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BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:35 PM "the median household income is $50k, the median family income is $61k." If one person is in a household do they count him or her as a family? Probably not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:52 PM Doesn't much matter, Jack... If we are looking at the bottom half of income earners then $50K would be like hitting the lottery... Again: When we look exclusively at the bottom 50% we find that most of them fall into that 125% of poverty or less... Only those at the very top of the bottom half might be slightly out of that 125%... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:05 AM Poverty Tracker. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:27 AM Here we are, talking about 'wealth' and 'riches'..and all you can think about is MONEY!!...No wonder we're poor! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:53 AM Nice link Bruce. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Penny S. Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:05 AM This map shows where people are in poverty in the UK. Maybe only temporary - the foodbank sites show that it's often change in benefits that leaves people with no income and empty cupboards. Foodbank map Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:17 AM I'm very sorry Jack the Sailor, to have unwittingly intruded on a thread intended only for comments about financial matters in the US. Please therefore ignore my postings, and I withdraw from the discussion. Kindest regards, Eliza. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:39 AM Bogus? Sorry, Bobert, that number came from the chart that JtS posted a link to. And it is in the ballpark with the link that Bruce posted. As to your source, I went to the Charlotte Observer on line(which you could have done, and should have done) and dug out and read all the articles about income and poverty that I could find back to Sept 2011, and I could find nothing like what you claimed was there. Not only that, in the articles I read, they tended to cite the $50k number. So... Anyway, I am sorry Eliza got chased off, because she tried to focus on the larger issue--which has to do with the fact that most of the world's resources go to benefit the "First Worlders" half of whom Bobert seems to think are dangerously impoverished. Anyway, JtS, I don't know how the census bureau differentiates between "household" and "family" , and I can't look into it today. I've looked at more detailed breakout of the census low income numbers though, and I noticed the curious fact that many of those low income households have no wage earner and average less than one member. It makes me think that the numbers are based on income tax records. That may mean that many of the "poor" households are poor because they don't have much taxable income-keep in mind that annuities and pensions may be only partially taxed, so the part that shows up on income tax records is only part of a larger income. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:16 AM That chart is accurate... Just different stats... That chart includes *all* incomes... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:47 AM Stim, That is a larger issue. But it has nothing to do with the poll in question. Bobert. I'm losing you. Are you saying that half of the people in the whole country are below 1.25% of the poverty line or half of the people in the lower 50% of incomes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 11:49 AM Gosh..ever heard this before?????? Check any number of posts by myself, Little Hawk, pdq, 999, akenaton, Songwronger, number 6, and a few others, that I can't recall off the top of my head..... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:29 PM If we use the premise that we are all created equal then we should share equally in the bounties of this world. However in this world many cats become fat eating someone else's share of the pie. The cat of course will say that he deserves to become fat at the cost of others, because he has bigger teeth and sharper claws! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Charley Noble Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:34 PM It's fun to work on holidays, or when the day is done; Why should they pay us overtime for having so much fun? For having so much fun my boys, for having so much fun -- Pay overtime would be a crime for having so much fun. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:52 PM Part of the problem with poverty figures is that exactly how poverty is measured is based on I think a 50-year-old formula in the USA. Poverty - World Bank The complexity of the measurement itself is difficult. ##################################### As to the thread title, deserve implies they actually did something to become wealthy. However, once a family or extended family has more than enough for its needs, what real good is the rest? Stop playboys and playgirls from manipulating stock markets and fewer people will be driven into poverty. Force the SEC to do its job. Force the FBI to get the lead out and do their jobs. Seems like lotsa rich folks get away with bad shit and nothing happens to them. Be rich and get caught with cocaine and ya get weekend community service. Be poor and get caught with a half-ounce of weed and yer busted. No country can afford to have rich people when there are poor people in that country. (As for the wise-ass who's about to say "If the guy's so poor what's he doing with a half oz of weed", his friend from the middle class gave it to him for his birthday.) ############################################ Look at prison populations and their demographic makeup. Find me some rich people in there. Hell, find me some of the 1% in there. I'd love to read about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:53 PM ...another re-occurring theme!!!!!! Think and enjoy....I would think! