Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?

Subject: Folklore: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,mrsfifties
Date: 28 May 12 - 10:41 AM

Hello there. I'm doing some research for a BBC drama based round the song Scarborough Fair, and I would like to know several things:

1. Is the version collected by Sharp in 1913 from Richard Hutton in Goathland the earliest collected version?
2. How many others are there and where were they collected?
3. Are there any accounts of Sharp meeting with Hutton?
4. Are there any accounts of Sharp's visit to Yorkshire in general?
5. I've read that SF is a descendant of 'The Elfin Knight' of which I believe there's a manuscript from the 17th century. Does anyone know where that MS was collected and where it is now?
6. Am I right in thinking there's a set of versions called 'Whittingham' or 'Wittingham' Fair?

Rather a long list I'm afraid, but I hope someone will be able to help me with one or all of the above!

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 12 - 10:48 AM

mrsfifties-

Here's a link to a previous "Origin of Scarborough Fair" thread with extensive discussion for you to review: click here for discussion!

There are also link in blue above the beginning of that thread which will take you to related threads.

Charley Noble

Subject: Lyr Add: WHITTINGHAM FAIR
From: Tootler
Date: 28 May 12 - 02:36 PM

I don't know about a set of versions but a version titled "Whittingham Fair" was published in the Northumbrian Minstrelsy in 1882. Apart from the location (Whittingham is a village in Northumberland) it is pretty much identical to versions collected in Yorkshire, including the "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme" refrain. There is also a Dorian mode tune for it which is similar but definitely not the same as the familiar tune.

Here are the words as they appear in the Northumbrian Minstrelsy:

Whittingham Fair

Are you going to Whittingham Fair
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
For once she was a true love of mine

Tell her to make me a cambric shirt,
Without any seam or needlework,

Tell her to wash it in yonder well,
Where never spring water nor rain ever fell,

Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn,
Which never bore blossom since Adam was born,

Now he has asked me questions three
I hope he will answer as many for me

Tell him to find me an acre of land
Between the salt water and the sea sand

Tell him to plough it with a ram's horn
And sow it all over with one peppercorn

Tell him to reap it with a sickle of leather
And bind it up with a peacock's feather

When he has done and finished his work
O tell him to come and he'll have his shirt

The comment at the end by the editors of the Northumbrian Minstrelsy is:

This is another example of the enigmatical duolinear ballad, and popular in the north and west of the county of Northumberland; it is also known in several parts of England, but is usually sung as a nursery ballad

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 03:36 PM

'Scarborough Fair' is one    of 'The Elfin Knight' family (Child 2).
The earliest vaguely recognisable form appears to be that in Durfey's Pills to Purge Melancholy (1790-20) under the title 'Jockey's Lamentation' and gives the chorus (only) as:
And 'tis over the hills and far away
'Tis over the hills and far away
'Tis over the hills and far away
The wind has blown my Plad away.
There is an earlier version entitled 'My Plaid Away' which is given only as a tune in Bronson (Vol 1) and attributed to 'Margaret Sinkler's Ms' (1710)
The Margaret Sinkler Manuscripts are housed in the National Library of Scotland, Edinburgh.
The 'Scarborough Fair' Kidson published in 1891 is said to have been "sung by a street singer, Whitby, Yorkshire c1860".

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 May 12 - 04:14 PM

See notes on Whittingham Fair here:
www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/eliza.carthy/songs/whittinghamfair.html

"Whittingham Fair"- Bruce and Stokes, 1882, pp. 79-80. Nine verses with tune. In Bronson, The Singing Tradition.... p. 9-10 (under 2. The Elfin Knight.

See discussion in Bronson, B. H., The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads. The Elfin Knight Child No. 2, p. 7.
"At about the end of the eighteenth century, a different form of the ballad becomes dominant, in which the interlaced refrain lines are "Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme" (or a similar jingle) and "once she (he) was a true lover of mine." All variants of this group are in a triple rhythm (including 6/8). ...."

