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Nic Jones article in The Guardian

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Bonzo3legs 01 Jul 12 - 05:10 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jul 12 - 08:20 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 05:32 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jul 12 - 06:00 AM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Jul 12 - 06:52 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 02 Jul 12 - 06:59 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jul 12 - 07:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jul 12 - 07:44 AM
greg stephens 02 Jul 12 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 12 - 08:23 AM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 08:46 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jul 12 - 09:11 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 02 Jul 12 - 09:27 AM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 02 Jul 12 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Charles Macfarlane 02 Jul 12 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 02 Jul 12 - 10:21 AM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 02 Jul 12 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 02 Jul 12 - 11:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jul 12 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Charles Macfarlane 02 Jul 12 - 12:47 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,grumpy 02 Jul 12 - 03:00 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 03:40 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 12 - 03:45 PM
Bonzo3legs 02 Jul 12 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Charles Macfarlane 02 Jul 12 - 04:06 PM
Nigel Paterson 03 Jul 12 - 03:17 AM
Spleen Cringe 03 Jul 12 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Jul 12 - 04:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jul 12 - 04:45 AM
Brian Peters 03 Jul 12 - 04:50 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,henryp 03 Jul 12 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Jul 12 - 06:35 AM
GUEST 03 Jul 12 - 07:25 AM
Brian Peters 03 Jul 12 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Charles Macfarlane 03 Jul 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,henryp 03 Jul 12 - 01:53 PM
Nigel Paterson 05 Jul 12 - 03:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 05:10 PM

The "rules" invented by folk and journalist bigots were quite idiotic.

Irwin writes mainly drivel in my view.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 08:20 PM

Someone said to me in an e-mail once "I don't know why you bother trading insults with Steve Shaw ... he's a notorious nutter for picking fights." I don't any more; but how typical that he can't tell a genuine friendship between neighbours, with shared interests in a field in which they have both achieved some success, from a name-drop.

Why, how brave whoever-it-was that "someone" was! What a stupid thing thing to post, old chap. Dishonest too, I reckon! Get yer man to post his whinge here, why don't you. And the post I got sarky about was just about the most blatant name-drop and attempt to bathe in reflected glory I've seen for years. Just keep that stuff to yourself, even if it's true, then you won't embarrass either Nic or yourself.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 05:32 AM

Michael has known Nic for many years and is an old friend, Michael was a professional performer for many years in the earlier days of the revival, he was a good friend of Nic Jones and was also a very good friend of Peter Bellamy[ I believe Peter left him a concertina].


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 06:00 AM

Thanks for support, Dick. In main, I was for 30+ years a folk journo/critic for Times, Guardian, Folk Review &c, which main source of my acquaintanceships. Pete indeed one of my dearest friends ~~ constant visitors to one another's homes. In fact, re that concertina, I had permanently lent him a concertina as he wanted a D/A instrument, which he used on many of his records, was carried atop his coffin at his funeral, & which returned to me on his death ~ it is the white-bellowed one on my youtube channel.

Shaw is of course a famous eaten-up-by-envy-nik. I just ignore him these days, as advised by that previous correspondent I mentioned. Best thing, I find, is not even to read any posts with his name on. That way I avoid unnecessary irritation.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 06:27 AM

Best thing, I find, is not even to read any posts with his name on. That way I avoid unnecessary irritation."
that seems like good advice,Michael.
by the way I learned a song off one of your recordings, called The Tailor and the Teachest, a good song, thanks


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 06:52 AM

Can someone explain what "open tuning" is and how it differs from 'closed'(?) tuning?


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 06:59 AM

It means the strings are tuned into a pre-set chord, so that if you strum them all at once without any fingerstopping, it sounds a harmony rather than a dissonance. "Open" because they're usually based on open-5ths & 4ths, i.e. chords without 3rds in them, or else just one 3rd (usually higher rather than lower because otherwise it can muddy things). I've also heard it called "modal" tuning. I think slide-players use it a lot but am open to correction on that. It also sounds great with fingerpicking because you can set up a drone on the open (i.e. non-fingerstopped) strings.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 07:20 AM

Good luck with it Dick. It is also on my youtube channel & is a favourite of my wife Emma. I learnt it from Pete & Chris Coe, Tony Rose & Nic Jones [drift over?] old record Bandoggs. It is also in one of Roy Palmer's books.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 07:44 AM

The reason we use open tunings is that - the steel string acoustic is a weird instrument. Well guitars generally really.

