cecil sharp House and other museums looking for songs that no one sang and dances that no one danced.

All i'm saying is that Sunjay Brayne's music has got some of the other stuff. Life - rather than the memory of it.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:59 PM

Sorry to hear of your poor health, Al. Offer is there if ever you find yourself in this neck of the woods.

How about the other challenge though? About looking at what goes on at our club. You have accused me of liking nothing but songs about me grandad's wellies in the first world war . For around 30 years now I have laboured on keeping Swinton Folk Club going. It has cost me dearly in pocket, credibilty and mental health. Yet you quite happily seem to dismiss me and all the other club organisers who put their heart, soul, health and bank accounts into keeping their clubs going as some sort of souless monsters who like nothing better than putting down new talent. I'll tell you what. You don't even have to look at our clubs channel. Out of all the somgs on there over 90% are contemporary.

This blinkered view you have that that folk clubs only book 'traddie' acts is utter nonsense. I have been in clubs, ancient and modern, all over the country and have never had anything but a warm welcome. even before anyone knows what I sing or do. Apart from at an open-mike night just outside Newcastle where I was told that 'traditional and unaccompanied crap' was not welcome. I left after the forty seventh verse of a 17 year old lad telling me, in nearly C major, that no-one understood him...

Come on, you are intelligent. I know you are, not only by your postings here but by your songs. Can you not see that setting someone up as the best thing since sliced bread will always engender some negativity. On here it has been surprisingly low yet you still get your knickers in a twist! I am sure that Sunjay is brilliant and destined for marvelous things yet you are doing hime no favours by suggesting that this mythical folk police, that only you and possibly 2 other peopel have heard of, will stop him doing anything at all.

Get with the times man! (Just to prove how trad I am...)

DtG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:16 PM

I just watched a Youtube of John Drain, mentioned above. Very funny, like that guy from Level 42 playing slap bass blues. It seemed the ultimate in style over content - extremely quick, extremely showy, but ultimately rather pointless. It got me thinking about impressionists. Mere vocal impressionists - your Rory Bremner and such - they're seen as being just that - impressionists. But stick a guitar in their hands, all of a sudden they expect to be taken seriously as a unique creation, or at least, their own thing, something new. But they're just impressionists. Pretending to be John Martyn or Robert Johnson or whoever. And often they are taken very seriously, as we all know. Rory Bremnar's never been asked to form a government though, has he? Maybe he should pick up a guitar.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:53 PM

Dear Dave

I am a person of monumental inconsequence.

My opinions are my opinions and I can't help having them. They are possibly totally mistaken, and founded on profound misunderstandings.

Small things, but my own. My opinions and the expression of them. A right that my father fought for, against the nazi hoards.

best wishes

al

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:22 AM

I hear what you're saying, Al - and in class terms this has always been my beef with The Revival anyway which manifests in all sorts of way. In a recent interview of one of the new VOTP releases I pointed out the hallowed & sanctified upper middle-class academic air of such things is entirely at odds with the very ordinariness of the working class women & men who made & sang these songs, much less the earthy subject matter of the songs themselves (read it yourselves in the next issue of Stirrings...)

But this is Revival Ville - and the people who sing such songs now are very different to the people who were singing them 200 years ago, and the reasons why they sing them are different as well. I even had to point out to someone the other night that they weren't a Traditional Singer, but a singer of Traditional Songs. They accused me of dabbling in semantics, but I had to insist that it was a difference that any lover of traditional song had to be aware of; like the difference between real trains and 00-scale replicas that I dare say even the most ardently deranged model railway enthusiast would never question.

Yesterday in MCR, we listened to a street musician with a guitar essaying contemporary popular songs to a generally appreciative audience. It was, in truth, a timeless scene that could have been any time in the last 700 years and longer - that of a gifted singer knowing exactly which buttons to press in his punters to get the readies. As Harker points out in Fakesong the revival quickly switched from descrition to prescription pretty early on (i.e. the 1954 Definition which still excites the orthodoxy today) but the reality is that the context and experience of Real Popular (i.e. Folk) Music has little to do with the so-called Tradition.

