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BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....

GUEST,josepp 16 Jun 12 - 02:31 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,josepp 16 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM
catspaw49 16 Jun 12 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM
JohnInKansas 16 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM
Don Firth 16 Jun 12 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 12 - 04:31 PM
Leadfingers 16 Jun 12 - 04:34 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 12 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Max Reiner 16 Jun 12 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jun 12 - 05:35 PM
Jeri 16 Jun 12 - 06:01 PM
catspaw49 16 Jun 12 - 06:02 PM
Bernard 16 Jun 12 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jun 12 - 06:31 PM
artbrooks 16 Jun 12 - 06:39 PM
gnu 16 Jun 12 - 06:45 PM
Bobert 16 Jun 12 - 06:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jun 12 - 07:00 PM
Jeri 16 Jun 12 - 07:22 PM
Dave MacKenzie 16 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM
Leadfingers 16 Jun 12 - 07:29 PM
bobad 16 Jun 12 - 07:43 PM
Janie 16 Jun 12 - 07:44 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 12 - 07:49 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 12 - 07:51 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jun 12 - 07:52 PM
Janie 16 Jun 12 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,Dharmabum 16 Jun 12 - 08:27 PM
Bill D 16 Jun 12 - 08:30 PM
gnu 16 Jun 12 - 08:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jun 12 - 10:16 PM
Bobert 16 Jun 12 - 10:41 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jun 12 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 12 - 12:45 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jun 12 - 01:54 AM
Dave Hanson 17 Jun 12 - 05:17 AM
Leadfingers 17 Jun 12 - 06:48 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Jun 12 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,josepp 17 Jun 12 - 11:59 AM
Little Hawk 17 Jun 12 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,josepp 17 Jun 12 - 12:37 PM
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GUEST,josepp 17 Jun 12 - 12:48 PM
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Barb'ry 17 Jun 12 - 01:03 PM
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akenaton 17 Jun 12 - 05:59 PM
catspaw49 17 Jun 12 - 06:30 PM
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GUEST,josepp 19 Jun 12 - 12:22 PM
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Elmore 19 Jun 12 - 03:54 PM
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Midchuck 29 Apr 14 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Patsy 29 Apr 14 - 11:43 AM
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Ebbie 30 Apr 14 - 12:27 AM
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GUEST,LynnH 30 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Apr 14 - 12:44 PM
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Subject: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:31 PM

I understand that some people might feel the need to change genders. But I don't think that gives them the right to be considered actual members of that gender. Uh-oh, look out, I'm being terribly unfair and un-PC again.

I don't care if a guy changes his gender but he has no right to expect me to think of him as a woman. Frankly, I don't. I think of him as what he is when you scrape away all the PC bullshit, all the makeup, all the feminine clothing, all the wigs and girly hairstyles, all the plastic surgery, all the lifelong estrogen shots he needs to take to maintain this facade--a castrated male.

Do I think they should be allowed to compete in beauty pageants that are supposed to feature women? No. I don't really care, though, because I don't watch that shit anyway. But if I was a judge in one of those things and I knew certain contestants were transgender males, they are automatically discounted. I won't consider them for two seconds. Why? Because they're men!

I get tired of this whining I keep reading about in the news: "I'm a beautiful, vibrant woman!" No, you're not. You're a bloke who cut his big sazech off so he can prance around in makeup and dresses without feeling guilty about being a man. You can get married to a man and if you're happy with each other, that's fine with me. You can dress how you want, I don't care. But DON'T tell me how I have to regard you.

And, yes, I think you need to let a man know you're transgender before you get into a relationship. He has a right to know whther you think you're a woman or not.

To me it's as silly as if some white man surgically changed himself into a black man and then starts telling me i have to regard him as a black man. No, I don't. I would have to regard him as an idiot though.

Have at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM

Righto. Now I know exactly what you think about this, I don't have to wonder about it any longer, and I can get on with something else. Much obliged. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM

Oh dear! Had an embarrassing surprise after picking someone up in a bar, have we?

----

From all I've heard and read, men who have become women have always thought of themselves as female and it was their lives before the operation (and all that goes with it) that felt fake and unreal to them.

Do their opinions count, or only yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM

No, I have had no embarrassing episodes. I read about some transgender people whining that the rest of us must accept them as their new gender. Sorry, but no. And I don't give a damn how they regarded themselves their whole life. That doesn't give them the right to demand that I regard them the same way.

People need to think about the consequences of their actions BEFORE they do them and not expect the rest of the world to change for them after the fact.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, ask yourself if you could marry someone who was transgender. If yes, fine. I don't care one way or another. If no, then don't get on my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:07 PM

I knew a nice couple who were cross dressing transgenders. Probably scare the shit out of Josepp.....but I figure someone already has.................LMAO.........Tell us the whole story. Was the "she" a "he" or were you going the other way and the "he" was a "she" or what???? Inquiring minds don't really give a shit but find your rant humorous as hell.........


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM

Yes..absolutely you should tell someone you are dating. There are other things that should be standard disclosure as well..what medications you are on for what. Other than that, I have no input. I have read that we are going to see a whole range of gender possibilities in the future..or now really..due to drugs, hormonal treatments etc..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM

I have known at least three persons whom I have met, and know of a similar number from the immediately prior generation, who were born with all of the "equipment" of both sexes. In these half-dozen cases the exceedingly rare decision of the parents was to leave them alone with what they were born with, at least until the child could decide how they wanted to be recognized. The decisions of the persons affected varied. All of them suffered some difficulties from refusual of some of their associates to accept their condition, but for the most part they lived out their lives as well as others with lesser anomolies of body features.

The much more common response has been to surgically alter the infant, and let the parents choose which sex they should be. The surgical procedure is a lot simpler than altering the emotional responses, and at least half of the parents apparently choose the wrong one, according to numerous reports from the kids when they've matured.

I see no reason to expect that mismatches between the "sense" persons have of what they are should depend absolutley on what particular visible accidents of birth may have occured, and no reason not to allow as much choice, growth, development, and when necessary, medical alteration as is needed for the individual to be as happy as they can be. If the choice is to be free, then the choice must be accepted by their associates - otherwise the expressed opinions of others will be a tremendous barrier to their own choices.

Certainly a person who knows they are unable to bear children should make that known to a potential mate, along with whether they're addicted to legal or illegal drugs, unable to hold a job, leave the cap off the toothpaste and the seat up on the crapper, or any other "little quirks" that might affect the compatibility of the potential relationship, but demanding that they "wear a label" at all times because "somebody might fuck them by accident" (the only concern that's really evident in the first post?) is closely akin to the "scarlet letter" of centuries' old bigotry.

It's simply time to get over it, and I woud urge that we all make an effort to do so.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:18 PM

A non-issue.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:31 PM

I suspect a guy or gal would eventually figure it out for themselves. And, I recon it all would be their business - not ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:34 PM

A very good friend of mine was becoming ill with the effort of   'adopting the male persona' evry morning , so he had the op is now content to live as a woman I say Damn Good luck to 'her'. I sure
as hell cant imagine the mental strain involved in that decision .