John Williams once remarked that - acoustic playing is about how the note decays and dies - whilst electric playing is about how the note sustains.

So electric players, by and large - like to use blocked off notes and chords where they can control and form the sustain with their fingers.

Acoustic players - be it classical, flamenco, blues, folk - they will elect to to use an open string which resonates and creates its own space, whenever possible.

Most open tunings give you the low E string tuned down to a D. Adventurous souls like Marin Carthy, Nick Drake, Joni Mitchell like to use the E string tuned down to C. That's what the traddies never get. Martin, Nick and Joni - have much more in common with each other as musicians than you would believe - they are all really divergent thinkers - ignoring music theory and finding their own path. Think of the slides and thuds that you get with the Carthy guitar style - where does all that come from - broonzy, some Irish fiddler maybe. Totally eclectic.

The EADGBE had a sort of Cromwellian straightforwardness that open tunings lack. No guitarist should deny himself the pleasures of both.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:02 AM

Ian Carr is an interesting guitarist in that he uses conventional Spanish tuning but somehow finds enough drones and weird voicings to avoid that "Cromwellian straight forwardness" totally. (Nice phrase Big Al)


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:23 AM

Shaw is of course a famous eaten-up-by-envy-nik.

Ha. I love the arrogance behind the assumption that I'm jealous because you have friends that are, er, better than my friends. I remind you again: I choose not to trumpet (i.e, brag about) my own alliances to the world on the internet. But I am proud of having had dinner with Thora. She complained about the cheese being too ripe. OK if I just use her first name like that, is it? :-)


It was in 1969 by the way, but oh, how I love to hang on to it...


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:46 AM

Open tunings rely upon ringing strings and sympathetic vibration etc, they are very well suited to music that does not modulate far from the home key.
on certain keys on the guitar this can be achieved to a more limited extent in standard tuning, standard tuning is a very versatile tuning, it is particularly good for ragtime music and music that involves moving through different keys.
to be able to play competently in standard and open tunings is in my opinion the musical goal I aim for with the guitar.
PIERRE BENSUSAN has taken DADGAD and shown what can be achieved by a virtuoso guitarist.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:11 AM

I mainly encounter Steve on TheSession, where some regulars are appallingly pompous blowhards - they may play well for all I know, but their attitude is such that I'm never going to listen to them. In that company, Steve is an unpretentious breath of fresh air.

I once held the opposite end of a banner with Julie Christie at a demo.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:27 AM

I once played in a session with the above-named Pierre Bensusan. (OK, so I don't actually know him...) His name had been long familiar to me but I didn't recognise him by face. It was an Irish/Scottish music session in Edinburgh and I kept thinking Who's that brilliant, innovative guitarist who seems to know every twist & turn of the melodies before the rest of us even play them?

Oh, and I chatted to one of Johnny Depp's bodyguards once. Does that count? (Don't ask...)


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:38 AM

2It means the strings are tuned into a pre-set chord"
not entirely correct Bonnie,there are two open tunings like this DADF#AD DGDGBD,both of which are also popular with blues players
HOWEVER nic jones used a number of other tunings including cgcgcd, Martin carthy used dadeae but now uses a different one again, dadgad is popular too, as is dadgbd[DOUBLE DROP D].
if a player plays 5 string banjo the open chord tunings are very easy, there are another two banjo tunings cgcd[double c]and [sawmill]dgcd, both of which convert easily to guitar, but are not open chord tunings.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:57 AM

my old mate reckons one of our younger mates got very intimate with a now well known festival bill topping folk singer
at an after gig party in the early days of said artist's career....

.., oh and I got pestered & annoyed while trying to enjoy a few relaxing pints by a squalid old bore
who claimed he used to be The Clash's drug dealer...

And back in my early 20's Jenny Agutter sat opposite me on a train jouney to Bath
an made it very clear she fancied me even though she could see I was travelling with my girlfriend
- the dirty film star temptress...
[well she was a fit older woman, definitely a spitting image,
could have been her...???]


