BS: Police Brutality

Subject: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:57 AM

If you believe that police brutality in Brtain is amyth or a thing of the past, take a look at this .

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:24 AM

If you tink police brutality ANYWHERE is a myth or a thing of the past you're not dwelling in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:26 AM

I'd give the cops the benefit of the doubt. Shit job, they have to do. Quite difficult to know how to proceed. So easy to tell another man how to do a difficult job.

what was actually wrong with the bloke?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stu
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:48 AM

They do what they want. Kill people and get away with it, kettle people, deny them basic human rights like water or a piss, beat them up etc and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Call one a twat however, and he'll have you up before the beak before you know what's happening. They are a paramilitary organisation there to enforce the will of the ruling elite

Corruption, racism etc etc. Right up the arse of Murdoch et al. Here's the thing: they have the power over us, we can't do anything about it. Our word against theirs - they will win. So I try to avoid having as little to do with them as possible. When I've needed help as a victim of crime they've been anything from rude-disinterested-going through the motions. Of course there are good coppers I don't doubt, but they aren't in charge. I've found them intimidating, threatening and demanding of a respect that needs to be earned, not given because of a badge.

They need to understand they are supposed to be serving the whole of society, and treat people accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Megan L
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:54 AM

Why must we throw blankets over groups of people:

If hes a priest he must be a peadophile
If hes a policeman he must be brutal
If hes a banker he must be corupt
If hes a muslim he must be a terrorist

NO NO NO If there is a bad apple in the barrel blame the bad apple and weed it out dont say all apples are bad.

It is the blanket mentality that allows genocides and general cruelty to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 12 - 09:02 AM

Well Said Megan

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 12 May 12 - 09:54 AM

Yo Megan!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 May 12 - 10:16 AM

Good thinking Megan.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 May 12 - 10:58 AM

That video is not new. It is in fact years old. Doesn't diminish its impact, however.

Has anyone done a search to see what happened to the police officers involved?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 May 12 - 11:14 AM

My mistake. The case is a little over a year old. My apologies.

The Daily Mail carried the story yesterday. The officers have been fined, and further stuff is likely to happen to them for their behaviour in this incident. The Crown Prosecution Service is into it now. fyi

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 12 - 11:17 AM

"Why must we throw blankets over groups of people:"
Because these particular ones have rights which the rest of us don't, in our society - to arrest and detain on suspicion, to enter our homes, to search us on spec... and to investigate themselves when we complain.
At the time of the Lawrence killing an independant enquiry found the police to be "insitutionally racist" - back in the good old days when when "police called women slags and black people wogs" (a recent quote) - the result being that five known killers escaped justice.
One of the horrifying things about the clip (now mysteriously unavailable!!) is that in a presumably working police station, nobody is taking the slightest notice of the screams - everyday occurence maybe (the sarge must be dealing with a customer; bit of a lad that sarge!!!
"If he's a priest he must be a peadophile"
Clerical abuse, sexual and violent assault, now claimed to have been going on for at least a century, was facilitated by an, at best, indifferent and now shown to have been a fully involved church heirarchy, in covering up these apalling crimes and allowing the perps to escape and go on abusing, making leading church members as far up as the Vatican accomplices in child rape. It is not only the abusive priests that were to blame, but the church as a whole that was found to be wanting and it is apallingly dismissive to pass this off as "bad apples".
The same applies to the bankers who have brought the world to its financial knees with their corporate greed.
In all these cases, it is the institutions that allow these things to happen that need repairing.
Take your point about the tiny handful of abusive Muslims though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 12 - 11:55 AM

The problem is that policing is not being separated from military behavior.
Policing focuses on the criminal, wars inflict damage on the innocent as well as the perpetrators.

Bloomberg doesn't understand this very well.

The Occupy Movement does.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 May 12 - 01:47 PM

I dealt with dozens of prisoners while visiting, and while I have no experience of the Met, many of the other Forces around the country were said by the inmates to be 'pussy cats' and more daft than cruel. I knew very well the Norfolk Police in all their glory, and they were in my view, far too tolerant and kind! One inmate in particular had so many encounters with them he was like an adopted son. When he arrived in their Custody Suite, they put the kettle on for him and gave him a few cigarettes. This did nothing to discourage him from a life dedicated to burglary, and he was sometimes violent towards the officers, but they were absolutley avuncular with him, the little horror. He spat and bit (he had Hep B) but they never raised a hand to him. I admired them very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 12 - 01:57 PM

The vid won't load for me but I am with Megan in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 12 - 02:16 PM

'pussy cats'
You have a filmed example of pussy-cats; a thuggish desk sergeant assaulting an obviously incapacitated prisoner while a station full of (presumably equally thuggish) collegues stand by and let it happen.
We all have our stories.
I had a friend who moved from being a village bobby up North to join the Met - he gave it up and became a social worker when he was introduced to the Saturday night 'entertainment' of rounding up (mainly homeless) drunks, putting them in a cell and slapping them round, then dousing them with cold water before letting them go.
When we were working with Travellers we regularly witnessed spot searches of the caravans - the 'dawn raids' were a little to early for us to have seen them, but we did on a number of occasions see the wreckage left behind.
The 14 year old son of one family we knew was 'arrested' in London on suspicion' of having taken part in a burglary, driven to Birmingham to be identified and released without charge and left to make his way back to his family.
Now where did I put that saucer of milk??
If the police are to be trusted with the rights society has given them their behaviour has to be impeccable, otherwise they are no better than the criminals they are supposed to protect us from.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 12 - 02:19 PM

It was an obviously brutal armhold put on a person not in any way resisting and for no obvious reason. I would have expected it to have broken the arm or dislocated a joint.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 12 May 12 - 02:30 PM

This video was the centre of the main news story in the North East regional news last night, the perpetrators were also filmed leaving court having been fined. They are employed by Durham Constabulary. In spite of the case going to court and the guilty verdict, thay have not even been suspended, let alone sacked. they may be a couple of bad apples but it appears that Durham Police see little wrong with their actions. I agree with Megan in principle but this seems to be an organisational rather than an individual problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:05 PM

I was once tailgated late at night (FULL headlights too)- by a young policeman showing off to a police woman him in the car . He apparently wanted me to exceed the speed limit , so he coukd book me

This has NOT resulted in me calling ALL police drivers Bloody Fools , though that is obviously what that one was , especially as he entered private property without asking permission , and trying to browbeat me .

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:38 PM

Al, come off it. Benefit of the doubt? The assault took place in full view of the CCTV cameras and was carried out on a suspect who complained of being seriously ill, and looked it. All the guy had done was to ask for a chair for God's sake.

I don't know what he did to be arrested, but I do know there are rules and procedures, and these are in no way negated by the fact that he was under arrest. What's more, these officers are sworn to uphold the law and yet they nearly wrenched the poor bloke's arm off.

On top of that, I was left with the feeling that the officers in the clip regarded this brutal treatment as a normal operational way of treating their suspects. Note the matter of fact tone when the interview re-started.

Megan. I agree. I refuse point blank to condemn every single police officer on the grounds of incidents such as this. But if you were a decent honest copper who habitually made a point of abiding by the rule book and treating suspects fairly, would you seriously want to work with this sort of scum?

And that's before we even begin to consider the 333 people who died in police custody in the first decade of this country, without a single charge being brought against a single police officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:04 PM

I take on board the views expressed here. I find the video appalling. But as I have no personal experience of the Police except that related to me by many prisoners, I have to reserve judgment. I didn't say the Police were 'pussy cats', I said this was an epithet given them by prisoners while under arrest and in their custody. I was merely reporting views expressed to me by them (for what they are worth) to show that there are apparently many good and benevolent officers around. To put a counter view, (which does not exonerate inhumane treatment by any means) the Police, for example in Norwich, put up with dreadful situations and behaviour such as kicking, biting, spitting, sudden drawing of knives, abuse of every sort, throwing of excrement, and have to enter houses where the entire family (and neighbours) scream abuse, punch and kick. They search people and risk getting pricked by contaminated needles, they get bitten by savage dogs etc etc etc. Their job is a nightmare. But of course I don't condone brutality, it's indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:21 PM

"Their job is a nightmare. "
Quite often because they choose to make it so - I still have a vivid picure of them waving their pay packets at striking miners who had been out of work for many months - not for a pay rise, but to defend their jobs from Countess Thatcherella's axe.
- not to mention this particular hero:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/articles/2009/03/02/lesley_boulton_orgreave_photo_feature.shtml
One more tale.
In the early 80s a group of Travellers, protesting at the fact that most of the London borough's were ignoring their legal obligation to provide sites, moved onto Mitcham Common in SW London.
I was working with a man at the time who (after several pints) boasted that his brother in law (who lived adjacent to the Common) was planning, with a few neighbours, to firebomb the site (2 caravans, both containing large families).
I reported the matter to our local police, but knowing their reputation as far as Travellers were concerned, I also contacted a Gypsy Council member and told him what was planned.
The Gypsy Council members mounted a protective guard on the Common but, as I expected, the police did nothing about the planned attack (which was called off shortly afterwards anyway, possibly because I had made it known to the would-be arsonist that they were sussed by both the Travellers and the police).
Three weeks later I recieved a visit from our local boys in blue who wanted to know why we had been associating with "Gyppos".
Apparently my knowing these people was more important than protecting the men, women and children on the Common.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:26 PM

well the officers had the privilege of arresting this geezer. they could presumably make an assessment of whether he was ill/devoid of faculties or merely buggering them about and being uncooperative. Something which you can't. And have you ever done the job?

probably on a busy night with the phone jumping off the wall with complaints from the public being inconvenienced by other people suffering from the results of the nation's favourite drug of choice.

anyway - say what you want about the armlock - it seemed to concentrate his attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:46 PM

""an obviously incapacitated prisoner""

Possibly incapacitated Jim. Please don't insult our intelligence by telling us you are the only person in the Western World who has never seen or heard of a prisoner resisting by refusing to stand.