Once I had the honour of MC-ing a Saturday gig at the Steamer in Fleetwood during the Fylde Festival (I am the world's worst MC - I never did it again). That gig is one of the hardest in the world, packed as it is not with Folkies, but with locals. When Bruce Mathiske took the stage something amazing happened. I don't know what it was - a meeting of hearts, souls, minds... God knows what; but the audience wouldn't let him go - they loved him with a passion & the contact was deep, immediate and pure. I don't know if that's the sort of thing you're on about, or if Bruce Mathiske is one of your sort of guitarists, but that night, I believe to this day, I witnessed the essence of Folk Music as a living, breathing thing.

That said, my ideal gig is doing experimental electro-drone Jew's harp & pocket trumpet improvisations to an audience of 6 upstairs in The Red Deer at Sheffield. There, in that rarified air, where the audience would frown if I dared talk to them, am I happiest...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:27 AM

PS - Here's Bruce essaying my favourite tune of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B2z9KC5x44

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:10 AM

wow! what a beautiful resonant guitar sound. I quite liked the gig at The Steamer - with all the people who came for the market! Pete Skinner is a great mate and of course - him and John are kings of the place.

When i did the steamer I was still struggling with getting a sound with the variax, which is just the ace guitar for that sort of pub gig.

I'm pretty sorted now. The new lightweight Fender acoustasonic amp (150 watt) is a big improvement on the 30watt thing that I tried to do the Steamer with - I was using the line out to the PA -which always sounds like shit.

Id love to be at Fylde this year - my favourite folk festival by a mile! But Denise has got a date in June for a shoulder replacememnt op - so my services as gofer will be in much demand.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:35 AM

Excellent clip, SA - thanks for the link - just the right notes and feel for the tune, and played immaculately.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:39 AM

The Steamer's under new management after a year or so of caretaker-lull following the glory days of Cliff and Shirley, but it seems to be thriving again - lots of events, bands, singers, open mics, although, sadly, the Folk Club no longer meets there (not that the Sinclair Room was ideal, but it had a certain soul). The Steamer's just at the end of our street but (shamefully) I only pop in if I want to find my old mukka 'Sailor' Ron Baxter, who does his art in there in his downtime. Good to see it springing into life again & the new landlord seems a jovial cove (a fellow ex-pat Geordie, ha!) so hopefully it'll see good use in the festival this year, just as long as they don't ask me to MC the Saturday night... They say you can fit the entire population of the world on the Isle of Wight if they all stood very close together - that's what The Steamer feels like on the Saturday of the Fylde.

Actually, writing this, I'm tempted to pop down just now for a toastie & pint of Bombadier by way of a quick lunch. Maybe I'll suggest to the new guy starting up an experimental music & free-improvisation club in The Sinclair Room...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:48 AM

Ahhhh - OK! I am a Nazi now? better than folk police I suppose. At least we can now invoke Goodwins law and stop this nonsense. I just wonder though if your father and your father passed each other. maybe when my Dad was trying to escape Mazi oppression in Poland. then again maybe it was when he was shipped to a labour camp by the communists when they regained Bialystok? Or just maybe when he joined the 8th Army and was wounded at Monte Casino. Maybe after the war when he became treasurer of the trade union? No wonder I am such a left wing pinko nazi.

:D tG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 11:14 AM

I did not call you a Nazi.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:07 PM

My Dad was at monte casino, he had a polish mate he called Bob Skop, any relation

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:08 PM

Dave, take a breath. Take two. :)

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:56 PM

Aye, you are right SRS - As usual- I have now had at least 220 and a couple of glasses of Chardonay :-)

I know you didn't, Al. But the implication was there.

Small things, but my own. My opinions and the expression of them. A right that my father fought for, against the nazi hoards.

Sorry, but you cannot get away with statements like that. The imnpliation is plain for all to see. Anyone who disagrees with your opinions or expresion of them is a nazi. If that was not what you meant, pray tell why you chose to bring it up in that way? It is as dictatorial as anything old Adolph came out with. BTW, did you know he really did only have one ball?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:33 PM

Gentlemen please. You'll give yourselves nose bleeds.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:28 PM

I have just deleted a whole diatribe trying to explain how it is but somehow it seems f**king futile. So, son, (I assume you are reading this) You have a talent, stick at it, work at it, and you might make it. There is no substitute for hard work, always remember that you are only as good as your last gig. I wish you luck and a successful career. nuff said

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:33 PM

There was no implication. One of the few things I've got to be proud of is a father who put his life on the line to fight in WW2.

