Question about musical notation

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 12:28 AM

To return the thread back to on-topic (I titled it that because I was confused about the notation on the NTSM sheet music I have; I just made a backing track for NTSM through GarageBand after the exporting the piece of sheet music as an MIDI through Sibelius and uploaded it to an Itunes playlist I have where I keep backing tracks.)

I'm going to sing along to that track and see how I sound. For some reason, I find this song much easier to sing than the Italian Street Song.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:54 AM

You did, however, say "Please open a new thread in the BS section, if you insist on continuing the discussion." When I consulted our on-site rhetorician, I was advised that it is an equivalent instruction.

The rhetorician also said that, even though many of your statements were debatable, that it wasn't necessary to further clarify my point.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 05:03 AM

"Take your other issues elsewhere!" are not my words; I will not fail to answer any message directed at me, or concerning my responsibility. The reasons why this thread should be abandoned are not only that it is shifting, but that the various parts of it shed an unnecessarily negative light on each other.

This will be my last message on this thread (except possibly one saying "See my thread BS:..."), but while I am at it:

Stim, Leeneia is famous for her sympathetic words to virtually everyone who describes a sad fate. If however you insist on words like "insult" and "mocking disdain", you are making it very difficult for her. She does the same to me, but I am trained in rhetorics, and not so easy to insult anyway.

Best leave it as it is, Stim, in your own interest. You have stated your point. If you are willing to accept my sympathy, I gladly offer it herewith.

Happy are those who know about their abilities and use them, instead of regretting not to have more.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:52 AM

I am a person with disabilities, and am the parent of a person with disabilities who, with great effort and support, sings in a group like the one that Leeneia described so rudely and offensively, in this thread.

People who have speech impairments are often and maybe even generally assumed to be "retarded", "mentaily handicapped" and unfit, simply because it is difficult for them to make certain sounds. Leeneia was offensive and inappropriate, and the mocking disdain that she expressed devalued an effort that is important therapeutically, and also very difficult work for speech impaired singers.

I was also annoyed that Leeneia couldn't be bothered to respond or clarify her comments.

I believe that I am entitled to respond in this thread to things that are said in this thread,
And so, if I read them correctly, I am a bit bothered at both Grishka and Tatie Boggle, who seem to think that responding to something that I find personally offensive in this thread is thread drift and should be taken elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:26 PM

Whose thread is it and what is it about? This is not thread drift, it's continental shift! As above, take your other issues elsewhere!

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 04:34 PM

I see, Stim. Leeneia is a lady, I am (or try to be) a gentleman, for your info.

Oscar Wilde sometimes took the liberty to be intentionally rude for sake of witticism, that is not Leeneia's problem. She is a brave fighter for womankind and the underprivileged, and can sometimes be a nice lady.

Please open a new thread in the BS section, if you insist on continuing the discussion. I sincerely hope that this thread falls into oblivion, its role being more than fulfilled.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 01:32 PM

My comment about "gentleman" was directed at Leeneia, not at you, Grishka.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:51 AM

Although it is not my habit to repeat myself, it may be necessary to point out once more that Leeneia is misquoting me, though Morwen seems to have understood me alright:

My posting in question says and implies that grossly misleading thread titles go at the expense of the readers' goodwill, however minimally and however ample in supply. This is a law of nature, not an unwritten Mudcat rule. Nothing about chatting, nothing about any others of Morwen's posts. Criticism: yes, about this single point.

Morwen has acted accordingly, and although the elves (the muddy ones) did not change the title, damage to her reputation has been averted. Well done.

Anything else is Leeneia's problem.

If there is more discussion about gentlemanliness and criticism, it might be the best idea to start a new thread - perhaps BS.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:05 AM

... whereas a true lady may be as critical as she chooses? Is that your idea of gender mainstreaming? (I assume, Stim, that you are a lady as well.)

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:52 PM

Oscar Wilde said that "A true gentleman is never unintentionally rude." which somehow seems appropriate to mention at this time.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:57 PM

Leeneia, I think Morwen understood my post more correctly.

And we shouldn't have to toil over our posts as if they were a PhD thesis, which must be near-perfect from the first word.

Exactly what I am saying. Correct what has to be corrected, but not every spelling mistake or other minor slip.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:39 PM

Hello, all. I'm glad to see that Morwen is back. Telling her that she is playing 'tricks' and that she should write 'prudently and economically' (which implies that she is wasting the time of more important people) really made me angry.

And we shouldn't have to toil over our posts as if they were a PhD thesis, which must be near-perfect from the first word.

I tried for a long time to think of a gracious way to deal with Grishka's criticism, but I gave up by morning.


'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:11 AM

Morwen, well said.

Stim, I was jumping to the side of Leeneia, not in front of her. Sometimes I try to help solving misunderstandings. Mistakes in the choice of the right words are absolutely normal for everybody; correcting them (if necessary) is good practice. In my opinion, the words insult and humiliation refer to quite a different context.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:48 AM

*title*.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 09:15 PM

Grishka, I do appreciate your trying to smooth things over, but I'd prefer to hear from Leeneia.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:57 PM

Could a moderator change the tile to Grishka's suggestion?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:18 PM

It's a song with quite a wide range (i.e low notes pretty low, and high ones pretty high. Your low notes were in fact better than the high ones. But I'd agree with Don and others, if you can get some vocal coaching so that you can extend your range little by little. Singing scales up and down is a good way to do that too. Anyway, don't let any negative posts here put you off!