An equally possible explanation, but that wouldn't suit your anti-authority agenda, so you ignore it.

Until you can present a semblance of balanced thought and speech you would be well advised to keep that mouth closed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:48 PM

So, can we say, it all comes down to Megan's post? Each case tried on it's own merits.

And, can we stop taking snippets of videos out of context? (Please read my first post.) People who weren't there MAY not know the whole story.

My view is this... police are human and they don't want to face physical harm but they are willing to do so to protect the public from criminals and violence. That is WHY we have police. If SOME police abuse their power, take em out. But, as Megan said, don't take em all out... who will protect the public?

I can't see how anyone can argue against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:39 PM

Meanwhile in Georgia, USA:

http://snipr.com/23hgf3w

Get that? The force in question says kicking pregnant women in the stomach is within their guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:44 PM

Yeah, I got it. He will be punished, I assume. That doesn't mean all police are bad apples. That's Megan's point. A part of my point is, we don't know exactly what happened in any particular case. That's why we have a judicial system and not mob rule. Hanging parties are, hopefully, a thing of the past.

In any case, this thread is on a spiral to... gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:00 PM

Personally, I'd give them a medal for doing a job I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

I really don't get it. You guys - you all sleep sound in your beds because you know these guys protect your homes and property.

Its a shit job. Like rat catching - but someone's got to do it. They obviously are constantly in contact with the kind of people that the rest of us cross the road to avoid.

Show a bit of gratitude for godsake.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:28 AM

"it seemed to concentrate his attention."
Yeah sure - I wonder how many times that one has been used throughout history - along with "he accidently fell down stairs!!"
"Show a bit of gratitude for godsake."
These people - don't know how many of them there are - are a disgrace to their uniform and they shame those of their collegues who don't behave the way they do.
I saw some of the behaviour up close and ugly and was subject to it myself a couple of times because of the people we chose to work with.
Perhaps you might ask Stephen Lawrence's parents to "Show a bit of gratitude"(or was the Macpherson report, which found them, as an organisation, "institutionally racist" a work of fiction) a situation which hasn't changed radically over the last 20 years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/06/stephen-lawrence-verdict-police-racism
Please don't insult our intelligence, as the man just said.
"An equally possible explanation"
There is no explanation for twisting a man's arm up his back until he screams in agony; nor is there one for a station full of police ignoring those screams (real or feigned) - transfer the situation to a school or a hospital - or any workplace, and tell us that nobody would take notice there.
I understand that the enquiry into the incident found those concerned guilty (and administered a slap on the wrist in the shape of £100 in compenstion to the victim, who intends to pursue a claim for back injury) - "Their attack was condemned as a form of torture by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC)".
Was that a work of fiction too?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:31 AM

Racism and all kinds of predjudice is always with us. And of course its not to be tolerated.

But aren't you being predjudiced.

After all we are only seeing the closing chapter of a story which can only have started with one of the below

1) someone using threatening and abusive behaviour
2) someone assulting someone else
3) destroying someone else's property
4) getting behind the wheel of a car and lilling , injuring, and endangering other people

You do that stuff, you deserve a bad back!

Policemen and their families go through watching their men and womenfolk go out every night knowing they willl be abused, spat at, threatened with knives and bottles (by gentlemen and ladies like theone in the film) possibbly shot at, possibly killed.

A couple of policeladies did a little talk at one of the schools I was doing supply at. I was horrified by what was the condition of their service. they had two unforms - one hangingh in the shed - the onethey used when shepherding afootball crowd - always soaked in spit. then off to the cleaners.

They constantly had to be changing their phone numbers. People harassed and attacked their dogs and their children - just matters of course.

Rather like teaching - I wouldn't give a moments consideration to any committee - who had never done the job at the sharp end and said they knew what they were talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:13 AM

Al, this really is not on. I've no idea who the guy was or what his behaviour was prior to the arm twisting, or even why he was arrested. What I do know is that these matters are irrelevant to the present issue. The police are trained, and paid, to apply professional standards under all circumstances and to uphold the law. They are not paid or trained to illegally virtually wrench a suspect's arm off. And in case you had forgotten, all the guy did was ask for a chair.

What's more, over and above the offence he was arrested for, if his behaviour during arrest and detention consituted further breaches of the law, then thoe further breaches should have been dealt with as part of due process. This was an act of blatant brutality, nothing more and nothing less.

I've never been to a football match in my life, but I'm well aware that spitting at someone is an offence. I have though been on a great many demonstrations in my life. I have never seen anyone spit at a police officer, but I can tell you now that anyone so doing would be arrested on the spot and charged with assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:31 AM

"But aren't you being predjudiced."
And aren't you being somewhat blinkered about all this.
Wot Owen just said - none of what you have cited has the slightest to do with the matter in hand, a station sergeant torturing a suspect THERE FOR THE WORLD TO SEE AND ACCEPTED BY THE (presumably) IN-HOUSE ENQUIRY INTO THE AFFAIR (or did they fit their buddies up - which opens up a whole new can of worms).
Teachers have a hard job in today's education system - sometimes just as difficult as that of the police - would that justify one of them kicking the shit out of an unruly pupil?
Can't help but notice that the apologists here have carefully skated around all the other cases of police behaviour presented here.
How far does one of these thugs have to go to draw even a "tut-tut" out of you fellers?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:43 AM

""How far does one of these thugs have to go to draw even a "tut-tut" out of you fellers?""

Just because we don't all shriek our hatred of all authority (and specifically any British law enforcement or military) from the rooftops, don't assume that we don't find abuse totally unacceptable and want abusers removed from their posts.

It's more the case that we can't make ourselves heard over the police bashing rants which have become your trademark.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:11 AM

"Just because we don't all shriek our hatred of all authority"
Nobody does they - but there are signs of kneejerk (sometimes to the point of hysteria) from some here whenever the establishment is challenged in any way - my "know-it-all friend"
Police - bashing rants - I suppose I'm wasing my time again to ask for examples!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:14 AM

Nobody that I'm aware of is indulging in police bashing rants on this thread. As I've said once already, I, and I presume most other contributors to this thread, am not looking to tar the entire police force with the one brush.

I am though extremely concerned at the behaviour of two members of the police in this instance and any others like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:48 AM

Well I'm not. What do you think police work is.....Inspector Morse doing crosswords, Sherlock and his magnifying glass?

The scene is similar to any you could see in any police station from Beijing to Bognor - every saturday night.

The guy has indulged in bad, possibly dangerous behaviour. perhaps he has even uttered racist comments. not just the copsthat do that, you know.

The phone calls are lining up - the switchboard is jammed with members of the public whining that the police are doing nothing about this idiots mates -who are doing the same stuff a hundred yards further down the road. And now this guy is dragging the process out by dicking about, and stopping them getting on with their work.

Meanwhile th rapes, domestics, murders, robberies goes on - and as luck would have it there are no members of the dogooder commission there to sort any of it out. It comes down to the much maligned copper.

Worth noting that the Yorkshire Ripper was only detained against the objections of his last intended victim - who was moaning about police brutality.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 11:21 AM

Anything that anyone can say about this subject, positive or negative, is absolutely true in some circumstances...while not true in others.

So you're all right...part of the time. And you're all "wrong"...if you simply insist on objecting to what another one is focusing on, because it isn't what you want to focus on.

And you're wasting your time fighting over it.

And alienating each other.

And probably putting yourselves in a pretty bad mood by doing so.

What will this gain you?

I think that's all I really need to say on this thread. I could say it about any number of other contentious threads here. It's one great big waste of your time, folks. In a month you'll have forgotten about it, and you'll be bickering about something else, I expect. It could be called the "arguing addiction". Maybe someone should start a new 12-step program (AAA) to help people get over it.

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:46 PM

Actually the police do a jolly fine job considering all the limitations placed upon them by politically correct idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:49 PM

This is magic. So the desk sergeant is having a bad night and he's feeling overrun, and that gives him the right to twist some poor buggar's arm off? I must remember that the next time I'm having a bad day, or night.

"The guy has indulged in bad, possibly dangerous behaviour. perhaps he has even uttered racist comments........."

I don't know how many times I have to say this. What the guy has or hasn't done has no bearing on the way he was treated. The appropriate punishment for bad behaviour, racist comments or whatever is up to the courts to decide. Have you never heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty"?. Or would you prefer to live in the sort of banana republic where such behaviour by the forces of law and order is considered acceptable?

BTW. His arm wasn't twisted up his back because of what he had done outside. It was twisted up his back because the guy didn't feel well, and refused to co-operate until he was given a chair. What the hell was wrong with giving him a chair, for God's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:44 PM

The arm at no time becomes detached from his body.....