There was insult intended to your good self.

Millions of people disagree with me. Often with good reason, as I am wrong about lots of things.

Apologies for any offence caused - completely unintentional

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:22 AM

Why would anyone want to write "essaying popular songs"?

Why would anyone refuse to see that there is a difference of type, not style, between a folk art and a contemporary one?

Why have people forgotten that a folk singer is not the same thing as a folksong singer who in turn is not the same as a singer-songwriter?

Al, you are a great creator - but I fail to understand your hostility towards folk song.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:06 AM

Dave

That should have read

THERE WAS NO INSULT INTENDED TO YOUR GOOD SELF>

Richard

I'm not sure I have a hostility. I suppose I first heard a song like Geordie done by Joan Baez and I think most people can dig it that way.

Then you hear Carthy's version (is it Karpeles, he reckons to have got it from) and the approach seems obscurantist Calculated to throw the average listener off the scent of a good folksong experience.

Similarly Baez's version on of Henry martin seems like a rattling good song. By the time its become Lofty Tall Ships (from sam Larner I believe) - its like a lyrical fragment - rather than awhole song. I don't know if you've ever seen a complete works of Shelley - but its as though, someone has said bollocks to prometheus Unbound and the Mask of Anarchy - the real poetry is all these twatty little fragments.

Of course Carthy redeems himself a million times over by being possibly the greatest guiar player of our generation. But add some cack handed sod trying to duplicate his work or singing the words from a loose leaf folder, unaccompanied and in and out of key like a fiddlers elbow - and you've got a complete hit job on folk music.

Some of my problem could stem from being an ex remedial teacher. Make things as simple as you can. Simplify them. Don't change yur mind halfway through the lesson.

I rather envy these blokes who can make a living from being complex subtle and all the rest of it! Pure jealousy really!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:10 AM

Why would anyone want to write "essaying popular songs"?

Because that's exactly what I saw, Richard - same as I see many Folksong Singers essaying Traditional Songs, or Bruce Mathiske essaying Caravan. Allow me to explain. Essaying would ordinarily (I suppose) be a matter of attempting something, or having a go. Here it's similar, but it's more a matter of acknowledging traditional continuance and the sort of aesthetic / cultural assumptions any non-traditional artist might make when approaching / covering a particular piece of traditional music to somehow make it their own, which of course it never is. I have somewhere my Caravan Collection which takes in everyone from The Mills Brothers to Martin Denny, but it sits squarely on the Tizol / Ellington original, the evolution of which was considerable between the initial recording of May 14th 1937*, and that which Ellington would record some 25 years later in a trio with Max Roach and Charles Mingus (Tizol's own versions notwithstanding). As musically accomplished as Bruce Mathiske's cover is, it is not part of the music / cultural lineage (tradition) that gave rise to the song**, thus I say essaying, because it ain't real in the way that the others are. Similarly, Buskers essay popular songs and Folksong Singers essay traditional ones - no matter how good they might be, they are not part of the original musical / cultural / traditional lineage as any Busker / Folksong Singer or Jazz Guitarist will be all too aware. One hopes.

* Sources differ as to when extactly this seminal session was, or who was leading - Ellington or Bigard.

** Song is used here in its Jazz sense, where all sorts of musical pieces and ideas are referred to as songs whether they involve words or not (and a Chorus in Jazz is very difference to a Chorus in folk). Although there are words to Caravan, and several iconic performances (Ella not least) the piece is more often than not essayed instrumentally, even by The Mills Brothers, who used their voices (in this instance) to imitate an instrumental ensemble with trombone and wow-trumpet solos complete with cheeky sycopations, but the only real instrument is the guitar backing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJOs8roE94E

*

Why would anyone refuse to see that there is a difference of type, not style, between a folk art and a contemporary one?

Because not all of us are suckered into the prescriptive fantasies of the Folksong Revival. The very notion of Folk Art is so much patronising paternalistic hokum - it exists to suppress & disempower the very essence of working-class creativity that gave rise to the old songs & ballads in the first place.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:25 AM

Here's a different take; no adds for a start and a mouth-clarinet in the mix as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW4UoxhhoH8&feature=related

Perfect music for a bleary Monday morning...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:03 AM

"Why would anyone refuse to see that there is a difference of type, not style, between a folk art and a contemporary one?