So anyone wanna insultingly challenge my show biz connections !!!???


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:02 AM

> The reason we use open tunings is that - the steel string acoustic is a weird instrument. Well guitars generally really.

Well, TBH that is really rather an unhelpful non-statement. There is nothing particularly weird about guitars whether steel, nylon, or gut strung and/or tuned open or standard.

> John Williams once remarked that - acoustic playing is about how the note decays and dies - whilst electric playing is about how the note sustains.

Yes, I think I can see what he's driving at.

> So electric players, by and large - like to use blocked off notes and chords where they can control and form the sustain with their fingers.

Well, I'm not really an electric player, but as a listener I don't think that's a very good description of Buddy Holly, Hank Marvin, Carlos Santana, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, or Andy Summers, to name a few that spring immediately to mind.

> Acoustic players - be it classical, flamenco, blues, folk - they will elect to to use an open string which resonates and creates its own space, whenever possible.

Again, this seems to me to completely wrong. By far the majority of players learn to play in standard, and rarely if ever play anything different, many not even getting as far as tuning the bass down to D. This point is discussed further below.

> Most open tunings give you the low E string tuned down to a D. Adventurous souls like Marin Carthy, Nick Drake, Joni Mitchell like to use the E string tuned down to C. That's what the traddies never get. Martin, Nick and Joni - have much more in common with each other as musicians than you would believe - they are all really divergent thinkers - ignoring music theory and finding their own path. Think of the slides and thuds that you get with the Carthy guitar style - where does all that come from - broonzy, some Irish fiddler maybe. Totally eclectic.

> The EADGBE had a sort of Cromwellian straightforwardness that open tunings lack. No guitarist should deny himself the pleasures of both.

There is a very good, solid, practical reason for the standard tuning's popularity. It's the tuning that gives the easiest and most makeable chord shapes for the greatest number of keys. In a former world of gut, now replaced by nylon, strings, both of which take some time to respond fully to changes in tension, it was necessary to choose a tuning that gave the most flexibility for the least amount of time spent adjusting the tuning.

This is true not just of guitars. When I suggested to a well-established fiddle player that a tune such as the Da Foula Shaalds should really be played in hardanger tuning, she agreed in principle, but said that, having only one fiddle, it took too long for the instrument to settle down after changing the tuning for it to be practicable to retune just for one or two tunes.

But to return to guitars, structural changes to allow the use of steel strings have also made a huge change in the responsiveness of the instruments to changes in tuning, and it now becomes more achievable, though practicability is still an issue, to change tuning when playing live. Alternative tunings usually drop, or sometimes raise, a string by no more than a tone, and, provided suitably-guaged and good quality strings are being used anyway, that's usually not too bad, though I still think that many guitarists seem to spend more time tuning than actually playing, but when a string is altered by more, as in my own favourite Open C where the bass is down two whole tones, strings tend to slap when tuned down or snap when tuned up, and then having a second guitar becomes desirable.

There was an hilarious moment in a local folk club when a local performer was retuning his guitar, gingerly, and, as it turned out, wisely, backing his face away from the instrument: "The guy who showed me this tuning warned me that it breaks a log of third strings!", and just as he got the words out, twang, his third string broke!

For Open C, I used a specially set-up Aria, with a high action and the beafiest set of D'Addario strings that I could find locally, but for a while now these have only gone to 0.59 for the bass whereas really I'd've liked 0.60 or heavier, because they still slapped and buzzed, as you can hear from the very informal recording here, which is capoed up to D, making the buzzing worse (this is intended to be heard as an example of string slap, not the excellence or otherwise of my playing, or how to use an open tuning - it happens to be the only recording of the tune I have, and was made in the kitchen the evening I wrote it, simply so I wouldn't forget what I'd written next day - I lost a good many moments of inspiration like that, so I got into the habit of having a portable tape machine handy whenever I was mucking around on an instrument; consequently, at the time, I had no idea that it would be the only recording of it that I would ever make):

Sally In The Woods

So you can see that even with steel strings retuning and setting up is still an issue that deters many from experimenting with open tunings. In some ways this a pity, because they can produce a very beautiful sound, but in other ways, they can be seen as quite limiting. You can make Open C sound wonderful in C, but even capoing it up to D, you lose sustain, and I wouldn't choose to play in, say, G on it, because I don't like the D chords in the tuning. For G, I'd choose Open G, which has very similar fingering anyway.

