Folk Club / Session Etiquette

Subject: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:00 AM

For sure we've been here before but last night I had cause to tell someone that their efforts to accompany me weren't necessary, causing a modicum of offence in the process.

Imagine that; some fecker stomps all over my song & they take offence when I tell them to stop.

But how hard is it? If you don't know a song, just listen to it. Just because you have guitar on your knee the entire night doesn't mean you're duty bound to join in with everything - like those singers who feel they must 'sing along' with other singers in order to show their appreciation of your efforts. Or witness bodhran players who feel the urge to bash along. Arrghhh!!!

Knowing is a good thing. Listening is also a good thing. Musical sensitivity and sophistication are good things too. It makes for great nights, just as great nights are ruined by clumsy attempts at joining in assuming that it's all good enough for folk when nothing could be further from the truth.

S O'P - Still smarting.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,loki
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:09 AM

I think Mr Ashtray is quite right

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:16 AM

Couldn't agree more - and would extend it to the 'Singalongamax'crowd who take it as a god-given right to join in with the singing, whether they know the singer's version or not.
An annual cull maybe!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: JHW
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:43 AM

Agree. One in particular of the singaround/sessions I go to had players that tended to this. My logic is that if I've tried to make my accompaniment interesting I'd rather folks heard it my way. Joiners in certainly won't hear my efforts and they'll deny real listeners the chance.
This may seem extreme but on one such occasion I stopped the song, put the guitar in the box and left (without fuss).
I happen to be pretty deaf in my right ear so can only just hear what I'm playing myself! I'm lost if someone else joins in.
The MC there now prefaces the evening with a reminder to all that if they wish folks to join in they should make that clear (and several do). If there is no such invitation then don't join in. Works fine.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:10 AM

That's why I started playing spoons. Youv'e no idea how fiddle and guitar players hate it when you accompany them, especialy on the slow tunes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Geoff
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:26 AM

This is all very well as long as you're quite prepared to politely tell someone what they are doing is unacceptable. Because otherwise, how else would new people know? If you're rude about it you're just propagating an unwelcoming atmosphere which will just make the tradition die out if left unchecked.

There's a balance to be had. Remember they're not doing it to piss you off but because they're enjoying your music and want to "help out", however misguided it might be!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:29 AM

Part of being a good musician is knowing when not to play, sadly a lot of people don't know this. some people just thrash away regardless, I remember someone singing ' Raglan Road ' and some twat banging away on his bodhran all the way through,, he did get told and has not been back.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:30 AM

I've noticed, entirely unscientifically, that the more respectful and diffident the would-be joiner in is the better they are when they do join in. The buggers who think they're God's gift, get their feet under the table for the night, join in on everything whether they know it or not and drink the free beer are invariably rubbish.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:41 AM

What's this about the free beer, Steve????

It seems to me that many instrumentalists don't understand us who sing unaccompanied. They play along uninvited, and attempt to correct our tempo and regularize our meter. Once you're singing a song, it's hard to stop and set restrictions on accompaniment and such. In our song circle, instrumentalists are asked to play only on their own songs, and when invited by the singer to play. Making a rule ahead of time, solves a lot of problems.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:41 AM

I don't know what people expect from a session. There's a subtle difference between a session and a singaround - the latter being a gathering where people perform in turn, and the former being a general joining-in - and I think that everyone in the company should know which applies. If someone at a singaround invites everyone to join in, then it becomes a session for the moment. If someone at a session really doesn't want others to join in - which may be a perfectly reasonable wish - then I think that should be made clear before the start of the performance.

I don't thrash all the way through a session myself - it's actually good to stop and listen and relax and get a beer at points during the evening - but I make absolutely no objection to anyone joining in with me. If this means - like Tuesday just gone - that I get a snare drummer, a bohran player and a bones player accompanying me very loudly, well that's the name of the game! (It wasn't the greatest sound in the world to be honest, but it's what I expected from the evening).