Because not all of us are suckered into the prescriptive fantasies of the Folksong Revival. The very notion of Folk Art is so much patronising paternalistic hokum - it exists to suppress & disempower the very essence of working-class creativity that gave rise to the old songs & ballads in the first place."

Well I think you're both getting too hung up on the urge to categorize and capitalize. It implies things are a lot more homogenous than they actually are: I prefer my Folk Revival uncapitalised, thanks, because Shirley Collins is not Bert Jansch, and Bert Jansch was not Ewan MacColl.

Similarly, while you can have arguments about whether something is "a difference of type, not style" in the abstract and in general, those kind of distinctions start to unravel in practice - when you start to think about specific musicians and what they do.

There are plenty of folk-scene musicians who play proper trad folk material, but do so in a way undistinguishable from singer-songwriter pop idioms. Change the words and they'd be David Gray or Coldplay or Ed Sheeran. Now is that a difference of "type" or "style? I don't know, and I think it's irrelevant: style is to type as quantity is to quality (as water is to steam).

Likewise, I think Sedayne gets equally hung up on speculating on what singers might *think* they are doing, rather than what they actually are doing. I've yet to encounter anyone on the folk scene who does in fact genuinely believe they are a 19th century farm labourer, or even merely the reincarnation of one.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:42 AM

I dunno about that - there was Peter Bellamy who reckoned he wanted to sound like an 18th century agricultural worker who had suffered a nervous breakdown on account of his land being enclosed. Thus the tremor in his his voice.

And AL Lloyd says says something similar in Folksong in England.

Both big hitters in the way of things.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:09 AM

"I dunno about that - there was Peter Bellamy who reckoned he wanted to sound like an 18th century agricultural worker who had suffered a nervous breakdown on account of his land being enclosed. Thus the tremor in his his voice."

Not the same thing though. The salient words highlighted:

"I've yet to encounter anyone on the folk scene who does in fact GENUINELY BELIEVE they ARE a 19th century farm labourer, or even merely the reincarnation of one."

But the main point is that while it's interesting, it is ultimately irrelevant what was going through Bellamy's head - what he thought he was doing, whether he thought his art was more or less authentic than anyone else's. He may well have wanted to sound like that.

For all I know, that's what Lady GaGa wants to sound like too. It has little bearing on what they actually sound like. What's important is whether he succeeded in making convincing, potent, good art.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:26 AM

I'm sure he did.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:29 AM

But having said that, my mum and dad in law went to see him, and they couldn't make nor tail of it - just ordinary English.. Its all very well Carthy saying - just because you're English it doesn't mean you get this stuff.

I think ordinary folk should have SOME idea of what's going on.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:32 AM

I rather like the idea that in her own head Lady Gaga sounds like Peter Bellamy...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:33 AM

there are many, many excellent fingerstyle blues players,you only have to look at youtube to see this. Sunjay needs good publicity,and a good helping of luck. Even so trying to make a living playing this type of material on the folk scene is likely to prove hard, so get a good day job.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:54 AM

There seems to be quite a big off-the-radar blues scene in Europe though. Endless festivals, with decent sponsorship, that you don't know about till you start rootling around. France has a crazy amount of blues festivals.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:10 AM

I've yet to encounter anyone on the folk scene who does in fact genuinely believe they are a 19th century farm labourer, or even merely the reincarnation of one.

Me neither - that's what I'm saying. Although there is Ewan MacColl's very queer notion of 'Method Singing' which is as patronisingly absurd as anything Sharp & his bourgeois cronies ever came up with. I think any Folksong Singer - great & small - invents their own fantasy world anyway, just any model railway enthusiast does. Whether they then go on to insist that fantasy has any objective currency is another matter entirely, although it could make a good horror story, rather like the Ventriloquist Dummy segment of The Dead of Night which deals with a similar sort of (potential) psychotic trauma in which things blur rather...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:55 PM

"I think any Folksong Singer - great & small - invents their own fantasy world anyway"

