A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 12:52 PM

In what reality would every reader equally value every author for all the same reasons?

You may mark me down as a negative. It is a fact of maths I place zero value on folk club revival chantey authenticity. For the student of naval science, it's a clunker. A Regency dance group would be time better spent, but not by much.

If one highly values folk club revival shanties, the results will be different of course.

And Whall has an authorship & original copyright claim in his foreword. He did in fact own the songs that followed as far as the publishing industry goes. Typical for the medium.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 12:27 PM

IMO llOYD did very little DAMAGE compared to folk song collector Peter kennedy, a man who pissed off some of his sources and who dubbed himself on to field recordings without permission, and who thought he owned the traditional songs.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 10:50 AM

As lloyds reputation as a scholar is diminshed, so is his overall reputation.
Sharp altered manuscripts, at the time it was felt necessary to do so to get them published, the result was a positive, the songs became printed circulated in schools the repertoire was expanded and people sang the songs
Lloyd altered songs expanded the repertoire and got revival singers to sing songs that would not have otherwise been song.
ContinualLy harping on his weaknesses as a scholar is highlighting, his weaknesses not talking about his positives, that is FACT.

Steve says '''There are plenty of people who would rather have the truth.
is this a suggestion that i do not want the truth,
I am aware of Lloyds scholastic weakness, and as you suggest a lot of other people are too.
Brian, I have at no point mentioned Marson.
I believe criticisms of Sharp and Baring Gould and Lloyd should be seen in the context of their times, and in a holistic manner.
What I see on this forum and so far on Face book on this subject is mainly negative about Lloyd.
The pursuit of scholastic honesty,without holistic perspective is a negative force.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 05:39 AM

I consider it negative to continually find the negatives in Lloyds scholarship, to harp on about his tampering, Sharp and more so Baring Gould did a lot of tampering with texts. but without Sharp in particular we would not have such a big REPERTOIRE

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 05:06 AM

What positives are there in destroying Lloyds reputation as a scholar?,

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Sep 23 - 12:07 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9vS36h8oxQ
WEIRD? I rather like it

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Sep 23 - 12:02 PM

I cannot locate the Wyndham-Read version of 'Black Ball Line' with which Gibb reopened this thread is so weird that I'm inclined to agree it might have been mis-transcribed.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Sep 23 - 06:08 AM

Gibb,
>>Reidler<< [sic] I'm always getting that backwards. All apologies and it will happen again. I promise.

Neither seen nor heard one bad word about the author as a person. Nothing at all to match the tone of your post. An all around sterling individual… or maybe the Antichrist, for all I know… or care.

I've heard parts of two shanty lectures. Standard issue, no opera, nothing special. I knew the Maritime Work Song thread would do Wagner when his time came. Little surprise then Piratical Debauchery, Homesick Sailors, and Nautical Rhythms: The Influence of Sea Shanties on Classical Music should turn up on its own merit. What else is there on that subject?

...people not discussing Catholic Romance language-speaking flautists?… you lost me completely there.

What do "them" and "their" refer to?
Too much thread drift for poor old Lloyd. See here: New Chanties Documentary

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 11:04 PM

>>Neither did the sailors on the Gazela call them "shanties." Their 2400+ year histories and traditions are not about African-Americans, cotton screwers or the Gulf of Mexico.<<

What do "them" and "their" refer to?

>>Reidler<< [sic]

Could you please explain to everyone why you have been pounding on this poor undergraduate thesis-writer (Riedler) for several years, ever since you got a bug in your bonnet about people not discussing Catholic Romance language-speaking flautists? The frequency with which you mention her name seems only slightly behind your mention of "TikTok," "Wellerman," and "Naval Science." Yet, I'm confident that most if not all people here have no idea whom you're referring to when you do so.

Was some secondary-sourced background write-up narrative of the history of chanties in the bachelor's thesis about "The Influence of Sea Shanties on Classical Music," by this young woman from Singapore who is a scholar of opera, the primary thing you chance-encountered when you started this journey, and you have been reacting to it ever since? Did you two have an exchange on Reddit or something where she said, "OK, Boomer"? Did you tell her she should change her major to a HARD STEM field?