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: selby
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:44 AM

Heres one that happened to me some 30 years ago I learnt to play accordion (not very well) to take the load of the only 2 floor singers our folk club had. Some people came from a ceilidh band and played a couple of tunes and sang a couple of songs. I was playing my little set told everyone what i was going to play and the ceilidh band joined in, excellent until i moved into the 3rd tune of my set and they played something completely different, that I didn't know then told me it was a better tune than the one I had learned. Did not play accordion again in public.
Keith

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:46 AM

And I forgot to say - if I happen to break into a song at a session, I always make spaces for the accompanying melody instruments to take a solo if they want to. In the style developed by Bob Wills of course. "Play away fiddles, play away!", etc.

It's all good fun, with the casual accompaniment of the till, orders at the bar, the buzz of conversation from the locals, someone breaking off from playing to greet an old acquaintance, people coming and going.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:48 AM

Keith - if that had been me, I'd have played my accordion in public as often as I wanted - after firmly telling the ceilidh band to collectively fuck off.

I enjoy a free-for-all as much as the next man, but Manners Makyth Man - and the Next Man.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:46 AM

What will persuade me more than anything to never come back to a session/singaround is people NOT accompanying me.

Mostly I play Scottish traditional music, which is mostly dance music that was always intended to have an accompaniment. If you don't have a cello like Niel Gow expected, a guitar will do. But sitting there like a dumpling with a guitar propped up beside you and not even trying to figure out something to do with it while I'm playing a straightforward reel is just plain insulting. I get this from virtually all the local Americana fanboys, who have the whole chord sequences for American Pie and the complete works of Neil Young in their heads. And they can't even do Mrs Macleod? What's WRONG with you?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: CupOfTea
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:55 AM

In my experience, the singarounds or sessions that have been the most enjoyable ones are when the day's etiquette/rules/customs of that group are stated up front, and renewed when latecomers are ready to plunge in. Of course it's not "cool" to do that - many would think everyone has ESP and knows how to behave, but when they don't, then what happens is aggravation. Without mentioning HOW it's going to work, it's much more likely it WON'T work.

What Will Fly said about the difference between a sing around and a session - that's his definition and interpretation of local etiquette. Some of the places I go vary from this considerably. Expecting a new singaround/session someplace else to work just like the one you're used to is one of those situations where it helps to have ESP or a very well developed sense of social niceties. Will likely has that, but unfortunately, folk music tends to attract a good number of people who DON'T have very good social skills, and without being told, are nearly guaranteed to blunder in a way that cuts into EVERYONES enjoyment of the time making music.

I've been the singaround victim m'self of a "professionalcuzIhavebandrecordings" guitarist who didn't "get" an acapella song. "But *I* can tell what the chords are!" sez he. ::: cue grinding of teeth:::: "IT"S ACAPELLA THERE ARE NO GUITAR CORDS!!!" I manage to get out without screaming too very loudly. I also stopped going to that session.

One of the things I find difficult is when one of *my* songs - something I've worked hard on having an arrangement for, and spent considerable time and love to polish- is done by someone else in a way that grates on my nerves. A classic of this is a band I otherwise enjoy considerably, but the male singers tend to shout/sing most songs, including "Grey Funnel Line," as if it were a shanty. It's their session, so I tamp down my aggravation and sing along or go get a beer. (and put on some Silly Sisters to clean out my head after...)

c\_/ cheers! Another chorus please!

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:24 PM

Many years ago (I estimate 1958), at one of the EFDSS monthly Sunday singarounds Peter Kennedy used to run, I remember the late Robin Hall trying to chip in on guitar as I was singing unaccompanied The Gaol Song, which was the way I liked to do it. I waved him down & he stopped. A few days later I met him again. "Ewan MacColl sings that song accompanied," he said accusingly, as if he had made some sort of knock-down point. I pointed out that if I wanted to do the same I'd have done it for myself, thank you.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:26 PM