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:16 PM

If I may, for a change, jump to the side of the ladies:

There are persons who for physiological or mental reasons cannot control their singing at all, beyond repair. Mental here refers to the hearing system, so it must not be mixed with intellectual performance, let alone any insult.

Morwen is obviously none of these persons, there is nothing wrong with her hearing and physiology. Jack (17 Jul 12 - 07:32 AM) was not actually suggesting anything like that, but the word "uncontrolled" certainly implies a negative diagnosis, which is not helpful in this case. My vague guess is that he was short-tempered for other reasons. --

I must correct my misspelling of "Adah's solo (Morwen singing)", which was completely unintentional and hopefully not Freudian.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:46 PM

Sorry for misidentifying you, Morwen. No offense intended. Leeneia, did you see my comment at all?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:44 PM

Leenia, it is not my intention to humiliate anyone. On the contrary, I would like Morwen to profit from our advice.

I am neither objecting against anyone chatting nor postulating unwritten rules; as you rightly point out, this would not be my office, if I wanted to.

I was just observing that "Question about musical notation" is something else than "Who wants to chat with Morwen?", so that readers may feel decieved. Actually, as you well know, I enjoy a chat from time to time, with you and with Morwen and with others, but I would prefer to decide about that myself; I think many other readers feel the same.

Therefore, if the title were changed to "Ahab's solo (Morwen singing)", we would all be helped. Better still, the two threads should be joined, so that new advisors may read what was written before on the same topic. (It is the rare case that all posters essentially agree.)

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:26 AM

Grishka, I enjoy chatting with Morwen, and I don't appreciate your attempt to humiliate her. Besides, the Mudcat has moderators whose job it is to police the posts.

Pretending that there are all sorts of unwritten rules which the victim has violated, and which everyone but the victim knows about is a bully's trick.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 11:33 PM

Don's advice is good advice from someone who can be trusted. But if Morwen's parents can't afford voice lessons, or if they worry about taking time from her studies, then a choir at school might work. School choir should be free, and she's already there, so no travel time is lost.

Morwen, I was a very hard-working student in high school. Second period, I was in the Girls' Glee Club. We sang beautiful music - Bach and Mendelssohn, among others. I don't think I could have made it without the relaxation and joy of singing every morning.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 03:29 PM

This thread should be merged with Morwen's other thread essentally on the same topic, but titled adequately. The current title is grossly misleading and can easily be viewed as hijacking people's attention, which may lead to short-tempered reactions such as Jack's.

Morwen, you do not need such tricks, since you get quite a lot of attention anyway. Please use it prudently and economically, then we'll all be happy.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 02:06 PM

GUEST's post at 22 Jul 12 - 01:18 p.m. just above is well worth heeding. Taking at least a few voice lessons from a good teacher is the best investment that someone who aspires to be a singer can make.

A good teacher will instruct you in correct breath support, which is very important for several reasons. And he or she will also help you with pitch control and such extremely important considerations as singing with a relaxed jaw and open throat.

I know several singers of folk songs who shunned voice teachers because they were afraid they would wind up sounding like an opera singer (as if it were that easy!!), or that it would ruin their "natural style" (which consisted of singing off-pitch a lot and with a tight throat). Eventually some of them wound up not being able to sing at all because they had essentially ruined their voices. Nodes on their vocal cords, chronic hoarseness, inability to hit or hold a specific pitch.

I took some voice lessons even before I became interesting in folk music. I don't sound like an opera singer. And I've had a fifty year long professional career singing folk songs and ballads, and my singing voice is still strong and healthy.

Consider it a good investment. It will solve a lot of problems for you in the beginning, and in the long run, it will save your voice.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 01:18 PM

If you have the slightest aspiration to being a singer the best you can do is invest in at least a little coaching. Knowing your vocal comfort zone in musical terms and knowing how to extend it without strain is doing yourself and everybody you sing to a favour, whatever genre. And leeniea: If your throat is sore, you're singing wrongly, not too much. (And coaching will enable you to learn how to put throat into your voice for heavy rock purposes).

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 01:22 PM

Hello, Morwen. Thanks for the information about Ahan and the playing cards, etc.

Once, years ago, I met a famous tenor from Wales. He was coming to town for Welsh Heritage Week, and it was my job to pick him up at the airport. On the way, I mentioned that I wished I could sing better, and he said, "The best advice I can give you is to join a regular choral group."

I did that, ahd I must say that is the best advice he could have given me. My singing muscles got stronger, I could sing for a longer time, I mastered new kinds of music, and I learned useful techniques.

I think it would be good for you, as well. Is there a choir in your school that you could join?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 05:12 AM

Hi...ME
You were seated(?)   
your recording arrangements aren't doing you any favors.
How old are you ?
Dont stop singing and try easier things to start with..
Best wishes
Tim

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:31 AM

Thanks, DTG!