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:32 PM

Well done Mr Whittle, you have moved from the fatuous to the puerile in a single bound. You appear to be unable to recognise that not only might a policeman break the law but that the police service might wrongly condone such behaviour. I have had reason to be grateful to the police in the past but that does not require me to believe that they can do whatever they like because they have got such a tough job, anymore than a doctor should be allowed to get away with negligence. Everyone who works for the police does so voluntarily, if the job was so awful the rate of resignations would be extremely high - my understanding is that that is not the case. Most of the policemen and women that I met in the course of my career and my work with Victim Support loved their job. I can see no evidence of police bashing on this thread - but I can see you have your head firmly in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:41 PM

Its called dedication. A belief that you can make a difference by doing an important job. Not perfectly, but as well as you can manage to do it.

Its that sort of puerile idealism that keeps the boat of scociety afloat - despite eejits like yourself facilitating and excusing the deranged loonies kicking holes in the hull of our fragile craft.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:27 AM

I watched the video and saw and heard absolutely nothing to justify the vicious armlock. From the very start, the police attitude was overbearing and inapproprIate - iT started "WHO TOLD YOU YOU COULD SIT DOWN".

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:25 AM

Yes, but you weren't there. Richard. Neither was I. These guys do this stuff for a living and they have to know when they are being buggered about, and you can bet your life - they know what that can develop into. They're probably in a better place to judge than you and me. Work in these situations and you get a certain expertise at sussing people out.

Me and you, we'd have given him a chair let him pretend to be unconscious and get buggered about from arseholes to breakfast time.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:40 AM

I would never describe idealism as puerile. I have no doubt that many police officers have a selfless desire to serve their communities. My problem with the position taken by Mr Whittle is that he appears to believe that anyone taken into a police station should give up all claim to any human rights.
The role of the police is to protect our civilised society, to suggest that in pursuing that end they should behave in an uncivilised way seems bizarre.
As an aside, calling posters who disagree with you eejit and the like simply calls into question your ability to debate in an adult (i.e. non puerile) manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:42 AM

When you consider the uncivilised scum the police are required to deal with from time to time!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stu
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:10 AM

"When you consider the uncivilised scum the police are required to deal with from time to time!!!"

Good point, but dealing with thieving and corrupt politicians, amoral journalists and members of the Met was something they signed up for when they took the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:35 AM

Please ...Alan, or Al...Mr Whittle sounds like I work in a bank.

I don't think you should lose any rights when you go into a police station. I think the cops in that video had a very clear idea of what they were dealing with. I'm not sure that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:30 AM

"when you consider the uncivilised scum the police have to deal with from time to time"

Yes, and surely the point is that no one should allow themselves to be dragged down to the level of those scum by behaving in the same way as they do. I want to believe that our police are better than that. As I said in an earlier post my experience with Victim Support led me into contact with a lot of police officers and, although I would not wish to claim to speak for them, My guess is that most of them would condemn this behaviour. Police are trained to deal with recalcitrant and violent people, what we saw on the video was just lazy and let down the police service as whole. This was acknowledged by a spokesman from Durham Constabulary last Friday. I am simply agreeing with that senior policeman, who I suspect knows better than you or I Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:56 AM

Then I hope that the officers responsible were disciplined as appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 May 12 - 10:25 AM

According to the news media they weren't. Fined and ordered to pay compensation and that was it. They should have ben thrown off the force and they weren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Chufty
Date: 14 May 12 - 10:41 AM

Whether or not the arm hold was justifiable in the circumstances;
should we not be equally concerned that serving police officers
are so clearly verging on the obese and unfit ?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:05 AM

""Yes, and surely the point is that no one should allow themselves to be dragged down to the level of those scum by behaving in the same way as they do.""

It's not all that long ago that a young, idealistic, W.P.C. tried to make a calm and gentle arrest of a suspect.

Her family are still grieving for her death, and will be for the rest of their lives.

Her killer will be walking the streets again in just a few more years.

Idealism is great, but armlocks prevent more damage.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:49 AM

Don,

I presume you are referring to an actual incident, and one which involved the death of a police officer in the course of trying to make an arrest. If so, nobody is denying the right of the police to take defensive action.

However, the matter under discussion took place in a police station. The man must have been unarmed because, if he had been carrying a weapon, it would have been taken from him at the scene of the crime. Ipso facto, neither the arm breaking desk sergeant, nor his colleagues, were in any danger from this suspect whatsoever. The desk sergeant in question behaved the way that he did out of sheer brutality, and because he was too lazy to do his job in accordance with the prescribed procedure.

BTW 1., the suspect is aged 48 and owns a DIY store. He doesn't sound your typical "I'm here for trouble" scallywag to me.

BTW 2. Before you start sounding off about police being killed in the line of duty, you might want to consider the following.

Some years ago, a man in Liverpool lost it completely. He began waving an admittedly very nasty looking sword and mouthing off to no-one in particular. A sizeable contingent of armed police surrounded this guy and, on the orders of a superior officer, they shot him dead.

This happened in a deserted non-residential part of Liverpool (I know it extremely well) where there is no-one living for at least half a mile in any direction. Hence there was no danger to anyone passing by.

The officer's comment? "I didn't want my men exposed to any danger". Jesus suffering Christ. What are they paid for?

Was this officer saying that a contingent of armed, and armoured, police couldn't have taken down one lone nutter without killing him? If they had to shoot, couldn't they at least have shot him in the leg? That would have disabled him very effectively, with no danger being posed to the police, or to non-existent passers by.

BTW 3? Oh yes, Ian Tomlinson. Newspaper seller who was killed by the police because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I refuse point blank to class all police as villains, thugs and murderers, just I refuse to condemn all Muslims because of the actions of a handful of Asian paedophiles in Rochdale.

Nonetheless, irrespective of how big a minority the rotten apples in the police barrel may be, they still make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 12:42 PM

Contrary to popular belief , there is no way of shooting someone witha firearm and being completely sure it will not kill them. Catching a bullet is very traumatic. Shooting someone in the leg is a great way to kill them - there is a big artery in the leg. If that disintegrates, you won't be around too long.

people shot with a firearm are almost certain to be very ill afterwards

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:00 PM

Me too Owen, but I usually want to know more about what led to such events before jumping in with a judgement, just as you would want to know more before judging the prisoner.

Don T.

PS.

1. Ian Tomlinson was not murdered, he was pushed over (wrong I know, but no intent to do serious harm, let alone kill) and I'm sure the officer concerned regrets having done that.

2. The young WPC didn't get the chance to defend herself precisely because she went in too soft. Had she flattened the subject, handcuffed him, and then cautioned him, he would have had no chance to stab her to death. Her name was W.P.C. Nina McKay.

3. Having seen at first hand the damage a sword can do (it's not like the movies), I would consider armed intervention amply justified in the case you cited.

Police officers are not paid to wantonly risk life and limb, of themselves or any member of the public, and the officer who gave the order will have given due consideration to all the circumstances. Had a member of the public, or an officer, been killed or seriously injured, he would have had to justify his inaction.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:01 PM

I think we get the picture.


You're on the side of the bloke waving a samurai sword around, or collapsing all over the police statio (having done something serious enough to get arrested).

personally, I side with the poor sod who has somehow to curtail their activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:31 PM

I'm not on the side of the bloke with the sword (samurai sword? who said anything about it being a samurai sword?). I merely want to see justice and fair play. And a bunch of professional police officers could have taken one lone nutter down without killing him.

Ian Tomlinson murdered? The word I used was killed, and I stand by that. To be precise, he got caught up in a demonstration in which he had no part, when he was hit by a baton and knocked to the ground. That is not murder, although I think it could be justifiably called manslaughter.

Does PC Simon Harwood regret the incident? Very likely. His trial comes up next month.

"Had she flattened the subject, handcuffed him, and then cautioned him...." I would have described that as fairly normal police procedure when handling a dangerous suspect; EG, the man with the sword in the non-residential area of Liverpool. But once the suspect has been suitably restrained, that should be an end.

Look, nobody expects the police to lay their lives on the line, especially when they're dealing with vicious and violent individuals. But there are procedures and there is thuggery. PC Harwood was in no danger from Ian Tomlinson and Sergeant Harvey was in no danger from David Healer.

But it turns out from tonight's Northern Echo that David Healer was in danger from Sergeant Harvey. It turns out in fact that Healer is an angina sufferer. Was Harvey aware of this before he carried out this brutal assault? I suspect he was. Listen to the audio right after Healer's arm doesn't quite snap off.

BTW. someone asked earlier on whether either of the officers involved were disciplined for this act of torture, as the Independent Police Complaints Commission described. Apparently not. They have merely been transferred to "other duties" within the same police force.

I do not like thugs, in uniform or out of it. And I do not expect trained police officers to act like thugs, especially when they are dealing with a sick individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:48 AM

One aspect of this incident I have not seen mentioned or addressed in this thread:

1: Incident took place inside a Police Station.

2: The incident was covered by the CCTV system inside the Police Station.

3: Logical question would be - Who "leaked" the recording?? - Must have been someone with access - Most likely a Police Officer who did not go along with what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:35 AM

"Had she flattened the subject, handcuffed him, and then cautioned him...." I would have described that as fairly normal police procedure when handling a dangerous suspect; EG, the man with the sword in the non-residential area of Liverpool. But once the suspect has been suitably restrained, that should be an end."