There is a variant "Strawberry Lane," coll. about 1914. Also in Bronson.

Vaughan Williams, JFSS, II, 1906, p. 212, Printed "An Acre of Land," version sung in Wiltshire, 1904. Six verses and tune in Bronson, pp. 11-12.
The version "The Lover's Tasks, coll. Sharp, 1906. Two variants in Bronson, The Singing Tradition..., p. 11.

Also "The Sea Side."

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 May 12 - 05:05 PM

"A proper new ballad entitled The Wind hath blown my Plaid away, or, A Discourse betwixt a young [Wolman and the Elphin Knight,' a broadside in black letter in the Pepysian library, bound up at the end of a copy of Blind Harry's 'Wallace,' Edin. 1673."
Quote from introduction to The Elfin Knight, Child, "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads."
See "Pills to Purge...," post by Jim Carroll, above.

Child comments on ballads similar to the Elfin Knight in German and other European languages.

Gammer Gurton's Garland, 1810 (quoted as G in Child)-
1.
Can you make me a cambrick shirt,
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Without any seam or needle work?
Ans you shall be a true lover of mine.
........

Versions beginning with a line on Scarborough Fair, 1891, 1893 (Child, Appendix to The Elfin Knight)
1.
Is any of you going to Scarborough Fair?
Remember me to a lad as lives there;
Remember me to a lad as lives there;
For once he was a true lover of mine.
2
Tell him to bring me an acre of land ....

Much of the above in the linked thread; perhaps some of this useful as fill.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 12 - 05:58 PM

Come on people. It was written by Paul Simon in 1966.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 May 12 - 07:25 PM

mrsfifties

Are you only interested in the versions mentioning Scarborough Fair (as opposed to other places)?

1. The Sharp 1913 version is not the earliest collected. Kidson had a version sent to him in 1834 (possibly from Yorkshire). He also published a version from a Whitby street singer in 1860 (published 1891 as noted above). Lucy Broadwood published a version in English County Songs in 1893 from William Moat, a Whitby fisherman.

(And, IIRC, the version in Gammer Gurton's Garland is the first printed use of the Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme refrain, though it doesn't mention Scarborough Fair).


2. How many other versions depends on which versions you are interested in. Only those that mention Scarborough/Scarboro.. Fair or all the Child 2 versions. If you can be specific we can help you out with that. (Or if you want to look yourself, check The Roud Broadside Index - Scarborough Fair search. Note: that search was for Scarborough Fair in any of the major fields. It won't list all the other versions, and lists entries not for this song. If you want all the Child 2 entries, change the search field to Roud Number and search for 12).

3/4. Sharp's diaries are online at VWML - Sharp's Diaries, but they date from 1915, so are a bit too late for the collection from Hutton. Karpeles' biog of Sharp has no mention in the index. The National Archives has ms of the song (listed as possibly for publication in JFSS, but that may be only the song). I'd check with the librarian at the VWML for that one.

5/6 Seem to have been covered above.


If you need some expansion on this feel free to come back with more questions.


Mick

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 May 12 - 11:32 AM

As Mick says, the diaries don't extend back as far as 1913. However, we do know what Cecil Sharp was doing in Goathland in July 1913: he was researching the old and more or less moribund Goathland sword dance and mummers' play. Sharp's enquiries resulted in the revival of the local dances, performed to this day by the Goathland Plough Stots - info on this website

Kidson's version B of 'Scarborough Fair' in his 1891 'Traditional Tunes' was also collected in Goathland, from one A. Wardill. However, this version doesn't have the magnificent Dorian tune of Hutton's song (although it's not bad), and only one verse seems to have been notated.

Mrsfifties, if you could contact me here , I'd like to talk further about the ballad. I've been singing that Hutton version for years!

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,Purist
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:13 PM

Wasn't that song originally by Simon & Garfunkle?

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:17 PM

Simon and Garfunkle took this old song, slightly revised it, and made a hit recording, riding the folk revival wave.

