BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers

Subject: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 07:21 AM

...hopefully...

BBC article

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 07:41 AM

Well Lizzie, let's hope it catches on eh!

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 07:54 AM

:0) xxx

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:41 AM

The problem seems to be that they will only release on a case by case basis involving

1. Expensive legal representation costing the petitioner thousands of pounds.

2. Involvement of the police in support (Richard Bridge can attest to the difficulties of achieving THAT).

3. Only releasing the IP address, which could mean having to find which of a number of individuals was the perpetrator ("Not me Guv, it was Jim"...."No, it wasn't me, it was Bert). You get the idea.

And if you find the culprit you can expect all his/her mates to be on your back tomorrow.

Good luck with that.

What is needed is to block the MAC address, and the IP, so that it won't matter if Jim is allowing Bert to use his PC in this cowardly fashion, followed by giving the street address and real name to the police and the lawyers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:53 AM

.. or just resist joining and using any social network sites in the first place.....


punkfolkrocker - proud to be an unsociable reclusive hermit since before Windows 98 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 05:09 PM

All bullies are cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 05:58 PM

All bullies are cowards but several conspicuous ones have their own TV shows and are very popular, especially with people of such puny intellect that they don't even recognize that what they watch is just glorification of the bullies.

The court order for FB release of the "identities" was reported a week or two ago. It's good to see, and is new news, that FB has decided to comply with the order since they've resisted - or claimed that they resisted - some previous similar demands.

Quite a few reports of court orders, against FB and several other popular sites, have faded away without any subsequent reporting of whether, or to what extent, the sites ever complied with what "the news" said was demanded.

Although it's sort of a repulsive idea, it's marginally possible that the association with Facebook may even be enough to elicit some future reporting of whether what's (still pending) to be released can be usefully applied to produce any legal results at all.

John

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 02:33 PM

"".. or just resist joining and using any social network sites in the first place.....""

I never had any intention of joining FB or any other such until real world friends told me that FB pages were purporting to be me and two Club organisers cancelled gigs because they felt their members wouldn't like my political stance (I was portrayed as a Fascist supporter).

In order to find out what is being posted in your name and take action to report it you have to be a member, so you can be adversely affected even if you don't join.

That, to me, is the most deplorable state of affairs, that they increase their membership and their income by having non members bullied and forcing them to join in order to deal with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 06:18 AM

Over a month later and I have seen no further action. Anyone know what is going on? If nothing else it may get people to realise that they need to think twice before creating accounts using false IDs. It amazed me to think that some people were stupid enough to believe their postings were anonymous! Everything on the internet can be and is monitored. Especialy those who complain most and shout loudest!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 08:51 AM

It can be Dave, but not by everyone and in many cases only at the behest of "proper authorities" and/or with the co-operation of those who provide internet services. And the co-operation of Facebook is by no means a foregone conclusion. I'll leave it there for the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:15 AM

bullies? abusers? It was worse than that. She was "portrayed as a paedophile and drug dealer by internet trolls."

That is clearly libel. I hope the court screws those liars to the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:55 AM

It is certainly extreme, leeneia, but I, and many others, have been portrayed as right wing thugs and bullies by similar trolls on facebook and even some on here! I am lucky in that I know they can do me no harm. But it has cost some people a lot of heartache and some artists have had their reputations, and therfore earning capacity, sullied.

I know what you mean about FB, Richard, and I will not hold my breath either.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:41 AM

My point is that it's not just extreme, it's flat-out illegal.

Me, I'm never going to join Facebook.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:18 PM

Leenia, you conflate "civilly actionable" with "criminous". The two are not the same.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 12:36 PM

I guess leeneia has criminal libel in mind. Calling somebody a paedophile certainly fitted the bill for that.

I didn't realize it had been abolished in England until five minutes ago. Maybe it's still on the books where she is.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 01:36 PM

Why do people expose themselves in Facebook?

I can't understand their lack of concern for their privacy.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:18 PM

Q, for one reason, see my previous explanation.

They only take complaints from members.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:56 PM

"punkfolkrocker Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:53 AM
.. or just resist joining and using any social network sites in the first place.....

AMEN! Use a little common sense and don't make it possible for these folks to abuse you!

"Social Networking" sites are simply a scheme to make gobs of money from uninformed & gullible narcissists. Don't enrich the folks that own' em & take some responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:04 AM

I read your messages, Don, and I sympathize. However, I think the chances of anybody starting a campaign against a little-known person like me are quite remote, so I'm staying away from Facebook.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:38 PM

I think the chances of anybody starting a campaign against a little-known person like me are quite remote

Sorry leneia but that just ain't true. Dozens of people on Mudcat have already been 'exposed' on facebook as right wing thugs. You could well be amonst them as could Greg F or Q. If you have ANY internet presence at all someone can, will and possibly already has harvested your postings for ther own nefarious purposes.