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:00 PM

Good ol' Josepp- holding up his end as an obnoxious, prating bigot.

Big surprise, yes?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Max Reiner
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:30 PM

Quite frankly, transgenders are mentally ill.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:35 PM

So are people who live in NYC. It goes with the turf.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:01 PM

Control freaks who believe they can tell other people how to live are just screwed. It doesn't work unless all the other people know the control freaks are in charge of them. Can be amusing to watch the control freaks try though... up to a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:02 PM

Greg, I was just completely shocked myself. Totally flabbergasted! I am glad he got that off his chest and can now start on other things that annoy him.........like people who think perhaps. Yeah, that'd be a good one for him to address.......................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:04 PM

Just because someone doesn't see things your way doesn't necessarily make them 'mentally ill'. To hold that belief is much the same as racism and homophobia.

Someone who feels the need to 'change gender' usually has to go through a lengthy process of interviews and counselling and living as a 'pre-op' before they are permitted by the medics to go through with what some people see as 'self mutilation'.

Changing gender is of no interest to me, nor are those who have undergone such a change. However, I do not think it gives me the right to sit in judgement on what they have done, or are about to do when those who have been trained in such matters deem that they have made their decision rationally and in an informed way.

On a personal level I find it difficult to regard a transgender person, be they pre-op or post-op, to be anything other than the gender with which they were born. Okay, they may think like the opposite sex (though I somehow doubt that!) and they may feel more comfortable adopting that persona - they may even cosmetically appear to be a different gender... but that's as far as it goes.

As 'Guest' said, it's their business, not ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:31 PM

This so-called issue reminds me of Yossarian's plight in Heller's 'Catch 22'. Yossarian doesn't want to participate in the war. Why? Because people are trying to kill him. However, because he's sane enough to recognize that, he's too sane to be taken off active duty.

There are always twits coming along to decide who is right and who is wrong, as if their opinions--and that's what they are--mean something to the wider world. They don't. The trans-gendered people I have met have made a decision that is right for them. They didn't consult me in the first place so I assume they feel no need to consult me after the operation.

The reference to t-g people as being mentally ill: who asked?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:39 PM

I can't see that it the business of anyone except the individual and those he/she is very close to. Certainly, it's none of mine (or josepp's)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:45 PM

Technical question. Does transgender include guys with breast implants?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:56 PM

Here's another way perspective, joez...

You meet the woman of your dreams... She is drop-dead gorgeous, has that little laugh where she flicks her long blond hair just the way that turns you on... Best of all, she is into you... She listens to you, laughs at your lousy jokes and loves you like you have never been loved... Got it???

So a year into your relationship you wake up one day thinkin', "I gotta marry this woman" so you buy the ring, take her to the most romantic place you know, get down on one knee and ask her to marry you...

She looks down at you and says, "Joseph, you know I love you with all my heart and would love to be your wife but there is something that you need to know..............

Get it now???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:00 PM

"Sex" and "gender" aren't synonyms.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:22 PM

From Wikipedia:
Transgender (play /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

    "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."
    "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."
    "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

A transgender individual may have characteristics that are normally associated with a particular gender, identify elsewhere on the traditional gender continuum, or exist outside of it as "other", "agender", "Genderqueer", or "third gender". Transgender people may also identify as bigender, or along several places on either the traditional transgender continuum, or the more encompassing continuums which have been developed in response to the significantly more detailed studies done in recent years.
---------------------------------
Bobert, I don't get it. He'd probably freak out. It's not about her, it's about him.

I think the world changes and people can't adapt so they blame others. "It's YOUR fault society no longer feels it's acceptable to sneer at you and I can't/won't stop."

I remember--maybe we all can--when some white people would refer to people as "nigger" and those who didn't like it would mostly just ignore them. Gradually, that changed and most places I know of, if that happened, the person who used the word AT somebody would get an earful, lose friends, or get fired or get punched.

I have little respect for people who hate and/or hurt others because of their bigotry. They are, however, lost in a world that has change to the point where their beliefs and behavior makes them no longer fit in. If they can't try to learn, there's nothing left to them but speech. (If they wish to avoid prison.)

Personally, I find seeing people as people first, without labels, makes it less likely to leave me looking like a jerk.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM

There's no gender in English, just sex.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:29 PM

Like so many things - Classic are the recruits in the forces asking each other what will they do first time they are under fire - until you are there you dont know ! And making decisions without information about another persons mental state is even sillier .
When you have watched a good friend go through months of mental anguish , and then seen the change when the decision is finally made
you MAY just have a slightly different opinion !


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:43 PM

GUEST,Max Reiner if by mentally ill you mean that they are suffering mental anguish by living their social lives with the apparatus of a gender they were born into but knowing in their minds that they really of the opposite gender then you are right.

If, on the other hand, you believe that they are mentally ill for feeling that they were born of the wrong gender, then you are sadly misinformed and I suggest that you educate yourself on the issue.

You can start by reading some scholarly literature on the subject: transgenderism and the concept of gender


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Janie
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:44 PM

I understand that some people might feel the need to change from being jerks or trolls. But I don't think that gives them the right to be considered actual members of thinking, civil people. Uh-oh, look out, I'm being terribly unfair and un-PC again.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:49 PM

What about people who deeply sense that they have been born on the wrong planet?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:51 PM

Or to the wrong family?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:52 PM

Or in the wrong nation?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Janie
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:20 PM

Interesting radio show this afternoon on that "wrong family" theme, LH. Don't know if you can get the podcast from Canada, but it was this week's "This American Life" program on NPR, produced by Chicago Public Radio/PRi.

But I digress.

What about people who were children, and became adults?

Or parents who were young and became old?

Or people who were blond haired, and became brown haired?

What about rose bushes that are red, but sport blossoms that are orange? (more common than non-gardeners know.) Makes no sense to me that I should have to acknowledge that bloom there is orange. Nosiree. That is a red rose bush, it says so right on the label and it has always bloomed red, and I don't care if that one branch has a few blooms that are coral orange. I'm gonna call them red anyways.

So there!


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Subject: Lyr Add: RUFUS AND BEVERLY (Mark Graham)
From: GUEST,Dharmabum
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:27 PM

Guess it's 'bout time to throw some music into this thread.

RUFUS AND BEVERLY
(Mark Graham)

Rufus could play the piano
And he drove an American car.
He worked nine to sundown
In an office downtown
To save us from nuclear war.
Beverly came from Seattle,
Played the mouth harp quite well, so they say.
She used to write songs
In an old-timey style
In hopes she could sell them one day.

Rufus and Bev became sweethearts
And nature would not be denied.
They did the things lovers do under the covers
As happy as clams at high tide.
Then one morning said Rufus to Beverly,
As they lay in the fondest embrace,
"Dear, I have to confess
With some minor distress
There's an issue I fear we must face.