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 03:32 PM

No worries, Phil, we all do it!

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 02:02 PM

***Oh the irony. The above was me.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 02:00 PM

RJM: I never said it, that was somebody else....

From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 11:24 PM
Wellerman therEfore is helping to keep the tradition alive even though[ according to Phil d'Conch it has nothing to do with naval sciEnce
While not decrieng Naval Science, keeping the tradition alive is very important

Dick, wellll... I sure thought I was replying to you at the time. I tend to do that with a mystery "guest" and you in the same thread. My bad, if the above post was not yours.

Whomever it be's, the authentic/traditional/working "sea chanty/shanty" label still fits English folk club and pop repitoire about as well as it fits Howe! Hissa! or The Complaynt of Scotland (the latter an iomramh, iorram, iram, iurram, joram, juram or jurram or... anything at all but English!) Neither did the sailors on the Gazela call them "shanties." Their 2400+ year histories and traditions are not about African-Americans, cotton screwers or the Gulf of Mexico.

Hard Naval Science is from an entirely different planet Earth than Hugill, Whall, Lloyd, Gibb, Reidler et al.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Reinhard
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 10:32 AM

There is a detailed treatment of this song, including Scroggie's full text

... which I only added today, together with information about a bunch of recordings from my record collection that weren't listed yet.

And Scroggie's verses are already in the Digital Tradition, as TARWATH2.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM

Sorry, I did not identify myself when making the last post.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 10:18 AM

There is a detailed treatment of this song, including Scroggie's full text, here:
https://mainlynorfolk.info/lloyd/songs/farewelltotarwathie.html

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 04:29 AM

Attributed to George Scroggie near Aberdeen in or around 1850, this song was popularized by Ewan MacColl and A.L. Lloyd. Lloyd credits the song to Scroggie in the liner notes for his album Leviathan, saying of it:

    The stereotype of the oldtime whalemen is a hairychested ring-tailed roarer, hard worker, hard drinker, hard fighter. No doubt the description fitted many of them; nevertheless they often showed a strong liking for gentle meditative songs. Perhaps alone among all the songs on this record, Farewell to Tarwathie was made not by a whaleman, but by a miller, George Scroggie of Federate, near Aberdeen, around the middle of the 19th century. The tune is an old favourite, best known in connection with the song called "Green Bushes".

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 03:54 AM

'Farewell to Tawathie' did it originate as a poem ?and was it set to music by A. L. Lloyd?

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Sep 23 - 03:15 AM

Whoever said that the folk song revival is a continuance of tradition?

Dick, to open this most recent bump, and with a nod to TikTok and Wellerman on top.quote
I never said it, that was somebody else

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 06:47 PM

Not much substance here, just a remark:

I've noticed "Doodle [sic] Let Me Go" has become (recently, I think) more popular on the eastern side of the Atlantic and in the cyberspace.

I suppose the circa 2019 film _The Lighthouse_ contributed a little bit to that. (Funny enough, I suspect the makers had a look at Hugill, or [even more likely] a performer who had, for that.)

But Lloyd's rendition popularized it, I guess. Lloyd appears to have used Cecil Sharp _English Folk-Chanteys_ (1914) as his source. After the first verse, the lyrics are Lloyd's. Lloyd also changes the form by creating solo couplets (whereas the versions in Sharp, Terry, and Hugill have just one-line solos).

You can roughly tell who might have gotten it from the Lloyd lineage if they sing couplets, and if they do a little snap rhythm (Lloyd's addition, not in the books) on the word "yellow" in the chorus.

Anyway, my remark is that it strikes me as funny hearing so many people sing about "yaller girls." It's such a trope in minstrel songs and 19th c African American songs (though I don't know the exact extent of cross-influence between those spheres on this particular matter), that it's just kind of odd to hear it belted with such passion.