True words, Joanne - if I attend a new session, I'll either find out beforehand what the style is or have a quiet few minutes absorbing the "culture". I do tend to avoid the very "pure" sessions that take place, such as those where the tune and only the tune - played by everyone in unison - is ever required. I like to play guitar, and I've spent years accompanying musicians of all types, so a mixed bag of music - particularly with some improvisation from the company - is what suits me. If I do find myself at a rather "stricter" tunes session, then I reach for the mandolin... :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:32 PM

I might like a glass of wine at a session - in the unlikely event of my ever going to one!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:19 PM

I remember doing a gig at Sharps Folk Club C#HOUSE back in the nineties,and while I was accompanying my singning on the concertina, another concertina player tried to join in, his chords were not compatible with mine, I was Flabbergasted, so this is not a new phenomenon

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:23 PM

As Keats said: one guitar at a time, and no bodhrans at all, that is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:24 PM

"From: Jack Campin - PM
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:46 AM

What will persuade me more than anything to never come back to a session/singaround is people NOT accompanying me.

Mostly I play Scottish traditional music, which is mostly dance music that was always intended to have an accompaniment. If you don't have a cello like Niel Gow expected, a guitar will do. But sitting there like a dumpling with a guitar propped up beside you and not even trying to figure out something to do with it while I'm playing a straightforward reel is just plain insulting. I get this from virtually all the local Americana fanboys, who have the whole chord sequences for American Pie and the complete works of Neil Young in their heads. And they can't even do Mrs Macleod? What's WRONG with you?"
jesus christ, this post beats everything, Jack would you prefer they joined in in the wrong key, or with the wrong chords, personally I am eternally grateful , if people who have never heard a tune before, do not join in, there is nothing worse than trying to play a tune and have some tone deaf idiot playing all the wrong chords

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 May 12 - 01:33 PM

Whilst agreeing with Joanne about etiquette being stated upfront, how can this be done at a session where people are coming and going at different times? A large unmissable notice perhaps?

Singarounds, just about everybody knows the etiquette, join in if invited, don't join in if not. Newcomers should soon pick up the situation and if not the organiser can easily slip in a general reminder when needed.

A 'session' is a session is a session, a free-for-all. Again, if somebody wishes to sing without accompaniment they should be prepared to state this before starting. Or perhaps bring a pitchpipe in a godforsaken key between two notes so nobody can pitch in with you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:09 PM

With something like Mrs MacLeod, banging away in the right rhythm on A all the way through is a lot better than nothing.

You only learn what works by actually trying, and the Americana fanboys aren't willing to do that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:10 PM

"Again, if somebody wishes to sing without accompaniment they should be prepared to state this before starting."
NO NO NO,people should not try and accompany a singer unless they ask the singer first.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:38 PM

"That's why I started playing spoons"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_11JDYcZX44
"This is all very well as long as you're quite prepared to politely tell someone what they are doing is unacceptable"
You should never have to - good manners should prevail if not artistic sensitivity.
"God's gift" sums these arrogant pricks in a simple phrase.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 May 12 - 03:24 PM

You should never have to - good manners should prevail if not artistic sensitivity.

This is a universal constant.

If one doesn't know the piece, just listen & enjoy (surely 70% of the reason for being there in the first place) then everyone's a winner.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 19 May 12 - 03:30 PM

Best to assume that musicians and other singers want to join in. They've had a few beers, they're there for relaxed fun not a formal concert. That may mean some participants will be boorish, so best to be brief and clear from start about what you're going to do and what kind of participation you'd like. Actively inviting some very specific accompaniment (just 'drones' or 'drums' say) might be preferable to saying nowt and assuming the resident guitar hero won't want to spend the bulk of the song "discreetly" trying to figure out what key you're singing in..

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 May 12 - 03:55 PM

"With something like Mrs MacLeod, banging away in the right rhythm on A all the way through is a lot better than nothing."