They weren't born until long after the song first appeared.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:42 PM

Paul Simon, while over here (c mid-sixties IIRC), had learnt it from Martin Carthy, who had, I believe, got it from the version sung by Ewan MacColl on Argo's The Long Harvest collection of British and American ballad variants; this one having been collected in 1947 from one Mr Anderson, a retired Teesdale lead miner.

Other versions have interesting variations on the magic-herb-litany refrain. Two I am fond of are "Sober and grave grow merry in time", which makes a sort of sound sense; and "So savoury was said, Come marry in time".

I believe his name is spelt Garfunkel, BTW.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 12 - 02:08 PM

S & G sang it on the soundtrack of The Graduate [1967], the film about the middle-aged Mrs Robinson {Ann Bancroft} who seduces the young graduate played by Dustin Hoffman, along with the more obviously relevant "Here's to you, Mrs Robinson". What relevance Scarboro Fair was supposed to have to the film and its plot and situation I am still trying to puzzle out.

~M~

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 02:35 PM

The version Carthy and others sang appeared in Seeger's and MacColl's
'The Singing Island' (1960), where it is attributed to the singing of Mark Anderson, a retired lead miner from Middleton in Teesdale, Yorkshire.
It was recorded by Ewan and Joan Littlewood as part of a field trip for a radio programme, 'The Song Collector' broadcast in 1948 and produced by Olive Shapley
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 29 May 12 - 03:41 PM

I suggest you contact the EFDSS and ask to speak to Malcom Taylor, who, I'm sure, would be all too happy to help and probably be able to provide you with references and documents to back up beliefs.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 May 12 - 04:08 AM

Several of the contributors above are well acquainted with the references and documents, thank you 'Guest STM'.

Malcolm, whilst undoubtedly a hero, has an entire library to look after, whereas some of us have spent time researching this specific ballad.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 12 - 06:05 AM

Well said, Mr. Peters!

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: BB
Date: 30 May 12 - 06:07 AM

Sorry, that last was me - lost my cookie!

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:25 AM

And evidently "mrsfifties" is busy with other interests.

So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:16 PM

Well I am very happy to see all this . Thanks for a great thread. I am playing this on clawhammer banjo the last year or two. Really fun . All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 May 12 - 10:48 AM

"And evidently "mrsfifties" is busy with other interests"

Here I thought that asking time-consuming questions and not coming back for the responses was a teenage thing.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 May 12 - 02:24 PM

Well at least Guy Wolff has got some benefit from our efforts. How are you doing, Guy? Which version are you accompanying on banjo?

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 04:05 PM

Apart from the line "The wind has blown my plaid away" in the chorus, the song Jockey's Lamentation doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to any version of the Elfin Knight, but is simply a love song about a young man duped by a faithless (heartless?) girl friend.

The tune is "Over the Hills and Far Away" better known for a propaganda song about Malborough's campaigns during the reign of Queen Anne and, in modified form, is the tune to "Tom, Tom the piper's son".

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 05:22 PM

I enjoyed this as well. Maybe the OP has a really good reason for not saying thank you.

Like a dreadful emergency or something. But I hope not.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 06:11 PM

Lighter

I think she may not be able to find this thread; she posted the same questions to Origins: Scarborough Fair / Robert Westall today. I put a link back to here for her.

(Also, unlike me, she might have a life and can't check back every day;-) ).

Mick

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 06:13 PM

Hey, I've got a life!

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:04 AM

I sometimes have a life.

Right now, though I'm wasting time reading Mudcat on my phone while sort of watching Poirot on TV.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:23 AM

Mudcat isn't the most easy forum to navigate if you're used to other more modern structured fora, as all the threads are all piled in together and often go off the bottom of the page by the end of the day. I note from the thread where her second request has been made that Mrsfifties is a member now, if she continues to find the site confusing, maybe another member could PM her with a link to her original thread?