The interpretation I would hazard is that Lloyd's text lays on the narrative of "whoring down in Peru" so thickly that singers, if they care to think what a yellow gal is, suppose it means some quaint name for a "Spanish" prostitute. Or something like that. The cultural distance of "creoles down in Peru," perhaps, makes it politically more palatable than the alternative, a colorist term of US Black people. Concurrently, they are not based in the American cultural environment enough to know it as a the dated but still used term among some Black Americans (usually within their community only) and the connotations it has and had.

Mind, I don't have a strong complaint about people singing it, per se, but I figure that if they knew it better they might be a little less enthusiastic!

And no, Texans and their state song are not the same ;)

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 04:55 PM

Whoever said that the folk song revival is a continuance of tradition?

Dick, to open this most recent bump, and with a nod to TikTok and Wellerman on top.

I know folk clubs, lecture halls, video games, TikTok &c &c each have unique traditions of their very own. Some do more 'production value' than others than others but all of it is arts & entertainment. And I too do not find the mutual admiration bubbles, that so often comes with each, all that helpful neither.

In plain English, fiction is not fact and LLoyd, folk clubs, lecture halls &c &c are neither chanties as work song nor hard naval science. Not that there is anything wrong with either art or science being what they are. It's just the typical, one-label-fits-all, glossary that was never really in keeping with the many "traditions." Until that situation improves, (not holding my breath) asterisks are free, and that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 04:16 PM

For those of us interested in traditional song, this is quite important.
QUOTE
It would be better to say for those of us interested in the scholarship of traditional song
i am primarily intersted in singing songs including traditional songs Because the song appeals to me,likewise there are some traditional songs,eg little sir hugh, or drink old england dry, or fathom the bowl, that do not interest me
I agree that songs that appeal to me, i might subsequently wish to get more correct info so scholarship for me is of secondary importance however i agree that scholarship and comments about songs should be accurate, that is why for many years i have gone to other sources other than Bert lloyd for info on shanties and sea songs, sources such as Chris Roche

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 01:33 PM

And I'm just not reading all that much disagreement here on that front.

Obviously not, because the main posters here are people who have independently researched different areas of Lloyd's repertoire and drawn similar conclusions. Calling it a 'mutual appreciation society' isn't very helpful.

If any so-called tradition requires a formal, regulated performance environment to continue...

Whoever said that the folk song revival is a continuance of tradition? Or that all performance environments were as regulated as the Singers' Club? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 09:44 AM

The big deal in his case is not really the matter of differing opinions. What we're dissecting here are individual cases, in order to learn just how far his interventions went. For those of us interested in traditional song, this is quite important.

And I'm just not reading all that much disagreement here on that front. This most recent bump is a mutual admiration society v. Dick on ends justifying means and how disclaimers are a good thing.

As for Policy, believing local restrictions improved selection, variety and choice of maritime work song in folk clubs is not math or science based. Political Science... maybe. If any so-called tradition requires a formal, regulated performance environment to continue, it needs more academic disclaimers than a gen-u-wine LLoyd sailor song.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 08:26 AM

"Bert was most adept at constructing convincing fake traditional songs at the drop of a hat."

Uh-oh....

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 05:14 AM

This reminds me a touch of MacColl's Critics Group insistence that singers should restrict their repertoires to their authentic geographies of origin - whilst himself being a Salfordian wrapped in ancestral Scottish heritage, singing songs from right across the realm, and a prolific writer of new material to boot.

As in so many fields, the high priests are above the covenants required of the flock...!

There's much truth in this, but I also suspect that there was plenty of creative thinking going on in order to justify given song selections, in the same way that singers in 'theme nights' will dream up ingenious arguments to excuse a song of dubious relevance to the theme. MacColl could at least claim authenticity in respect of his Scots and Lancashire songs, and also anything he'd written himself that emanated from his own cultural experience. Lloyd could arguably have done the same for his maritime songs, although there is a very interesting comment in Peggy Seeger's memoir to the effect that Bert was most adept at constructing convincing fake traditional songs at the drop of a hat, to subvert the dictates of the Policy.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 04:50 AM

If, and only if, Leadbelly was "Policy."