"For this body you see here before you
Was once more like yours than like mine,
And I sought the compliance of medical science
To change to the sex masculine."
Beverly stared back in amazement,
Then said, "Rufus, don't rue what you've done.
For I have surrendered a masculine gender
For this other more feminine one."

So, these lovers went back to their passions,
And their passions were scarcely diffused.
And the knot was soon tied, though deep down inside,
They were ever so slightly confused.


Recorded by Bryan Bowers on "For You," 1982,
and by the Rude Girls on "Mixed Messages," 1990.
filename[ RUFUSBEV
MG


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:30 PM

Or in the wrong century...


I have known personally 2 'serious' changers. I respected their need and decision, though the 'visual' change was not convincing. It is very difficult to assume another gender and pass convincingly. Some people just 'know' that the body they were given does not match the brain chemistry and hormones that came with that body. It ain't fair...

I have met several others who had switched or were planning it. In all cases, I tried to adapt to their new identity, as it was not my place to judge. We humans come in many assorted types, and we'd best adapt to each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:57 PM

Bill D... "We humans come in many assorted types, and we'd best adapt to each other."

Unfortunately, there are some who can't adapt, accept or adopt a compassionate viewpoint. Fact is, not all humans have the intelligence to be able to do so. Go for a walk or a drive and observe... there are a lot of people who can't... well... they are just stunned as me arse.

Yes, I know that isn't news. It's still soooo sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:16 PM

josepp wrote I read about some transgender people whining that the rest of us must accept them as their new gender. Sorry, but no. And I don't give a damn how they regarded themselves their whole life. That doesn't give them the right to demand that I regard them the same way.

So this tells me that you treat men and women differently. Why? Is one sex superior? You won't treat a transgender man like a man because he was a woman and women are inferior? I bet this means you think less of men who choose to be women because they want to be women, and you won't accept women who choose to be men because you know that in his heart of hearts he was once a physical woman?

Unless someone tells you that this is the case, and I don't know why they would, then all I can say is that you're a fool for treating the sexes with different levels of respect, and if you feel you've been fooled into treating a transgendered person different from their original sex, well, you are a fool and that's not their fault.

BTW: I notice that josepp hasn't been back. I suspect too much common sense and disdain have chased his sorry bigotted ass out of this thread.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:41 PM

Hey, love who you love....

Simple...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:32 AM

Given that josepp's real desire may have simply been to ruffle some feathers and provoke a lengthy thread full of the kind of strong reactions that might be expected here, Stilly, he may just be sitting back and congratulating himself on having succeeded in those objectives.

In other words, I think he was probably just shit disturbing because that's what he enjoys doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:45 AM

GUEST,Max Reiner: "Quite frankly, transgenders are mentally ill."

Speaking of which:(Recently posted on another thread...)



Just because someone doesn't love you the way you want them to doesn't mean they don't love you with all they have. Ralph and Edna were both patients in a mental hospital. One day while they were walking past the hospital swimmingpool, Ralph suddenly Jumped into the deep end.

He sank to the bottom of the pool and stayed there.

Edna promptly jumped in to save him. She swam to the bottom and pulled him out. When the Head Nurse Director became aware of Edna's heroic act, she immediately ordered her to be discharged from the hospital, as she now considered her to be mentally stable.

When she went to tell Edna the news she said,
'Edna, I have good news and bad news. The good news is you're being discharged, since you were able to rationally respond to a crisis by jumping in and saving the life of the person you love. I have concluded that your act displays sound mindedness.

The bad news is Ralph hung himself in the bathroom with his bathrobe belt right after you saved him. I am so sorry, but he's dead.'

Edna replied, 'He didn't hang himself, I put him there to dry.

How soon can I go home?'

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:54 AM

You're undoubtedly correct, Little Hawk. Trolling for entertainment is such an unattractive activity. It's one of those immature impulses where just because one can, doesn't mean one should.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 05:17 AM

Peronally I find this so called josepp offensive in the extreme, guest josepp at that, he doesn't behave like a guest.

I though guests weren't allowed to start BS threads ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 06:48 AM

Unless someone has stolen a name , josepp IS a member


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 10:52 AM

People with attitudes like those expressed by josepp seem to not understand the difference between anatomy and physiology. Sexual identity is not determined by which of two available sets of genitals we are born with (anatomy). It is determined on the microscopic and biochemical levels (physiology). Assuming that an individual's having testicles means he has the same hormones sloshing around in his bloodstream in the same percentages as every other person who happens to have testicles is absurd. There are only two possible sets of gonads with which one may be born (except in the cases of hermaphrodites), but there is an infinite variety of ways in which the chemicals which are the actual determiners of sexuality may be excreted and combined. Sexual identity is not like a bar magnet with "male" on one pole and "female" on the other, but a continuum which includes all possible mixtures of maleness and femaleness.

In a way, I think it would be better is we were all born hermaphrodites. Then we would be able to use our male or female genitalia to whatever degree our individual physiologies dictate.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 11:59 AM

////What about people who deeply sense that they have been born on the wrong planet/////

Well, don't you know? We must regard them as aliens and not insult them with Star Trek conventions and tales of alien abduction because, you know, aliens aren't really like that. If you disagree then you're obviously a bigot. And if you're a skeptic, you're even worse!


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:16 PM

Believe me, I've had days when I very much had the feeling I'd been born on the wrong planet. I bet it's happened to a lot of other people too.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:37 PM

But do you regard yourself as an alien and demand that others should regard you the same way? Or would you think that such a person probably was not quite all there.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:43 PM

'Or would you think that such a person probably was not quite all there.'

I think you mean ". . . quite all here."


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:48 PM

Or what about someone who feels they were born in the wrong century? Suppose he tells you he lives in the 19th century and dresses that way and demands that you must never say the year as 2012 but rather 1812. Basket case or just someone who's a little bit different?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:54 PM

Why would anyone care so much about what OTHER people believe?

I go back to the "control freak" theory.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Megan L
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:55 PM

Just because someone marches to the rythmn of a different drum does not make them right or wrong just different. For each of us must follow our own path. It is respect and care that helps us make that journey smoother? perhaps not but it makes the journey better for us and all we meet whether thier path follows our direction or indead travels the other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Barb'ry
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:03 PM

Josepp. I don't know whether you are (justifiably) embarrassed about your initial statement and are now trying to turn the discussion into farce but your last comment seems ridiculous. People's sexual orientation or gender identification is their own - why do you feel the need to comment or ridicule what is none of your business? Judging someone else's life when their behaviour is not impinging on you/your family etc, is, in my opinion, just wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:19 PM

I am much exercised as to what triggered this thread in the first place. The thread title suggests that, either here or elsewhere, there has been a 'transgender thing' so much under discussion to such an unavoidably prominent extent that josepp just had to contribute his 5 pennorth to this unignorable ongoing controversy.