Open tunings are particularly good for pentatonic traditional material, although they are by no means limited to such material - I used to do both Bob Dylan's "Love Minus Zero / No Limit" and Mary Chapin Carpenter's "Stones In The Road" in Open C capoed up to D.

If anyone wishes to explore the delights of Open C, there is a tutorial on my website:

Open C Tutorial

To answer some other points, any idea that open tunings are in some way 'cheating' is rubbish. It's a question of judgement and good taste as to what sounds better for the material you play.

I disagree also with Nic's self-criticism. Many of us tend to see the faults in what we do rather than the positive things, and heaven knows as a player I have many more of the former than he, but wannabee rocker or not, his playing changed everything for everyone that followed, and that is one hell of an accomplishment, the more so when one considers how much of his career was so tragically lost, and how difficult it is to obtain his recordings from the early part of his career.

Nic, if ever read this, and you'll allow an unknown but well-wishing admirer of your earlier peformances to advise, don't beat yourself up - haven't you've gone through enough already? Just allow yourself to think it's great that you are back, just the same as your countless admirers do.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:21 AM

"John Williams once remarked that - acoustic playing is about how the note decays and dies
- whilst electric playing is about how the note sustains."


..as an entirely self taught by trial and error electric guitarist,

I'd have to say you just can't be that prescriptive...

The available vintage & modern amp & FX technology
provides far too many options and variables..

anything is possible !!!

That's why a lot of us collect far too many cheap used electric guitars and shed loads of amps & pedals..


It then becomes easy to keep spare instruments in various dedicated open tunings
set up for all kinds of playing purposes.

I'd suggest this is a 'norm' these days;
and perhaps something some older acoustic guitarists
who've spent the best part of half a century passionately devoted to despising electronic instruments
may not fully understand...???

btw, I rarely touch my acoustic guitar.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:39 AM

when nic refers to open tunings in the article he is not just referring to daf#ad dgdgbd
I believe these are some of what he used
Canadee-i-o: BbFBbFBbC (CGCGCD)
Humpback Whale: AEAEAA (CGCGCC)
Drowned Lovers, Farewell To The Gold, Barrack St, Little Pot Stove: CFCFAC (DGDGBD)
Planxty Davis: BF*BF*BC* (CGCGCD)
Flandyke Shore: CGCGCD
Courting Is A Pleasure - EbFBbFBbC


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:51 AM

I'll add.. when you have more than enough electric guitars
there's plenty of creative fun & inspiration to be had
experimenting/mucking about with substituting wound and unwound strings & gauges in all the 'wrong' places..

Sonic Youth are worth mentioning;
a band I'm not too keen on and my mrs positively can't stand.

A band acclaimed/notorious for multiple song specific 'invented' tunings
in quest of diverse sonic textures.


"The Sonic Youth Tuning Tutorial"
http://www.sonicyouth.com/mustang/tab/tuning.html


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 11:06 AM

At risk of being boring..

Extract fronm Wiki entry:

"Sonic Youth began using a variety of tunings more radical than nearly anything in rock music history.

Azerrad writes that early in their career,

[Sonic Youth] could only afford cheap guitars, and cheap guitars sounded like cheap guitars.
But with weird tunings or something jammed under a particular fret,
those humble instruments could sound rather amazing
– bang a drum stick on a cheap Japanese Stratocaster copy in the right tuning,
crank the amplifier to within an inch of its life,
and it will sound like church bells.
—Michael Azerrad, Our Band Could Be Your Life, pg. 243

The tunings were painstakingly developed by Moore and Ranaldo during the band's rehearsals;
Moore once reported that the odd tunings were an attempt to introduce new sounds:
"When you're playing in standard tuning all the time ... things sound pretty standard."[44]
Rather than re-tune for every song, Sonic Youth generally use a particular guitar for one or two songs,
and can take dozens of instruments on tour.
This can be the source of much trouble for the band,
as some songs rely on specific guitars that have been uniquely prepared."