... A "Policy" of exclusion is about the only way to manufacture the false consensus nobody needs.

The point is that the Policy was adopted at the Singers' Club in order to persuade recent recruits from the skiffle movement to look closer to home than America for material. This was successful, in that it spawned a second revival of English folk song and music in the 1950s and 60s, but for which a lot of us wouldn't be where we are now. It broadened, rather than narrowed, the available repertoire, so although superficially exclusionary it led to an expansion in people's horizons. I don't recognise a 'false consensus'.

Anyway, we were as you say discussing Lloyd in this thread. The big deal in his case is not really the matter of differing opinions. What we're dissecting here are individual cases, in order to learn just how far his interventions went. For those of us interested in traditional song, this is quite important.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 02:35 PM

...But for that, perhaps we'd all be singing Leadbelly songs to this day...

If, and only if, Leadbelly was "Policy." Meanwhile, American folkie Harry Belafonte (RIP) once claimed most American Jews learned Hava Nagila from him.

There is minor argument here about what LLoyd did. The big deal is in the opinions on same. A "Policy" of exclusion is about the only way to manufacture the false consensus nobody needs.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 01:29 PM

[Georgina *BOYES*, accursed auto-correct!]

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 12:12 PM

Happy to believe that too, Brian. One of the people I know who complained about it has themself cultivated a predominantly authentic home-regional repertoire, but they were still conscious of the contradiction of being held to standards not always adhered to amongst those by which they were set.

As above, it's not an attack. I only raised it by analogy with the apparent divergence - highlighted in Georgina Boyd's excellent piece - between Lloyd's philosophical assertions and personal approach, and I'm happy to defend that comparison. It's about the curious exemptions that some influential figures allow themselves but don't extend to others.

RJM, I think most people would accept the general usage of the word 'close' to describe E.M. & A.L.L.'s working relationship over an extended period.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for the link to your essay, Georgina. I found it most interesting.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 09:49 AM

good post, Brian

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 09:46 AM

I'm happy to accept a correction that that approach was more to do with the Singers Club, but I've heard direct testimony from a few who took part about this requirement, and how onerous it was.

According to Peggy (who I definitely believe), it was indeed a Singers' Club policy. However, many other clubs followed and became 'Policy Clubs'. It might have seemed onerous to some, but it was the Policy that persuaded people like Sandra Kerr and Lou Killen to look for songs from their own localities, and fuelled an interest in English folk song more generally. But for that, perhaps we'd all be singing Leadbelly songs to this day...

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 08:02 AM

Actually Bert and Ewan fell out with one anther for a while, and at one time you could not be friends with both of them, so much for closeness

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 06:47 AM

Black Acorn, I am well informed on the policy of the singers club, I have a good friend who was booked there twice and became a resident.Jim Carrolls posts also corroborate what i have been told

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 06:27 AM

it is not a question of better it is a question of being accurate
.I think you are right, a lot of us went and sought out material from the uk, but it was not exclusively down to MacColl,in fact it was the idea of Lomax
Cyril Tawney had a different approach he went to singers and said i have found this song which would really suit you, a more subtle approach and imo more successful.
A number of people including Bert encouraged younger singers to look up our own geographical british isles material [including Ireland]of songs, instead of singing american material.
I thanked Gibb and think his post was very good.
Black Acorn scoring points is negative and does not contribute to good overall discussion

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:50 AM

Hi RJM, as per my comments on Lloyd, I'm a big fan of MacColl and his contribution to the movement (I even have songs of his in my own formative repertoire), but as with Lloyd it's important not to overlook the problems and contradictions of their practice.

I'm happy to accept a correction that that approach was more to do with the Singers Club, but I've heard direct testimony from a few who took part about this requirement, and how onerous it was. It hardly seems better to me, that it 'only' happened in one setting but not the other - especially as the club would have reached (and probably affected the practice of) far more participants (performers and audiences) over the years than the smaller, tighter group.