Unless, of course, you're in England and practically everybody plays it in G.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Bert
Date: 19 May 12 - 05:19 PM

As an old folk singer I vary the timing for effect. It has the advantage of discouraging un-asked for accompanists.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 12 - 05:53 PM

"Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin - PM
Date: 19 May 12 - 02:09 PM

With something like Mrs MacLeod, banging away in the right rhythm on A all the way through is a lot better than nothing.

You only learn what works by actually trying, and the Americana fanboys aren't willing to do"
what a ridiculous thing to say, it is not better than doing nothing,MiSS McLEODS REEL, Is not harmonised correctly by banging away on a even if the melody was being played in A.
IT IS BETTER FOR PEOPLE TO DO NOTHING THAN TO BANG AWAY AT RANDOM ON A GUITAR.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:10 PM

There are so many subcultures going on that it is nonsense to believe that someone is being rude if they join in or don't join in. In the old Seattle Song Circle it was understood (by me anyway) that you would join in with the singing if you knew it..but you were not to overpower the leader, unless he or she was so floundering it had to be done...instruments were more of a problem and we finally just said only guitars. Now, if a person wants no instruments, or all instrumnets, or only flutes, she can say so up front or have a discreet hand signal if they start to confuse her. Some places consider it rude to join in; some expect it. I personally prefer it..singing..but I hate guitars playing the wrong chord..I don't want to hear myself singing a solo and I don't want to hear too many others singing a solo either..one after another after another..what I want to hear is a group singing...I have been confused for a while because people listen adoringly (or seem like it) instead of singing along..I would look around and think..half of them have to know this song...I finally figured out they were trying to be polite. So state your preference upfront, don't act morally superior because it is a preference and not a virtue. mg

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 May 12 - 03:46 AM

I'm with Will on the "sessions v singarounds" front. And these are also, in our area, very different from Folk Club etiquette, where (in our area at least) you tend, if the evening's not advertised as a "singaround", to have a booked act supported by a number of floor singers who do generally perform solo, or as,say, a rehearsed duo.

Stating "the rules" up front won't work at the events I go to as people tend to arrive and depart throughout the evening, so as a newbie you just need to take a while to absorb the "style".

But it's musical awareness that's the key factor, whatever type of event it is. The "session" I go to that Will attends is fantastic, due not just to the quality of the musicianship from most participants, but also to the sensitivity they bring. Although tunes often "just start" by consensus or by several people "twiddling around" before one twiddle becomes dominant and everyone gets behind it, people at the back or newbies are invited to "do something" at some point in the evening, and the group appears to be very sensitive as to whether a contributor would be happy for people to join in or not. It's mayhem, but controlled, joyous, sensitive mayhem and the fact that I'll happily drive an hour each way to attend it, despite having little to contribute musically (yet?) speaks for itself.

Singarounds can be great or terrible for joining in. I don't mind anyone joining in with what I'm doing, if it "fits" but from time to time I get absolutely pissed off when someone sings or plays the version of a song *they* know, rather han listening to what I'm doing and following it.

A while back I did Sandy Denny's "Rising For The Moon" at a singaround. I was being fairly loudly accompanied by someone playing a lead line on guitar to my rhythm. It didn't sound bad, but the way I play this one I've put 16 bars of my own lead between verses 2 and 3, and I'm not experienced enough yet to modify "on the fly" things I've learned. I hoped the guy would stop when I started my own lead riff, but he didn't...and the 2 riffs clashed horribly.

Similarly with "Poverty Knock" which I did at another singaround very recently. This is a song I learned at my mother's knee, and my version has a slightly different chorus from the accepted version. I also run two verses together between each chorus as otherwise I think it makes the song too long. There are 10 short verses and since it opens with the chorus, 11 choruses if you do one every verse. A very loud singer "helped me out" by constantly trying to intersperse the "missing" chorus at the end of each verse, and also (loudly and empatically) "correcting" the line in the chorus which I sing as my mother taught it to me *well before* the song was known outside Batley, Cleckheaton and Liversedge mills. I'm sorry, but I WON'T be "corrected" in an interpretion of a song originating in the exact Yorkshire mills my mother started working in in 1930 by someone living in Kent who's never seen a woollen mill in his life :-)