Obviously bit extremely impractical for local pub band gigs, but there you go...


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 11:38 AM

I seem to have unwittingly upset Charles MacFarlane. I apologise Charles for any distress I may have caused you.

But can you really not see that Hank Marvin, Andy Summers, Carlos Santana - achieve their guitar sound by manipulation rather than merely letting the open guitar strings ring? Perhaps you need to give Hendrix's version of Red House a re-listen.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 12:47 PM

> I seem to have unwittingly upset Charles MacFarlane. I apologise Charles for any distress I may have caused you.

Of course you haven't upset me, so there was no need to apologise whether for real or in jest. I just disagree with you, that's all. As I say, I'm not really an electric player, though I do have an under-the-bridge pick-up on my accoustic which I sometimes plug-in and play with.

To remind ourselves of your original quote:

> So electric players, by and large - like to use blocked off notes and chords where they can control and form the sustain with their fingers.

I don't get the impression that electric players have a aural preference or otherwise for open or stopped notes, or open or standard tunings. I think most stick to standard because that's how they learnt and it requires a conscious effort of will to learn something different. That said, some players, mostly those who also played accoustic, such as John Martyn and Stephen Stills, did experiment with such alternative tunings.

>But can you really not see that Hank Marvin, Andy Summers, Carlos Santana - achieve their guitar sound by manipulation rather than merely letting the open guitar strings ring?

You yourself quoted John Williams' point that electric guitar is all about sustain! The relevance of his point here is that without the very long sustain that is acheivable with electric, you'd have little to manipulate, it would be much like playing an accoustic guitar. The sustain has been available for longer than the, predominantly electronic, wizardry that allows the manipulation of which you speak - the latter is mostly a fairly new thing, dating from as recently as the 60s, made possible by the advent of cheap electronics - and my guess is that without that sustain, most of the wizardry would never have been invented, because there would have been little point to it.

50s groups like The Shadows based their sound around Hank Marvin's wonderfully clean playing in numbers like Wonderful Land and The Quartermaster's Stores, though there is also a good example of the 'choppy' chord style of playing in Apache. And by the way they also used accoustic guitars in their numbers. Only later by the end of the 60s and start of the 70s do you start to hear radical manipulation, for example the earliest use of a fuzzed sound that I can recall was on Think For Yourself on The Beatles' Rubber Soul album.

So I think to equate electric playing with manipulation is to miss a fundamental point. Playing any instrument is primarily all about musicality. Particularly, to be a good electric player, you first have to be a clean player, because the guitar will pick up every fumble you make, whereas with an accoustic, you can get away with the odd dead note. Then, just as with any instrument, you have to be able to phrase your playing expressively, etc, etc - in other words, to play musically. No amount of electronic gadgetry can substitute for that. I don't deny that an important part of modern electric playing is learning to use the electronics, but it's definitely of distantly secondary importance to learning to play the basic instrument in a musical fashion.

> Perhaps you need to give Hendrix's version of Red House a re-listen.

I can just about remember it, but it's not one of the Hendrix tracks I kept when throwing out my vinyls. Perhaps you need to re-listen to All Along The Watchtower? Or Samba Pa Ti? There's what you'd call manipulation in both of these, but it's of secondary importance to the basic musicality of the playing.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 01:35 PM

no charles,
many players of other musics other than traditional play in closed positions, jazz is a good example and use standard tuning, because it is overall the bestand most versatile tuning for jazz chords modulation etc.
english irish scottish traditional music is mainly in 4 modes and does not modulate very much it is therefore suited to open tunings and ringing strings, doubling and trebling of first and fifth notes of chords, often having an ambiguity about the sound.
whereas jazz has a completely different approach, viz NICS COMMENT ABOUT DIS DISLEY.
jazz guitarists in the main have acompletely different harmonic approach, to players like carthy and jones


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:00 PM

Jazz guitarists use many different tunings, both open or closed.

Check out Joe Beck, Pat Metheny, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Peter Mazza, Deirdre Cartwright, Ralph Towner or John McLaughlin for a variety of tunings.