As for the relevance - you don't need me to remind you of the closeness in relationship between MacColl and Lloyd. I'm attempting to reflect upon parallels between key figures of the revival, as part of a broader reflection upon the attitudes and tendencies of these luminaries. I'm not bashing either of them, nor - indeed - Robert Graves, in my earlier post.

Since you seem keen to return to the central point, and since you insisted upon evidence to underpin assertions, it would be great to hear your thoughts on Gibb's tremendously insightful contribution above.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:37 AM

Can we stick to lloyd and his scholarship, and lack of
.MacColl and the rules at the singers club are irrelevant

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 03:41 AM

This reminds me a touch of MacColl's Critics Group insistence that singers should restrict their repertoires to their authentic geographies of origin - whilst himself being a Salfordian wrapped in ancestral Scottish heritage, singing songs from right across the realm, and a prolific writer of new material to boot.

As in so many fields, the high priests are above the covenants required of the flock...! quote Black Acorn
According to Jim Carroll, who knew MacColl   well, that was not the case, it only applied to people singing at the singers club, neither did the rule apply to writing new songs.
MacColl was born in Salford, his mother was Scottish, According to wiki his parents were Scottish, WIKI IS NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE.
A TYPICAL BIT OF MACCOLL BASHING AND HAS NO CONNECTION WITH LLOYD AND SEA SHANTIES OR LLOYDS SCHOLARSHIP OR LACK OF SCHOLARSHIP

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 02:34 AM

Thank you Georgina, I have The Imagined Village but haven't yet had a chance to read it; I *have* just read your brilliant essay on The Singing Englishman.

One of the things that strongly strikes me from that, is the contradiction between Lloyd's assertion that true folk song could only be produced in narrow social conditions, in a time already passed; and his own irrepressible, unaccountable practice of tinkering, revision and 'improvement'.

This reminds me a touch of MacColl's Critics Group insistence that singers should restrict their repertoires to their authentic geographies of origin - whilst himself being a Salfordian wrapped in ancestral Scottish heritage, singing songs from right across the realm, and a prolific writer of new material to boot.

As in so many fields, the high priests are above the covenants required of the flock...!

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 03:02 PM

Can I also thank Gibb for that tour de force regarding 'Wild Goose', which married an impressive depth of detail with some telling application of logic.

There have been several other interesting comments lately in this thread. It's reminded me why Mudcat is always worth returning to - at its best you can find a level of informed discussion hard to find elsewhere.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 02:58 PM

Do Dave Harker or Georgina Boyes interrogate Lloyd in Fakesong or the Imagined Village, respectively?

Harker's chapter on Lloyd, 'the one that got away' takes him to task mostly for adopting the main tenets of the Sharpian folk song consensus (a fair comment), for inaccurate analysis of North-Eastern working class culture, for flaws in his 'industrial song' concept, and for being the wrong kind of Marxist (Harker was SWP, Lloyd CPGB). Ironically, considering the book's title, Harker doesn't level the accusation of fakery at Lloyd at all, except in the case of 'The Coal Owner and the Pitman's Wife', the broadside text of which Lloyd apparently tampered with. And, like everyone else who's looked at it, he finds implausible Lloyd's linking of 'The Cutty Wren' with the Peasants' Revolt.

Georgina's online commentary on 'The Singing Englishman' is very useful.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,guestD
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 01:15 PM

There has been a lot of emphasis concerning where Lloyd sourced such unique & different lyrics & melodies. I would point to the two very distinct and mostly unrelated versions Wm Dorerflinger collected from Dick Maitland and Patrick Tayluer at Sailor's Snug Harbor in Staten Island late in the 1930s and early 40s. I am speaking here of The Leaving of Liverpool. How is it that the two versions are so dramatically different?
Chantey categories are absolutely necessary in educating the general public least they should confuse heaving and hauling. Accurate generalizations certainly can be made for capstan work vs. halyards. Less so with windlass and capstan. This technique was already in place at Mystic when I started in June of 1980 and to my knowledge still exists today.
In the 1980s and 90s I had conversations with both Lou Killen and Martin Carthy (Mystic), likewise with Martin Wyndham-Read within the last ten years, concerning the influence of Bert Lloyd upon them. All said he was generous and passionate in sharing his knowledge and repertoire; not one commented on inaccurate sources or bibliographies.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 10:06 AM

Yes, BOUK, I did write quite a bit about Lloyd in "The Imagined Village" - the book's still available via No Masters website if you want to judge the whole thing.