Mostly, singarounds are great though. Very different to sessions but just occasionally spoiled by someone who's not "aware" enough to be sensitive to others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 12 - 04:15 AM

"If one doesn't know the piece, just listen & enjoy"
I think it goes way beyond this. Each singer has his/her own particular take on the song which can differ enormously; this can affect the speed, intensity, volume, phrasing..... of any song.
The success or failure of any song, for the singer and for the listener, is in making the interpretation work for both. It is impossible for any singer to make that interpretation and pass it on with the massed choirs of.... whichever folk club droning away in the background.
I club audiences want to sing, they should do so only when invited to and not the other way round, which is guaranteed to create an 'atmosphere'.
If they can't do without their 'fix', them plan your evenings around chorus songs; and mention to a guest that this is the type of club you are running (do not impose your own styles and idiosyncracies on visiting performers - that's the despotism of the masses).
As for accompaniment, I don't play an instrument but when I worked with accompanists (often) I spent hours practicing with them so we could (at the very least) get the phrasing right.
I have restarted singing recently and am now feeling the itch to work with an accompanist again; if I do, exactly the same methods of work will apply.
As an audience member, last year I attended a singing festival with some excellent singers (some of the older ones completely unused to an audience any larger than half-a-dozen family members). I had the misfortune to sit next to an established singer (from your side of the Irish Sea) who joined in every single song, and when she didn't know the words, she hummed the tune audibly - people are still talking about her here.
It is little wonder that British folk music is still struggling to see the light of day if this cultural vandalism has become the norm!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 May 12 - 04:44 AM

I think fiddlers are probably often the worst offenders with songs - there is a knack to accompanying which involves subtly playing in the background - a lot fiddlers tend to swamp a song with soaring concerto like accompaniment all the way through, including a lot of recorded music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 May 12 - 05:14 AM

It is little wonder that British folk music is still struggling to see the light of day if this cultural vandalism has become the norm!

Jim, I wouldn't extrapolate a whole "cultural vandalism" from just one example that you happened to witness. It's not the norm, in my experience and, with great respect, sounds a little like a predictable ride on one of your hobby horses.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: banjoman
Date: 20 May 12 - 05:50 AM

Its simple really - at sessions anyone can join in because thats what a session is about. At singarounds its easy enough to ask others not to join in unless asked. My favourite Tom Paxton story (1960's) when he was at the Philharmonic Hall in liverpool made it clear that the audience were welcome to join in the chorus but not in the verses. Otherwise, he said, I/ll go and sit in the pub opposite and phone the doorman to tell them what to sing next.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:16 AM

And it's not a bad pub, that one, either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:16 AM

If you are a guitar player, and you really don't want anybody else to join in instrumentally on your songs, the politest and most effective way to prevent this is to tune your guitar down by exactly a quarter tone (if you have light gauge strings you could tune it up a quarter tone). Ideally, you would have a Snark tuner to accomplish this quickly and accurately, ( and obviously you would have done it before your turn to sing)

Ideally, you would also use a capo and an open tuning, and this will totally throw any unwanted would-be accompanists, who will spend the entire duration of the song trying to figure out what key you are actually playing in.   

Of course, if you are one of these unfortunate people cursed with so-called "perfect pitch", it might be difficult to sing a song a quarter tone below concert pitch, but I don't think that would be a
problem for most folk singers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:22 AM

"It's not the norm, in my experience "
It has been argued for often enough, here and elsewhere, for it to be fairly common practice will.
My particular example was of a nationally recognised singer, making it widespread enough for me to believe it to be a not uncommon practice.
It has been argued for elsewhere as a point of principle that if unless a guest requests that the audience does not join in, then they are free to do so.
"at sessions anyone can join in"
We have a singing regular session here; ballads, narrative songs, lyrically introspective pieces.. all to be joined in with in your definition Banjie?
Sorry... not in a million years.
Call them singalongs if you want, but sessions are a thousand other things.
If singing along is common practice in a club it is not easy to ask others not to join in - you have immediately thrown up a barrier between the listener and the singer.
My respect for Tom Paxton has just rocketed sky-high.
The practice of singing along has attained 'bodhran' status as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:30 AM