Where? Why did he feel so driven to comment on this oh-so-prominently-topical 'WHOLE ... THING'? What set all this off anyhow?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Barb'ry
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:40 PM

Actually, that's a really good point, M. Just shows how trolls manipulate!


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 02:59 PM

Lola


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 03:07 PM

Ell, Oh, Ell, Aye, LOLA


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 03:17 PM

An individual who feels so at variance with his/her plumbing that he is driven to go through the extreme hoops required to switch genders is showing the courage to step up to a problem and deal with it, which is praiseworthy. They are also showing a deep integrity to what they themselves actually fee4l, regardless of custom or expectation. Also praiseworthy. Rather than signs of mental illness, these traits are signs of above-average strength of character.

What does imply mental illness is the narrowminded reactionary responses from Josepp and Reiner upthread, who are apparently dedicated to promulgating the most arbitrary and reactionary ideas that well up inside of them without due reflection or insight. This is a study in Applied Neurosis.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 03:21 PM

A few years back, I saw a television interview (Charlie Rose, I think) with the late Quinten Crisp, an openly gay English gentleman who makes actor John Inman of the television comedy Are You Being Served? ("I'm free!") look positively macho, and who authored such bons mots as, "If you're using a public rest room and you notice a man staring at you, try to pee with style!" And "I am one of the stately homos of England!"

The interviewer noted Crisp's appearance and the somewhat androgenous way he was dressed (like the photograph above) and asked him if people ever ask him if he is a man or a woman. Crisp said that it happens all the time, and his usual response is to ask them, "Does it really matter? What did you have in mind?"

Good point!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 03:55 PM

A person who wishes to change gender may have good ... or, possibly, not so good reasons for doing so. As far as I'm concerned that person's reasons for wanting to change gender, or the steps that he/she takes to achieve his/her objectives, are none of my business. I may have some sort of opinion on the matter but would normally keep that opinion to myself because I consider that I would achieve nothing useful by airing it. The same goes for homosexuality, bisexuality etc.

On the other hand there are forms of behaviour which I wouldn't hesitate to pronounce on, because they are likely to cause harm e.g. ecocide, genocide, racism, fascism, paedophilia, some forms of political and religious extremism etc., etc. I think that josepp needs to cultivate a sense of proportion!


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 03:58 PM

I hope that someday someone who suffers from the conviction they are on the wrong planet will be able, with perseverance and courage and some dough, be able to put matters right and end up on another planet. When this occurs, they will probably expect to be treated as though they were actually ON the planet they move to, not still on the old one.

A person who changes gender has to red-do the whole learning process of style, gesture, phrasing, and methods of moving that everybody goes through from the time they first learn to walk. They have to rebuild their whole armamentum of techniques for operating in the world. The trans-gender people I have known, of whom there are several, did not spring full-blown into their target identity. It took practice. So perhaps, Josephp, you could modulate your "no way, sorry" refusal into a willingness to treat them as learners.

In my experience, once they have spent some time practicing up, they get very good at it. For most of them the fact that they are speaking "female as a second gender" (or male) is hard to detect.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 04:35 PM

I have no problem at all with the concept of transgender. Let people get on with their lives doing what gives them peace and happiness, especially if they're causing no harm at all to anyone. What does concern me is the degree of anger and hate that comes across from posts such as josepp's. That attitiude IS vicious and harmful to others, and I wonder what made him so. It often stems from bitterness or even fear. An interesting personality to analyse. I do wish that folk like him could remember that we're all human and can love and be loved. Acceptance is the key. Calm down josepp, try to understand and accept.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 04:42 PM

I knew a lovely young guy - very feminine, sensitive and compassionate character. Killed himself because he couldn't cope with the stresses that feeling like a woman in a man's body generated in him/her. He couldn't see a way out. Happily for many, there is a way out. And after all they go through to get there, I don't think they'd give a shit what Josepp may or may not think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 04:44 PM

Spot on Eliza


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 04:49 PM

Quite right CS, but his remarks could incite others to persecute and hate transgenders. If there is a law (in UK) against inciting racial hatred, his outpourings could be classed as a similar kind of force for evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 05:59 PM

I used to think I was a parrot........But i'm alright now....alright now....alright now.........


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 06:30 PM

We are possibly being too rough on Joe-boo......Really.....He could have brought the whole thing up because of the alien thing instead, to sort of deflect us. If that's it and he really believes he's from another planet but is too afraid to ask for help........Well shitfire Bub.....Lemmee help you out.   I got a brother-in-law that works for the rocketry design group with Lockheed and he can get me a missle that I can shove up your ass and send you home!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: PHJim
Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:38 AM

Those little philosophical sayings that people post on Facebook are things I often ignore, but I recall one that may be appropriate here.

"Judging people does not define who they are, it defines who YOU are."


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jun 12 - 12:05 PM

""It often stems from bitterness or even fear.""

You are right Eliza, and it comes across as very hateful.

It is more damaging to oneself than to the object.

My wife had an aunt who let bitterness take away all that was good in her life, and it made sense for me of the quote:

"Bitterness is the act of swallowing poison, hoping that someone else will die from it."

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:05 PM

Two excellent quotes from PHJim and Don. I think 'Live and let live' should be applied to anyone 'different' until and unless they are causing pain or distress to anyone else. I remember my old dad saying it isn't any of our business what people get up to sexually, what their sexual tastes or their orientation are etc. After all, they don't approach us and ask what WE do in bed do they? (Or, in this case, what we've got underneath our clothes!)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 09:41 AM

Hey, Spaw, I'd be happy to chip in on the cost of that missle.....


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 12:22 PM

////I don't think they'd give a shit what Josepp may or may not think about it////

Evidently, you care what I think. This whole thread is a string of "Nobody cares what you think, josepp" and yet you keep responding. At least I'm honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 01:00 PM

"At least I'm honest."

That is a serious disconnect in your thinking. Your honesty is not in question. Your views of others is.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 01:48 PM

josepp, in spite of the fact I don't agree with your viewpoint, you have started a very lively and interesting discussion and I've enjoyed following it. You have every right to your opinions, but I would rather you expressed them with less malice. Perhaps this was deliberate on your part, to get us all going. If so, that's manipulative. But I'm sure you'll agree it provoked many interesting and valid points. Has it at all changed your disgust of transgenders? Maybe just a little perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 01:51 PM

Josepp, the people who have responded to you on this thread are just trying to be helpful to you. Obviously, you have a problem consisting of dwelling on the nature of other people's plumbing and how they use it. They are offering you helpful advice, which may be too subtle for you. Let me translate it into language that you should be able to understand:

"Get a LIFE, man!!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 02:36 PM

"At least I'm honest."

That should have read... "At least I'm brutally honest."