I am only visible to friends on facebook - always have been. Yet a 'liitle-known person like me' WAS targeted. As I said earlier they were on a loser as I know they can do me no harm but why should people who rely on internet publicity for gigs and self-promotion be subjected to attacks by these idiots. It is just not good enough to say 'do not put your details on the internet'. May as well ask artists to get gigs by sitting in caves!

Having a presence on Facebook was NOT an issue. Being publicly associated with Folk Music and, in particular, Folk against Facsism, was.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:21 AM

No, Dave, you're wrong also. In the Mudcat instance, it is simply a troll who knows how to push buttons that people react to. Since so many here are involved with folk music, that was a big button. Politics, racism, religion, they're all simply hot buttons. It never actually was about the BNP or the FAF. It was about trolling.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:44 PM

How am I wrong SRS? Whether it was a troll or a politcal activist is irrelevent. In fact, in this discussion it being a troll is more relevent! It was someone who saw identities on one site, Mudcat in this case, and used Facebook to spread lies about them. My point is that it is no use whatsoever to advocate having no facebook profile. A troll will pick up your details wherever they are and the more people use the internet to publicise themselves, as they must nowadays if they want bookings/ticket sales/whatever, the more they are open to this type of abuse.

And please note, in the above discussions I never once suggested that the troll was a right wing activist - Just that they portrayed mudcat members, particularly FAF ones, as such.

But let us not move too far from the point - That being that FB should be taking actions against ALL such abuse and while the poor lady in this case has suffered more than most, she is not the only one. And still they do nothing...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:29 PM

""It never actually was about the BNP or the FAF. It was about trolling.""

Try telling that to the two organisers who cancelled my gigs as a result, and that was before I was a member of any social networking site.

The damage was exactly the same.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:57 PM

I understand that, Don - the people/employers who found the fake accounts read what the troll wanted them to see in order to make mischief. He would do it in any way that makes the mischief - it just happens that many cases the right wing politics was enough to cause the problem.

In other instances he has set up fake accounts that he linked to real online groups, like Flickr photo groups from Anytown, USA. Here's an illustration: people in education jobs might appear to have porn accounts of barely-legal young women, and the troll linked up with photo groups in Anytown, USA. This is of course so they might be recognized by their constituents and embarrassed, or worse. He's just a nasty SOB and does whatever it takes to cause his targets trouble or harm. Don't let the politics confuse you - that was just the weapon of choice in those instances.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:54 AM

Do you really read into my posts on this thread that I am placing any importance on his method of harming people?

If so, I can't think why!

All of my posts were directed towards those who are saying that if you avoid Facebook and similar sites, everything will be fine and you will be left alone.

NOT SO!

All this happened before I ever took any notice of Facebook, let alone joined.

The organisers cancelling gigs informed me as to the source of their disquiet.

My gripe is that I had to join to find out what was being said and complain, and my complaints were treated with complete contempt and nothing done about the troll.

So if any of you think it can't happen to you because you're not a member, Dream On!

Maybe the message will get through when you start losing gigs and money.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:25 AM

Don, what I'm saying is that every time you complain about it, your bitching and moaning gives the troll a little orgasm. It doesn't matter when you joined or why you joined, you joined in order to complain about the troll. Who loves to read your complaints here because he knows he's hit a nerve.

The troll has been taken down many times from facebook, he just comes back because facebook doesn't care very much. Max has no control over all of those other platforms that the troll uses. The law is changing the amount of attention facebook must pay, and he'll go away again. He knows he cost you jobs, so he'll keep putting up fake accounts that attempt the same thing. He'll go to jail one of these days - I suspect that might be where he was for a few months when it was so quiet. The law is shifting in your favor, and it'll shift faster if you'll stop bitching and ask quietly for help.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM

Let's not post links to the troll's activity, Lizzie. It's more of the attention he craves. This is old stuff, most people are onto him and laugh about it. You need to also. As to who is in the photos, he harvests them from public sites and un-guarded facebook pages only because you respond.

That's the key - you respond. Ignore the jerk. Anyone can report a spoof account and get rid of it quietly. Facebook is slow, but they do eventually respond.

From the BBC: http://bbc.in/M9QGV3
From Information Week: http://bit.ly/NdGcjs
From Bloombery BusinessWeek: http://buswk.co/MydRoP

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:18 AM

If gorillas can dismantle troll traps so can the rest of us. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:59 PM

That is so cool SRS :-) (Is it still cool to say cool are am I being bad? Or is bad good? Ah well...)