One of the most intriguing tunings is used by Stanley Jordan, all fourths - EADGCF.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:40 PM

the majority of jazz guitarists i have encountered use standard tuning, that does not mean that there are not a few who use different tunings, but they are a small minority.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:45 PM

quote wikipedia
Harmony

Jazz guitarists use their knowledge of harmony and jazz theory to create jazz chord "voicings," which emphasize the 3rd and 7th notes of the chord. Some more sophisticated chord voicings also include the 9th, 11th, and 13th notes of the chord. In some modern jazz styles, dominant 7th chords in a tune may contain altered 9ths (either flattened by a semitone, which is called a "flat 9th", or sharpened by a semitone, which is called a "sharp 9th"); 11ths (sharpened by a semitone, which is called a "sharp 11th"); 13ths (typically flattened by a semitone, which is called a "flat 13th").

Jazz guitarists need to learn about a range of different chords, including major 7th, major 6th, minor 7th, minor/major 7th, dominant 7th, diminished, half-diminished, and augmented chords. As well, they need to learn about chord transformations (e.g., altered chords, such as "alt dominant chords" described above), chord substitutions, and re-harmonization techniques. Some jazz guitarists use their knowledge of jazz scales and chords to provide a walking bass-style accompaniment.

Jazz guitarists learn to perform these chords over the range of different chord progressions used in jazz, such as the II-V-I progression, the jazz-style blues progression, the minor jazz-style blues form, the "rhythm changes" progression, and the variety of chord progressions used in jazz ballads, and jazz standards. Guitarists may also learn to use the chord types, strumming styles, and effects pedals (e.g., chorus effect or fuzzbox) used in 1970s-era jazz-Latin, jazz-funk, and jazz-rock fusion music.
Melody

Jazz guitarists integrate the basic building blocks of scales and arpeggio patterns into balanced rhythmic and melodic phrases that make up a cohesive solo. Jazz guitarists often try to imbue their melodic phrasing with the sense of natural breathing and legato phrasing used by horn players such as saxophone players. As well, a jazz guitarists' solo improvisations have to have a rhythmic drive and "timefeel" that creates a sense of "swing" and "groove." The most experienced jazz guitarists learn to play with different "timefeels" such as playing "ahead of the beat" or "behind the beat," to create or release tension.

Another aspect of the jazz guitar style is the use of stylistically appropriate ornaments, such as grace notes, slides, and muted notes. Each sub-genre or era of jazz has different ornaments that are part of the style of that sub-genre or era. Jazz guitarists usually learn the appropriate ornamenting styles by listening to prominent recordings from a given style or jazz era. Some jazz guitarists also borrow ornamentation techniques from other jazz instruments, such as Wes Montgomery's borrowing of playing melodies in parallel octaves, which is a jazz piano technique. Jazz guitarists also have to learn how to add in passing tones, use "guide tones" and chord tones from the chord progression to structure their improvisations.

In the 1970s and 1980s, with jazz-rock fusion guitar playing, jazz guitarists incorporated rock guitar soloing approaches, such as riff-based soloing and usage of pentatonic and blues scale patterns. Some guitarists used Jimi Hendrix-influenced distortion and wah-wah effects to get a sustained, heavy tone, or even used rapid-fire guitar shredding techniques, such as tapping and tremolo bar bending. Guitarist Al Di Meola, who started his career with Return to Forever in 1974, was one of the first guitarists to perform in a "shred" style, a technique later used in rock and heavy metal playing. Di Meola used alternate-picking to perform very rapid sequences of notes in his solos.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:46 PM

A study of Jeff Beck's antics on a Strat would not go amiss, he's in a class of his own!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 04:06 PM

> From: Good Soldier Schweik
>
> no charles,

Well, yes, because you then go on to reinforce some of the points I've made up thread!

> many players of other musics other than traditional play in closed positions, jazz is a good example and use standard tuning, ...

Yes but ...

> ... because it is overall the bestand most versatile tuning for jazz chords modulation etc.

... not particularly because they favour the sound of closed finger positions as opposed to open strings.

> english irish scottish traditional music is mainly in 4 modes and does not modulate very much it is therefore suited to open tunings and ringing strings, doubling and trebling of first and fifth notes of chords, often having an ambiguity about the sound.