I have to agree that your being honest isn't at issue. A distinct lack of compassion for your fellow man is the issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 03:54 PM

Too bad there isn't an operation that changes a-holes into decent human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:48 PM

I have only just fallen across this thread and would like to thank those members who have stood up for transexuals on both continents. It is is through open eyed and open minded people like you that transsexuals have a chanfe at an ordinary lifd.

Than you all xx


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:45 PM

"I don't care if a guy changes his gender but he has no right to expect me to think of him as a woman."

Why should you think about him at all? Why be concerned about the gender, the sex life or the genitals of some person you encounter in the street or at the grocery store? What difference does it make?

When one person encounters another, the logical response is ordinary courtesy. Feelings of disapproval or self-righteousness just burn up your energy and raise your blood pressure for no good reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Janie
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:48 PM

Excellent post, leeneia.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:30 AM

What Janie said!


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:49 AM

Only on Mudcat can someone be lauded for responding to a nearly two year old troll post...


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:18 PM

It can never be too long to say a genuine thank you though I apologise if that seems the case

Tbh I responded without noting the date. I made two bad errors and typos on this forum yesterday. I shall be better when I get better!

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:28 PM

Mauvepink, it's fine to refresh old threads.
It was picking up the OLD fight that had been dropped a couple years ago that I found typical of the current battle mentality here. People would rather react than look at whether what they're reacting to is current or the persona they're reacting at is still around.

There was way more support here than otherwise. I think there always will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 04:07 PM

Oh, dear-
Who here has gender dysphoria symptoms?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 05:37 PM

"Who here has gender dysphoria symptoms?"

I won't answer that until I know what 'gender dysphoria symptoms' means.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 06:02 PM

Think of the opposite of "dysphoria"---"euphoria".

That would be good feelings or good emotions.

dysphoria would be bad or unpleasant
feelings or emotions.

The answer to the question is that I don't.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 06:04 PM

Thanks, Uncle_DaveO.

Neither do I.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 07:01 PM

Dyspastria (from the Urban Dictionary)

When a individual selects a certian pastry from a vending machine, and instead gets the wrong pastry.

Useage : "Joe felt dyspastria when he received a cheese danish instead of a cinnamon roll."


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 07:02 PM

Opps, cinnamon boy was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 04:06 AM

Presumably, having eaten the cheese Danish, the next stage was dyspepsia?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Claire M
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM

Hiya! I'd quite happily have Brian Molko's (lead singer of Placebo – he's gorgeous) babies so I'm not bothered. I do wonder why the OP is though. As long as he let me borrow his nail varnish. I like the song, thanks for putting it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:11 AM

Couple years back, Jeri said:

Why would anyone care so much about what OTHER people believe?

I go back to the "control freak" theory.


Yeah. That probably would apply to actively proselytizing religious fundamentalists, wouldn't it? But everyone takes THEM seriously and goes out of their way not to offend them. If there were only a couple hundred such in the country, they'd be locked up so they couldn't injure themselves. It's just a matter of there being enough of you to have political power.

Before anyone asks, "Yes, and your point is?" I'll admit to being not quite sure.

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:43 AM

Could it possibly be that it is the fact that many Transgender people are stunning to look at that makes some people (men)uneasy about it? I was introduced to lady several years ago by an acquaintance who had gone through the whole process of Transgender. Her background was from Indian culture and her own family had issues about her attending any family ceremonies as a woman, the ironic thing was as a man they could accommodate the idea and allow him/her to attend. It was only acceptable for her to appear at family functions as a male as she was from birth despite the fact that she had gone through surgery and hormone treatment. She was elegant, intelligent and absolutely stunning with a model figure to match. Anyone would have been proud to have a daughter as stunning however, eventually in time her father finally accepted her as a daughter. It was her father's blessing that turned things around for her and she is now very happy fulfilled woman. Transgenders do not have an easy time and possibly suffer from bigotry and ignorance more so than a gay person coming out.

In particular I am thinking about the Ladyboys from Bangkok who are stunningly attractive but I bet there are not many hetero men who would admit to admiring their beauty or enjoying a performance or actually admit to being there! April Ashley is another beauty who made the headlines as a Transgender and I remember reading it in disbelief because I had been envious of her classic sophisticated looks when I thought she was a woman! It seems to me that the reason that more men have a problem with it is the deep down fear abd insecurity of being duped. I could be wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 04:18 PM

I read the original post.

There are some nasty opinions around here. Makes you wonder why some people find folk music interesting. Both traditional and contemporary folk music is so full of dismissing odious creatures who see different people as an object of hate without knowing anything about them. Folk can be about examining the world around you and seeing a place in society for all, it really makes you think.

How can some people shave? You have to look yourself in the eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 07:17 PM

Apart from four places I approached, out of over 20 I have attended and sung in, I have never been given a bad time by any genuine "folkie". Initially I got some stares and some sniggers, from a very limited few, but these have been cast into a very deep shadow from the light that shone from so many others. Generally I have been treated totally ordinarily and with no favour - just as it should be - and my life has only been made richer by being involved in folk music. I have known the depths of some sad people's sad minds, concommittant with the beauty that is in most others hearts.

Among your membership are several who have chatted to me in total gentlemanly and female ways. Not an ounce of prurience or disdain in anything they asked. And total confidentiality. Not one of them has 'dropped me in it' on threads ever. Several have met me. Some have sung with me regularly. It is all very normal.

The men have never shown concern, some knowing I am actually gay anyway, because our lives hve been eith music and not sex. I know so many lovely men and women on the folk scene and that is why, on seeing this thread, I said my thanks,

Its easy to hate and ridicule. It's not easy to stand up in the face of it and support those suffering from it. That is true bravery in my eyes and I am gratefully acknowledging it.

Some may now inevitably change thier minds about me as a contributor. I accept that every working day of my life. But nothing snd no-one can detract from the many good people on here and on the scene that live and let love, sing with no sting and who dare to care :)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 07:20 PM

Well said, mauvepink.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 07:53 PM

A "tip of the hat" for your last post, mauvepink. It takes courage (and integrity) to openly come forward. I cant see how that would make much of a difference to anyone. It just adds to the diversity of the community.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:04 PM

You all outed me who took the stand :)

I could not hide while others took flack for supporting the likes of me. It was time to support back

I'm nowt special and ask for no more or less than others than to live a life unmolested with good companions.

Folk is full of good companions and most of the music is okay too! Lol


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:08 PM

"I'm nowt special and ask for no more or less than others than to live a life unmolested with good companions."

IMO, it takes someone special to say that :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:17 PM

Nah...