I don't think it was anyones intention to feed any cave-dwellers though. I just wanted to point out that Facebook accounts are an irrelevence in this case and that Facebook, even though it is making the right noises, is still being far too slow about it.

Still, these things do take time and I appreciate what you are saying, as well as the work you put in. So I, for one, am going to heed those sage words and hope all the traps will eventualy be dismantled :-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:54 PM

""The law is shifting in your favor, and it'll shift faster if you'll stop bitching and ask quietly for help.""

Do you really believe that I haven't tried that. Facebook isn't slow! Facebook doesn't give a shit as long as the advertising revenue keeps coming and you don't have the cash to sue, and if you believe anything else you are delusional.

Richard gets partial results because they found out he's a lawyer. I get platitudes without results.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 01:01 PM

Don, write as succinct a report as possible ahead of time, then click on one of the photos of you in the offending facebook account and at the bottom of the image you can choose to report it. Facebook assumes you know the person you're reporting, there is no way around it, so choose "acquaintance" and then you can click through to a page with a form where you can paste your complaint. I suggest you include the links to various social media places that are abusing your photo to show a pattern because we all know it is the same person with all of the same photos.

You can include links to stories about it, in case they think you don't know they're supposed to stop letting people set up stalker accounts:

Have you read all of the stories about how facebook is now going to be forced to reveal the IP or MAC address of trolls so they can be sued by victims? Here are some examples.
From the BBC: http://bbc.in/M9QGV3
From Information Week: http://bit.ly/NdGcjs
From Bloombery BusinessWeek: http://buswk.co/MydRoP
This is what is happening - and this is why you need to act.

Anyone who is being stalked can do this. And if enough of you did so, most of this would just go away.

How do I report a fake facebook account that's pretending to be me?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:02 PM

Bullies are predominately psychopathic. 3 out of 100 people are psychopaths but only a very small number of those are killers.
Mostly they are the ambitious leaders and bullies by charm or intimidation we all have the misfortune of working for or with.

Too bad so many people reject the shy empathic folks and fall for the psychopaths.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:25 PM

That was Donuel. Please use a guest name if you post in this thread, it is being moderated.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 04:14 AM

facebook[imo] is about selling ads, they invriably side with the establishment,,because they need the establishments money through ads to finace the site, for example[as i understand it] one person was banned for making criticisms of the irish government on the fine gael website[whatever happened to freedom of speech., yetthis poor woman has been libelled and nothing was done
facebook do silly things like stop people making friends for a week, if they have sent out friend requests to unknown people.
FACEBOOK Like to be seen to be doing something,but appear to rarely tackle serious abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:27 AM

You're right, Dick, facebook is now about selling ads, and the more eyeballs they can generate (even fake ones) the more their ad revenues increase. They have to be pressed to take down the attack accounts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: ollaimh
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:17 PM

i was being slandered on the internet years ago. i didn't even know about it untill a friend forwarded me a copy. i sued for libel. in canada that cuts through all the bullshit. we got the names etc and they paid damages.lucky for me these were silly people in a recrational game, and it had no effect on my income. now when i show up on discussion lists where they are , they disappear. they learned that you are accountable for what you post on the web.

so this poor woman should sue for libel. the british libel rules are not much different than in canada.

since i did my suit there was a high profile case in ontario where one brother made an internet site calling his brother a clown etc. the ontario court of appeal ruled that this is no different than libel written on paper and that the internet address of the house wherre the computer was was enough proof of the identity of the libeler, as it was his house. essentially they said prove it was someone else using your computer at your house. no other household members came forward--surprise surprise, as they would have the liability. civil liability is less stringent than criminal liability.

so don you should sue for libel. fb would have to provide the identity. if there have been many such attacks it is likely the person doing it has left mistakes in hiding his identity. now it helps to have a law degree. however when i did my suit i did get a lawyer. i told him if he would do the suit on a contingency basis i would proceed and if not i would let it go. he took the case. before that i had not done much defamation law. from the suit i learned the ropes and would happiuly do such a suit myself if necessay. however since then no one has said anything about mje that was clearly actionable. close on occasion but unless its cleacut i am not an advocate of litigation. it's a lot of work and worry. besides i have occasionally threatened to sue since and that has usually had the desired effect of silencing defamers.

so don, sue for libel. you have an especially good case if you have lost gigs.that's loss of income. you don't need to prove loss of income for libel but you do for slander in most of canada.

facebook, yahoo and others have considered not operating in canada due to the strigent libel laws. in the united states of litigation the rules are much more lax, if you are libelled from a non canadian address you can sue in canada under canadian law, that is a real surprise to americans who say almost anything on the internet, it seems. they are much more worried about free speach. i don't share their worry.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: ollaimh
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:57 PM

i say all that fully aware that i posted on this site facts that could have relulted in my being sued for libel. these were against a certain german doctor who i personally heard make holocoustb denial statements and who used to sing hitler yoiuth songs at his well known folk groupp.