(My emboldening and underlining there)

So Owen, you're clearly an expert in un-armed combat - how, precisely, would an un-armed policeman "take down" (whatever the fuck that means) a mentally-unstable and out-of-control man who is wielding a sword, without himself becoming a casualty or, worse, a murder statistic?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:37 AM

'Who "leaked" the recording?? -'

I don't know. But I hope he wakes up one morning with the drunk pissing in his ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:37 AM

"Most likely a Police Officer who did not go along with what happened."
Or one who wanted to make a few quid from the local press.
Or maybe a drinking chum of 'Rupe the Scoop' - let's not forget the boys in blue at the top of the tree.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/28/deaths-in-police-custody
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:32 AM

I think that I must be missing something here. The thread began about the behaviour of some police officers mistreating an unarmed man in a police station. Now it seems that some people find this analogous to dealing with maniacs armed with guns or swords.
I would not presume to comment on how such dangerous people should be dealt with and I would not be inclined to question police action if such a person ended up dead or seriously wounded as a result of the police having to control him or her.
The two situations are not analogous. One has to do with an abuse of power by the police the other relates to the need for the police to sometimes HAVING to use extreme methods to deal with a situation. If we are, as I hope we are, a civilised society then we must ensure that the vast majority of decent police officers are not let down or undermined by a few who don't deserve to wear the uniform.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:09 AM

Brendan, you're absolutely right, and my apologies for indulging in thread drift.

Irrespective of what happened outside, or what happened elsewhere under different circumstances, this man was ill and defenceless and was offering no threat to anyone in that station. Yet he was the victim of a savage, brutal and unprovoked attack. What's more(Big Al Whittle) there is no reason to suppose that he was even drunk.

That is it in a nutshell, except that the police are expected to abide by the law, not to break it whenever they think they can get away with it.

We need a police force without a doubt; one whose members do their jobs thoroughly, honestly, and without torturing suspects. If Sergeant Harvey and his ilk are all that stand between us and chaos, God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,chufty
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:26 AM

The arm lock lasts about a short 20 seconds.
Now watch the video with sound switched off.
Without the emotive sound of blood curdling screams of agony
[genuine, or excessive pretence ????: debatable in absence of known facts of the situation]
does it really look as though the fat desk cop is seriously over reacting in malicious anger ?

You'll see countless disruptive uncooperative men & women being similarly restrained
for the safety of the public as much as for their own benefit
in every town high street thoughout the UK every weekend of the year.

Gotta try to remain objective, even if dislike of police authority is a standard default position.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:54 AM

"You'll see countless disruptive uncooperative men & women...."
So if the result of the POLICE IN-HOUSE ENQUIRY, which accepted that the action could be described as torture, is to be accepted, they did fit up those involved, possibly as a public relations move?
Why are people attempting to debunk the evidence of the film, which has been damned by the official enquiry?
.
"does it really look as though the fat desk cop is seriously over reacting in malicious anger ?"
No it doesn't - it looks like a routine event that he has handled many times - in fact, like something that could, and does happen "in every town high street thoughout the UK every weekend of the year"
Even moreso when you see that nobody is taking a blind bit of notice of the screams.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:59 AM

Chufty. That's what's worrying. He doesn't. He looks to me as he does this all the time and regards it as a perfectly normal part of the interview procedure. That may have been the case in Nazi Germany. Not here, thanks very much.

"You'll see countless disruptive uncooperative men & women being similarly restrained".

Strange. I live in Liverpool, a large and in parts a pretty violent city. Moreover, as a political activist of many years standing, I have seen a lot of arrests being carried out. I have seen arrestees being constrained in armlocks. I have never seen anyone have their arm wrenched up their back like that before.

And if the aim wasn't to inflict torture, (IE severe pain administered as a means of punishment, revenge, forcing information or a confession, or simply as an act of cruelty), why was the armlock applied? The guy asked for a chair after telling this pair that he was ill. When he was denied one he sat down on a ledge. He could perfectly well have given the desk sergeant his personal details from there.

Dislike of police authority? Not me brother. I'm quite happy with clearly demarcated police authority. But gratuitous brutality like this does not conform with any British police code I ever heard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 09:41 AM

okay Owen - in your ear, be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 May 12 - 02:16 AM

Canada or Harper's police state's shame:
Amputee

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 12 - 06:12 AM

Owen is exactly right.

May I also mention Liddle Towers - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1977/dec/12/mr-liddle-towers.

who also screamed in pain all night as he lay in a police cell dying from his injuries.

Oh, and a woman I know who has never fully regained the use of her arm after suffering a similar armlock.

And was given a good kicking - after she had been rendered helpless - by a uniformed WPC - while two burly police officers watched at the cell door.

Cell door - yes, arrested for taking a photograph that she had been given express permission to take.


We could not do without the police, and some do a good job, but look around those you actually know or actually come into contact with. Most seem to have an attitude that they enjoy wielding authority, and that they value, indeed are excited by, physical force.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 12 - 08:25 AM

Or Blair Peach
Jim Carroll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blair_Peach

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 12 - 01:45 PM

The G 8 conference is being held at Camp David, where it will be free of the kooks, anarchists and hoodlums who blanket the police with derogatory labels (see Megan, far above),

Some police are being subject to investigation for their actions in Toronto at the G20, but the TV news showed ample evidence of hoodlums smashing windows, trashing cars and running wild.
Obviously some misguided demonstrators, but who were otherwise free of destructive actions, will be rounded up with the criminally active. Unfortunate, but unavoidable.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 12 - 07:06 PM

Indeed, Q. Opportunists who know the police are stretched thin and therefore take a chance. As you said, sad but true.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 12 - 06:53 PM

""So Owen, you're clearly an expert in un-armed combat - how, precisely, would an un-armed policeman "take down" (whatever the fuck that means) a mentally-unstable and out-of-control man who is wielding a sword, without himself becoming a casualty or, worse, a murder statistic? ""

I think Owen should offer to show the police force exactly how he handles such situations next time a loony starts waving a machete about.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 12 - 07:58 PM

Well actually if he has anything to contribute, he should tell the police before the next incident.

The thing is - its all negative bollocks. he's pissed off that people didn't get dismissed from their jobs for doing the best they could in difficult circumstances. A tough shitty job most of us wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Theres so many avenues for complete wankers in our society. Artist who present us with piles of dogshit; educational philosophers who've never worked in a classroom; tax inspectors who only inspect the tax returns of the very poor.

The policing of the drunken and the bad is a field of endeavour where talking shit counts for very little . Such people have to be faced down and controlled. If a cop talks to you as though   you might be a threat - its probably cos he's met someone like you that was a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 20 May 12 - 04:34 PM

I've been away for the past few days and have only just seen this last pair of postings.

The tone, Al Whittle's in particular is extremely offensive. If he can't get by without using terms like wanker and negative ballocks then I seriously suggest he should pack it in.

BTW., Al Whittle, Don T. and one or two others. How much experience do you have of police operating procedures?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 May 12 - 08:03 PM

Can't speak for Al, but in my case, as much experience as you can get from having three cousins in completely separate forces (Lincoln, Norfolk and South Yorkshire), plus five friends, two in the MET and three in Middlesex, Surrey and Kent County forces.

Your experience??...........One video?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 May 12 - 08:10 PM

With reference to Al's last comment:- ""If a cop talks to you as though   you might be a threat - its probably cos he's met someone like you that was a threat."".

If you doubt the veracity of that statement, you should really have a chat with my cousin Phil, and have a good look at the eighteen inch scar across his torso, put there by the five foot two inch girlfriend of a man he was arresting for assaulting her.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 12 - 08:15 PM

My father was a cop for twenty five years - we lived in a police house, with the door painted blue. the other policemen were in and out of the house.   the talk was generally of police work.

I got used to other people being snotty and ill informed about my father's work. Also I got used to the need to insult and trivial bollocks being the substance of most complaints.

My house was burgled twice and I received on both occasions, good treatment from the police who dealt with me - and caught the perpetrators on both occasions.

I wasn't aware I had insulted you - unless you are a tax inspector specialising in tormenting the poor, an artist working in the medium of dogshit, or an expert on education who has never worked in a classroom. If you are, I suppose you are to be congratulated at finding an easier way of earning a living than working as a policeman.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 12 - 09:41 PM

I would like to add that, as far I can make out - Don is a bit of a right wing git.

However we seem to have arrived at something we can agree with.

namely that cops have a shitty job. Most of 'em come from the lower classes. probably , they're on our side, Miners strikes excluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:59 AM

The police job can be demanding. Lower ranks are not that well paid. They take risks with their lives sometimes.

None of that justifies brutality to those in their custody.

And as for "If a cop talks to you as though you might be a threat - it's probably 'cos he's met someone like you that was a threat" - a pretty classic definition of prejudice.

Also, nothing in it alters my perception that most of those going into police work enjoy wielding authority, they like the feeling of power that it gives them. A niece of mine recently married a policeman and the police at the wedding seemed very "tough bloke" in ethos. That includes the policewomen there too!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:35 AM

Enjoyment doesn't come into it Richard. One of the best films about being a lawman Kevin Costner's Wyatt earp. You have to be a deliberate man or woman. people have to sense that. Otherwise someone will try to take over the situation - and by losing control of the situation, you can put your own and other peoples lives at risk.

Your man in the police station is a good case in point. The cops involved would have arrested him, spoke with him, asked him to go home and stop being a public nuisance or danger, atempted to reason with him - all before that incident you see. Mostly out of self interest - an actual aarest involves buggering about with forms and writing statements - and court appearances, with some smart arse and usually sober solicitor trying to discredit your words. they would have a good appreciation of the situation - better that Owen's - believe you me.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:41 AM

The usual line of defence is that despite seven other convictions that year, he's 'of previous good character' but is 'in a depressed state' due to his budgerigar dying five years ago.