At the end of a long day it is special to see special folk who recognise it. It's always been harder to be with me thsn be me. Many people got judged for choosing me as a friend, co-singer, or even to sit next to me and chat, initially. They are the special folk and my life is only as good as the people I have with me in it :)

I really do know "special" and never would have without me being transsexual. Special can be as simple as a smile or even hearing my name a certain way.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:28 PM

Sorry, I left the # off my last post.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 09:32 PM

All this arguing... sigh.
Mauvepink, you ARE special. You may not seem courageous from inside your own skin, but trust me, you are. There are many people who would try to melt into obscurity to escape notice. No judgement on that--they may have had more notice than is reasonable. You don't HAVE to talk about your own life. You're special-- no arguing, dammit!
;)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:27 AM

Hey! I agree with Jeri.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:02 AM

I agree with and admire all mauvepink has said. And I also think Patsy has a point. Many transgenders are indeed very attractive, and this might give rise to a certain jealousy. She also says 'trangenders do not have an easy time..' which I'm sure is true. The sooner society stops judging and being unkind to anyone slightly different, the better. People should direct their criticism at those who do harm, not those who merely wish to live their lives in peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:28 AM

Somehow I have to ask myself whether 'josepp' has perhaps had reason to look into him/her/itself and has seen something which blatantly contradicts their accepted and deep-rooted perception of themselves. Or had a best friend suddenly swapped sides? As it is the posting could almost be a job application for the Daily Mail.

Life plays its tricks on us and it's up to us to make what we can out of the situation. Living in denial ties up energy which could be put to far better uses, artistic, social, political or whatever. Accepting yourself for who and what you really are, rather than merely paying lipservice, is a release, believe me. Rather than continueing to beat your head against a wall you realise that you're standing close to a door, and that door is ajar. If only my voice was a little lighter............

Some people also need to learn that there is not simply either XY or XX. There is, on the contrary, a wide range of combinations with corresponding implications.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM

Well, I can honestly say (NOT false modesty) I certainly do not fall into any 'pretty' category. I am bad on the ears and on the eyes lol. But my friends still like me for who I am and that is why this world has hope that some day everyone will have their place that is respected by everyone else. Being jealous of me would be very silly for several reasons, except in envying the people I have in my life. They are the stars. Britain does have talent, with much heart :)

Anyone who has seen me or knows me would honestly tell you I have no pretense to being beautiful. I even wrote a song about "The Ten Pint Bitch" because men only fancy me after ten pints! lol I get the pick of the crop at the end of any night of numpties ;)

Hand on my heart. I have never had a member here or in public that treated me with less than respect to my face. I would like to think they do likewise behind my back too. I have so much respect for them for that. I am not an easy concept to get your head around sometimes. A M2F transsexual (I prefer transwomen personally) who is gay and sings female songs in a not so female voice, and male songs in a not so male voice. Who looks more like the Ugly Duchess than anything beauteous. But I think it matters not a jot to them because we all love the music. It's the common denomonator that makes us all alike in many ways. We have more things that makes us similar than dissimilar as individuals.

I am truly blessed to have a daughter and granddaughter who think the world of me too. I have so much help from singer/songwriters here in the UK and I am priveliged to be able to say I am friends with a couple. What's not to be happy about? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:50 AM

@ LynnH Hello :) I have no idea what is in my chromosomes, genes or which combination of alleles did what with me. I have no idea if my genetics are messed or if epigenetics kicked in. I only know what is in my heart and mind, and now, what is no longer in my pants! There are a lot of things I will never be able to say. I will never ever speak in a full female voice because of sinus problems. I'll never be pretty, because there is only enough concrete to go around to cover our towns so they get floods and none to spare for my face lol I'll never be a size zero. But aside from that I can do and be anything I wish to. I choose to sing. I have a lot to sing about :)


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Subject: Lyr Add: TONI WITH AN "I"
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:55 AM

Amos remarked (back in 2012) on the bravery of such people, who have the courage to face up to not just the physical and emotional, but also social barriers again and again (it doesn't happen overnight, it's not a brief upheaval and then sorted), to claim their true place.

This is indeed bravery of the highest order, and it was considering this that caused me to write the song below almost 10 years ago. The pay-back came 5-6 years later when I was contacted by a transgender person who wanted to know how I knew so much about what one goes through in such a case, and whether I had someone close to me or some other personal experience that gave insight. The truth was that I had neither; I have had three transgender acquaintances over the years, but that was all. It just seemed to make sense that, as Amos said, this was no trivial undertaking and therefore indicative of admirable bravery.

TONI WITH AN "i"

You checked in just this morning
You're waiting in your room alone,
White gown with the ties on the back.
Not much there to distract you
There's nobody that you can phone
They'd only try to stop you
But it's too late – there is no turning back.

Remember the confusion
Just round the corner after school
When little Jenny kissed you on the lips.
You knew what was expected
But you just stood there like a fool
Unwilling bystander
An actor who was handed the wrong script

    (chorus) But now it's almost over
    For after this you will not have to lie
    Your dreams are coming true now
    Tomorrow you'll be Toni with an "i"

The taunts and name-calling
Were followed by the beatings soon.
You did your best to take them in your stride.
At home no one to help you,
You might as well be from the moon.
You closed the world around you
And silently you nursed your wounded pride.

Then came the recognition
Like bolt of lightning in the dark,
That you were never different – just you.
Inside your isolation
You fanned to flames the little spark
And planned your resurrection
To find the happiness that you were due.

    (chorus) But now it's almost over
    For after this you will not have to lie
    Your dreams are coming true now
    Tomorrow you'll be Toni with an "i"

The years of pain followed
As one by one the covers fell,
Yet memories cut deeper than the knife.
But now you had a purpose:
That one day nobody could tell
The lie you had been living
And earn the prize of ordinary life.

So here you are now waiting,
Your goal is almost within sight,
A butterfly shedding its cocoon.
You pass the time erasing
The "Y" that was never right,
And practicing your new name;
The one that you'll be known by very soon.

    (chorus) But now it's almost over
    For after this you will not have to lie
    Your dreams are coming true now
    Tomorrow you'll be Toni with an "i"


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: sciencegeek
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:35 AM

the subject of gender and sex is a real can of worms... biology and sociology come into play.

speaking as a heterosexual female, I have always resented being told how I should feel or act because of my sex. I did not want to play with dolls or tea sets... and having to sit demurely because I was forced to wear a stupid dress was a crock. I no longer even own a dress, but I still have to deal with jerks who regard a woman as less able than a guy.

Because I am a civil servant and have a strong union, so I am one of the lucky gals who gets equal pay for equal work, though it's the guys who may still get promoted over us.

I will admit that I get annoyed by transgender men who act like adolescent girls... jeez, it was bad enough waiting for girls to outgrow that assinine behavior... and they want to promote it??? WTF!?!

What we really need to do is to treat individuals as that... individuals... forget about assigning roles based on race, color or sex. Let the assholes prove themselves for what they are and the rest of us stand on our own merits.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM

So nice to read some of the posts in this thread. Such a pity they appear in a thread designed to point and stare at people for not being the same as them.

At this rate we may even be able to debate and be influenced purely on the merit of the thread rather than just use it to rearrange and confirm prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:49 AM

It's neither a point-and-stare thread nor a debate. Thank goodness--a rare bit of actual discussion. It also proves that the contributors affect the direction of a thread more than the originator.