We might inhabit the fantasy world of each song, for the duration of that song, but that's as far as it goes, for me anyway. I don't need to invent one.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:59 PM

You can be a gambler that never drew a hand
You can be a sailor that never left dry land
You can be Lord Jesus all the world will understand
Down where etc etc

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:48 PM

I object to people who say "endeavour" in stead of "try". It's much the same thing - deliberate obscurantism and pretension. Anyone who does that has no chance with folk song.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:14 PM

I object to people who say "endeavour" in stead of "try"

I object to people who object to how other people express themselves. focus on the content not the form, m'learned friend.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: matt milton
Date: 15 May 12 - 05:54 AM

"I think any Folksong Singer - great & small - invents their own fantasy world anyway, just any model railway enthusiast does."

Again the capitalisation....

I sing folk songs, and would fall into the "small" category rather than the "great", but I certainly don't invent any fantasy worlds, whether my own or anybody else's.

Is that because I am not a "Folksong Singer" - just a "folk singer" or alternatively a "singer of folk songs"?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:47 AM

This morning I was up with the larks, not so much out with my gun in the dew glistening meadows o' May bathed in Phoebus's risen rays, but rather sitting in a succession of waiting rooms (how's that for a collective noun??) feeling utterly depressed. Anticipating this lack o' cheer, I took along my cherished CBC edition of Bob Copper's Song for Every Season & was, as ever, transported into what is, to me, a fantasy of a world I might only experience on a very remote level at several removes, the songs likewise. This is why when I think of those perfect rain-lashed and fire-lit nights in the backroom of the Colpitts in Durham, smoking Golden Virginia & quaffing Sam Smith's Old Brewery Bitter whilst being utterly enchanted by Ian McCulloch's masterful essaying of The Copper Family Song Book (I'm thinking of Admiral Benbow in particular here, which was mentioned in the passage I was reading earlier) I do so in terms of pure séance. In fact, I think of all Folk as a sort of séance; because it's certainly not real - it's invoked by a self-appointed cast of seasoned shamanic spirit-mediums (media?) who seek trance possession and holy communion in the singing of sacred canonical texts that only really have any meaning to the initiated.

This is the sort of fantasy world I'm talking about; a world that sure as hell ain't real, though it might appear to be real (i.e. collective, common, objective) but it only works because it is, in fact, entirely subjective. We create it, and we maintain it, in between times, in the real world, in goodly faith of our conviction and calling, and subsequent dedication to the craft of the Revival Folksong Singer, who must, like the Model Railway Enthusiast, lovingly tend their world in plastic miniature with all the exacting dedication demanded of their calling. Meanwhile, back in the real world, real trains and real living breathing popular music continue to whizz past. And whilst Battle Re-enactment Groups flourish - everything from Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Elizabethans, Roundheads, Border Reivers and WW2 Home Guards - I don't think the government will be sending any of them off to Afghanistan any time soon.

This is but one of several inherent dualities of Folk. Personally, I like to be aware of such things - yeah, even as a Folksong Singer & Enthusiast - and openly confess that it was the fantasy that suckered me into it in the first place and the fantasty that keeps me there unto this day. Imagination is a good thing, especially in the sort of world we inhabit today. Crikey - I might go completely insane otherwise - assuming, of course, I haven't already...

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Lets get back to the topic
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:55 AM

so how was the gig Sunjay?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:55 AM

'fantasty that keeps me there unto this day. Imagination is a good thing'

yes indeed - chubby ladies, in black lingerie do it for me....

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:37 PM

No need for apologies, Al, but it was appreciated anyway. If I was over-riled by the use of the term Nazi and came across too strong then I also apologise. But, just maybe, peopel will eventualy stop accusing others of being Nazis when they disagree with their views.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:58 PM

Or indeed gratuitous philological exhibitionists.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,matt milton, master of reality
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:38 PM

"In fact, I think of all Folk as a sort of séance; because it's certainly not real"

it's not more or less real than any other music or any other art

"it's invoked by a self-appointed cast of seasoned shamanic spirit-mediums (media?) who seek trance possession and holy communion in the singing of sacred canonical texts that only really have any meaning to the initiated."

There's so much that's wrong with that sentence, I barely know where to begin... Suffice to say that, straight off the top of my head, I can think of plenty of people and performances that wholly belie that generalisation. And I'm sure you could too if you felt like playing devil's advocate with yourself.