You're a lawyer - perhaps you've tried that line yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:57 AM

Richard, you could sing that if you had an air to it. I'm not saying police work isn't shitty. I'm not saying that there aren't occasions when they lay their lives on their line. And I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that all coppers are bastards. And just now and again I get the feeling that that the law is the only thing which stands between us and barbarism.

That, by the way, comes from someone who has faced the law on more pickets, marches, demonstrations and protests than anyone could reasonably shake a stick at.

But nothing, nothing, justifies wrenching the arm of an unco-operative suspect in the way that Sergeant Harvey did; and one who was suffering from angina at that.

This is not Nazi Germany. It is not Stalinist Russia. And it is not Saddam Hussein's Iraq. In case the Big Als and Don Ts of this world have forgotten, Britain is a democracy, where the rights of the individual have been established in law over many centuries. That includes the right of suspects to be questioned without being tortured.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:27 AM

Al Whittle. "The cops involved would have arrested him, spoke with him, asked him to go home and stop being a public nuisance or danger, atempted to reason with him - all before that incident you see."

That's pretty perspicacious isn't it? We don't even know what the man was arrested for, or what his behaviour was like before he entered the station. AAMOF it looked to me as though he'd been arrested on suspicion of handling drugs or stolen goods or something similar. (Note the blue plastic bags which the sergeant's oppo was counting before he assisted the said Sergeant in his relentless search for the truth.)

However:-

I have googled the name of David Healer several times and the only results I have been able to come up with relate to the trial of Sergeant Harvey and his oppo. Ipso facto, either:-

the case never got to court or,

the offence which Mr Healer was charged with was so trivial, even the neighbourhood press didn't consider it worth reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:57 AM

obviously he was of previous good character and in a depressed state about something......

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:19 AM

Al, if you're going to participate in this thread please don't trivialise it by making smart arsed remarks. Precisely where did I or anybody else speculate on his character or state of mind, or what his solicitor might or might not have said?

These things are totally irrelevant to the matter under discussion; namely that David Healer was illegally tortured at the poice station while his personal details were being noted.

Perhaps your father treated suspects in the same way? If so then I suggest he was not fit to be a member of the police force.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:41 AM

yes I can see that you're not a smart arse,Owen

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:46 AM

I'm sorry Al, I asked a serious question. You seem very interested in defending police brutality and you say that your father spent 25 years in the force. I am therefore obliged to wonder if your father ever behaved in a similar manner to Sergeant Harvey.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 08:16 AM

no idea, but I've seen him walk into a situation where two drunks were knocking seven shades of shit out of each other in broad daylight in the town centre - surrounded by a a crowd of jeering idiots - and the whole lot just went quiet, when he arrived on the scene, and it was the end of the fight. I heard whispers in the crowd - Its Eric Whittle.

I daresay it wouldn't have commanded your respect Owen , but the town was grateful to him that day - people with kids who didn't want them witnessing that sort of stuff.

I don't suppose he commanded that sort of respect from those sort of people for his enlightened views on the human rights of public nuisances.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 12 - 09:07 AM

Ah - some people don't deserve justice, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 12 - 09:58 AM

""And as for "If a cop talks to you as though you might be a threat - it's probably 'cos he's met someone like you that was a threat" - a pretty classic definition of prejudice.""

As a lawyer, whose stock in trade is, or should be the correct use of words, you really need to check up and learn the difference between "CAUTION" (for self preservation) and "PREJUDICE".

An unarmed police officer who wishes to live out his natural lifespan had damn well better treat everybody as a potential threat.

That is "EVERYBODY" Richard, so perhaps you would like to explain where exactly that is prejudice?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:14 AM

Hey, in the 30's in Berlin, the storm troopers were just doing their jobs. If they would have just separated the bad apples from the rest, things would be different.

You believe that and I have a bridge for sale.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:42 AM

The cops are out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 12 - 12:15 PM

New York cops have had Israeli training in crowd control techniques except it is the cops, themselves that are out of control all over the country.

Paranoia runs rampant, today.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 May 12 - 12:38 PM

Stringsinger seems to have an "out-of-control" prejudice against those who defend against the mindless and criminal in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 12 - 01:48 PM

There is a very simple straightforward way to avoid being manhandled by police.

COOPERATE!

Police will hold a suspect's arms to prevent him reaching into pocket or waistband, and also prevent him breaking away from control. That might be a reason for the arm hold in the video for all any of us (not having seen what led up to that moment) know to the contrary.

It might also be a couple of right bastards treating a prisoner abominably, which would have been less likely if he had been cooperating.

It might also be a prisoner simulating an angina attack (and please don't tell me you've never heard of that happening) to make it more difficult for police to process him.

Isn't it strange that some of the same people who were banging on about the evils of making assumptions in the George Zimmerman case are now so ready to jump in and do the same where cops are in the firing line?

Bottom line?.......None of us knows the full story!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 May 12 - 02:19 PM

Don. The reason for the armlock is blatantly obvious from the video. The prisoner claimed he was ill and needed a chair and wouldn't supply his personal details until he got a chair. The desk sergeant refused to give him one until he'd noted the prisoner's personal details.

Stalemate.

How does Sergeant Harvey resolve this difficult situation? Simple. He gets up from his own seat, where I'm sure he is very comfortable, wrenches the guy's arm up his back so hard that the victim howls in agony, receives an assurance of co-operation and then sits down and resumes the task of form completeion as though nothing had happened.

Sergeant Harvey's action was not a necessary strategy to control a difficult prisoner. It was brutal cold blooded torture and the magistrates bench, who were doubtless thoroughly apprised of all that had led up to this incident, found Sergeant Harvey and his civilian assistant guilty of the same.

Do you know what I don't think? I don't think this was an isolated incident. I think that Sergeant Harvey, and a lot more of his ilk, regularly use such techniques because they are too lazy or too callous or too stupid to adhere to properly laid down procedures. The only difference here is that Sergeant Harvey ended up with his extremely unpleasant visage slapped across every regional and local newspaper in the north-east.

All because he couldn't be bothered to give an ailing suspect a chair.

Dixon of Dock Green must be spinning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 02:53 PM

Well if they are your thoughts on the matter Owen. I suppose we must respect them - give them the same deference - that you give to our thoughts on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:06 PM

Don, go back and read. The postulate was not that the police needed to be wary of all. It was that the police are wary of YOU because they met someone like you before. That's not judging you, it's assuming that you are like that other person - be he a Jew, or an Afro-Caribbean, or an Irishman.

Al, watch the video and hunt down some reports of the trial.

Both of you, go to a gathering where there are police at play - it's horrifying.

Incidentally, I once was invited to an Irish republican concert - and warned in advance to stand for the IRA anthem (the name of which escapes me) and not to be heard talking in RP or I would not get out alive. I heard the signer's husband say (to my very party, at my very table) "She was singing flat tonight. I'll take her home and give her a good beating and it won't happen again". Tell me Don, were your family antecedents like that and should I assume that I must not talk to any Irishman or be killed?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:31 PM

""Tell me Don, were your family antecedents like that and should I assume that I must not talk to any Irishman or be killed?""

That isn't worthy of a mentally deranged five year old Mr Bridge, and I see no purpose in treating any of your further posts with the least respect.

I was born in England, of Irish antecedents, none of whom, to my knowledge, had anything to do with the IRA, or indeed any sympathy for them. In fact I have been told that my grandfather, who was a ganger on the roads, once kicked an IRA fundraiser two hundred yards down the road. They never called again.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:57 PM

""Don, go back and read. The postulate was not that the police needed to be wary of all. It was that the police are wary of YOU because they met someone like you before. That's not judging you, it's assuming that you are like that other person - be he a Jew, or an Afro-Caribbean, or an Irishman.""

YOU go back and read!!

"ANYBODY" means humanoid, one head, two arms, two legs, capable of speech and (in some cases at least) rational thought.

It is irrespective of size, gender, sexual orientation, skin colour, nationality and disability.

It refers specifically to any human being who may have a knife, a gun, a syringe, or simply saliva loaded with HIV virus.

I'd love to see you out with police at chucking out time with nothing but your common sense and caution for defence.

I worked as a cabbie for over ten years and saw what cops face from drunks and I can tell you that it doesn't matter if they are black or white, scruffy or suited and booted. A cop cannot trust anybody if he wants to stay in one piece.

If you don't understand that you haven't been paying attention.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:48 PM

Well its not just cops, is it? Lets face its open season on any poor sod who has one of the people jobs - teachers, nurses - they're all supposed to assert their authoity by the magic of their personality. And theres always some dimwit doogooder....organising the opposition and cheering it on.

Don't need to look at what the those robed in justice have come up with.

I've seen too much of it as a teacher. Seen a guy put on child offenders register because he shouted at a little sod who was setting off a fire extinguisher. The child's representative got him to admit he was trying to intimidate the kid by shouting at him. A career buggered up - for that.

Seen a kid who went in for the foulest language and murderous assaults forgiven - because she had reacted badly to chocolate, which she wasn't used to.

there are warnings on every wall of our local hospital begging people not to assault the nurses - because they might get in trouble. Every nurse you talk to has some experience of it.

What is it about you people that can't realise some respect is due to people who are entrusted with authority.

Every bugger with a talent for abuse gets the thumbs up, whilst everybody trying to assert authority has to have their actions scrutinised by eejits who don't know in which direction farts generally go.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:02 AM

"someone like you that was a threat"

That's not the same as "anyone is a threat".