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:53 AM

Good suggestion CS - I've just done that. (Now all she has to realise is that the number at the top of her page is a message count!).

Mick

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:53 AM

Also worth mentioning that the version from William Moat was, a) recorded by the Dransfields way back when and b) contains no culinary herbs. As a further aside, the herbs parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme are the main flavouring ingredients for the stuffing used in roast pork, the actual, traditional midwinter feat, so may have a darker association than mere culinary hints.
Oh aye, and while we're on it - seamless shirt – shroud? dry well - grave? Liminality in bucket loads in this song whatever version.

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: mrsfifties
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:35 AM

Hello everyone and thank you so much for the time you've taken to help me out - I truly appreciate it. Apologies too for taking so long to respond; I've been sidetracked for a week on another aspect of the research (plus I've been a bit slow finding my way round the website, but I think I've got the hang of it now!) There's a lot of great knowledge out there, it's quite humbling.

Mandy

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,parispoetry
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:59 PM

Sooooo I've read through all of the above post, and I'm not seeing a definitive collective answer. I'm doing a paper for college, but the books that I need that would have the information on this song are not available.( for some odd reason)So can we say one more time definitively What was the earliest notated version(and/ or recorded) of Scarborough Fair/The Elfin Knight. Where would I find the evidence to support the answer(since a citation for the bibliography is needed) Please have mercy on my hair and help. I've been at my wits end trying to find information that I can support. :0

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:18 PM

Hi,

Without checking on it I believe the first version titled
"Scarborough Fair" was published in Frank Kidson's "Traditional Tunes, A Collection of Ballad Airs" in 1891. You can view on internet archive.

It's a version of Elfin Knight which is considerable older- check Child's ESPB for that date which I'd have to look up but it was around 1670.

Richie

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:34 PM

Hi,

I looked it up Kidson says, "it was sung by a ballad singer in the Whitby streets twenty or thirty years ago." So the earliest version titled "Scarborough Fair" would be known circa 1865 in Whitby. This date is taking 25 years off the publication date- 1891 and figuring it took a year to be published after the book was written.

The earliest date for the Elfin Knight that we known so far is 1673 when the broadside, "A proper new ballad entitled The Wind hath blown my Plaid away, or, A Discourse betwixt a young [Wolman and the Elphin Knight,' a broadside in black letter in the Pepysian library, bound up at the end of a copy of Blind Harry's 'Wallace,' Edin. 1673" was published.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 May 13 - 08:03 AM

There are lots of other threads about SCARBOROUGH FAIR. Here's the longest one: /thread.cfm?threadid=111333.

Subject: RE: Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 May 13 - 10:02 AM

parispoetry - you might also have a look at this site: ...Tell Her To Make Me A Cambric Shirt - From the Elfin Knight to Scarborough Fair, which looks like a fair history of the song. (I haven't time to look at it closely now - I'm on my way out).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: breezy
Date: 16 May 13 - 11:57 AM

Hello Mick

I never thought it was one that would attract certain singers but, guess who now sings this and stretches it for all its worth ?

Its gone back to streets !!

Subject: RE: Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for that link, Mick. That is a very thoroughly researched article with some interesting conclusions, and anyone seriously interested in the song needs to read it. He's very sceptical about the MacColl / Mark Anderson version - the begetter of the Carthy and Simon ones, of course.   I don't think I'd agree with every last comma of it, but until I've spent a lot more time with it I wouldn't venture any kind of critique.

Subject: RE: Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: mayomick
Date: 16 May 13 - 04:40 PM

"Sober and grave grows merry in time"


"The point about what I shall hereafter call mondegreens, since no one else has thought up a word for them, is that they are better than the original."
Sylvia Wright

Subject: RE: Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:23 AM

There's more about this song and the Anderson, MacColl, Carthy, Simon and Garfunkel version in the forthcoming issue of English Dance & Song, written by Mike Bettison. on the doormats in just over a week's time.
Derek Schofield