George Papavgeris's song on YouTube Toni With an "i".

I think people may not know how to act, and rather than trying to just BE and get over the discomfort, they lash out at the object of their digruntlement.

Mauvepink, I have to ask, did you mean F2M or the other way 'round. I'm confused. (Not a totally unfamiliar state for me.) Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:53 AM

@ George P

Hey George! It was me :) You sent me the CD as a gift via a mutual friend (Simon) as he had played it for me just after I had my surgery. It was an excellent insightful song... and I was truly grateful to be able to hear my name being said at the time, relating to the fifteen minutes between me seeing the anaesthetist who kept me under for 6 hours and arriving in theatre. One day I should write about those 15 minutes a song.

You are a star :)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

@ sciencegeek

Deeply agree. I always stress that everyone is individual, all sitting somewhere on a continuum of gender and sexuality. We all fit somewhere on it and there is plenty of room left. There is very much more involved in being a woman than lying in heels on a sofa reading Cosmopolitan. Real life is out there for those who wish to embrace the reality BUT for some that reality exists in fantasy and maybe some escapism. This is why I do not call myself transgender. I am transfemale and that is a done deal for me. I live, work and play as a grown woman and take what sh*it comes with that. I do not accept the insults or bigotry on any subject and my life is no different.

But, just as water finds its own level, so must the individual, and I believe that often that level is seldom equal for many individuals. So many have it far worse than I have ever or will. To each their own ability and need :)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

:-) {hugs}


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM

I seem to recall hearing about a very conservative american, republican politician who was trying to have T-people banned from running for political office and was, more or less, advocating chromosome tests for candidates.

To be perhaps slightly provocatively arrogant- I, like so many others, have to live a life that I feel at one with and not how somebody thinks I ought to live. If this involves a realignment of the assigned gender then so be it. If narrow-minded people can't accept this then it's their problem, not mine.......unless gratuitous violence is involved.

I often find myself wondering how those people who get really worked up over T-people would react if one of their children were to oame out to them as trans. Would they disown their child and then, in case of a possible resulting suicide, stand there at the grave shedding crocodile tears? Or would they honestly try to realign their attitudes and accept the 'new' son/daughter? When I chance to read articles, postings etc. by bigotted journalists and the like I sometimes feel like wishing such a fate on them, even though being T is not really a fate I'd wish on anybody. But, there are always exceptions...........

I'm old enough to have adolescence of any sort far behind me and so watch some MtF activities with detached amusement. However, please bear in mind that some people feel that they've got a lot to catch up on and in a very short time............

Talk about pontificating.............


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM

@ jeri

"Mauvepink, I have to ask, did you mean F2M or the other way 'round. I'm confused. (Not a totally unfamiliar state for me.) Thanks."

Have I confused you based on my saying F2M? My bad. Silly me! I put it the wrong way around so not your fault. Can a mudelf please edit my earlier post at 30 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM, 3rd paragraph, to M2F rather than F2M?? My error. Tupid stypo!

I can only apologise and thank you for asking. the other reference is to me being gay. I use gay as opposed to lesbian as lesbian seems political to me sometimes. I'm happy being gay! :)

(with no offence to anyone identifying as lesbian. We each define our sexuality as we feel suits)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM

@ George :-) {hugs}

I have waited since hearing that song George and chatting with you on the phone to thank you, shake your hand and maybe exchange a hug of deep gratitude. One day you may be unlucky and it will come true! ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:44 PM

In the 1950s, I was with a major oil company, in research. We were told to expect an employee from another section of the Company; new, professional level, and in training.

The person came in and at first we were non-plussed (remember, over 60 years ago) because he(?) appeared male, had a man's name, but was wearing a dress. We were a little slow to react, but then welcomed him(?) and proceeded to integrate him into our group. Nothing said, and with only occasional second glances, he was accepted.
We treated him as a person, and no problems developed. Acceptance into our activities, lunch gatherings, etc., followed without incident. Our group included both professionals and technical assistants.

Noteworthy is that an old-line oil company hired him on; at that time most employers would have avoided anyone deviating from the norm like the plague.
I also think that our reaction, for the time, was the correct one and we all learned something.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: PHJim
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:15 PM

Mauvepink, I have always considered "lesbian" to be a subset of "gay".
That is all same sex relationships are gay, but only female same sex relationships are lesbian. For this reason I use the word gay if the subject comes up.
Is there a male equivalent to the word lesbian?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: PHJim
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:24 PM

Mauvepink, I have just reread this thread and find myself admiring your comfort with yourself and your life decisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:42 PM

I just read the thread again and think the folks herein are wonderful people. I wrote a long post earlier but gave up trying to post it after ~20 attempts with three different browsers so that 'nutshell' will do for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM

I (as an elf) changed your M & F around in your post. Thanks for answering me.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:32 PM

Like I said above but without the unfortunate point scoring from Jeri.

An excellent discussion by many people but as a result of a pathetic op.

Read the op Jeri. The least you would expect from those asked to filter such things in the first place eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:54 PM

@ PHJim

Great question! I have no idea. A lot of gay men have sub names for being gay but none I know as other than light hearted and inoffensive. :)

I am happy to be gay as in homosexual. Some women do not like being considered the same as men and identify differently. I am in your school of thought. It simply means loving the same gender


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:59 PM

The last post was from me to PHJim as this is.

"Mauvepink, I have just reread this thread and find myself admiring your comfort with yourself and your life decisions. "

...as I admire all who are comfy in themselves and around others who are different (which is essentially everyone, because everyone is different). It's not so odd what I am. It's not a curse. It's all a part of nature as we all are. It is those around us who give us our comfort zones :)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:02 PM

I (as an elf) changed your M & F around in your post. Thanks for answering me.

Thanks for changing it and taking the confusion out of my silly sentence :)

It was an honest question that required an honest answer is all. Elves must be listened to! ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:15 PM

I've known one man who became a woman. I was anything but mentally ill.

It is not your plumbing that determines which sex you are, it is your mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:24 PM

One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman

Simone de Beauvoir


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM

DARE we discuss the 'celibate". They are truly messed up apparently... or so I was told rather rudely on Facebook last night. I shit you not. Idiots abound. She, whom I have never met before, responded to my joke about choosing celibacy near 20 years ago... 'not my problem you can't get laid'. Imagine that!? If someone can be hurtful and rude to my sexual choice of celibacy (and most know I ain't no prude in any way, shape or form), then... well... it's hard for me to grasp the true depths of oppression of those who actually do have a sexuality and are open about it. Just seems to me there are a pile of idiots out there that have to be educated, especially within their own souls and minds, IF that's possible.

Glad I read this thread again. Gives me hope that intelligent and wonderful people will speak up and teach the idiots some... ah... er.. oh yeah!... intelligence!


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:32 PM

There is more to life than just "getting laid". Was it Janis Joplin who said she got to make love to 20,000 people a night when she sang on stage?

