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Journal of Folk song society vol 1

GUEST,Julia L 19 Jun 12 - 08:07 PM
doc.tom 20 Jun 12 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 12 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 12 - 07:49 AM
maeve 20 Jun 12 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Julia L 20 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Jun 12 - 03:33 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Jun 12 - 03:38 PM
doc.tom 21 Jun 12 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 12 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 12 - 03:34 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Jun 12 - 05:12 PM
Artful Codger 21 Jun 12 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 22 Jun 12 - 12:26 PM
Steve Gardham 22 Jun 12 - 02:39 PM
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Subject: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 08:07 PM

Does anyone have a copy of the Journal of the Folk Song Society volume 1? All I have found online is the index. I am looking for a song that is noted to be on page 45 called "The Ripest of Apples". I have the lyrics and the tune but need the background info. It was allegedly collected in Portland Maine. There is another version in Sam Henry and Norman Hay lists it in his Ulster Airs, but I'd like to corroborate the Maine version.

Thanks for any help
Julia


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: doc.tom
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 02:46 AM

Julia - PM me and I'll send you a scan of the relevant page when I find it
TomB


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:15 AM

Julia L
The Ripest of Apples from Journal of the Folk-Song Society 1:2 (1900) p.45
"'Down East' coast song, from the neighbourhood of Portland, Maine"
Three footnotes on the text as follows:

'Soon'(verse 1) "markedly peculiar, pronounced not unlike the German 'dunn'."
'deep', 'find' (verse 2) and 'far' (verse 3) Strong accent, delling note"
'Boats (verse 2) pronounced in New England coast dialect to rhyme with French 'bottes'.

That's all there is I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 07:49 AM

Quick observation;`
Although the song given in The Journal is entitled 'The Ripest of Apples' (referred to elsewhere as ('Twenty-Eighteen) and has been given the Roud number (542) to suit that song, it apppears to be a version of 'Waly, Waly' with a chorus from 'Ripest' tacked on.
In the Journal it is included in a number of examples from a paper on Sailor Songs read before The Folk Song Society on Nov. 23rd 1899, by Frank Kidson, though there is no reference to what it was illustrating as far as I can see.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 07:51 AM

Julia- I'd love to have that song, if possible.

Maeve


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM

Jim- you are a star!
Tom- I'm not officially on mudcat (squirm) If you could email me the scan at julia at castlebay.net I'd be very grateful

Just for the record, the song appears listed in Norman Hay's Ulster Airs, a collection made by order of the BBC in the 1930's. According to David Byers, a musicologist from Belfast NI, one of Hay's sources was Sam Henry who collected the song in 1936, gives 2 verses but does not name a source (dang)

Maeve- I'll let you have it as soon as I untangle the knots *grin*

Thanks all
J


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:33 PM

The 'ripest of apples' verse occurs in several songs and is a floater/commonplace. However the other 2 verses form part of the broadside ballad 'I'm often drunk and seldom sober'. Sorry, Jim, can't see any connections with 'Waly, Waly'.


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:38 PM

On further searching the 2 verses are even closer to the related Irish song 'Carrickfergus', specifically Dominic Behan's 'The Kerry Boatman'.


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: doc.tom
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 03:24 AM

No need Julia - Jim's beaten me to it! He's posted all the info there is! Respect to Mr. Carroll - yet again.


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 04:43 AM

Steve,
This is the one I remember

The water is wide, I cannot swim over,
And neither have I wings to fly.
Give me a boat that can carry two,
And both shall cross, my love and I

A ship there is and it sails the sea,
It's loaded deep as deep can be.
But not as deep as the love I'm in,
And I can neither sing nor swim

Oh waly, waly, love is bonny
And it is a joy when it is new.
When love is old it waxes cold
And fades away like the morning dew.

(sorry for the garble - always the same before breakfast)

I've always known this as Waly Waly, though I agree entirely with your 'floater' comment - the Journal version seems to be 2 floater verses and a refrain.
I can see some connection with the somewhat enigmatic 'Carrickfergus', but no more than a 'floater' one

The Journal article (the paper given by Kidson) leaves the impression (though it is by no means clear) that the sung examples are by Society members
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 03:34 PM

as we are discussing the Journal of the Folk Song Society, it is highly likely that the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library will have a copy (!) and I am sure the librarians can help. www.efdss.org
Derek


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 05:12 PM

Derek, Tom offered to send a copy on the second posting, and I could easily do likewise. Apart from which Jim has already given chapter and verse.

Jim, the song 'The Water is Wide' which you give is indeed a collection of floaters and impossible to identify in terms of one other song unless you count it as a separate song on its own in which case it is probably unique.

The 'Ripest of Apples' above does indeed commence with the floater but the other 2 verses are very close to Dominic's version of Carrickfergus and if I was classifying or applying a Roud number I would classify it as a version of Carrickfergus based on the fact that two thirds of the fragment are definitely from that song. Hybrids like this are indeed difficult to classify.

'I'm often drunk' and 'Carrickfergus', although they each have their own autonomy, have most of their verses in common. Without the benefit of a close study of all versions of both I wouldn't like to theorise on which came first. The former is very common on broadsides all over Britain, the latter from oral tradition in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Artful Codger
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 07:43 PM

See this thread where Bruce Olson posted "The Ripest of Apples" from the JFSS vol. 1, #2, 1900, and Joe Offer posted the same from Sam Henry's Songs of the People. Full texts and tunes (in ABC) are provided for both songs--though not any source commentaries.

The "Waly Waly" song Jim referred to is also commonly known as "The Water Is Wide" (helping to distinguish it from the older Scottish song "O Waly Waly" [up the bank...]), and it consists entirely of floating verses, which greatly muddies the wide waters when discussing sources. In the first message of the WIW thread, you'll find a number of links to other threads on "The Water Is Wide" and its siblings (like "A Ship Came Sailing" and "Must I Go Bound").


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 12:26 PM

Steve, I don't deny what you say, it's just that I believe that this is why the VWML exists! And the more people who use it, appreciate its collections - the more are likely to join EFDSS to help support it financially, etc...
Derek


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Subject: RE: Journal of Folk song society vol 1
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 02:39 PM

Point taken, Derek, but people usually post here to get immediate help, and it's rarely it isn't forthcoming.

Whilst the VWML is a valuable resource for ongoing research, there are plenty of quick fixes online, not least of which is the VWML online.


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