"it might appear to be real (i.e. collective, common, objective) but it only works because it is, in fact, entirely subjective"

Exactly the same can be said about pop music. You're in danger of suggesting that what's subjective doesn't count as "real". And actually, you're coming close to suggesting that dominant artistic forms such as chart pop (ie the forms that make the most money) are more vital and "real" than the ones on the margins. Simon Frith and Simon Cowell would doubtless agree.

I dunno about your "real" world, but it certainly sounds like a fantasy: trains don't go whizzing by, they have been privatised into an extortionately priced inefficient carve-up. And chart pop is a cynical racket sewn up by TV marketeers, which even the occasional good bit of hip-hop or cheesy disco can't rescue.

(And don't forget that pop music is merely music that's popular, nothing more, nothing less: it doesn't care about genre. Folk music is pop music if it happens to sell enough copies. The music of decades passed routinely top the contemporary album charts thanks to the infinitely re-recuperating wheel of new formats - I wouldn't be surprised if the Beatles were currently no.1 again. Folk music is pop music whenever an album happens to sell enough measly few copies/downloads to hit the top 10. )

I discover plenty of "reality" in folk song, and that reality is no less real and true than that of any other art form I might happen to interest myself in. I got into folk and blues because I was into hip-hop and punk.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:31 PM

Good point Matt, Pop Music is music that is popular which can include Folk. Yeh I can go with that. So what is Traditional Music then?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:00 PM

it's not more or less real than any other music or any other art

Talking of the relationship between The Tradition and The Revival in terms of social class & social funtion then I feel we can question the reality of the latter - which isn't to dismiss it entirely. Even revival notions of The Tradition are (at best) a tad shadowy, but it serves as a convenient watershed between the wan thing an't'other.

There's so much that's wrong with that sentence, I barely know where to begin...

And who the hell are you to tell me I'm wrong? By all means disagree, but all I'm doing here is riffing on a few notions as they pop into my weary brain after a Very Stressful Morning.

Suffice to say that, straight off the top of my head, I can think of plenty of people and performances that wholly belie that generalisation. And I'm sure you could too if you felt like playing devil's advocate with yourself.

Nope, I don't think I can - not in Revival Folk anyway. It's what makes it interesting. For sure sometimes the shortfall between intention and result is such that it doesn't quite come off, but generally I can be transported by even the most mediocre of singers if their hearts are in the right place.

Exactly the same can be said about pop music.

No it can't - because there the music is a multiplicity of living & breathing musical traditions, unlike the idiom of Traditional English Folk Song which is dead.

You're in danger of suggesting that what's subjective doesn't count as "real".

Not so, just that it isn't objective. My reality is not your reality, and vice versa, but there is a reality we both share. The reality I share with Carmen Perkins-Blodmonath (not her real name) over the road is another matter entirely. I'm sure my subjective reality is not in the least bit real to her, but we often stop and chat about things that matter to us both (seagulls mostly).

And actually, you're coming close to suggesting that dominant artistic forms such as chart pop (ie the forms that make the most money) are more vital and "real" than the ones on the margins.

In terms of objective cultural process they are. My position is that there is an unbroken continuous popular musical reality going back 50,000 years (at least) that takes in Traditional English Folk Song and evolves into the sort of stuff people are doing & experiencing today which has just as much meaning in their lives as Admiral Benbow had to Bob Copper.

Simon Frith and Simon Cowell would doubtless agree.

Hey, I watched Sounds of the 70s on BBC2 last night and came close to suicide. The fringes are my reality & always have been, but I don't expect anyone else to go spend their down time immersed in Magma bootlegs or archive recordings of McCoy Tyner, Roland Kirk or Harry Cox.

I dunno about your "real" world, but it certainly sounds like a fantasy: trains don't go whizzing by, they have been privatised into an extortionately priced inefficient carve-up. And chart pop is a cynical racket sewn up by TV marketeers, which even the occasional good bit of hip-hop or cheesy disco can't rescue.