I am a Notorious 'Noodler' , but NOT with Unaccompanied songs - I am fully aware that a lot if singers vary the metre to suit the song (AND their feeling) , and with acconmpanied song , I DO like to sort out the arrangement , but QUIETLY unless I get a Nod to join in .
Last thing I would ever do is impose MY idea of how a song should be performed on another performer .
Sessions and Singarounds in UK are normally two totally different things - No One at a 'Session' should be performing intricate arrangements of songs in C# - Sessions are for joining in !

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:40 AM

What have is essentially A SESSION but it involves a lot of SINGING and a lot of JOINING IN and a lot of HARD WORK by SEASONED MUSICIANS to make sure the music is always AMAZING. The assumption is here that no one plays anything UNLESS THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING and can contribute to a song or tune in a such a way that will ENHANCE the overall experience for both the singer and the company.

Harmony singing is encouraged; virtuoso ensemble improvisation is de rigueur, and consequently the standards are invariably pretty damn high. What isn't needed are people who think bog-standard FAKERY and enthusiastic CHORD STRUMMING in any way, shape or form equates with MUSICAL ARTISTRY or SENSITIVITY or APROPRIATENESS. I can think of dozens of clubs in our area where this aproach really wouldn't be a problem at all, but in the rarefied atmosphere of our Friday Session this just isn't the case. This is why I go there. Fair enough, we all blunder, but one shouldn't be placed in a position of awkwardness by someone joining in with your song who hasn't got the first fecking clue what the song is about having never even heard it before - and if they had they'd know it doesn't need accompanying.

*

I remember once this singer-songwriter guy was in doing this song in E and I joined in on my E Jew's Harp, with modal wit, rhythmic sophistication and genuine musical cunning. Next time he came in and did the song I picked up my E Jew's Harp only to find he'd notched his guitar up a few cents sharp of concert. Obviously he didn't dig my thang! But at least I had the decency to stop at the first twang. I get the impression that no what measures people took some guys & gals would just keep wading on because they don't LISTEN.

This is basic COMMON SENSE one would have thought.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:49 AM

Sessions are for joining in !

Well, mebbe. In our session, space is very tight. We've being doing what we do for nigh on 20 years. I think it means we get some say as to who joins in. It's our party. That doesn't mean we say no - we don't - but generally we don't want any rattlers or thumpers (due to previous awful experience with 'em), and, well, we already have a guitar player, thanks. Melody players are a different matter. There must be at least some respect shown for the regulars, spiced with a just a hint of diffidence. That way, everybody's happy.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:50 AM

My overwhelming impression having been in many many mixed folk sessions is the inherent niceness of the participants. Singers who can't sing in tune,players who can't play in tune and percussionists who can't hit something in time;all are welcomed and none belittled for lack of skill. The key here is people are having fun.
By and large people gravitate towards settings which suit their personal preferences. If you don't like a particular setting or format go somewhere else. John

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: JHW
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:50 AM

Acorn4 says 'I think fiddlers are probably often the worst offenders with songs - there is a knack to accompanying which involves subtly playing in the background - a lot fiddlers tend to swamp a song' and generally I'd agree but it reminds me of a young fiddle player Jess (Richmond, N.Yorks) fairly new to folk sessions who understood how to sidle in here and there to the extent that I found myself choosing songs that I reckoned she could benefit. Done well it's a treat.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: BobKnight
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:53 AM

I try not to join in, because I don't think I'm a good enough guitar player to accompany tunes I don't know. Sometimes I worry that they may think me a bit stand-offish, in not joining in, but I'd rather let them get on with it than play duff chords.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:04 AM

Bob, find a slow session and have a go. Joining in, provided it is the right setting is what it is all about. many of the common session tunes only require three chords for a perfectly acceptable accompaniment. It is getting the changes right that is important.   John.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Bert
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:07 AM

If you really don't want people to join in you could just ask them not to. Or maybe just sing "The Old Sow Song"

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Marje
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:08 AM

Jim, British folk music is not struggling to see the light of day. There's lots of it about if you know where to look. And in my experience, the areas in which it is flourishing are those which have an open and encouraging attitude to participation at informal sessions.