For ease of access, however, you might want to look at the Introduction to "The Singing Englishman" that I wrote at Rod Stradling's for the book's republication in Musical Tradition. http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/tse_int.htm

From memory too, I think Dave Harker devoted a chapter of "Fakesong" to Lloyd. I think he subtitled it "The One that Got Away".

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 09:07 AM

Great commentary from Gibb and BlackAcornUK. Thanks for the posts.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:57 AM

There seems to be several scholars working on Lloyd's creativity at the moment. Most of them know about each other but someone perhaps needs to co-ordinate matters to avoid unnecessary duplication and time.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:54 AM

BAUK
This has recently been covered on a similar thread on Facebook on the Traditional Ballads blog. Those in the know stated there that there was nothing at Goldsmiths that would enlighten us further. No field notes etc.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:25 AM

Other quick thoughts -

Has anyone delved into Lloyd's archive (held at Goldsmiths, University of London - alongside the MacColl/Seeger and Alan Bush collections), in order to see if there are glimpses of his thought-process/motivations/modus operandi there?

Do Dave Harker or Georgina Boyes interrogate Lloyd in Fakesong or the Imagined Village, respectively?

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:48 AM

Thanks Gibb.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:41 AM

Gibb,

Thank you for your full and comprehensive reply.
I'd like to continue our conversation, there's still some points I want to make. But first, I think should read through the previous thread. If the points I want to make have not already been covered, I'll come back to this thread. My apologies if you've had to repeat yourself already.
You've been very generous with your time, thanks once again.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:25 AM

A really interesting thread, with amazing detail in that last post, Gibb.

FWIW, personally, I hugely appreciate Lloyd as a galvanising/creative figure within the revival; he brought countless amazing songs to attention (albeit with not-infrequent embroidery & alteration), and platformed/mentored some of the finest singers of the era.

However, his scholarship is plainly lax, and far beyond shanties his habit of taking liberties with songs to create particular atmospheres or aesthetics is well known... There's a great US Library of Congress blog that looks at the addition of the Shakespearean 'Take no scorn to wear the horn' verse to Hal an Tow... To my mind, it seems likely that Lloyd also encouraged Mike Waterson to add the 'Since man was first created' opening verse. They also clipped the verses and tweaked the chorus from the Helston source material.
https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2017/05/hal-an-tow-some-intriguing-evidence-on-a-may-song/

With a forensic eye over his work, some of his writings would even seem to see him stray into the terrain of the bulls***er or fantasist.

To re-emphasise - folk is a living medium, and it's normal to make small, and sometimes large adjustments - Nic Jones did this all the time (look at Annan Water) but crucially was open about it.

However, Lloyd making brazen false claims about provenance etc simply isn't on; and, where this faulty scholarship proliferates incorrect assumptions into wider historical (mis)understanding (as highlighted above) this is plainly something that needs to be identified, articulated and shared in order to strengthen/repair the foundations of future scholarship.

The comparisons with Peter Kennedy are interesting; I also see Lloyd as a much more benevolent figure - and someone who, as noted above, sought to lift up others, rather than to do them over.

Perhaps his over-reaching comes from a somewhat complacent/self-satisfied sense of his 'unique affinity' for, and insights into, the form... A more extreme example of that in a different field could be those like Gerald Gardiner and Dion Fortune, who I don't doubt believed that they'd unlocked secret wisdom, but really were just making stuff up much of the time.

When pondering Lloyd's motivations/mindset, I also think back to the quotes attributed to Robert Graves as he received criticism for the highly questionable historical detail of The White Goddess - he tetchily emphasised his 'poetic' interpretation of myth and ritual, beyond 'mere scholars'…