Well, I see trains whizz by and every time I get hip to what's going down on Tim Westwood, it's vanished away like easter snow. Time was I could keep up, these days I can't. But I disagree about the cynical racket - it's no more cynical a racket than Broadsheets or Topic CDs. It betrays cultural process and creativity and artistry at a very high level indeed, no different from the ordinary working class men & women who made the old songs (but very different from the upper-class ones who collected them, or those who sing them today, but that's another issue).

(And don't forget that pop music is merely music that's popular, nothing more, nothing less: it doesn't care about genre.

I use the term Popular in exactly the same way Prof Child use it. It's not a numbers thing - it's popular as in people. And yes - Genre is immaterial.

Folk music is pop music if it happens to sell enough copies.

Folk music was once Popular Music. Now it's a handful of musical genres. Irrespective of how many units a folk album sells it will always be Folk.

The music of decades passed routinely top the contemporary album charts thanks to the infinitely re-recuperating wheel of new formats - I wouldn't be surprised if the Beatles were currently no.1 again. Folk music is pop music whenever an album happens to sell enough measly few copies/downloads to hit the top 10.

Culture is leveling out into a very Traditional / Nostalgic phase, hence last nights Sounds of the 70s debacle. But this is true for classical, jazz, prog, gamelan, etc. etc.

I discover plenty of "reality" in folk song, and that reality is no less real and true than that of any other art form I might happen to interest myself in. I got into folk and blues because I was into hip-hop and punk.

That sort of reality is still very subjective, even if I happen to share it with you. I still love punk & hip-hop & blues, though these days I prefer The Young Marble Giants to the Young Tradition. In the end, it's just a matter of whatever floats your boat.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:45 PM

"There you go again".

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:04 PM

Dolly Parton!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 03:25 AM

Some how I am getting the feeling we have been here numerous times. It would be interesting to recall ones earliest introduction music. I know my earliest contact was through my Mum and (maternal) Grandad singing to us as part of the goodnight ritual. The only books we had in our house were a set of encyclopaedia britanica that a travelling sold Mum whilst Dad was out and the odd library book when we were old enough to catch a bus into the village where there was a library; where is this taking us - well it is as near as I got to the oral/aural tradition of remembering songs as opposed to learning songs. I think the written word and mass literacy may have changed the way our brain stores information, my understanding of the folk tradition is less about content but how it is processed, stored and retrieved,. When I get really pissed approaching semiconsciousness I come out with music hall songs that I don't recognise at all when I am sober, presumably from my grandfather who's father was a music hall and later, silent movie pianist, similarly I sing songs that I assume my mother used to sing which I cannot recall at all when sober, it must have come from the bedtime songs and stories that are locked up in my memory. The second contact was through the family gatherings when each family member would get up and do their party piece my older cousin's remember my (paternal) grandad singing "Jack the Carters Lad", he died when I was an infant so I have no memory of this, my Dad sang "South of the Border", Mum sang "Don't Fence Me In", and Aunt Helena sang a version of "Rose of Allandale", Cousin John sang "The vicar of Bray", accompanying himself on the piano when in his own parlour, I recited poetry from a book. For me the tradition is not the genre but the act of getting together and doing it, it is less about the songs and more about the culture of participation. Pop music is associated with listening and not joining in with (festivals excepted but that is hardly a frequent occurrence) and getting more so with earphones, probably started with the broadsheets and music halls, rot set in a long time ago! I have a very eclectic taste in music that I listen to but I get bored very easily so I prefer a mix but when I am singing it is different, I am a bit of a slut in that respect, I will join in and try to find a harmony to anything but it is far easy to do it to songs from what is termed to be the traditional genre cos by and large the range is not difficult and the ones that have stood the test of time have a lot in for the singer (is that darwin in action?) So does one have to be a farm labourer to sing farm labouring songs or enjoying farm labouring songs? Do you have to be a moron perform, or listen to Drum and Bass? Ok, I see where my argument falls down ! But I think the arguments about genre are pointless, just as the arguments about revival and tradition are utterly futile it's like the Judean Popular Front versus the Popular Front for Judea, who is the the top dog! Far too much energy is expended arguing whether one tosses the coin with the left or right hand and not enough time spent on the result of the toss.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 03:31 AM

Oh I forgot to add that after "Popular Front for Judea" it should have been followed by (spit) "splittahs!"