of course i would have welcomed a lawsuit. and still would, although as a matter of law in canada you cannot defame the dead. then the bodyguard of liars all around the nice german man would have been subpoenned and had to testify, which of course they could not.
the nice german man faced these accusations all his life in vancouver but never sued--why, because he would have to take the witness stand and be cross examined.

you really bhave to prove defamation if you allege it. it's not so easy when you have something big to hide. i hope his family concocts a libel suit, but they won\t becasuse i can cross examine them all and call the many witnesses who heard and saw the very same things i did.

but i better stop joe defends the nice german folk singer

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:21 AM

Please Olly. UK libel law is not the same as Canadian, and the position about enforceability between U and US is very odd. THere are snags with Norwich Pharmacal rules and enforcing a Norwich Pharmacal order in the USA is likely to be tricky.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:18 AM

Facebook stock is down 10%, and employees seem ready to sell their stocks in mid August. I will not be sad to see Facebook go tits up. They have treated their base with contempt. Facebook pages can be bot-generated, and the scheme to sell products/ads based on your advertisement profile just isn't really working.

Facebook has a few good uses, but from what I've seen it is meant to appeal to people with a thirty second attention span. Blathering twits with instant like/dislike buttons, a poorly-thought out construct in the first place.

Facebook has not given a rat's ass about identity theft. Slow response and it seems they have done little if anything to curb it. I hope they go down the tubes for that. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: ollaimh
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:13 PM

the uk and canadian laws are much more similar than to the american laws, and you can sue facebook and the john doe libeller in the uk and collect against assets in the uk. in fact don would just need to sue in the uk and forgo damages against fb, just get the identity information and seek damamges and an injunction against the uk libeller. assuming he is in the uk. and i would be surprised if there was an americaqn cyber stalking don in the uk. although wierder things have happened.fb has some uk assests to collect against and would likely cooperate once they had a court order against them. they would avoid damages by cooperating.

if it turns out to be libel from a far well then there are some criminal avenues to be tried and reciprocial enforcement of judgements treraty. however fb would police the guy much more.

Subject: Tech: Proxy servers and IP masking
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM

A word of warning to those who use the above and email anonymisers. Typical legal T&Cs here - http://hidemyass.com/legal/

Users may have their details disclosed to comply with legal obligations - yadda yadda yadda.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 03:56 AM

Olly - read my lips. UK court orders are only enforceable in the US by fresh legal action and US law specifically bars the enforcement of some types of UK awards.

If you think that Facebook has assets in the UK against which enforcement of a money judgment would be possible, please give reasons.

Please identify how a UK order of specific performance (eg to do something for example reveal information) can be enforced against a company and persons in the USA. That can ONLY be done under US law.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 05:24 AM

Leenia (assuming that that is really you), the band of reasonable responses is (generally) permitted. Impersonation, stalking, harassment - and indeed violence and threats, overt or tacit of violence - are all outside that band and serve mainly to remind us of the limitations of those who resort to them. And trolls are not the many, nor indeed are racists or others of the extreme right (although by the standards of the rest of the world quite a lot of the USA is engulfed by the extreme and irrational right).   Social progress is furthered by the expression of proper opinion. The spirit of Chamberlain is not the appropriate response to offensive and sociopathic social views and political behaviour.

..........................Not leeneia, as you suspected. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:37 PM

Ollaimh,

There is another point you may have overlooked.

In the UK, there is no legal aid system for libel suits, so suggesting to a pensioner that he sue at his own expense is neither practical nor helpful.

Richard could probably confirm what the likely cost of such action might be, which would, I think, be at least a five figure sum.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:46 PM

At least, probably.

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:35 PM

At first glance it would appear that since FaceBook requires you to identify yourself in order to get an account, it would be quite easy for them to comply with the order to identify the abusers who were the original subject of this thread.


BUT .....


Facebook says there are 83,000,000 persons using Facebook accounts with false IDs.

... (that they know about).

John

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 10:46 PM

Zuckerberg himself is guilty of this - they set up a facebook page for their puppy, Beast, when they got him. It helps reduce some of the pet traffic on people pages. Beast the dog. There is the harmless variety of page, and then there is the predatory type of page.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:48 AM

JiK - they require you to state your identity - different thing. And they do not accept through their usual channels a "report" that someone else is being identified

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:14 AM

PS - I meant "impersonated".

Subject: RE: BS: FB to release ID of bullies/abusers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:07 AM

They do, sometimes right away, sometimes it takes a while. And sometimes they get it all in one fell swoop.

SRS