Harmony and choral/chorus singing is much more a part of the tradition in England than it is in Ireland (not sure where the rest of the UK fits in on this spectrum). People have sung songs together for centuries at various social occasions, festivities and celebrations. A folk culture that failed to acknowledge this and include it would be denying our tradition and promoting, instead, a performance-based style that encouraged the audience to be passive consumers of the music.

When I sing at a session, I either accompany myself, which to my mind invites others to play along, or I sing unaccompanied. It's rare for anyone to try to play an instrument during an unaccompanied song, but not uncommon for others to sing along quietly, either following the tune or improvising a harmony. That's just fine with me - I have a strong voice and I stay in charge of the song whatever happens. It pleases me to hear others wanting to engage with the song by joining in, and many songs are purpose-made for such participation, with choruses, refrain lines, and repeated verses.

At a club where you get up and stand in front of the room to sing, there's a general understanding that others don't join in on instruments, but if it's a well known song, people do sometimes want to hum or sing along. Far from thinking they're "God's gift", some of the joiners-in who hum quietly would never get up and sing alone, but are developing their confidence and musicality by joining in at their own level. It's such a natural response to music that I wouldn't want to forbid or prevent it, even if it doesn't really enhance the performance. The process is sometimes more important than the end result. And sometimes, just sometimes, the end result of spontaneous joining-in is magical.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:09 AM

Your view of a "session" is then different from mine, Jim - and we must agree to differ. You describe a "singing regular session" which, on my terms, would constitute a singaround and not a session.

I run a small session in my local pub on a monthly basis - and when I say "run" I mean facilitate in such a way that everyone gets the chance to perform. Unless a performer indicates that their turn is to be a solo effort, or perhaps a duo with a friend, then everyone is encouraged to join in - that's what the session is all about. And there's enough common sense around the table for people to understand and appreciate what's appropriate.

I particularly encourage newcomers and beginners to join in, however nervous they might be - some take up the opportunity and some are more reluctant. We have some fairly basic beginners and some very experienced and talented musicians - all are there on an equal basis, and I hope more than anything else that the newbies/beginners fee confident enough to join in and learn something from the more experienced players. The regulars who come to listen also love it, and there's lots of banter and good-natured heckling (and counter-heckling) through the evening as the beer flows.

That's what I call a session - communal, acoustic music-making with good fellowship and tolerance - all for that essential element: fun. There are plenty of other venues in my area where I can go for, say a more purist Irish session or a more purist French tunes session or a more purist English tunes session, should I feel the need. Some of these sessions are joyous and relaxed - others are not - and there's not necessarily any correlation between the seriousness of the attitude and the quality of the music. Needless to say, I avoid the joyless sessions like the plague because, if there's no joy in music-making, we may as well turn our faces to the wall.

To be honest, Jim, much as I respect your experience, I feel there's little point in trying to have a debate with you as your attitudes towards what happens musically over here have been fixed and unyielding ever since I started reading Mudcat threads, which is about 5 years now. You have a personal party line which, in spite of the ever-changing scene and regional variation in music-making over here in that time, you follow and never change. You seem to have no idea what the scene is in my area, but still the party line is trotted out about "cultural vandalism".

If you're so fixed and unchanging in your attitudes towards the British scene, then why bother to say anything at all - why not keep quiet and let us get on happily with our obviously inferior cultural vandalism? You think it exists - I don't - so let's just beg to differ.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:17 AM

Well said Mr. Fly.