It's typecasting people because they look the same.

If I don't need to typecast one Irishman as like another - why should it be right for the policemen to typecast one person with a given characteristic as like another?

You're in a cleft stick Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:06 AM

'Do you know what I don't think? I don't think this was an isolated incident. I think that Sergeant Harvey, and a lot more of his ilk, regularly use such techniques because they are too lazy or too callous or too stupid to adhere to properly laid down procedures. The only difference here is that Sergeant Harvey ended up with his extremely unpleasant visage slapped across every regional and local newspaper in the north-east.'

come on Richard, who's doing the typecasting here? Already, I've had to listen to vilest suggestion about my father - whom this geezer Owen never met.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:09 AM

Er - Al - I didn't say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:39 AM

of course you didn't Richard . You are a good egg. Like all nice people (such as myself) you are politically slightly to the left of Pol Pot.

however this Woodson man! quelle horreur! he reminds me of the OFSET inspector who drove my boss to lose the sight of one of his eyes, by raising his blood pressure with a bloody schools inspection.

What gives the right of these people to go round terrorising everyone doing some sort of a job. if you've worked as a solicitor, you must know the pressure in these sorts of situations.

I'm not unsympathetic - got angina myself. But prosecuting the cops - that is massive overreaction - the guy was almost certainly pissing them about - the onset of angina doesn't generally coincide the cops asking your address. If only life were that simple. I'd have faked a heart attack before my A levels.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:55 AM

""If I don't need to typecast one Irishman as like another - why should it be right for the policemen to typecast one person with a given characteristic as like another?

You're in a cleft stick Don.""

And you are chopping logic in a feeble attempt to avoid admitting that a cop must, as a matter of self preservation, treat every human being who confronts him as a potential threat to life and limb.

His experience instils in him that tendency because he has indeed met someone like that person, who WAS a threat.

If you are unable to comprehend that an apparently harmless person of any ethnicity, sexuality, colour, or faith can, in an instant become a killer, then I would suggest you need a police escort when you attend court.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 12 - 05:01 AM

""Er - Al - I didn't say that.""

No, you didn't.

You contented yourself with casting a completely unwarranted slur on my parentage instead.

Al, you have it wrong! Far from a good egg, he is much of a kind with your nemesis, but of course he tends to use his malicious streak on those who hold different political opinions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:21 AM

Have any of you good people ever watched programmes like "Brit Cops" and it's ilk. I have to confess to being astounded at times by the actions of the police who know they are being filmed. I understand that the Police have, at times, a very difficult job to do, that they have, at times, to deal with very difficult and sometimes dangerous people and situations. However I am often appalled at the behaviour of the Police in these programmes. As for the instance which started this thread would it have been possible to place the man in a cell and left him there until he wanted to co-operate, don't know myself only asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 12 - 08:39 AM

Woodson - "Do you know what I don't think? I don't think this was an isolated incident. I think that Sergeant Harvey, and a lot more of his ilk, regularly use such techniques because they are too lazy or too callous or too stupid to adhere to properly laid down procedures."

Bridge - "It's typecasting people because they look the same. If I don't need to typecast one Irishman as like another - why should it be right for the policemen to typecast one person with a given characteristic as like another?"

So typecasting Irishmen et al "because they look the same" is wrong, but typecasting police officers - who look even more the same by virtue of their wearing a uniform - is OK? Sounds like double-standards to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 May 12 - 09:30 AM

bACKWOODSMAN. Richard Bridge and I are not the same person. He has his opinions and I have mine. That they frequently coincide is possibly coincidence, or it might be that we share a similar ideology. It could even be that sometimes we are both right.

Whatever, there has been absolutely no typecasting on my part in any of the postings I have made to this thread. Indeed, I have specifically stated that I do not subscribe to the "all coppers are bastards" theory. Nor do I regard the police as all being tarred with the same brush.

I object strongly to the typecasting of all Muslims by the actions of a few terrorists or paedophiles; I reject utterly the view that anyone to the right of Ghengis Khan is beyond redemption; and the last person who tried to tell me that all black people are lazy, stupid and dishonest - He knew. He'd met one - was left with a flea in his ear the size of bactrian camel. I am therefore not prepared to countenance the idea that all police officers should be tainted by the Sergeant Harveys of this world.

However, someone remarked early on in this thread that every barrel is bound to have a few rotten apples in it (or words to that effect). The thing I'm pondering is this. If we bust the barrel wide open, how many rotten apples would we find.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 12 - 10:08 AM

"I am therefore not prepared to countenance the idea that all police officers should be tainted by the Sergeant Harveys of this world."

That's precisely what you did - "I don't think this was an isolated incident. I think that Sergeant Harvey, and a lot more of his ilk, regularly use such techniques because they are too lazy or too callous or too stupid to adhere to properly laid down procedures."

My underlining, but your words. Blatant stereotyping, and seemingly acceptable in your view, yet you (apparently) give people who stereotype muslims and black people a 'flea in their ears'.

If what you really meant was, "I think that Sergeant Harvey may have used such techniques on other occasions, and it may be that there are others who do likewise", I'd probably have to agree, but I also believe that we need to see much more than the short, one-sided clip of one incident to make the kind of blanket judgment that you've made.

And with regard to the issue of the offender 'howling in agony', most people are capable of 'howling in agony' to order - I certainly could if necessary - and without any actual pain being felt whatsoever. It's called 'taking the piss'.

I have a couple of close relatives who are police officers - one here, one in Canada - and they could regale you for hours with anecdotes about the unbelievable and outrageous behaviour towards the police of individuals and groups they come across in the course of their work. Many of them make the incident in question seem very insignificant indeed, and it seems that the most important requisite for a police officer is to have the patience of a saint.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 May 12 - 11:40 AM

Backwoodsman. I did not say that all police officers behave like Sergeant Harvey. I said there are a lot more like him in the police force. That is not stereotyping.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Concerned
Date: 22 May 12 - 12:47 PM

I have only had one close dealing with the Police, my son was arrested late at night, early the following morning two officers came to my door with one of their big red keys, fortunately I managed to answer the door before they caved it in. They came into my house with a search warrant, they were extremely abrupt with both myself and my wife, one in particular was rude to the point where I was tempted to thump him (I am not normally a violent man). I asked if they could just hold off for a few minutes while I made arrangements for my eighty six (86)year old Mother to be "fostered" out to a friend for a time, again they were extremely aggressive not allowing me to go into the room with the phone in. Eventually I managed to make arrangements for my Mother, the two Police Officers were joined by another 6 officers who searched the house, jumped to several conclusions and eventually arrested by my wife and I. We spent the remainder of the day in the cells. Eventually we were released, without charge, without apology. Needless to say I was not and remain unendeared to the Police officers in this instance, my son was later released, again without charge (his crime, a small amount of cannibis). I should point out that my wife and I are in our 50's, neither of us has ever been in any trouble with the Police, except in my wife's case a speeding ticket. Their behaviour was to my mind totally unacceptable, I realise we may have been visited by bad apples but they left a very bad taste and my respect for the Police has evaporated entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 12 - 05:09 PM

don't suppose Richard meant anything Don. My family were from Ireland as well, but I don't think English people relate to ireland or irish politics at all.

A pint of guinness and a couple of wack fol me daddy-ohs, and they all think Gerry Adams is their best mate, and they're ready to march on the GPO.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:09 PM

Dear Concerned

Either your son is a target criminal, or he is an international terrorist.

(get some weird guests here, don't we?)

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:21 PM

OH! What a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning there, Big Al! Or were you just trying to be funny?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:32 PM

Call me Sherlock! Elementary Little Hawk, old fellow! they'd be pretty bloody busy if they followed up each insignificant bust for grass with raids from the heavy mob.

I suppose its just possible his son REALLY pissed off the Chief Constable, or someone REALLY important.

Otherwise - well it strains credulity somewhat. Particularly from an anonymous source. Or maybe you just believe everything that fits in with your point of view. I do, sometimes. I think we all do.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 12 - 07:20 AM

"Backwoodsman. I did not say that all police officers behave like Sergeant Harvey. I said there are a lot more like him in the police force. That is not stereotyping."

Yes it is. From a short, one-sided video clip, you formed an opinion of an individual and assumed that the video represented his habitual behaviour, and you said that "there are a lot more like him in the police force". That is stereotyping. You have absolutely no idea of Sgt. Harvey's habitual behaviour patterns but, having made an assumption, you have then imposed those assumed behaviour patterns on an unspecified group of other officers. That is stereotyping.

If you don't understand the meaning of the word, there's little wonder you don't know when you're doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Corncerned
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:01 AM

Big Al, I have remained as a guest because, being subject by the Police to the sort of treatment we received, is not something I want to disseminate to those who may recognise me on this forum.
The events may strain your credulity but I can assure you it did happen, one reason may have been that one of his friends did have a sizeable amount of money on him, having said that it was two days before Christmas, with which he was going to do his Christmas shopping for friends and family, that was also messed up because it took him severals weeks to get his money back.
I should point out it was only one officer who was extremely obnoxious and to my mind extremely zealous and threatening, during the time they were in our house he accused my wife and I of money-laundering based, I think, on the fact we had a car registration plate in a cupboard, the car was leased to us and was parked by the house, if he had taken the trouble to note the registration number he would have seen it matched the plate in the cupboard, the man was not fit to be in the Police.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:18 AM

obviously the policeman misread the smoke signals - but it still doesn't really add up from the information supplied. Does any of the parties involved have some sort of record - is there any reason why their activities would have been of interest to the cops.