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:33 AM

One of your high notes did nasty things to my netbook speakers! I think a lowering may help to protect your voice - I am neither a good singer or critic but you did sound a little strained up the top and you definitely don't want to damage it this early in your career!

Good luck and I hope you see this as constructive

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:34 AM

Of course, the movie doesn't have Adah, so they gave the song to the male lead (Nelson Eddy).

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:32 AM

@Leeneia: In the stage play, this song is a solo for a woman (Adah, the slave lover of Etienne Grandet, the show's villain), who has been cast aside for the aristocratic, Italian heroine. It's a melancholy piece, sung as she's looking in a deck of cards, trying to foretell her future.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:25 AM

Why does everyone assume I'm a man?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 06:24 AM

GUEST Stim, I'm a woman.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:00 PM

Leeneia-Jack's comment, while a bit rough, is not unfair. Morwen needs to develop his pitch, timbre, and phrasing before he's able to master a song this difficult. His determination should be applauded though, because in the end, that's what will lead him to success.

Your comments, however, are insensitive, offensive and just plain wrong.

First off, the term "mentally handicapped" isn't a term that is used to describe any group of disabilities, It's just an insult. Second off, in many cases, the problem that PWDs have with voice control has to do with muscle spasticity, not intellectual achievement. We all have encountered people with wonderful singing voices who are not strong intellectually.
Lastly, for people who are dealing with impairments of any kind, even meager results come as the result of great effort. It is likely that the performance was given as an opportunity for friends and family to be supportive of this effort, and your disdain rather misses the point.

As the parent of a child who struggles both with singing and with unfair labels, I suggest that the real handicap is in your way of thinking about this.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:47 AM

"wildly uncontrolled" is not correct or helpful, Jack. If you want to know what wildly controlled is like, listen to a group of mentally-handicapped people sing. I've heard that, and while I understand their desire to sing, the sound was nowhere near the tune.

Morwen, your throat was sore and rough when you sang that. It's not good for your throat to sing when it's sore. You should wait and let it heal. Drinking lukewarm water would help, according to my friend Anne, who sings soprano in a symphony chorus.

I listened to Nelso Eddy sing this song on YouTube. It's a difficult, showy, opera-singer piece. I'm not surprised it was hard for you.

Have you given any thought to joining a choral group?

By the way, I think Nelson Eddy is absolutely clobbering the poor song. The way he does it, we think, "Boy, he got a powerful voice!" rather than thinking, "Boy, that was a seductive, sexy song!"

Clearly his method worked in 1935, but I know I'd prefer it soft and persuasive.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:32 AM

I think somebody in another thread suggested you should join a society for performing musicals - you have a strong but wildly uncontrolled voice, and they'd help you get it working more predictably.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:15 AM

Selections of this song appear to be on YouTube. That would be the best way to check on the range as done by others.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,JohnnyBeezer
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:08 AM

Hi,two points regarding the video if I may.......
Firstly, in the absence of a metronome, try counting in your head or use your hand on your knee counting off the beats.
Secondly, try to regulate your breathing to the song passage, it will help to strengthen your voice on the note, particularly where you 'jump' from low to high notes.
Good luck.

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 05:54 AM

Does anyone know where I can get a backing for the Victor Herbert song?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:20 AM

I'm looking for a backing for "Neath The Southern Moon" by Victor Herbert. Any comments on the singing?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:19 AM

GUEST, Paul, that actually doesn't sound like the Herbert song (from "Naughty Marietta.")

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:17 AM

Thanks. Anyone can tell me when the intro is?

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:51 AM

Where can I get a backing track for "Neath The Southern Moon?"

Try here

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:40 AM

Thanks? Anyone have comments on the video? (And where can I get a backing track for "Neath The Southern Moon?" I really need to find my metronome.)

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: BlueJay
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:33 AM

I'm not exactly a music professor, and read music painfully, at best. But the notes above and below the staff are extensions of the staff. Since the lowest note of the treble staff is an E, the space note just below that is a D. The line note just below that is a C, in fact middle C on the piano. When you go down a bit further, you have to use the bass clef staff. Likewise, since the top line of the treble staff is F, the space above that is a G, and the line above that is an A. Hope this helps. Regards, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:16 AM

Okay, another admission; I also chose this song because a) I just plain love it and b) the other role I'd like to play, other than Clementina, is Adah.

Subject: Question about musical notation
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:11 AM

I found the sheet music for Adah's solo, "Neath The Southern Moon" from Naughty Marietta online and just printed it out because I want to learn to sing it in order to improve my low notes. All I really need is a pianist or some sort of accompaniment and a metronome. One part of the musical notation is puzzling me right now. At "I cannot- dare not know!" some of the notes are written below the staff, and some are written in the staff. Does that mean you have to move from below the staff to above the staff when singing this? (According to my friend, the lowest note in this song is low G, my lowest note.)

Here's what I sound like singing it acapella: Neath The Southern Moon acapella. Anyone want to comment? I picked it so I could try and improve my lower range.