Yet another phrase whose author eludes me is this... "Bigots are like the pupil of an eye. The more light you shine on them the more closed they become". Quite sad really.

Ignorance must never become a sin. Ignorance can always be changed by education and learning. Ignorance, therefore, is not a crime. Hatred is though when used to harm innocent folks and those who support them.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 01 May 14 - 04:59 AM

@Gnu: "Just seems to me there are a pile of idiots......." Have you only just noticed that? How long have you been on Mudcat? (or any other internet forum for that matter!)(My tongue is very firmly in my cheek here!)

It's interesting how others react to GLBT people. At the weekend I went to a vernissage and the subject of the pictures gave a short resume of her life. Coming out to her father as M2F at the beginning of the 1980s was apparently no problem.......then she told him she was also a lesbian......That did not go down well!

Somewhere in the Bible there is something along the lines of,"we are all made in God's image". I've found this very useful when dealing with religious bigots. Unless, of course, they've got Ph.Ds in Theology and consequently lots of clever, evasive answers.

@Mauvepink: re the comment about bigots- On YouTube there's a video of Janis Ian performing 'Society's Child' in Brighton in 2011. What she tells in her introduction to the song illustrates the bigot problem perfectly. The trouble, as I see it, is that they dig themselves in in their personal bunkers and become unreachable for any form of discourse that contradicts and attempts to prise open their sad ignorance.

Must work more on my singing voice. If Louisa Jo K could do it then so can I!


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Subject: Lyr Add: E PLURIBUS UNUM
From: Ed T
Date: 01 May 14 - 05:56 AM

E Pluribus Unum

A Latin phrase that's kind of fun
It translates to 'Of Many, One'
It means though we are not the same
To this place our Fathers came
They came here so they could make
A better life for family sake
Now their children stand in their place
Hoping to be free of race
To be judged for what's within
And not by color of our skin
Worship where we wish to be
And be from hate forever free
Share our hearts with him or her
Regardless if of same gender
Black or White or mix of two
Christian, Muslim, atheist, Jew
Gay of straight or trans* or bi
Together we can touch the sky
And though it may sound kind of dumb
We're always 'E Pluribus Unum'

Anonymous Ghurl


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:25 AM

I once knew a chap who thought he was a tractor.....seriously :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Ed T
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:45 AM

"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character". (Quote by - Ralph Waldo Emerson)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:32 PM

People's choice of gender or sexual partner is basically none of my business.

Gnu my friend, I think you were much more polite than I would have been.

Funny though. I read a rant on Facebook today from a lady whose partner is another color. Two other women had dropped racist remarks to which she took offence--rightfully so--and she blocked them as friends or whatever one does on Facebook. Seems to be a world problem. Too many people with too much time and way-far too much to say about it all, whatever it all is.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: mauvepink
Date: 02 May 14 - 07:04 PM

I think E Pluribus Unum was fantastic. Thank you Ed

..and thanks, too, all other kind comments for here and in pm. I am grateful

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Ed T
Date: 02 May 14 - 08:36 PM

"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
William James 


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 14 - 08:49 PM

Ask Mr. Google about William James. Good read. Thanks Ed. Cool guy. Billy too.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:54 PM

Here is a specific question, about a word that surprised me the other day.

It is the word "non-binary,"
and it was NOT in the context of the Mudcat Poetry Corner.

A shopper was talking about clothing that was not lingerie,
that they were comfortable wearing,
and the idea was to avoid feminine/female-looking undergarments.
I hope I'm saying this right.
This shopper described themselves as "non-binary."

I just have trouble wrapping my head around that term;
but I do understand that a transgender person
would prefer not to wear conventional lingerie.
Thanks for taking my question seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:05 PM

Load of nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:33 PM

I rather like the term 'non-binary'. It points out that people don't fall into one of just two categories or definitions. That there are different kinds of sexuality and body perception/form. It allows for more flexibility.

As to buying underwear though, one doesn't need to talk about it or discuss it first, surely? One can wander round the shops or go online and choose whatever style one wants. There's no end of choice nowadays.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:37 PM

"Thanks for taking my question seriously."

Assuming you're not trolling, you didn't ask a question.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jos
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:43 PM

As for underwear, just think about what you want it for. Is it to support something, to control something, to hide something, to keep something warm, to make something look sleek or to make something look pretty ...
And buy accordingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:01 PM

The main problem is the language, and the need to nail things down with a concrete, inflexible definition. I have several transgender friends that I know of. For me, gender has little to do with my friendship. Other than being able to communicate with one another, I don't care.

Wear whatever the hell you want to wear. People who would care what another person wears are...we need a different word than "busybodies". We'd be better off seeing people as individuals instead of genders. Everybody's different.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:04 PM

All right, here's another attempt to make myself more clear.

What does "non-binary" mean when a person uses the word
to describe lifestyle/sexuality choices?
Eliza/Senoufou seems to understand the word AND my confusion.

Also unclear was that I was quoting an online review.
The shopper/consumer found a supportive undergarment
that did the function it was supposed to do
without looking like ladies' lingerie.

Thanks everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:32 PM

Not "either/or," not dichotomous? Dwelling [at varying points] on a gender continuum? Or not thinking in terms of male-female polarities at all?

I have some transgender friends who identify emphatically with one gender--it's just not the one whose equipment they were born with. Each would feel wounded if referred to as "they." On the other hand, I have friends who are a male-female couple, each of whom identifies as gay and prefers to be called "they." I love them all.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:35 PM

People who would care what another person wears are...we need a different word than "busybodies".

Assholes?


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:44 PM

In the past, people have been very concerned about categorising their fellows and putting them in pigeonholes and boxes. Those that didn't seem to 'fit' or conform provoked hostility and I would say a little fear.

Happily, these days things are changing. Unless someone is causing harm, I say they should just be who they want to be, dress as they wish, and lead their lives as they desire. What does it matter?

I like variety and find it interesting. Humans come in all shapes, sizes, colours and sexual orientation. It's fascinating.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 06:03 PM

What does "non-binary" mean when a person uses the word
to describe lifestyle/sexuality choices?


I'm pretty sure that gender identity is not a lifestyle/sexuality choice. I know that I never arrived at a point in my life where I had to choose what gender I wanted to be and I don't think anyone does, it's an innate thing. I assume that someone who identifies as non binary feels no strong affinity to one gender or the other or else sees themselves as being flexible - good for them, they get the best of both worlds.


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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 06:30 PM

Thanks for the clarification. I was pretty sure I understood "non-binary", but I was just guessing. Had to look it up. One definition I found was "not relating to, composed of, or involving just two things."

In this context, I'm taking it to mean that people don't see gender as an either/or thing. Maybe it's someone saying they have many female qualities, but also a few male ones and doesn't want to identify solely as one thing. I think that's actually most of us, because many qualities we assign to a specific gender just ends up that way because people believe it should be.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 28 November 1:28 PM EST

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