Or maybe you live in a remote village where marihuana use is very unusual. In most town centres, providing its done discretely, most cops don't react. zero tolerance, or no.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:25 AM

Backwoodsman. Absolute ballocks. Stereotype. Dictionary defintion. "a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group: The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes." From http://dictionary.reference.com .

At no time in this thread, or anywhere else have I said anything literally, or to the effect, that Sergeant Harvey's behaviour was part of a stereotypical image of the British Police. I said there are a lot more like him. That is no more stereotyping than it would be to find a few rotten apples in the barrel and declare that the entire contents of the barrel are corrupt.

If you want an example of stereotyping, this case highly offensive, racist stereotyping, take a look at this; copied from one of the postings above.
"A pint of guinness and a couple of wack fol me daddy-ohs, and they all think Gerry Adams is their best mate, and they're ready to march on the GPO."

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:03 AM

The point I was making, Don, seems entirely to have eluded you. You said that police treated (and implied that they were entitled to treat) people as threats because "people like them" had been threats. Well I've seen some appalling behaviour from people with a noteworthy similarity to your forbears - they were all Irish. You don't like it when someone points out that assumptions could be made about you, but you're all for assumptions when made by the police.

I have been at group gatherings when police were there in number. I detect a worrying code of conduct - one seen on the video on this thread, and one that did for Liddle Towers and Blair Peach and the innocent man (name escapes me) on his way home in the London riots.

Primitive Tribesman - it was DON who said that the police treated people alike because they looked alike.

Owen - I do tend to think that those to the right of Genghis Khan are either evil or stupid. Or both. We can both thinks of some examples one can find on the social media!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:25 AM

Owen - you may have an unequalled record in the field of defending human rights.

However - you are a prig.

people limke you must drive millions of people away from every worthwhile cause and organisation in the land.   There are divine voices in the bible less self righteous than your dulcet tones,

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:21 PM

""Well I've seen some appalling behaviour from people with a noteworthy similarity to your forbears - they were all Irish. You don't like it when someone points out that assumptions could be made about you, but you're all for assumptions when made by the police.""

I'm at a complete loss as to how anybody with your education and qualifications can turn out to be such an egregious FOOL!


""Primitive Tribesman - it was DON who said that the police treated people alike because they looked alike.""

NO!! I DID NOT!

I said (repeatedly) that police officers who wish to go on living treat people as a potential threat because they are:-

1). PEOPLE!
2). A POTENTIAL THREAT!

This has absolutely nothing to do with what they look like, how they sound or what kind of shirt they wear.

It is purely because every front line officer has at some time been under threat from somebody who looked like a HARMLESS HUMAN BEING, AND WASN'T!

Do you understand NOW, or do I need to use even shorter words?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 12 - 05:42 PM

do I need to use even shorter words?

Don T.

well I'd swap 'egregious'

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 12 - 06:13 AM

Owen - we don't agree, we never will, so let us agree to differ and get on with what remains of our lives in peace?

Richard - "Primitive Tribesman".......name-calling is so childish and pathetic don't you think? Clearly you don't, as you seem to resort to it so frequently. I grew up sufficiently to eschew name-calling many, many years ago. Shame you didn't. But then you never grew up and learned the value of a decent haircut either, so why am I not surprised you're a childish name-caller. If that's what posh-toff public schools teach a boy, then I'm so glad my dad was a poor man, and day-boy at a Grammar-School was the best I could do.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 12 - 09:12 AM

Richard - have you heard Backwoodsman's music. I feel sure you would like it. And you're both really into guitars AND folk music - far more than I am. I'm sure you'd like each other if you met.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Concerned
Date: 24 May 12 - 02:08 PM

Hi Big Al

From your responses to my imput I can deduce three things:-

1. Your Father was a hero.
2. The Police are superb.
3. I am grossly mistaken/and or a gross liar.

May I say:-

1. Your Father may well have been a hero and it is good that you regard him as such.
2. The Police are not all superb, some are out and out b******ds
3. I am not mistaken nor am I a liar.

I feel you and others have to acknowledge that there are some officers within the force that are in fact a disgrace to the service. Some that distort the truth, some that take bribes, some that are corrupt, some who are bullies, some who break the laws they are there to uphold. As a public servant the Police should be above all the accusations I have listed above, sadly all are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 12 - 02:20 PM

""well I'd swap 'egregious'""

He knows that one well enough Al.

Stock in Trade for the profession.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 12 - 03:22 PM

Cpncerned - you have to take people as you find them. You've found the police service unsatisfactory. Well I have, on occasions - every action is open to a negative interpretation./

I'm sure my father would have been one of the first to agree with you about the venality and unpleasantness of some officers.   However, he didn't want me to enter the ranks of the cops. he said, it made you too cynical about people.

Can't help being a bit dubious about your tale though. Without any police training.. when I got my house burgled, I saw the utmost caution with which they proceded against the burglar - who was a well known criminal. That they should have raided and ripped apart your house on the basis of no evidence -hmmmm.......

I'm not saying you're a liar. Just that something doesn't quite add up. And you seem very anxious to slag off people who (however unsatisfactorilly) do an important job.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 12 - 07:17 PM

Here are your exact words Don

"With reference to Al's last comment:- ""If a cop talks to you as though   you might be a threat - its probably cos he's met someone like you that was a threat."".

If you doubt the veracity of that statement, you should really have a chat with my cousin Phil, and have a good look at the eighteen inch scar across his torso, put there by the five foot two inch girlfriend of a man he was arresting for assaulting her.

Don T"

You expressly endorse the statement "If a cop talks to you as though   you might be a threat - its probably cos he's met someone like you that was a threat."




Al - I'll never play guitar as well as you!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 12 - 09:07 PM

Don and Richard - please don't pick over my words as a source of disagreement, between a couple of the decentest of blokes. I'm well known for talking complete bollocks = particularly from the stage, and on mudcat.

Its a medical condition known as being 'a bit of a twat' - they did an article on me in The Lancet.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 12 - 06:39 PM

""Its a medical condition known as being 'a bit of a twat' - they did an article on me in The Lancet.""

Don't worry Al, it's a condition known to strike lawyers too, when they deliberately choose to put the narrowest construction (and of course the one which gives an erroneous impression of their opponent) on what is said, and stupidly stick to it even when the broader scope is repeatedly pointed out.

Twisting the facts is what they do for a living, and it's not too surprising that they find it impossible not to continue it outside of the adversarial atmosphere of their work place.

More to be pitied than blamed!

He hasn't even the nous to realise that the statement he keeps quoting didn't originate from MY keyboard, and that I merely expanded on it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 12 - 06:46 PM

In response to the following:-

""If you doubt the veracity of that statement, you should really have a chat with my cousin Phil, and have a good look at the eighteen inch scar across his torso, put there by the five foot two inch girlfriend of a man he was arresting for assaulting her.

Don T"

Me unlearned friend posted:

""You expressly endorse the statement "If a cop talks to you as though   you might be a threat - its probably cos he's met someone like you that was a threat.""

So what are you accusing me of Richard?............MISOGYNY?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Janie
Date: 25 May 12 - 09:39 PM

Referring to LH's first post to this thread....Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 May 12 - 01:00 PM

The mindset of police is that they are the supreme authoritarians. Most of them are robocops. Personal needs you may have are not on their agenda. This makes many of them agents of repression since they generally support the ruling class.

Their M.O. is just "doing their job" which is the detached apology that is given for their physical violence, mistreatment and bullying. There are those here who maintain that innocent protesters who are mistreated deserve what they got.

This is an index of the mounting fascism that we see in the world today.

Free speech is to be punished, not rewarded in a pseudo-democratic society.


There are those protesters such as the so-called "black box anarchists" who should be restrained from their violent actions and in this, police are justified for making their arrests. Ideally, police work should include decisions based on justice rather than blind prejudice and there are police who understand this and are interested in enhancing the common good.

The problem is not so much with the police as with the system that enables their bad behavior.

Also, the latin legal term "Cui bono?" is applicable here.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 12 - 10:22 PM

I saw a laughing policeman today.. really I did..

First, through our front window, we glanced a patrol car pulling up across the road..
then a policeman running past at full pelt...

As we got up off the sofa to have a better gawp,
2 of 'em were holding down & handcuffing a large enraged muscular thuggish looking bloke
who had only moments earlier been rampaging up our street
involved in some kind of violent disturbance..

Maybe a domestic involving his wife and kids ???

..then 3rd, a rather chubby faced jovial looking policeman
just started to crack a big smile and a have good quick chuckle to himself about something
while standing guard in case he was needed as back up.

A young policewoman then emerged from the thugs front door with a grim discomforted expression
wiping, scrubbing something off her face with a wad of tissues....

All the time the families 2 fierce fighting dogs were barking and howling
to accompany the cacophony of threatening shouts and screams.

He was swiftly driven off to the station and the street returned to normal
just in time for the start of the Eurovision Song Contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 12 - 02:51 AM

I think I've explained my point of view enough. I'm going to shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:34 AM

Research into the injuries inflicted by the police on arrested people in Illinois:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160129090504.htm

The conclusion is: you're less likely to get seriously hurt in a confrontation with a random drunken thug in a bar than if you have to deal with a stone cold sober trained police officer on duty. The cops are also much more likely to injure the mentally ill or partly paralyzed than the thugs are, you are much more likely to get kicked in the back when lying on the ground unable to defend yourself, and as measured by length of hospital stay, you will probably be twice as badly hurt. Oh, and there's a 90% chance that after you get out of hospital, you won't be convicted of anything meriting imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:08 PM

Police are usually confronting serious criminals, who 9 times out of ten will not be arrested willingly.
That can hardly be equated with scuffles between civilians.