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM "On January 1, 2008 more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States were in prison or jail.[13][14] In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole). In 2008 the breakdown for adults under correctional control was as follows: one out of 18 men, one in 89 women, one in 11 African-Americans (9.2 percent), one in 27 Latinos (3.7 percent), and one in 45 Caucasians (2.2 percent). Crime rates have declined by about 25 percent from 1988-2008.[15] 70% of prisoners in the United States are non-whites.[16] In recent decades the U.S. has experienced a surge in its prison population, quadrupling since 1980, partially as a result of mandatory sentencing that came about during the "war on drugs." Violent crime and property crime have declined since the early 1990s.[17]" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM That was me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:09 PM So what have we concluded so far? That the OP title is fairly meaningless because "rich" is a once a relative, loaded and somewhat meaningless term and we don't know exactly what the question the survey asked was? That a high number of Americans (19-50%) are at 125% of the poverty line or less? That there are people in the world poorer than the poorest American? Anything else? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM No, Jack... For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count... Their income isn't reflected in the median income... Just the bottom half of earned income divided by the number of people in the bottom half comes out to, according to the "Charlotte Observer" a little over $26,000 a year per family of four in the bottom half... That $26,000 is actually less than the 125% of poverty but given that you have some folks who make a little more and other less that the 125% is a fairly accurate number for 1/2 of American households... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM "For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count." That seems to me to be a confusing way to put it. But I don't work as an editor for the Charlotte Observer. So who am I to say? Lets get back to the topic. So you are saying that half (50%) of half (50%) which equals about one quarter (25%) of "wage earners" are below the poverty line? That kind of clears up the confusion for me. It is also in accord with the government statistics some of us had posted. So we all agree that.... A high number of Americans (19-25%) are at 125% of the poverty line or less? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM Nope, not 1/2 of 1/2 but 1/2 of whole population which means 1/2 the entire population... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:44 PM Jack the Sailor: "So what have we concluded so far?" Well, taking a look at Bobert's post...apparently NOTHING! BTW, Bobert, I got your CD..just got in,..haven't listened yet..I'll sound you, after I do. Regards..You hopeless Party guy! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:50 PM "Nope, not 1/2 of 1/2 but 1/2 of whole population which means 1/2 the entire population." Show me where I am wrong. "For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count." The top half is half. The bottom half is the other half. Half of the bottom half is a quarter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:52 PM Are you figuring it out, still..out loud?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:11 PM "Out loud?" It is text on a computer screen. What is wrong with you? LOL!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:15 PM I give up, Jack... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:38 PM NPR article. From today. 1/2 of households make 50 k or more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Wesley S Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM Ry Cooders' - "No Banker Left Behind" My telephone rang one evening, my buddy called for me Said the bankers are all leavin', you better come round and see It started revelation, they robbed the nation blind, They're all down at the station, no banker left behind. No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. They were all down at the station, no banker left behind Well the bankers called a meetin', to the whitehouse they went one day They was going to call one the president, in a quiet and a sociable way The afternoon was sunny and the weather it was fine They counted all our money and no banker was left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. They were all down at the white house, no banker was left behind Well I hear the whistle blowin, it plays a happy tune The conductor is calling "all abort", we'll be leavin soon With champagne and shrimp cocktails and that's not all you'll find There's a billion dollar bonus and no banker left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. They were all down at the station, no banker left behind No banker, no banker, no banker could I find. When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM I'll try to find the article, Jack... You obviously don't get it... It's not about a median income for 50% of the population... It is about the median income of only those in the bottom half... When you put the top half in it brings the median income up because some people make millions... There are no millionaires in the bottom half... Like I said, "you don't get it"... I'll see if I can find the date it was published and go from there... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:31 PM Jack the Sailor: ""Out loud?" It is text on a computer screen. What is wrong with you? LOL!!" So loud..MY EYES ARE GETTING BLURRY!!!!....my ears are already ringing, but that's not from you...so, you're off the hook! Waving GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM My brain is gettin' blurry trying to explain something that seemed so easy for me to understand in the article but impossible to explain to folks who usually get stuff... B for Bobert B for Bobert w/blurry brain (Leave it alone GfinS...) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM Bobert, I think you are explaining what you read well enough. But you do seem a bit blurry about the implications. I think you have made your point. You don't have to look for the article for my sake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:26 PM Implication: We have one shit load of Americans living below, at or barely over poverty... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:27 PM Absolutely! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:41 PM After having reconsidered Bobert's recent post, and after having done a bunch of googling, even without his article, I've figured out what he is talking about--(well, I still don't actually get his point), but he is referring "relative poverty", which is an income level that, depending on who is figuring it, is set at 50-60% of the median income, and is more of a register of income inequality, and a restriction of choices, rather than material suffering (i.e.-Jimmy's family went Skiing in Vail, we went snow tubing on the Golf Course). |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:54 PM Wrong, Stim... I am talking about abject poverty... You don't see these folks in the mall... You don't see these people driving cars... I live in the deep south and can take you to areas where these people live... It's like 50-60 years ago... Of course, righties say it doesn't exist... It exists and it is massive... I mean, I can take ya'll to areas in any major city where folks are warehoused... Tens of millions of folks are hidden in the US... So other folks think, "Hey, they don't exist"... I was a social worker for a good portion of my life... I've seen the hiding places and they aren't pretty... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jul 12 - 11:44 PM Bobert: "Wrong, Stim... I am talking about abject poverty..." Moral poverty??....or intellectual poverty?.......oh yeah, you're all talkin' about MONEY!!!...just like rich folks, huh? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:06 AM I don't disagree with you, Bobert. I've been around a while. Long enough to have noticed there aren't many people, right or left, who really have very much commitment to dealing with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM With more and more folks, who used to consider themselves middle class, falling into poverty it is America's #1 problem right now... And it need to be corrected or we are not going to maintain any level of civilization... Crime rates, after a 2 decade drop, are back on the rise... There isn't a day that goes by here in the Charlotte, NC area where there isn't at least 1 murder and usually more than 1... We need to address this... And soon... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM Hey, Bobert, the South doesn't have a monopoly on "abject poverty" - Appalachia continues from West VA right on up thru Pennsylvania & into the Adirondacks of northern New York. I'll match you one on one for folks with no jobs, no cars, no homes, no money, little or no food, and no hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM 10-4, Greg... I used to live in Wes Ginny (20 years to be exact)in one of the mountain hollers... But really, you can go to almost any large urban area, North or South and find areas densely populated by poor people... It's not just a Southern thing, fir sure... And with 30 years of union busting it's happening more and more to middle class America from sea to polluted sea... BTW, ya'll... Thanks to the US banking crash of '08, real estate values have dropped so much that the net per capita wealth of Canadians has surpassed those of citizens here in the US... And so Romney thinks we need less regs on our banks??? Mentally ill man... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:48 AM Yes, Sawz, there are those of us who don't think being rich is a badge of honor, more a badge of shame when it short changes others, not paying taxes to improve the public good. Being rich is overrated, those with bucks who are sick in mind and body, selfish, greedy, insensitive to those who are less fortunate. We have to remember in the polling data that a great number of Americans don't believe that "Evolution" exists, being in thrall to their preachers, rabbis and imams. From what I can gather, the red flags are being offered by some Mudcat people in the form of so-called Conservative values, reactionary at their core, indicate a hidden agenda, they perhaps, working for certain law enforcement agencies or think tanks to influence policy. It pays to be suspicious and skeptical, these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:55 AM If anything turns people toward "conservative values", it could very well be discussions like this one, that toss around all the old cliches about money, wealth, and the rich like they actually mean something. Bobert, when you speak from your own experience a social worker, nothing is more compelling, but when you toss around numbers from magazine articles, you're on thin ice. As for you, Frank--I am surprised that, after years of watching Eisenhower, Nixon, and Johnson, Bush, etc using taxes to build up the Military/Industrial complex, culminating in post 9/11 Patriot Act America, that you didn't have a little trouble with the idea of "paying taxes to improve the public good". The unfortunate reality is that if we live in the most affluent country in the world, it's because capitalists made it happen. The working people helped, but as someone pointed out, "Unless you've got money to pay them, workers won't generally work for you." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:11 PM America needs another Jacob Riis about now. I expect the damned Republicans would claim he photo-shopped the pictures. Thing is, the same scenes would be 'still-enacted' (to be reenacted would require that the cycle of poverty came to a stop at some point, but it hasn't). The notion that anyone deserves riches or poverty results from an under indulgence in thinking. Interesting in terms of its other purpose though which seems to be that regardless your economic status, somehow you deserve it, implying that you had choices to begin with. However, even people who had choices can wake up finding themselves with none. The following from Wikipedia "History The world's first food bank was the St. Mary's Food Bank Alliance in Arizona, founded by John van Hengel in 1967. [4] In 1965, while volunteering for a community dining room, van Hengel learned that grocery stores often had to throw away food that had damaged packaging or was near expiration. He started collecting that food for the dining room but soon had too much for that one program. He thought of creating a central location from which any agency can receive donations. Described as a classic case of "if you build it they will come", [7] the first food bank was created with the help of St. Mary's Basilica.[8] Food banks quickly spread across the United States. By 1976, the precursor to Feeding America was established. Their network of 200+ foodbanks provides support for 90,000 projects. Other large networks exist such as Ample Harvest which lists some 33,000 food pantries that can utilise overproduction of fresh produce. Following the 2008 worldwide financial crisis, there has been an increase in the number of folk requesting help from food banks. According to a 2012 UCLA Center for Health Policy Research study, there has been a 40% increase in demand for Californian food banks since 2008, with even married couples who both work sometimes requiring the aid of food banks. [9] In the 1980s, Food banks began to appear all around the world. The first european Food bank was founded in France during 1984. Food banks were soon established in South America, Africa and Asia. In 2007, The Global FoodBanking Network was formned. [4]" The meaning of the above is quite clear: Governments do not have the ability (will?) to feed their own people. And they won't until such time as money is redirected from weapons expenditure. ##################################### It amazes me that the hang-up being touted by the Democrats about Romney is whether or not he was the operating CEO of Bain for a few years when he said he's wasn't. The greater issue should be his off-shore banking practices. Why vote for a man who values money more than he values his country or its citizens? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM Hey Stim, I never said that the Military Industrial Complex improved the public good. The solution is that taxes need to be paid for the public good, not for corporate greed whether military or otherwise. Besides, eg: Blackwater is privatized. The corporate lobbyists need to be regulated by responsible government agencies. Why should Wall Street run our government? Capitalists are destroying the most affluent and freedom loving country in the world by turning our industrial base into a gambling casino and outsourcing jobs. The working people were the reason that capitalists can skim off the top of their efforts. The workers are the makers, the capitalists (Wall Street) are the takers. That's the unfortunate reality. Not paying taxes for a decent government insures that the capitalists will continue to rob the workers. Your reality is different from mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:49 PM Besides, the Military Industrial Complex is mostly run by corporations such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing and the like who are not government agencies. The wars that the taxpayer pays for are mostly privatized, these days. Motives are war are so private companies can invade countries and extract resources such as oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM Guest, 999: "Why vote for a man who values money more than he values his country or its citizens?" ...and judging from a lot of the posts in the room...Who gives a fuck about an electorate, who cares more about money than honesty and integrity...and who act like a bunch of seals at Marine World, waiting, clapping and barking to be tossed another anchovie...except what they are waiting, clapping and barking for is just another lie, from their preferred candidate. It's so fucking stupid, that it is a parody of American stupidity..or maybe a laboratory experiment of what people act like when they watch the 'news' media....pointing the blame away, from those who own the 'news' media, and own the candidates....and yes, that means the faux liberal guy we have in office, now! Demand better,..and make your voice heard.....or shut up, you don't have much to say, anyway.......(we already heard it on the 'news'). might as well watch the 'Cartoon Channel'. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:12 PM 999, The last addendum in the last post was NOT directed at you, personally. Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,Stim Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:47 PM For good or ill, it is capital that made this country affluent. Capitalism isn't evil, but it is amoral, which means that to prevent harm, it needs to regulated, and way more than we do now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: pdq Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:13 PM "The world's first food bank was the St. Mary's Food Bank Alliance in Arizona..." How does this statement support the leftist concept that the People are hopeless without the government? The job of caring for the bottom 5% once fell to churches. The Athiest Left moved the responsibility to the government (them, of course). |