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Old Hobden
Date: 16 May 12 - 06:07 AM

But I think the arguments about genre are pointless, just as the arguments about revival and tradition are utterly futile it's like the Judean Popular Front versus the Popular Front for Judea, who is the the top dog!

Go read Fakesong and The Imagined Village and see if you feel the same way. Fact is, there is a massive disparity between Revival and Traditional culture on any number of levels - aesthetical, cultural, political, social, structural etc. - and it pays (I feel) to be aware of these even to the point of seeing The Tradition as an invention of the revival, without which the myths on which our understanding of Traditional Folk Culture are predicated wouldn't exist. As we have seen umpteen times here on Mudcat, Revival Culture sees Folk more in terms of prescription than description. Subjecting essentially proletarian / popular / folk art to any sort of academic scrutiny is always going to raise problems, but the essentially feral nature of the Popular Art itself will always resist analysis and containment, despite the patronage and condescension intregral to revival sensitivities, and despite the massive gulfs of social class which meant not just tolerance of, but deference to, those well-healed aristocrats who took such an 'interest' in the culture of the servile workers however so specious that interest was. It's an imperialistic colonial thing born of the fuedal heritage of the British class system which is cultural apartheid in all but name; indeed, it might even be seen as being as Traditionally British as fish & chips or the working-class inclinitation to defer to upper-class mores anyway if only by way of cultural security, certainly if the 'Jubilee' displays in ASDA are anything to go by.

'Hob'.

PS - The 'River-Bit' issue was eventually sorted by the building of aforementioned ASDA, which I don't own any part of.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 07:57 AM

are we talking creationism or evolution?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Julius Fabricius
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:34 AM

Are the mutually-supportive 'Suibhne Astray' and 'Old Hobden' by any chance related?

And does either have anything useful to say about Sunjay Brayne?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:53 AM

spoil sport!

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 May 12 - 09:26 AM

are we talking creationism or evolution?

I think the situation is reversed in the Fundamentalist Folk Realms, where the received wisdom is that there is something inherently inhuman about your genuine Folk Song on account of its evolution. You often read on Mudcat that such-and-such a song isn't a Folk Song because we know who wrote it, and that, no matter how entrenched that song may be in its particular community, if it hasn't satisfied the rather petty prescriptions of the 1954 Definition then isn't a Folk Song. So in the Fundamentalist Folk Realms, Folk Songs evolve via the quasi-mystical Folk Process - an essentially nebulous anonymous collective thing the substance of which is never fully explained - rather than via the creative genius of the individual working-class woman & men who made them, sang them, and altered them to suit their needs, or else mended the gaps left by the usual factors of wear & tear & imperfect recollection in an essentially oral context (fnarr, fnarr), or not as the case might be. Thus, my position is that belief in The Folk Process takes the same sort of blind faith as belief in Creationism, whereas the equivalent to Evolutionary Science is that Folk Songs are no different to any other sort of songs in that people write them according to a particular style (tradition), and sing them, change them, pass them on, and on, and on... So it is musical idioms & items evolve according to specific factors involving real human individuals as the creative masters of their craft.

*

Are the mutually-supportive 'Suibhne Astray' and 'Old Hobden' by any chance related?

Old Hobden is, in fact, my spirit guide in matters Folk related; as a medium, I welcome his timeless radical wisdom which I'm honoured to channel in possession, although (on the downside) the ectoplasm is a bugger to get out the carpet.

And does either have anything useful to say about Sunjay Brayne?

Go for it, Sunjay. To be honest I don't 'get' that sort of music, but I'm happy that people are playing it and loving it which is all that matters, is it not? All music is Marmite, in which our boat either floats or sinks.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: stallion
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:21 AM

I wrote a long piece very similar to SA and then just honed it down to creation and evolution.
It articulated all the points I had so we must be thinking along the same lines, or at least our analysis was. The only thing worth adding is we might ask at what point did it become important to attribute the author/composer to a song and why. BTW, how did the Gig go Sunjay?

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 12 - 11:08 AM

Well, I listened to the Sunjay track on TGIF and I thought it sounded a bit sort of alt-country.

Subject: RE: Sunjay Brayne in Poole free gig
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM

eighteen months on.

Sunjay's working nearly every day of September an October this year.

Folkclubs dying out....not if you book Sunjay apparently!