These sorts of studies are meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:24 PM

Hey!..Where's the thread called 'Criminal Congeniality'?...or 'criminal thoughtfulness'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:04 PM

Police are usually confronting serious criminals, who 9 times out of ten will not be arrested willingly.

As the study stated explicitly, 90% of the ones who got hospitalized as a result of what the cops did to them were not subsequently convicted of a serious crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:48 PM

Well, its Goofus after, Jack. What would you expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 09:04 PM

http://www.policemisconduct.net/

For the information of anyone who thinks police are squeaky clean or there isn't a problem that needs fixin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 09:45 PM

Of course there are abuses in the law enforcement community...not as much as politicized...for instance, the whole 'Hands Up Movement' which came out of the Ferguson shooting, was based on a perjured testimony, in which the person who gave that false 'testimony' was never charged or prosecuted for perjury..but the phrase in his bogus, exaggerated testimony, became the motto of that movement....and BTW, 'Exaggeration' is just a polite way of saying 'Lying'!....but then the 'so-called liberals' (funded by white, rich guys) take the bullshit and run with it.

..So OK, there ARE misdeeds, BOTH ways. Let's not yourselves agree to support lying bullshit, just because it is 'convenient' to promote your personal biases.

Let the chips fall where they may, and at least make SOME effort, to form your opinions on truth, rather than hoping a convenient lie, can be used to bolster your 'politics'.

Seems fair to me!!

GFS

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 09:56 PM

I expect "misdeeds" from people. That's why we have cops. Cops ain't supposed to be doing the misdeeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:42 PM

Yeah, well sometimes even cops need cops..after all they're just people.
To change people's behavior and proclivities, you need to bring in either a psychologist or even, God forbid, a minister.... and the 'so-called left' would shudder at the thought. I think that somehow, I get the impression from the 'left' (or 'right'), that unless you embrace THEIR thinking, in regards to politics, that there is no looking the other way, or forgiveness, until you do.

A delusional, self-indulgent mental illness....but they're not crazy..it's the rest of the world!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:40 PM

I suspect the increase in cases of police malfeasance/misconduct is (at least partly) tied to the 'militarization' of police departments. The following link seems to think so, too.

https://www.aclu.org/feature/war-comes-home

And of course you're right that cops are human and there are one helluva lot of good cops out there. But police brutality seems to be happening and whether we see more because it's exposed more is a question that needs answering. I'll see if I can find statistical support for that contention and get back to you. But what isn't questionable is the fact that police brutality is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:17 AM

True...and I'm not at odds with you about this.
I'll go you one further...not just the 'militarization' of the police departments...but the federalization of them as well!...and do we really want a politicized police force??....or one concocted to appear that way, at the behest of the globalist corporate oligarchy?? ..where no one votes for their CEO's???...and they hide behind the curtain???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 03:44 AM

My point was that the conclusion and the equation of Jack's statistics were flawed, not that police were never brutal.

I think to be a police officer in a society where firearms are so common "brutality" would be a must on any officer's CV.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 10:54 AM

Meanwhile in London - the death of Sarah Reed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-35485275

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Feb 16 - 04:29 AM

Has there been an investigation already?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Feb 16 - 04:53 AM

Yesterday there was a brief followup comment on that from Richard Bridge. It wasn't saying anything particularly controversial, but it got deleted anyway. I presume that was just because some mod has decided to hate Richard.

---

Nothing of Richard's was deleted on this thread. You are mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 16 - 10:46 AM

Thanks Jack

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 03:12 AM

I am still curious about the investigation , what did it reveal ?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 05:23 AM

"I think to be a police officer in a society where firearms are so common "brutality" would be a must on any officer's CV."

No sorry can't go along with that. Firmness and assertiveness I'd imagine are a necessity when the occasion warrants it but there is no excuse or justification for brutality.

I must admit we were probably sheltered in the Scottish Borders in the 70s where everyone, even the troublemakers, got on reasonably well with the local police. However we got a sharp dose or reality one night in Newcastle in the late 70s. Three of us walked out of a pub and a policeman gestured to one of my mates to come over which he did. The policeman then grabbed my mate by the collar and rattled his head off the top of the police car. He then turned round to us and pointing said "there's plenty of room in the cells for you tonight". It was totally unprovoked and I honestly can't think we were doing anything to warrant their attention never mind that kind of assault. They then moved off leaving my mate in quite a shocked state, though thankfully not seriously harmed, but he wanted to just go home after that. Thuggery is thuggery whether you are a policeman or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 06:20 PM

I didn't mean that literally Allan, it was a figure of speech.
Perhaps hard-headedness would be closer to the mark.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 09:01 PM

You couldn't make this shit up......


Chicago Officer, Citing Emotional Trauma, Sues Estate of Teenager He Fatally Shot
By MITCH SMITH   FEB. 7, 2016

CHICAGO — The Chicago police officer who fatally shot a black 19-year-old and an unarmed bystander in December has filed a lawsuit seeking more than $10 million in damages from the teenager's estate.

Basileios J. Foutris, a lawyer for Mr. LeGrier's estate, called the lawsuit "nonsense" and said Officer Rialmo's account of what had happened was "pure fantasy."

"It's a new low for the Chicago Police Department," Mr. Foutris said. "First you shoot them, then you sue them. It's outrageous. I can't believe that this police officer has the temerity to turn around and sue the estate of the person who he killed."

Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:55 AM

Blaming the victim happens all of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 08:27 AM

The vast majority, if not all cases of police brutality in Britain (not counting Northern Ireland) have been committed against non-armed - not criminal citizens, the overwhelming number of them have been against protesters.
There is no excuse for police brutality of any form - none, though I am not surprised there are those who appease it; nor am I surprised who they are (you could have written their script in advance).
last year there were over 3,000 police officers being inveestigated for alleged police brutality - all were still on the beat (SORRY - CAN'T CLICKIE IT)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/over-3000-police-officers-being-investigated-for-alleged-assault-and-almost-all-of-them-are-still-on-10220091.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:00 AM

LINK

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:17 AM

Thanks Guest, but that link isn't working for me - I Googled Police Brutality and got the headline of over 3,000 cases - but couldn't clickie it - the boys in blue must have been busy!!
Works perfectly otherwise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:13 AM

Having not had time to read the whole thread, I would hope someone pointed out to Megan that when the whole system is skewed to treat ppl differently because they are perceived as members of an oppressed legally group, violence is more likely than not in each case of alleged brutality. Truth is less likely to be the first story told after the fact. The dynamics of investigation need to be different when SYSTEMIC abuses are alleged.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 05:44 PM

Anmd the hits just keep coming! in "post-racial America".

White police officer alleges racial bias after being fired for shooting black man
Matt Kessler in Oxford, Mississippi
Thursday 11 February 2016

A police officer who shot and killed a 26-year-old man in Columbus, Mississippi, has filed a lawsuit alleging he was fired from his job because he is white and the man he shot was black.

In a seven-page complaint, Canyon Boykin claims he is the victim of racial discrimination and that his 14th amendment rights were violated. He claims that he would not have been discharged "except that he is white and the deceased was black".

Boykin was fired after he shot and killed Ricky Ball, in a case that has raised suspicion, questions and protests from the local community. Members of the city council say the official reasons for firing him were because he violated department policies by failing to activate his body camera, by posting offensive messages on Instagram and by allowing his girlfriend to ride in his police car for an unauthorized "ride along". Columbus city attorney Jeff Turnage said that the body camera violation occurred when Officer Boykin failed to turn on his camera before shooting Ball.

Turnage also points to an Instagram photo that Boykin posted that makes use of a derogatory term for black people.

Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 16 - 07:14 PM

nytimes/hospital.com

Man goes to hospital for his manic medicine and gets shot.
Not a shot but a bullet to the chest.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie
Date: 14 Feb 16 - 08:08 PM

From The New Jim Crow, how and when US policing moved beyond racial terrorism to fully militarized policing:

The transformation from "community policing" to "military policing," began in 1981, when President Reagan persuaded Congress to pass the Military Cooperation with Law Enforcement Act, which encouraged the military to give local, state, and federal police access to military bases, intelligence, research, weaponry, and other equipment for drug interdiction. That legislation carved a huge exception to the Posse Comitatus Act, the Civil War–era law prohibiting the use of the military for civilian policing. It was followed by Reagan's National Security Decision Directive, which declared drugs a threat to U.S. national security, and provided for yet more cooperation between local, state, and federal law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 12:19 AM

The lines between what it means to be a soldier are confused with what it means to be a cop. Their functions are or at least should be different. The development of SWAT teams started way before Reagan's presidency, and the use of snipers to deal with civilian issues changed the face of policing. Today, too many cops seem to be buying into the machismo part of it all and it is not serving the people well by the looks of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 09:07 AM

Yes.... but it's important to be aware that IN THE U.S., the glitz of using SWAT in THAT that way provided the marketing necessary to slip over-funding for SWATs (even in tiny, rural police departments) past the white public in order to fund a drug war when the drug use here was actually waning.... which resulted in the disproportionate (genocidal) mass incarceration of a rising ethnic group, with extreme violence.