Exactly. As I pointed out above, open tunings are particularly suited to such traditional material.

> jazz guitarists in the main have acompletely different harmonic approach, to players like carthy and jones

Yes, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that - certainly not myself, at any rate.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 03:17 AM

The essential purpose of the article that begat this thread was to underscore the fact that Nic Jones will be performing some live gigs. Something that should be celebrated & recognised for the achievement that it is, is becoming increasingly lost & buried in the ensuing 'debate'. By comparison, the tunings, the styles, even, dare I say it, the article itself, pail into insignificance when one considers what Nic & Julia have had to endure since his accident. The fact that Nic is still with us is nothing short of a miracle. The Doctors quite literally had to rebuild his shattered body, but Nic's long-term recovery is due almost entirely to the love & devotion of his beloved Wife, Julia. I've known Nic for more than fifty years, friends with a shared love of Music.
            Celebrate Nic's return...celebrate his voice...celebrate his musical achievements...celebrate his Life...everything else is of little consequence,
                        Most Sincerely,
                                              Nigel Paterson.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 03:59 AM

I'll second the other Nigel's post!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:28 AM

Sorry, but I'm still no wiser about open tunings. Thanks to everyone who tried to explain to a musical dunce like me. I'll just have to resign myself to never understanding musical theory.

I wonder if Quantum Physics is any easier ... ?


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:45 AM

Sorry Shimrod. Basically - its just the three chord trick, with a few deep notes and strage harmonies not available in normal tuning. For me that is.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:50 AM

"Celebrate Nic's return"

Yes indeed. Got so carried away with defending 80s / 90s folk that I neglected to mention that seeing Nic's photo staring out of the pages of the morning paper was the best thing that's happened at my breakfast table in a long time.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM

Yes indeed from me too, Nigel. Sorry I got carried away by that odd person whose hobby appears to be wind-up contentiousness.

Wonder what strange satisfaction he can get from that as a pastime!

But honour to dear Nic, in spades. And to dear Julia likewise!

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:31 AM

Charles - Hank Marvin and The Shadows played Quatermasster's Stores! It was the B-side of Apache.

Quatermass was the popular BBC science fiction series of the time.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:35 AM

Yes, great to see Nic Jones back and very best wishes for his new career!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 07:25 AM

Brian Peters said: "Got so carried away with defending 80s / 90s folk that I neglected to mention that seeing Nic's photo staring out of the pages of the morning paper was the best thing that's happened at my breakfast table in a long time."

Here's another one to enjoy with your cornflakes then, Brian.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 07:40 AM

Lovely cover pic!

I prefer Co-op own brand fake Shreddies myself.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:31 AM

> From: GUEST,henryp
>
> Charles - Hank Marvin and The Shadows played Quatermasster's Stores! It was the B-side of Apache.
>
> Quatermass was the popular BBC science fiction series of the time.

Originally the tune was called The Quatermaster's Stores - it's a pre-existing army number which they covered. A Quartermaster is an army rank whose responsibilities are housing (I think), logistics, and stores, as in a verse of the marching song If You Want To Find The Colonel ...

"If you want to find the Quartermaster
I know where he is (repeat twice);
If you want to find the Quartermaster
I know where he is;
He's drinking all the company's rum"

... Which actually has a similar-ish tune to The Quartermas(s)ter's Stores.

Apache

"B-side: "Quatermasster's Stores" (Trad: arr Bill Shepherd)"

&

"Record producer Norrie Paramor preferred the flip side, an instrumental of the army song "The Quartermaster's Stores", now called "The Quatermasster's Stores" after the TV series Quatermass."

(My Italics)

So yes, you are right, that's what The Shadows called it as a cheap pun, but I think you can understand that many, in fact probably most, people still think of the tune with its original spelling.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 01:53 PM

The Shadows had a liking for cheap puns. They also released Alice in Sunderland and Stars fell on Stockton. Hank Brian Marvin was born in Newcastle upon Tyne - but his parents knew him as Brian Robson Rankin.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones article in The Guardian
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:06 AM

I've lost sight of Nic again...if I stand on tiptoes, I can see the headstock of a Fylde guitar...he might just be on the other end of that (-:


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